The Healer Double Standard

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

I miss Heavensward healing. You had to stance dance to do damage. This really helped alleviate the boredom of being able to heal everything (On WHM) with only medica 2 and OGCD skills :(

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Amen, sister.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

That's kind of the problem don't you think that the Job that you should be having fun HEALING with is more interesting when doing damage than the actual job? If they overhauled the healers it means they had to have increased the content in which healing is actually more of a necessity. At least that is my current belief until I actually see the new content and experience it I cannot say either way which is why I'm saying all the doomsaying and complaining is putting the cart before the horse. Yeah you might even be making educated guesses but in the end thats exactly what it is educated guessing there's no statistical data to back it up until the content and changes go live.

Instead all any of you do is make a new complaint thread daily over the same exact thing then the same twenty people respond to it another twenty or so just look at it and shake their head and the rest just ignore it. Get your heads together consolidate make one thread with constructive feedback once things go live otherwise it's just bashing your head on the wall over and over again. Maybe I dont know start the consolidated thread with exactly WHY it's so boring to heal and try to work out how to make the bit more exciting then how to pick back up the dps buttons etc.etc.

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The more you say stuff like this, the more you’re going to hear the same reply.

If the developers want healers to heal more, that needs to be reflected in the ENCOUNTER DESIGN. Over simplifying the DPS kit of the healer jobs comes off as more of a reprimand for not playing the job the way they think you should. If it were truly a balancing issue, they would have given White Mage some raid utility and called it a day.

But no, all evidence suggest that we are being strong armed into becoming heal bots, and a lot of us are not okay with that. We have to clear solo content too, you know. We want to be challenged and engaged during long encounters.

I see that you joined the forums in 2017, so you may have missed the differences in healing from ARR to HW to SB. But every expac launch led to serious issues with the healers. Frankly, this is nothing new, we’re just REALLY over it at this point.

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Originally Posted by DiznypKC

I see that you joined the forums in 2017, so you may have missed the differences in healing from ARR to HW to SB. But every expac launch led to serious issues with the healers. Frankly, this is nothing new, we’re just REALLY over it at this point.

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I'll never forget yoshi p saying he was afraid to see what people could do with there "big" ast change in hw , ala 20% balance gee i wonder what they were going to do with it. xd

It really is hilarious how people grasp at straws in comparison to tanks and healers that they are the same kind of thing to attempt to justify their complaints. This is nothing new however, this has gone on since 2.0 days.

Dislike healer changes? Sure. Saying this is like a tank removing DPS and making it more enmity based is laughable.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

It really is hilarious how people grasp at straws in comparison to tanks and healers that they are the same kind of thing to attempt to justify their complaints. This is nothing new however, this has gone on since 2.0 days.

Dislike healer changes? Sure. Saying this is like a tank removing DPS and making it more enmity based is laughable.

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I think I clearly articulated what I thought was a double standard and instead of arguing against my positions, you post this tripe.

Everything you post across the various topics has no real value other than "No because reasons without actually listing anything".

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Arguing with an idiot is like playing chess with a pidgeon. It'll just knock over all the pieces, crap on the board, and strut about like it's won anyway.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

I think I clearly articulated what I thought was a double standard and instead of arguing against my positions, you post this tripe.

Everything you post across the various topics has no real value other than "No because reasons without actually listing anything".

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I'll say don't bother with her, did the same in other topics, never addresing the arguments and twisting arguments to make value attacks instead of actually explaining or argumenting her points.


Now, one thing I see, which I think is related to the double standart issue, is that people seem to be misinterpreting the issue; Healers don't want to DPS. The issue with healers was never about doing DPS, the removal of the DPS skill themselves isn't the problem, because then, why is AST and WHM complaining too? Their DPS skill are just the same as before. No, the problem is that healer classes have been striped of half of their kit, while WHM hasn't gained any. With this I mean what they did when soloing or when there was downtime. Is not that Healers want to be "green DPS", is that DPS was the way we contribute to the party, how we excel at our jobs by both keeping the party alive while contributing as much as possible. In the AST case, it wasn't so much DPSing as it was buffing. WHM was considered by many the "entry" healer class because its heals were powerful, but lacked any extra mechanic to worry about. SCH was the one which had the most interesting DPS rotation, wich was still quite simple, yet it interacted with our healing skills (using ED to fill the Fairy gauge and dump Aetherflow to avoid wasting it while helping conserving MP). I think this twisting of what the healer issues are hurts the discussion quite a bit.

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Originally Posted by Elgeron

Now, one thing I see, which I think is related to the double standart issue, is that people seem to be misinterpreting the issue; Healers don't want to DPS. The issue with healers was never about doing DPS, the removal of the DPS skill themselves isn't the problem, because then, why is AST and WHM complaining too? Their DPS skill are just the same as before. No, the problem is that healer classes have been striped of half of their kit, while WHM hasn't gained any. With this I mean what they did when soloing or when there was downtime. Is not that Healers want to be "green DPS", is that DPS was the way we contribute to the party, how we excel at our jobs by both keeping the party alive while contributing as much as possible. In the AST case, it wasn't so much DPSing as it was buffing. WHM was considered by many the "entry" healer class because its heals were powerful, but lacked any extra mechanic to worry about. SCH was the one which had the most interesting DPS rotation, wich was still quite simple, yet it interacted with our healing skills (using ED to fill the Fairy gauge and dump Aetherflow to avoid wasting it while helping conserving MP). I think this twisting of what the healer issues hurts the discussion quite a bit.

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DPS is the end all metric because there is no way to effectively gauge HPS other than everyone is alive and the encounter is done. In fact, overhealing is generally considered a bad thing because your GCD's would be better spent elsewhere. And the only other place to spend them as a healer is on DPS. If the developers gave us more mitigation that would be awesome.

Make Protect a short term defensive CD. Turn Apocatastasis into Shell, give it to the healers, and make it a magic defensive CD. Remove everyone's self heals so healers actually have something to do. Ramp up the enemy damage a bit (but not too much or casuals will scream).

One of the main reasons I made this thread was very simple:

If tanks had a 1-2 combo for massive enmity (from level 2 to level 80), an AOE, and nothing but Defensive CD's (not offensive CD's) they'd be rioting. This is the exact situation healers will find themselves in come shadowbringers.

To all those "I'm a healer, I shouldn't have to DPS!"-healers out there.
One of the very earliest CNJ quests, I think it was the level 15 one(?), outright told you that your job as a healer is not merely filling up HP-bars mindlessly - it is also about knowing when to heal at all, and when it's fine to do other things. Since that other things is, in most cases, DPS... no matter what the devs try to tell us now, they quite literally told us "hey, it's not cool to stand around idly, you really should do something with your time if there's nobody to heal" ever since ARR.

Also, to those refusing to deal damage in dungeons, especially as WHM. Remember that Holy has a pretty neat stun attached to it. So, by DPSing, you are actively protecting the tank from taking damage; damage you would otherwise need to heal up. So stating that it's your job to heal is kinda superfluous if by DPSing instead, you would not only make things faster, but also, at the same time, protect your group from taking damage in the first place. Food for thought.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

Get your heads together consolidate make one thread with constructive feedback once things go live otherwise it's just bashing your head on the wall over and over again. Maybe I dont know start the consolidated thread with exactly WHY it's so boring to heal and try to work out how to make the bit more exciting then how to pick back up the dps buttons etc.etc.

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Right, good idea. I mean, the Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread we had for Stormblood helped a lot with telling the devs what we needed back then! Wait... no, it didn't. It was just over 350 pages worth of posts wasted.

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

Right, good idea. I mean, the Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread we had for Stormblood helped a lot with telling the devs what we needed back then! Wait... no, it didn't. It was just over 350 pages worth of posts wasted.

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What kills me the most about those massive response threads is how an SE rep never even shows up to say, "Hey, we see you have some concerns and here's what we're planning to do" or "Here's is our thought process on why we did that"

Just doing that would help alleviate a lot of problems.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

It really is hilarious how people grasp at straws in comparison to tanks and healers that they are the same kind of thing to attempt to justify their complaints. This is nothing new however, this has gone on since 2.0 days.

Dislike healer changes? Sure. Saying this is like a tank removing DPS and making it more enmity based is laughable.

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I too was a PLD main at the start of 2.0

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

I think I clearly articulated what I thought was a double standard and instead of arguing against my positions, you post this tripe.

Everything you post across the various topics has no real value other than "No because reasons without actually listing anything".

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lmao they cannot read it appears, love the quote about the pigeon, made me giggle.

I'm just going to sit here rolling my eyes when future live letters are like "Oh we didn't expect this to happen, we will fix it" as always. It's going to take some magic to change how healing works in a way the casuals won't cry. I mean remember when they nerfed the level 10 or so story quest because it asked you to bring an antidote against the void sent xD

whenever somethings been remotely pressuring, like vault etc or steps of faith (which wasn't hard anyways), people would end up complaining about it. not one casual fight doesn't allow for dps.... I can't speak for ultimate as I havn't really raided in Stormblood past O1s-O4s.

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Originally Posted by Knoahl

lmao they cannot read it appears, love the quote about the pigeon, made me giggle.

I'm just going to sit here rolling my eyes when future live letters are like "Oh we didn't expect this to happen, we will fix it" as always. It's going to take some magic to change how healing works in a way the casuals won't cry. I mean remember when they nerfed the level 10 or so story quest because it asked you to bring an antidote against the void sent xD

whenever somethings been remotely pressuring, like vault etc or steps of faith (which wasn't hard anyways), people would end up complaining about it. not one casual fight doesn't allow for dps.... I can't speak for ultimate as I havn't really raided in Stormblood past O1s-O4s.

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I've done both Ultimates in prog and and cleared every Savage they've had in SB while relevant, as long as my healing partner was on par with me there was plenty of downtime to DPS. None of the content currently is so difficult to heal, even in prog, that you cannot DPS unless your party is just awful all around (which is rare).

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

What kills me the most about those massive response threads is how an SE rep never even shows up to say, "Hey, we see you have some concerns and here's what we're planning to do" or "Here's is our thought process on why we did that"

Just doing that would help alleviate a lot of problems.

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Oh, no, a SE rep did show up...That thread, if it is the one I think it is? That was forcibly created by squishing all the WHM threads into one and mass deleting a bunch of random comments between the threads. And then never responding to it.

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Originally Posted by Knoahl

lmao they cannot read it appears, love the quote about the pigeon, made me giggle.

I'm just going to sit here rolling my eyes when future live letters are like "Oh we didn't expect this to happen, we will fix it" as always. It's going to take some magic to change how healing works in a way the casuals won't cry. I mean remember when they nerfed the level 10 or so story quest because it asked you to bring an antidote against the void sent xD

whenever somethings been remotely pressuring, like vault etc or steps of faith (which wasn't hard anyways), people would end up complaining about it. not one casual fight doesn't allow for dps.... I can't speak for ultimate as I havn't really raided in Stormblood past O1s-O4s.

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Yeeeaaaaah, got to love this "oh, we didn't see that coming despite our players being able to do so from the other side of the planet!"-bullsh*it... one would think they should learn after a few times, right? But no...
I did need a few tries to clear Steps (still did it day 1, though, so whatever), but not because it was too hard. It took that long because people were just too stupid to understand what they needed to do. So yeah, agree with you 100%.
Though I cannot remember the Vault being hard at all o.o
There was some damage going out, sure, but it really wasn't hard if you remembered the basics of this game, aka "don't stand in sh*t" and such. People s*ck more than I thought if they found the Vault hard...

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

There was some damage going out, sure, but it really wasn't hard if you remembered the basics of this game, aka "don't stand in sh*t" and such. People s*ck more than I thought if they found the Vault hard...

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That's why the Vault was hard. If people didn't bother doing mechanics, the healer had to work overtime to keep people up...And people did a terrible job with the mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

What kills me the most about those massive response threads is how an SE rep never even shows up to say, "Hey, we see you have some concerns and here's what we're planning to do" or "Here's is our thought process on why we did that"

Just doing that would help alleviate a lot of problems.

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The problem with this is that they're a proud Japanese company, Square Enix. I don't really remember the development team ever apologizing for having to revert any changes or going against what they'd previously stated what was going to happen, and, instead, I do remember them reverting changes and proudly proclaiming they were doing us a favor because of some issue they had just figured out over a period of time (during which, they tell the players they/we need more time with what they'd taken away/given us already to make sure that the design philosophy was alright in the content that they'd designed it for (implying that the design was only ever supposed to work for a specific content and none other, but they want us to suffer for their lack of actual playtesting), they tell the players to "get good," or they say absolutely nothing at all except "please look forward to it."). To be honest, I don't expect we'll ever see them make a public statement outside of the clearly-rehearsed live letters now, least especially outside of the far-too-apologetic Japanese forums.

In fact, with the e3 live letter coming up, apparently our last bit of news prior to Shadowbringers; if he even talk about the current dismay of healers, he's very much likely going to say something along the lines of "we see and hear you, but we urge you all to wait and see how it feels before you make a decision, look forward to it" like they have been.
And when it fails and blows up spectacularly in their face, because lazy healers won't be able to survive the content and competent healers are deathly bored, they'll try and claim that we're "working together" as a "community" to fix the problem, so that at least parts of the community will be pacified because they'll be made to feel that they're being listened to, and they'll return Miasma II, they'll bump up the power of Balance, and they'll add more overall potency to Assize, and call it good for the expansion.
Look forward to it.

Meanwhile, I'm talking like you haven't experienced this before, yourself, but let's let this sit and be a prophetic warning to those who haven't gone through this. I would enjoy being proven wrong, though.

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Originally Posted by MintnHoney

The problem with this is that they're a proud Japanese company, Square Enix. I don't really remember the development team ever apologizing for having to revert any changes or going against what they'd previously stated what was going to happen, and, instead, I do remember them reverting changes and proudly proclaiming they were doing us a favor because of some issue they had just figured out over a period of time (during which, they tell the players they/we need more time with what they'd taken away/given us already to make sure that the design philosophy was alright in the content that they'd designed it for (implying that the design was only ever supposed to work for a specific content and none other, but they want us to suffer for their lack of actual playtesting), they tell the players to "get good," or they say absolutely nothing at all except "please look forward to it."). To be honest, I don't expect we'll ever see them make a public statement outside of the clearly-rehearsed live letters now, least especially outside of the far-too-apologetic Japanese forums.

In fact, with the e3 live letter coming up, apparently our last bit of news prior to Shadowbringers; if he even takes about the current dismay of healers, he's very much likely going to say something along the lines of "we see and hear you, but we urge you all to wait and see how it feels before you make a decision look forward to it" like they have been.
And when it fails and blows up spectacularly in their face, because lazy healers won't be able to survive the content and competent healers are deathly bored, they'll try and claims that we're "working together" as a "community" to fix the problem, so that at least parts of the community will be pacified because they'll be made to feel that they're being listened to, and they'll return Miasma II, they'll bump up the power of Balance, and they'll add more overall potency to Assize, and call it good for the expansion.
Look forward to it.

Meanwhile, I'm talking like you haven't experienced this before, yourself, but let's let this sit and be a prophetic warning to those who haven't gone through this. I would enjoy being proven wrong, though.

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You put in words what I thought and said on this forum for a while now far better than I ever could. Thank you for that.

Stuff like this is why so many players think that the developers are absolutely disconnected from the player base and have no idea what they're doing or have poor team communication. It's not the first time Yoshi's been caught flat footed on what his team does.

Yoshi-P on Red Mages (2 part GIF):

https://i.imgur.com/TzNQfGE.gif

Meanwhile on Scholar

https://i.imgur.com/saGkK51.png

Oh no.

Not Miasma.

I don't think that gif states anything definitive. It seems to me that if they stated that they don't like taking away abilities and nerfing stuff, then actually doing so should've been a monumental debate. For lack of a better set of words, I don't think they took gutting SCH lightly.

Although, they certainly haven't been 100% consistent on "bringing the bottom up" on everything, for the most part they seem to be following those ideals. They haven't straight up nerfed a whole lot of things, and in general most of the changes do in fact seem geared towards raising the skill floor.

And I'm not disagreeing with healers on this, particularly SCH - they got gutted af and no one can really deny that. It's just, I don't think they did it to spite anyone. Clearly they have a longer term goal in mind than most of the playerbase considers and we aren't exactly privy to what that is.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Stuff like this is why so many players think that the developers are absolutely disconnected from the player base and have no idea what they're doing or have poor team communication. It's not the first time Yoshi's been caught flat footed on what his team does.

Yoshi-P on Red Mages (2 part GIF):

https://i.imgur.com/TzNQfGE.gif

Meanwhile on Scholar

https://i.imgur.com/saGkK51.png

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OML, I wish I could turn this into my signature. It's too perfect.

Edit: I was able to fit half :') Make SCH great again!

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I don't think that gif states anything definitive. It seems to me that if they stated that they don't like taking away abilities and nerfing stuff, then actually doing so should've been a monumental debate. For lack of a better set of words, I don't think they took gutting SCH lightly.

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Problem is, they have yet to come out and say definitively why they've done it (that I've seen). Was it the players expectations that healers should dps and the dev's didn't agree with that? Possibly. But that's a failure of design on their part by designing a game for the past 6 years that allowed that playstyle to happen.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Problem is, they have yet to come out and say definitively why they've done it (that I've seen). Was it the players expectations that healers should dps and the dev's didn't agree with that? Possibly. But that's a failure of design on their part by designing a game for the past 6 years that allowed that playstyle to happen.

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I don't know, responsibility falls a bit on both sides in my opinion. Sure, they allowed healers to be played the way they are/have been, but the other side of the coin is the playerbase running away with that style and widening that divide further than may have been originally considered possible. Even still, if you think it was a design flaw then SE have every right to fix it, don't they?

Look I empathize with the healers to a certain degree, SCH especially because it's a significant difference to the way they've always played. But at the end of the day it's probably not that going to be that bad, the core play of a healer is still the same: Put up dot, spam GCD attack, heal as needed. Whether you have 1 dot, or 3 dots, it's all an obstacle, it's just a button to be pressed at some specific point in time. Now you'll simply be pressing something else instead.

And you know something else, consider this with a grain of salt. Maybe they just want healers that preffered to spend most of the time pushing DPS to just roll a DPS job instead. People like myself that have dabbled in healing, that don't know wtf they are doing and let tanks die in levelling roulette while I set up my dots on sch - well healing will be a bit easier for people like me. (not that I want to be a healer main now). So it's just something else to consider, they are trying to make healers more appealing and simple just like they did with tanks. And both tanks and healers are arguably the most important roles to keep filled.

(all that being said, they should still make some jobs more technical for players that enjoy that, instead of just dumbing everything down to the same level)

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

And I'm not disagreeing with healers on this, particularly SCH - they got gutted af and no one can really deny that.

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WHM and AST didn't get gutted. WHM lost aero 3, but gained afflatus misery, which imo looks a lot more interesting to use and optimize than a button you press every 24 seconds. AST has the same DPS kit, but has a more interesting card system now.

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Originally Posted by Siccoroa

WHM and AST didn't get gutted. WHM lost aero 3, but gained afflatus misery, which imo looks a lot more interesting to use and optimize than a button you press every 24 seconds. AST has the same DPS kit, but has a more interesting card system now.

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WHM more or less remains the same. AST lost their card complexity. SCH lost fairy complexity and over half their dps kit. SCH was gutted.

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Originally Posted by Siccoroa

WHM and AST didn't get gutted. WHM lost aero 3, but gained afflatus misery, which imo looks a lot more interesting to use and optimize than a button you press every 24 seconds. AST has the same DPS kit, but has a more interesting card system now.

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I know, my comment was specifically referring to SCH. Again it's all with a grain of salt since I'm not a heal main, but WHM and AST kits are virtually unchanged. I think most of the controversy on these 2 jobs is more about their new toys not being shiny enough.

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Originally Posted by Siccoroa

WHM...didn't get gutted.

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Can't really gut something that barely had substance to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

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Guess what - To make sure healers are more inline with one another, and to balance them with how they interact with other classes and upcoming mechanic changes/new mechanics in ShB, this will mean that nerfing/buffing will occur. And we will lose skills. This isnt news. This is to be expected. People think that Scholar is some exception to this cause doing some DPS skills that are from ARC defines SCH, and as a result of having those skills trimmed, you no longer are a "Scholar." And then its "Oh boy, the devs are super disconnected! They dont know what we want! The Liars!"

Seriously, this is a silly ass pov. SCH got trimmed from DPS to be more in line with other healers, and got some more healing ability as compensation. How that fits in with other classes along with mechanic changes has yet to be absolutely seen. Hell, even Yoshi P in the post says "We want to avoid...". That isnt him saying they will never take skills away from anyone. Thats them saying that they want to set it up where things dont get removed from a players kit if possible. For them to balance out healers, this outcome was to be expected.

Furthermore, Youre not a scholar cause you can cast Miasma or Energy Drain. Youre a scholar cause you can summon a fairy and use fairy + healing skills to restore allies. Thats your class identity - having a fairy and doing things with the fairy. Not set the fairy to auto heal while you spam away a small dps rotation that stems predominately from ARC (yes I know this is an oversimplification.)

This would be telling people youre no longer a paladin when they removed your ability to use Raise people or have Protect, both which were from the requirement of being a lvl 15 Conjuror along with being a lvl 30 GLD.

No matter what anyone says, youre still a scholar, you still have your fairy, and you still do healing. These are what define your class, not that you had a few DPS spells from your base class.

If people are more concerned with doing all the deeps but want to do some support, then reroll a DPS class like Dancer or SMN.

I dunno, maybe Im just super annoyed at this point that SCH are being denied something or 'losing their identity'. That god forbid the devs rework classes, and balance, and everyone's class has to be subject to those changes. I dont understand this mentality that somehow every class changes, the battle system is likely changing some too, as well as dungeon and boss design, but SCH has to remain 100% untouched, or at the least, they gotta be special and have both a robust healing kit that is on par with WHM and AST, as well as a functional (albeit semi-limited) DPS kit too. And then acting hurt when the devs say "Hey, we want SCH to be more Healing Orientated, just like the other 2 healers." and make changes that put them more in line with the other 2.

Grah. Ok thats enough angry potato for a minute or two.

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Originally Posted by Nerfworthy

Make SCH great again!

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Even after getting mugged in a back alley they're still the best healer in the game. And you can rest assured SE will buff them back to The Undisputed King, The Merciful God of Jobs to End All Jobs before 5.1 is even a thought in our minds.

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Originally Posted by Nerfworthy

WHM more or less remains the same. AST lost their card complexity. SCH lost fairy complexity and over half their dps kit. SCH was gutted.

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More complex is not the same as more interesting. In the new system fishing for seals and constantly buffing my team sounds much more interesting than fishing for aoe balance.

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Originally Posted by Siccoroa

AST has the same DPS kit, but has a more interesting card system now.

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(Emphasis mine) Can't think of too many AST who would agree to this. Their class mechanic got dumbed down. It's essentially a coin flip now. Every card is either Melee or Ranged.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Look I empathize with the healers to a certain degree, SCH especially because it's a significant difference to the way they've always played. But at the end of the day it's probably not that going to be that bad, the core play of a healer is still the same: Put up dot, spam GCD attack, heal as needed. Whether you have 1 dot, or 3 dots, it's all an obstacle, it's just a button to be pressed at some specific point in time. Now you'll simply be pressing something else instead.

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Think about having only essentially 2 buttons for damage from level 1 to level 80 because that's healers come ShB, two attacks. That's it. 1 dot and 1 filler spell until dead. I can't think of any sane person who thinks that's enjoyable.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

And you know something else, consider this with a grain of salt. Maybe they just want healers that preffered to spend most of the time pushing DPS to just roll a DPS job instead. People like myself that have dabbled in healing, that don't know wtf they are doing and let tanks die in levelling roulette while I set up my dots on sch - well healing will be a bit easier for people like me. (not that I want to be a healer main now). So it's just something else to consider, they are trying to make healers more appealing and simple just like they did with tanks. And both tanks and healers are arguably the most important roles to keep filled.

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Healers have to be able to level via the MSQ reasonably somehow. These changes make an already boring MSQ even worse.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I don't think that gif states anything definitive. It seems to me that if they stated that they don't like taking away abilities and nerfing stuff, then actually doing so should've been a monumental debate. For lack of a better set of words, I don't think they took gutting SCH lightly.

Although, they certainly haven't been 100% consistent on "bringing the bottom up" on everything, for the most part they seem to be following those ideals. They haven't straight up nerfed a whole lot of things, and in general most of the changes do in fact seem geared towards raising the skill floor.

And I'm not disagreeing with healers on this, particularly SCH - they got gutted af and no one can really deny that. It's just, I don't think they did it to spite anyone. Clearly they have a longer term goal in mind than most of the playerbase considers and we aren't exactly privy to what that is.

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they have to look 3 years or so into the future figure whats going to do what in a hundred more item levels the VAST skill gap in players on top of whats going to do what next expansion most players cant even look towards what theyre going to be doing tomorrow let alone a couple years down the road.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Can't really gut something that barely had substance to begin with.

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Also something that got gutted just as bad as SCH now only one expac before. There honestly isn't even anything left for them to gut without making the job complete garbage.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Guess what - To make sure healers are more inline with one another, and to balance them with how they interact with other classes and upcoming mechanic changes/new mechanics in ShB, this will mean that nerfing/buffing will occur. And we will lose skills. This isnt news. This is to be expected. People think that Scholar is some exception to this cause doing some DPS skills that are from ARC defines SCH, and as a result of having those skills trimmed, you no longer are a "Scholar." And then its "Oh boy, the devs are super disconnected! They dont know what we want! The Liars!"
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Youre not a scholar cause you can cast Miasma or Energy Drain. Youre a scholar cause you can summon a fairy and use fairy + healing skills to restore allies. Thats your class identity - having a fairy and doing things with the fairy. Not set the fairy to auto heal while you spam away a small dps rotation that stems predominately from ARC (yes I know this is an oversimplification.)
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No matter what anyone says, youre still a scholar, you still have your fairy, and you still do healing. These are what define your class, not that you had a few DPS spells from your base class.

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Thank you for articulating my thoughts perfectly, I wish I could hang this up on my wall!

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Think about having only essentially 2 buttons for damage from level 1 to level 80 because that's healers come ShB, two attacks. That's it. 1 dot and 1 filler spell until dead. I can't think of any sane person who thinks that's enjoyable.



Healers have to be able to level via the MSQ reasonably somehow. These changes make an already boring MSQ even worse.

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You mean instead of juggling two dots I have to juggle one now??!!! Oh the horror, it's almost as if I rolled a healer and knew that my dps kit would be simpler due to the fact I'm a healer!

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

You mean instead of juggling two dots I have to juggle one now??!!! Oh the horror, it's almost as if I rolled a healer and knew that my dps kit would be simpler due to the fact I'm a healer!

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There are several games where healers have interesting kits that don't dumb down the job itself.... all these changes do is dumb down the jobs we played without truly adding anything of substance... this game also requires you to damage if your going through MSQ as the role (which is going to be role locked this time around... which if Im understanding it correctly you have to choose a job to do the Shadowbringer MSQ as and continue it as that. Given how instances play, well let's just say things are sillier by gutting the job the way they did.

Oh and for the record most games that require healers to almost exclusively heal to not handle damage the way this game has... and for anyone thinking there truly going to adjust that for Shadowbringers... you might see a small (and I do mean small) adjustment to damage.. but this game has been built to attract casuals so why anyone thinks there going to make the game "harder" for one role is beyond my ability to think.

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

Also something that got gutted just as bad as SCH now only one expac before. There honestly isn't even anything left for them to gut without making the job complete garbage.

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off the top of my head WHM lost aero 1, the potency on fluid aura, and cleric stance going from hw to sb. I wouldn't call losing a mobility tool, an ogcd, and a busy work button being gutted.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

(Emphasis mine) Can't think of too many AST who would agree to this. Their class mechanic got dumbed down. It's essentially a coin flip now. Every card is either Melee or Ranged.

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Its essentially a coin flip now. You either draw a balance/spear/arrow all of which do the same thing, or you draw a bole/ewer/spire all of which get fed to royal road. To me it sounds much more interesting to have a guranteed card to play every 30 seconds instead of 1 card per minute at best.

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Originally Posted by Siccoroa

WHM and AST didn't get gutted. WHM lost aero 3, but gained afflatus misery, which imo looks a lot more interesting to use and optimize than a button you press every 24 seconds. AST has the same DPS kit, but has a more interesting card system now.

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AST cards got incredibly simplified, and WHM was only slightly buffed but please remember that WHM is already kind of bad as it stands right now.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

(Emphasis mine) Can't think of too many AST who would agree to this. Their class mechanic got dumbed down. It's essentially a coin flip now. Every card is either Melee or Ranged..

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As opposed to before, where every card was either Balance or substandard.

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Originally Posted by Siccoroa

off the top of my head WHM lost aero 1, the potency on fluid aura, and cleric stance going from hw to sb. I wouldn't call losing a mobility tool, an ogcd, and a busy work button being gutted.

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White mage lost:
- Protect (3.0): Moved from WHM only to role action.
- ProShell- Gave Protect increased Magic Resistance (worked into protect when it moved to role actions)
- Graniteskin Trait: strengthened stoneskin. (3.0)
- Fluid Aura potency
- Stoneskin and Stoneskin II (4.0) replaced with Divine Benison a weaker, cooldown, instant cast, single-target only ability at level 66. 34 levels higher than we got it in 2.0
- Divine Seal (4.0) moved to role actions and renamed Largesse.
- Aero III (5.0)
- Fluid Aura knockback (wtf am I supposed to do with a point blank bind?! Did they give it a range? I doubt it...) (5.0)
- Repose is being moved to role actions. Not that repose has been very useful in 50+ content. (5.0)

That's all I remember off the top of my head.