Healer boycott in 5.0

Instant ques and adventurer in need bonuses, here I come!

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

Shadowflare wasn't just an AOE ability. It and energy drain pushed scholar to have significantly higher potency over a minute than white mage...

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Energy Drain and Shadowflare weren't the reason SCH had higher DPS. SCH being able to heal with oGCD abilities, and being more mobile caused them to have higher DPS than WHM. WHM literally has to stop DPS to heal, SCH can weave in their heals with their DPS. If you compare DPS between SCH and WHM on a target dummy WHM wins, it's because of the issues I mentioned that WHM lags behind on DPS. This isn't even taking into account the abhorrent lack of Utility WHM has.

Stop trying to justify the removal of SCH abilities.

So punish yourself to send a message? Oh boy, that will show them. Words my bruv, those work wonders, the devs are listening.

Well since they ruined my Astro I'm not healing in ShB. I'm going to Gunbreaker so I still get instant ques

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Originally Posted by Scox

So punish yourself to send a message? Oh boy, that will show them. Words my bruv, those work wonders, the devs are listening.

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Well to be fair. If one doesn't like playing healer anymore, wouldn't the punishment be trying to power through and forcing yourself to do it?

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Originally Posted by zombunnies

Well to be fair. If one doesn't like playing healer anymore, wouldn't the punishment be trying to power through and forcing yourself to do it?

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The issue with a boycott is that boycotts aren't effective without hitting the bottom line.

Changing your job isn't a boycott, because you're still giving money to SE.

I'm sure it feels good to sign on to this, but it ultimately doesn't do a thing.

Boycotts hardly, if ever, work though.

I'd say play the jobs and then give feedback about what you like and don't like.

I may pick up SCH again after dropping it when HW came out for AST but I dunno. DNC and GNB are defintely going to be time sinks before I look into playing a Healer.

Unless you can get Urianger and Alphinaud to join the boycott, I don't think it will have any effect at all.

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Originally Posted by darcstar62

Unless you can get Urianger and Alphinaud to join the boycott, I don't think it will have any effect at all.

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That is true if the goal is to inflict lousy queue times on other players, so as to pressure them into whining on behalf of gutted healer mains. A doubtful enterprise in my estimation, more likely to encourage others to think healers suck and deserve to suck.

If the goal is to alter SE's internal metrics regarding job use, playing something else will work and is the only way to do it.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Instant ques and adventurer in need bonuses, here I come!

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*high fives*

Personally, I couldn't decide for quite some time if i want to play as healer or not in ShB. None of the changes are appealing to me and new tools doesnt look that interesting.
Only reason why I still wanted to play as healer is fast queues ....but i guess trust system will be a thing, so I will just play as blm since not only this job gets qulity of life changes, but new tools to expand blm's rotation as well.

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Originally Posted by Almatiel

Personally, I couldn't decide for quite some time if i want to play as healer or not in ShB. None of the changes are appealing to me and new tools doesnt look that interesting.
Only reason why I still wanted to play as healer is fast queues ....but i guess trust system will be a thing, so I will just play as blm since not only this job gets qulity of life changes, but new tools to expand blm's rotation as well.

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Hopefully they get some nicer changes in patches post launch so you can play what you enjoy again, but thats a good idea, I'm thinking of doing the same for my first to level to enjoy the expansion, then I will likely heal after since I'll have the experience boost and I can just heal dungeons, no way I'm questing as a healer.

I love these things, they are so fun to watch.

https://i.imgur.com/Xz5uxaO.gif

Don't really care about AST or their card changes so its whatever for me.
I'll live with SCH changes. Hate losing my DPS but I'll manage and who knows, maybe their add back Energy Drain so I'm not totally twiddling my Aether Stacks needlessly.
WHM is pretty much unchanged for me so again, I'll manage.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Don't really care about AST or their card changes so its whatever for me.
I'll live with SCH changes. Hate losing my DPS but I'll manage and who knows, maybe their add back Energy Drain so I'm not totally twiddling my Aether Stacks needlessly.
WHM is pretty much unchanged for me so again, I'll manage.

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Yeah, the healers are definately far from unplayable, we just need to make sure we effectively feedback how we want to see them improved, maybe we could make a thread consolidating all of the healer feedback and all of us upvote it so its easy for them to find, maybe a discord to organise it and collect all the feedback and consolidate it could be an option.

what does everyone think?

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Originally Posted by Knoahl

Yeah, the healers are definately far from unplayable, we just need to make sure we effectively feedback how we want to see them improved, maybe we could make a thread consolidating all of the healer feedback and all of us upvote it so its easy for them to find, maybe a discord to organise it and collect all the feedback and consolidate it could be an option.

what does everyone think?

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It's important to emphasize this, that the classes are not 'broken' or 'unplayable', the problem is that they look to be braindead, homogeneous, and boring. This moves the discussion away from irrelevant ripostes regarding potency changes.

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Originally Posted by Knoahl

Yeah, the healers are definately far from unplayable, we just need to make sure we effectively feedback how we want to see them improved, maybe we could make a thread consolidating all of the healer feedback and all of us upvote it so its easy for them to find, maybe a discord to organise it and collect all the feedback and consolidate it could be an option.

what does everyone think?

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I'd be fine with that. But I'm sure not everyone would be. I just don't get why the people satisfied with heal only seem to be upset because other people want more to do... it doesn't even effect them by adding more to do on the side. :/

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Originally Posted by Atlantasia

I'd be fine with that. But I'm sure not everyone would be. I just don't get why the people satisfied with heal only seem to be upset because other people want more to do... it doesn't even effect them by adding more to do on the side. :/

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That's it, asking for more to what we have on the side to help the "feel" of the classes isn't being unreasonable, it's just giving feedback. If we can do that then they can review it and make a decision themselves. It doesn't harm the pure healers as they can now pure heal as all 3, it just gives us more to do :) so I dont see why we shouldnt put together our efforts.

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Originally Posted by Atlantasia

I'd be fine with that. But I'm sure not everyone would be. I just don't get why the people satisfied with heal only seem to be upset because other people want more to do... it doesn't even effect them by adding more to do on the side. :/

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Going by interviews - I think it was either Gamerescape or Famitsu - its because there were signs of a lot of healers (especially Scholars) that played their class more as Green DPS then as healers with a DPS kit. The difference is priority - Green DPS players would heal up if absolutely necessary or not heal until after the fight even if players died. Healers with a DPS kit tend to DPS on freedom but put attention on healing. I've had runs in several dungeons - especially Copperbell Hard for some reason - where the entire party kept wiping because the healers would not heal through a fight.

Right now I feel like healers were stripped to the barest minimum so they can see how much they can add before people are spending more time caring about DPS then healing.

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Originally Posted by Writer

Going by interviews - I think it was either Gamerescape or Famitsu - its because there were signs of a lot of healers (especially Scholars) that played their class more as Green DPS then as healers with a DPS kit. The difference is priority - Green DPS players would heal up if absolutely necessary or not heal until after the fight even if players died. Healers with a DPS kit tend to DPS on freedom but put attention on healing. I've had runs in several dungeons - especially Copperbell Hard for some reason - where the entire party kept wiping because the healers would not heal through a fight.

Right now I feel like healers were stripped to the barest minimum so they can see how much they can add before people are spending more time caring about DPS then healing.

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I suspect that those who were so negligent that they failed pop an excog/physick as needed, will not be moved by their DPS rotation being more or less boring. Their parses (lol) require adherence to mathematical formula, not fun.

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Originally Posted by Writer

The difference is priority - Green DPS players would heal up if absolutely necessary or not heal until after the fight even if players died.

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I'm going to stop you right there.

It seems like you're confusing Green DPS players with bad players. The DPS aspect of things is irrelevant, it doesn't matter if they're getting distracted by a Stone IV button or a movement forcing mechanic. They are still bad.

Attitudes like yours are quite literally ruining this game for competent and capable healers FYI.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I'm going to stop you right there.

It seems like you're confusing Green DPS players with bad players. The DPS aspect of things is irrelevant, it doesn't matter if they're getting distracted by a Stone IV button or a movement forcing mechanic. They are still bad.

Attitudes like yours are quite literally ruining this game for competent and capable healers FYI.

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Huh??? What am I reading?

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Huh??? What am I reading?

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What am I missing? =(

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Attitudes like yours are quite literally ruining this game for competent and capable healers FYI.

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...........?

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Originally Posted by Knoahl

Yeah, the healers are definately far from unplayable, we just need to make sure we effectively feedback how we want to see them improved, maybe we could make a thread consolidating all of the healer feedback and all of us upvote it so its easy for them to find, maybe a discord to organise it and collect all the feedback and consolidate it could be an option.

what does everyone think?

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I also thought about a Thread where we can gather all the issues and information we have for the changes. Especially highlighting the biggest issues and if SE wants to get to know what the Forum think, they have one big Thread with all issues and even ideas for changes? I would definitely help there! But how should we address that? Discord might be a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Attitudes like yours are quite literally ruining this game for competent and capable healers FYI.

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It wasn't our attitude that created the idea that anyone not spending every GCD on damage is bad.

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Originally Posted by Yulja

I also thought about a Thread where we can gather all the issues and information we have for the changes. Especially highlighting the biggest issues and if SE wants to get to know what the Forum think, they have one big Thread with all issues and even ideas for changes? I would definitely help there! But how should we address that? Discord might be a good idea.

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have anyone of the calmer minds start the first post my suggestion would be the science guy they tend to come off as a condescending know it all but they're eloquent and well worded English is obviously a first language for them.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

...........?

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Is it actually worth me expanding on why I feel this way? This thread is enough of a train wreck as it is and I honestly didn't want to post in it at all ;)

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

It wasn't our attitude that created the idea that anyone not spending every GCD on damage is bad.

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Actually I'd argue that it was.

Very very few if any top flight healers will ever suggest that you should be blowing every GCD on damage. This is just bluster that's made up to justify this whole pointless argument.

ABC, Always Be Casting is step one.

Being alert is step two.

GCD efficiency is step three.

But that doesn't fit the agenda nearly as well does it? =(

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Originally Posted by Writer

Going by interviews - I think it was either Gamerescape or Famitsu - its because there were signs of a lot of healers (especially Scholars) that played their class more as Green DPS then as healers with a DPS kit. The difference is priority - Green DPS players would heal up if absolutely necessary or not heal until after the fight even if players died. Healers with a DPS kit tend to DPS on freedom but put attention on healing. I've had runs in several dungeons - especially Copperbell Hard for some reason - where the entire party kept wiping because the healers would not heal through a fight.

Right now I feel like healers were stripped to the barest minimum so they can see how much they can add before people are spending more time caring about DPS then healing.

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Bad players are going to remain as bad players whether you remove tools or give them more. I DPS all the time on healers in instances (all three, but especially my WHM main), even with lag or real life distractions, I very rarely let my tanks die or my party wipe. Usually when it occurs, it's due to not just my own error, but the tank's lack of defensive cool down usage and/or failed mechanics on the part of the DPS/Tank. It's like punishing the good players because of the mistakes of the bad players. That's not right.

When I do play DPS or Tanks, usually if my healer is bad, it's not because they're DPSing, it's because they're not doing much of anything in general.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Is it actually worth me expanding on why I feel this way? This thread is enough of a train wreck as it is and I honestly didn't want to post in it at all ;)

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That it is, and I think you have expanded many times why you feel that way, it's just a shame this person chooses to act like a goldfish in every thread he has been in.

We should focus on being constructive, I really think consolidating the information we have gathered amongst our own findings at launch is the best way to go forward, then we can give proper elucidated feedback on how we can improve the healer feel and gameplay as the expansion progresses and hopefully lead up to a well made 4th healer. Better late than never, it's about time we got the actual opinions on healers out not the "iz oki plz wait until out" like we have like Stormbloods Lilies etc.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Actually I'd argue that it was.

Very very few if any top flight healers will ever suggest that you should be blowing every GCD on damage. This is just bluster that's made up to justify this whole pointless argument.

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So let me ask you which one gets telephoned worse.

"Keep your party alive. Everything else is bonus."

"Your GCDs are better put towards damage because your OGCDs are enough."

Further, all that guy said, essentially, is that good healers are good at managing their stuff. He wasn't the one firing off that the healers in question are 'bad' for playing one way or another. He might be insinuating they're on the wrong job (Ergo, "Green DPS" from "Healers with DPS"), but call them bad?

No. That came from the healer.

And it's not just with him. I've had discussions here, quite recently, where those involved flat out lie about their own capability because apparently if anyone admits to using a GCD heal, their opinion must be discredited because 'no one needs to use them'.

That attitude didn't come from a DPS or a Tank player. Most of us frankly don't care how you spend your downtime so long as we don't spend ours face down in the dirt from neglect.

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Originally Posted by Knoahl

That it is, and I think you have expanded many times why you feel that way, it's just a shame this person chooses to act like a goldfish in every thread he has been in.

We should focus on being constructive, I really think consolidating the information we have gathered amongst our own findings at launch is the best way to go forward, then we can give proper elucidated feedback on how we can improve the healer feel and gameplay as the expansion progresses and hopefully lead up to a well made 4th healer. Better late than never, it's about time we got the actual opinions on healers out not the "iz oki plz wait until out" like we have like Stormbloods Lilies etc.

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This is what I've said for weeks all its gotten me has been We dont need to wait to post about it WE KNOW HOW IT WILL BE! to the point that frankly I'd be surprised if they even deign to listen to the feedback once its gathered unless people do it as dispassionately as possible.and just go with cold logic.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

This is what I've said for weeks all its gotten me has been We dont need to wait to post about it WE KNOW HOW IT WILL BE! to the point that frankly I'd be surprised if they even deign to listen to the feedback once its gathered unless people do it as dispassionately as possible.and just go with cold logic.

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I agree, it's just since the devs have said wait until its out until we give feedback, if we can give like a good thread after launch it's like our last ditch effort I suppose. It's just a shame we can't have just tested the game prior launch and actually have given them useful and constructive feedback, and... here I go repeating myself also haha

here is hopeing for a way forward in patches and the next expansion even if its a long road :)

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

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I'm fortunate enough to have co healed with, helped coach and been tutored by several of the very best healers to have played this game. I'm not going to lie, my (now ex, they switched to a DPS unsurprisingly) co healer is way beyond my talent, as are many of the other names I've had the fortune to raid with over the years. However, even when they've had to endure me at my worse (Meleeing Renaulds in SCOB on a trial is a real good start let me tell you), DPS has never once been the big overpowering agenda. Why? Because top flight healers know that your DPS will come naturally once you've got a handle on your active rate, awareness and understanding of an encounter.

If someone is trying to push a healer to do DPS when they don't have the reaction speed or judgement to safely do so then they are no less a fool than the person who insists that healers should be spamming cures from 20 yalms back.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

That attitude didn't come from a DPS or a Tank player. Most of us frankly don't care how you spend your downtime so long as we don't spend ours face down in the dirt from neglect.

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The problem is, just as there's a small but toxic minority that insist that all healers must DPS. There's a similarly small and equally toxic minority that insists that healers mustn't DPS.

There are countless examples on both sides of the camp, the extreme ends of the anti healer dps minority are especially frustrating as the classic examples I've seen and experienced first hand have usually exploded over very little and won't consider any form of reason to try and sway them to a more sensible position. The chat log screen cap from the Griffin I linked was just flabbergasting at the time and yet despite the fact that we as a group were failing DPS mechanics, this guy was dead set on the fact that our two wipes were caused by me DPSing. No recordings, logs or analysis was going to sway him.

This kind of fanatical attitude is becoming scarily prevalent, you only have to look at that awful debacle that happened on Twitch a day or two ago. Some of the clips leading up to that are just outright shameful.

And yes, I'll be the first to say that a healer who insists that every one spends all their GCDs throwing rocks without thought is just as short sighted as the examples I've listed above. Not everyone is capable of that. Not every situation is safe to do that.

A good healer will understand this, regardless of which side of the fence they are on.

Sorry to butt in here -

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

This kind of fanatical attitude is becoming scarily prevalent, you only have to look at that awful debacle that happened on Twitch a day or two ago. Some of the clips leading up to that are just outright shameful.

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Can anyone fill me in on this? I don't really use Twitch or really follow any influencers so I'm a bit lost as to what happened that's bad. Just a link or brief explanation would be nice to help follow along.

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Originally Posted by Shalan

Can anyone fill me in on this? I don't really use Twitch or really follow any influencers so I'm a bit lost as to what happened that's bad. Just a link or brief explanation would be nice to help follow along.

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TLDR: a tank took massive umbrage to a WHM DPSing a trash pull whilst streaming on Twitch to the point of various language proceeding to sitting there mid pull trying to vote kick them for cheating on stream. Further digging quickly showed that the guy had a pretty serious case of bad attitude towards healing in general. The popcorn only came in salted flavour that night.

Probably the biggest take away from all if it is how he made no attempt to ask the WHM what they were doing to either ask them to to tone it down more to his liking or even get a feel for if they had a handle on it as things where (which looked to be the situation in the clips). I don't particularly blame him for ignoring the sea of trolls that came after him, but it seemed clear that he was happy to remain completely ignorant of any enlightenment about the situation.

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Originally Posted by Knoahl

That it is, and I think you have expanded many times why you feel that way, it's just a shame this person chooses to act like a goldfish in every thread he has been in.

We should focus on being constructive, I really think consolidating the information we have gathered amongst our own findings at launch is the best way to go forward, then we can give proper elucidated feedback on how we can improve the healer feel and gameplay as the expansion progresses and hopefully lead up to a well made 4th healer. Better late than never, it's about time we got the actual opinions on healers out not the "iz oki plz wait until out" like we have like Stormbloods Lilies etc.

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Now that I've seen more of the posts. I think I have a better grasp of the situation. It's bad players misinterpreting the fact that good players being efficient with their gcds as "OMG I must dps as much as possible". What I was giving Sebazy a "goldfish" moment with was that the lack of context made it seem more like they where being arrogant. It sounds less so with the context and I'll apologize for that.

As for me, I'm still gonna be optimistic. I like playing the healers boring rotation and all and I've no issues defending that. Are there things they could improve on? Sure. But until then I guess I'm gonna chill in my fishbowl and be positive about what I got and what I'm getting.

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Originally Posted by Knoahl

I agree, it's just since the devs have said wait until its out until we give feedback, if we can give like a good thread after launch it's like our last ditch effort I suppose. It's just a shame we can't have just tested the game prior launch and actually have given them useful and constructive feedback, and... here I go repeating myself also haha

here is hopeing for a way forward in patches and the next expansion even if its a long road :)

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Agreed good sir.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

TLDR: a tank took massive umbrage to a WHM DPSing a trash pull whilst streaming on Twitch to the point of various language proceeding to sitting there mid pull trying to vote kick them for cheating on stream. Further digging quickly showed that the guy had a pretty serious case of bad attitude towards healing in general. The popcorn only came in salted flavour that night.

Probably the biggest take away from all if it is how he made no attempt to ask the WHM what they were doing to either ask them to to tone it down more to his liking or even get a feel for if they had a handle on it as things where (which looked to be the situation in the clips). I don't particularly blame him for ignoring the sea of trolls that came after him, but it seemed clear that he was happy to remain completely ignorant of any enlightenment about the situation.

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A terrible tank took umbrage with a good healer. Woe is he. Let's not give that piece of shit any more recognition, hmm?

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Now that I've seen more of the posts. I think I have a better grasp of the situation. It's bad players misinterpreting the fact that good players being efficient with their gcds as "OMG I must dps as much as possible". What I was giving Sebazy a "goldfish" moment with was that the lack of context made it seem more like they where being arrogant. It sounds less so with the context and I'll apologize for that.

As for me, I'm still gonna be optimistic. I like playing the healers boring rotation and all and I've no issues defending that. Are there things they could improve on? Sure. But until then I guess I'm gonna chill in my fishbowl and be positive about what I got and what I'm getting.

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Lmao sounds good, I'm sorry for being passive also, being optimistic is the best, I'm just bitter from all these expansions we have held out hope. The healers are far from unplayable, we just need to keep giving feedback where we can I guess.