The "Wow Refugee's" impact on the FFXIV Community?

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Originally Posted by mario710

None of that is relevant.

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At this point you've made it fairly clear you're just a common sophist.

Sensing some heavy cognitive dissonance in this thread.

IMO impact has less to do with WOW players jumping over and more to do with FFXIV's emergence into the mainstream. When the game is niche and hidden it attracts specific sorts of players but when a game hits mainstream it tends to lean more towards a typical cross section of society, with all the drama and clashes that come with that.

I've met quite a few WOW refugees in this game and they've mostly been really quite pleasant.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

At this point you've made it fairly clear you're just a common sophist.

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Meanwhile, your pseudo-philosophical posts regarding the ’abundance of WoW immigrants’ are backed by nothing.

Sounds a lot like money.

Calling me a sophist is classy.

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Originally Posted by mario710

It is indeed factual that any number (undefined) of factors will influence a community for better or worse. You ask me to provide evidence of human nature, however, I won't do that. What I will do is restate my point that change is inevitable.

Despite our efforts, everything evolves over time. To claim that WoW immigrants are the problem child of this community infecting everyone is hyperbolic without any semblance of evidence that ISN'T anecdotal.

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You've said a lot of things, but this is probably the one thing I truly agree with.

I'm not here to discuss semantics.

My goal is to inform any uneducated - and morbidly xenophobic - individuals who cannot grasp the idea of change that it’s an absolute certainty, and perhaps, one of the few forces we can count on.

Nothing stagnates.

I played WoW for 6 years after 1 year launch. Left WoW 10 years ago and started playing FFXIV 5 years ago. GW2 mixbag ongoing... some Aion, Cabal, Tera, Ragnarok in between.

So welcome to FFXIV, very nice community. No soul crushing DPS Meters... well SE never supports it and they will ban whoever use it against anyone for accusation and criticism in game performance. So be warned.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

There has been no noticeable increase in toxicity because of WoW players moving over to this game.

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There is observable factual data that we (and you) do have to admit. Once that data is admitted to, and it has to be at this point, it creates legitimate cause for alarm.

In design philosophies, WoW and FF 14 have different cores.

WoW is less MMO*RPG* and more MMO-ESport. They actively highlight it, promote "world first" events, etc.

ESports are about optimized performance. There is a "Bro mentality" where "tough love" is normal behavior, especially when sport-level adrenaline is pumping.

In an ESport telling someone, "Start pulling your weight!" Is completely normal. "If you can't hack it we can bring in any number of others who will! That upsets you!? Get gud!" In WoW it's acceptable to call out parse numbers, mock openly, call out equivalent to gear scores, etc

That's NOT tolerated in FF XIV. While some players use parsers (I've opted out of those personally), they can't, in game chat, rip you over the parse. Doing so is a violation.

It's just different intended designs of both games. FF XIV is a story driven MMO*RPG* with little-to-no ESport support. You can't talk about parsing, shame players, can't be a jerk to "toughen people up." You must complete story quests and side quests to unlock them.

FFXIV encourages level 80s to play with level 20s. They incentivize rewards for re-completing content with players doing it for the first time. That kind of thing doesn't exist in WoW. In WoW story is secondary and PVP/Raids are the focus. The end game isn't A game, it is THE game.

The reason people are concerned about the WoW Refugee Situation is the ESport mentality, when injected into an RPG society is toxic.

Is that gatekeeping? I don't think so.

If you're hanging out for some casual fun, and someone breaks out a copy of Street Fighter 5 everyone has fun until that one guy, and we all know "that" guy, starts telling everyone how to play, who to play, and starts quoting things like "frame data" and "punishment mechanics."

Things become a LOT less fun.

What this means:

I'm an RPG Player. I won't touch a raid. I was traumatized by WoW raiding so badly that I'm afraid to try it in FF XIV. I *want* to try a raid, but I'm legitimately terrified of it. I would need to look up a raid video on YouTube, follow a written guide, etc, triple check my gear score, and then I'm afraid I'd face blow back for opting out of being parsed.

All of that is due to WoW trauma.

Now we are getting a massive influx of WoW players who, to them, that is normalized behavior. To them that is how MMOs are supposed to be played. That is a much larger percentage of the WoW player base than it is the FF XIV player base it does mean that the number of those ESport players, percentage-wise, is on the rise.

Thus, I'm sorry to say it, but the WoW exodus is a reason for us to legitimately be concerned.

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Originally Posted by HWalsh

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I'm not gonna admit to an imaginary cause and effect scenario in regards to the "WoW Exodus". Why acknowledge a problem that simply doesn't exist? And why blame an entirely different player base for the actions of a few here? Plot twist: we are them, and they are us. We are all people on the internet. We play 2 different games. And WoW players aren't coming here because they love Esports, I can assure you. They want something different, and that is what FF XIV offers. And I'd be willing to bet that most of them are happy to have a dev team that doesn't treat them like garbage.

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Originally Posted by HWalsh

There is observable factual data that we (and you) do have to admit. Once that data is admitted to, and it has to be at this point, it creates legitimate cause for alarm.

In design philosophies, WoW and FF 14 have different cores.

WoW is less MMO*RPG* and more MMO-ESport. They actively highlight it, promote "world first" events, etc.

ESports are about optimized performance. There is a "Bro mentality" where "tough love" is normal behavior, especially when sport-level adrenaline is pumping.

In an ESport telling someone, "Start pulling your weight!" Is completely normal. "If you can't hack it we can bring in any number of others who will! That upsets you!? Get gud!" In WoW it's acceptable to call out parse numbers, mock openly, call out equivalent to gear scores, etc

That's NOT tolerated in FF XIV. While some players use parsers (I've opted out of those personally), they can't, in game chat, rip you over the parse. Doing so is a violation.

It's just different intended designs of both games. FF XIV is a story driven MMO*RPG* with little-to-no ESport support. You can't talk about parsing, shame players, can't be a jerk to "toughen people up." You must complete story quests and side quests to unlock them.

FFXIV encourages level 80s to play with level 20s. They incentivize rewards for re-completing content with players doing it for the first time. That kind of thing doesn't exist in WoW. In WoW story is secondary and PVP/Raids are the focus. The end game isn't A game, it is THE game.

The reason people are concerned about the WoW Refugee Situation is the ESport mentality, when injected into an RPG society is toxic.

Is that gatekeeping? I don't think so.

If you're hanging out for some casual fun, and someone breaks out a copy of Street Fighter 5 everyone has fun until that one guy, and we all know "that" guy, starts telling everyone how to play, who to play, and starts quoting things like "frame data" and "punishment mechanics."

Things become a LOT less fun.

What this means:

I'm an RPG Player. I won't touch a raid. I was traumatized by WoW raiding so badly that I'm afraid to try it in FF XIV. I *want* to try a raid, but I'm legitimately terrified of it. I would need to look up a raid video on YouTube, follow a written guide, etc, triple check my gear score, and then I'm afraid I'd face blow back for opting out of being parsed.

All of that is due to WoW trauma.

Now we are getting a massive influx of WoW players who, to them, that is normalized behavior. To them that is how MMOs are supposed to be played. That is a much larger percentage of the WoW player base than it is the FF XIV player base it does mean that the number of those ESport players, percentage-wise, is on the rise.

Thus, I'm sorry to say it, but the WoW exodus is a reason for us to legitimately be concerned.

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None of this is true.

Blaming esport-mentality for the injection of toxicity is a hypothesis and nothing more.

Additionally, you do not speak for everyone. Avoid generalizing.

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Originally Posted by mario710

I'm not here to discuss semantics.

My goal is to inform any uneducated - and morbidly xenophobic - individuals who cannot grasp the idea of change that it’s an absolute certainty, and perhaps, one of the few forces we can count on.

Nothing stagnates.

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I mean... I agree with the general point I think you're making, but going so far as to use "xenophobic" to discuss video game fandoms might mean this argument has gotten a bit too srs bzns, guys.

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Originally Posted by HWalsh

In design philosophies, WoW and FF 14 have different cores.

WoW is less MMO*RPG* and more MMO-ESport.

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It isn't. Overwatch is an ESport, WoW is still very much an MMORPG first and foremost. ESO is an MMO yet if you want to be a part of raiding groups as a DPS, you'll have to pass a test which involves a set amount of DPS and a striking dummy. If you want to join a hardcore raiding group in FFXIV yes, you will have to pull your weight. And if you're really unlucky and don't pull your weight in casual content like dungeons, people won't rip into you in chat as much as they'll just kick you.

Anyway, Guild Wars 2 has been in constant decline for a while now. Guess where quite a few of those refugees are ending up ...

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Originally Posted by HWalsh

The reason people are concerned about the WoW Refugee Situation is the ESport mentality, when injected into an RPG society is toxic.

Is that gatekeeping? I don't think so.

If you're hanging out for some casual fun, and someone breaks out a copy of Street Fighter 5 everyone has fun until that one guy, and we all know "that" guy, starts telling everyone how to play, who to play, and starts quoting things like "frame data" and "punishment mechanics."

Things become a LOT less fun.

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This is the best summary of the issue that I've seen in all 17 pages of this thread.

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That's NOT tolerated in FF XIV. While some players use parsers (I've opted out of those personally), they can't, in game chat, rip you over the parse. Doing so is a violation.

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No, 14 just encourages massive amounts of passive aggressive hostility and a "boot and blacklist them as soon as possible because they have """differing playstyles""" (the mindset of 'mediocrity is acceptable' is different than most raiders have) " mentality, because people who are supposedly adults cant handle being told they arent good enough to handle the things they obviously cant handle.

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WoW is less MMO*RPG* and more MMO-ESport.

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WoW is an MMO with a large community that said "This is the minimum effort we expect from people who want to participate in this content, and if you arent prepared to put it in, make your own groups and stay out of this one" and kept those standards going for over a decade.

A significant portion of those playing this game, at least on the NA and EU servers, are technically 'WoW refugees'. Many of us left WoW at various points over the years that FFXIV has existed. Some like myself did so as of 2.0, others did so in 3.0, yet more 4.0 and yet others in 5.0.

Please stop trying to stifle the game's growth by scapegoating a particular type of player that has been around since the game's relaunch.

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Originally Posted by Barraind

No, 14 just encourages massive amounts of passive aggressive hostility and a "boot and blacklist them as soon as possible because they have """differing playstyles""" (the mindset of 'mediocrity is acceptable' is different than most raiders have) " mentality, because people who are supposedly adults cant handle being told they arent good enough to handle the things they obviously cant handle.

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WoW has had large numbers of those people for as long I've played it. They're just more likely to mistake themselves for good players.

I don't think WoW refugees are doing anything except increasing the player count. It's not like toxic players don't exist, I mean we've had:

• The stigmatizing of players who pulled Hunts early (basically before the entire server got there)
• Tanking dungeons in DoL/DoH gear purposely to try and spiritbond the items for materia (this was patched)
• MSQ where you either skipped cutscenes or spent the entire dungeon watching them and being unable to join fights due to being locked out
• Blaming Bard dps whenever a dps race was never met or tanks/healers rage quitting dungeons when they see two Bards
• Heavy amounts of Tank privilege since 2.0
• Backstabbing Loot Master farms (I think this became more heavily punished at some point in HW)
• Multibox players abusing the fact that they control two characters to vote kick anyone in a dungeon.

What made the FFXIV community different is that a large majority of players don't do these things and are willing to be both patient and understanding. Not to mention that the devs do a great job with polishing content and actively taking player feedback. Sure, things can get rough from time to time, but the FFXIV community as a whole is always striving to better itself.

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Originally Posted by HWalsh

There is observable factual data that we (and you) do have to admit. Once that data is admitted to, and it has to be at this point, it creates legitimate cause for alarm.

In design philosophies, WoW and FF 14 have different cores.

WoW is less MMO*RPG* and more MMO-ESport. They actively highlight it, promote "world first" events, etc.

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XIV has no more or less focus on, say, world-first clears.

WoW was built on having an immersive and massive world. While further expansions have moved further from that towards streamlining, to then call that its core and therefore distinct from XIV's core when ARR's already started with the same streamlined gear-treadmill formula of modern WoW... is absurd.

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Originally Posted by HWalsh

If you're hanging out for some casual fun, and someone breaks out a copy of Street Fighter 5 everyone has fun until that one guy, and we all know "that" guy, starts telling everyone how to play, who to play, and starts quoting things like "frame data" and "punishment mechanics."

Things become a LOT less fun.

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It becomes a different experience. Of course when you are looking for a casual experience to the exclusion of all else and that "else" creeps in, it's invasive and unpleasant to you. But, not all experience must be casually oriented. And neither should casual players need to exclude anything and everything else just to have fun any more than hardcore players should.

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Originally Posted by HWalsh

I'm an RPG Player. I won't touch a raid. I was traumatized by WoW raiding so badly that I'm afraid to try it in FF XIV.

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You're playing a role-playing game, but you refuse to put your character in any situation where they must actually adapt themselves and progress in a compelling circumstance?

This is no "A, therefore B". It's "A, except when B".

XIV exists in a time when the genre has evolved to create a large optimization gap. But, that didn't exist in early WoW. The largest difficulty there was just getting the 25 or 40 people together and have them follow simple directions with disconnecting. And fixed raid counts meant that, often, very little was expected of the last few people to join (the 'rounders'). And if even that experience would traumatize you, how do you even do dungeons? Item level aside, old raids were... at least as lenient as an average dungeon spam here.

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Originally Posted by HWalsh

The reason people are concerned about the WoW Refugee Situation is the ESport mentality, when injected into an RPG society is toxic.

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If WoW is so much more Esports-intensive, as you claim--despite fflogs and clear vids blowing every bit as much here as they and warcraftlogs do there (as they have since literally Heavensward)--why would the WoW players fleeing here be the ones who love Esports above all else?

And what is this "RPG society"? Is it the kind where people type out their combat decisions in old tongue? Because, if it has to do with player-character development, WoW's surpasses XIV's; their customization and freedoms have shrunk, but ours is literally outside of the character creator. If it has to do with expansive lore, WoW still slightly has us beat, if only due to time since release. If it has to do with an immersive, expansive setting and freedom of progression... WoW has us beat again. So, where's this RPG society that exists in XIV but somehow not in WoW?

If we can take the accumulated qualitative and quantitative opinions of any and all vocal or voting players who've played either or both MMOs, we seem to have the better core story. But, does a linear story make a... role-playing game? Is that solely how we're going to say that our MMO is a true RPG and theirs is not, when they have more numerous and deeper RPG elements besides the core linear story?

"WoW Refugee" is just the Bogeyman of FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by mario710

None of this is true.

Blaming esport-mentality for the injection of toxicity is a hypothesis and nothing more.

Additionally, you do not speak for everyone. Avoid generalizing.

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Yet it's pretty consistent that games which revolve around esports have extremely toxic communities. To call everything she's said a lie when most people have the same experiences, is pretty disingenuous. As a WoW refugee myself, one of the biggest black marks on the game has always been the community, for many of the reasons she's listed.

If there is a sizable number of players coming here from WoW, you should be concerned. That doesn't mean we're all bad- nothing of the sort- but even just being here two months, I don't think I've had a single two month period where I've been treated this well by pugs in 15 years of playing WoW.

There's a big difference between being concerned, and being hostile- I think if I'd give advice to FFXIV players it'd be to keep doing what you're doing, kill them with kindness so to speak. Most people in general will try to change their behaviour to fit in; and those that don't stand out. Ideally, the WoW exodus will assimilate.

The absolute worst thing that can happen though is for toxic esport style behaviour to be permitted. If people are insulting teammates or trying to ruin someone else's enjoyment- report it. And that also means SE needs to do their part. Blizzard doesn't do this- just play Heroes of the Storm for a month or two and you'll see; constant games with AFKers, feeders, nastiness because they decided not to do anything about it, and the game utterly collapsed as a result.

Regarding some of the posts here, why is there a stigma against expecting people to have some basic ability to play the game moderately decent in group content? What's sad is that there is another post in General Discussion complaining about how inept the Trust NPCs are, instead of taking responsibility for the runs failing.

Adding to this, I know several people who are FF14 vets that regard people who use jump potions and fail mechanics as "WoW refugees." The elitism goes both ways.

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Originally Posted by Typhoria

Regarding some of the posts here, why is there a stigma against expecting people to have some basic ability to play the game moderately decent in group content? What's sad is that there is another post in General Discussion complaining about how inept the Trust NPCs are, instead of taking responsibility for the runs failing.

Adding to this, I know several people who are FF14 vets that regard people who use jump potions and fail mechanics as "WoW refugees." The elitism goes both ways.

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There is s huge difference between "Basic ability to play the game moderately decent in group content" and what is actually going on.

There are logs now, there are people screaming at others to carry their own weight, even when the group is clearing content. There are people getting *really* upset with (and insta-kicking) people who have opted out of the log program.

Basic ability to play is simply avoiding the AoE spots on the ground and being able to use your general three hit combo while tossing in the occasional cool down. That is basic ability.

More advanced is generally what I do: (For single target)
Drop attack 1 in three hit combo chain A
Fight or Flight
Fortification
Attack Cooldown 1
Attack Cooldown 2 (all done within the first 2.5 seconds)
Attack 2 in combo chain A
Attack 3 in combo chain A
Switch to Attack 1 in combo chain B
Attack 2 in combo chain B
Attack 3 in combo chain B
Attack 1 in combo chain A
Fortification drops, hit 2nd damage mitigation
Attack 2 in combo chain A
Attack 3 in combo chain A
2nd damage mitigation drops, shieldtron 1
Fire Attack Cooldown 1 again
Etc...

That's way more than basic... I don't expect anyone else to do that.

This new breed? That is their baseline.

My baseline?

Dodge the AoEs
Do your basic 3 hit
That's it.

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Originally Posted by HWalsh

This new breed? That is their baseline.

My baseline?

Dodge the AoEs
Do your basic 3 hit
That's it.

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I mean, that was my baseline, too. ...At level 30.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I mean, that was my baseline, too. ...At level 30.

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1, ctrl+1, ctrl+2, 6, 7, 2, 3, 1, 2, ctrl+3, 1, shift+1, ctrl+5, 6

All while managing enemy positioning and dodging AoE areas.

- I have to use a freaking 12 button mouse, I do not expect that from others - I do that to better myself and myself only - I'm not going to look at someone else and say, "Bro do you even lift?"

Note: the missing buttons? All situational and not part of my basic rotation.

Again: Expecting that from anyone else is unfair.

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Originally Posted by HWalsh

Note: the missing buttons? All situational and not part of my basic rotation.

Again: Expecting that from anyone else is unfair.

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If the definition of basic you're using really is just dodging things and using your most basic combo, then man that is a low bar. It'll cut it maybe in dungeons, but actual endgame content? I don't expect people to be min/maxing and perfectly executing optimized rotations, but I do expect them to actually be using all of the tools available to them appropriately at least most of the time.

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Originally Posted by HWalsh

1, ctrl+1, ctrl+2, 6, 7, 2, 3, 1, 2, ctrl+3, 1, shift+1, ctrl+5, 6

All while managing enemy positioning and dodging AoE areas.

- I have to use a freaking 12 button mouse, I do not expect that from others - I do that to better myself and myself only - I'm not going to look at someone else and say, "Bro do you even lift?"

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I do just fine with a left click, right click, and wheel. I don't have a single key I need to stretch to reach, either, outside of menu shortcuts. And let's not pretend WASD are somehow incompatible with doing this or frustrates the process in any significant way.

I'll admit, we have unnecessary button bloat and a held mod state would be appreciated (allowing you to bind Shift/Alt/Ctrl-WASD without pausing WASD movement when hitting Shift-1 or the like, since the state would be snapshotted), but unless you're dedicating core bind space to class-swapping, emotes, or macros, you shouldn't be running into any trouble here...

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Originally Posted by Avidria

If the definition of basic you're using really is just dodging things and using your most basic combo, then man that is a low bar. It'll cut it maybe in dungeons, but actual endgame content? I don't expect people to be min/maxing and perfectly executing optimized rotations, but I do expect them to actually be using all of the tools available to them appropriately at least most of the time.

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That is what basic means.
Basic means basic.

"Actually using all of the tools available to them appropriately at least most of the time" *is* min/maxing.

Side note:
I have tested this, by the way, the basic dodge three hit (depending if AoEing or Single Targeting) works for every dungeon so far 1-70.

Aside from the culture shock of jumping into game that's more story driven - I'm not concerned as much with the influx of WoW players. As other people have said before, we've been receiving players from WoW for years. We're just going to hear more of the same criticisms from that perspective on a game that's clearly not designed in a manner in which they are accustomed.

That's fine - those that wind up sticking around usually adapt and grow to understand the reasoning.

Conversations about skill expectations and results have been here since early the days of MMOs. I just roll my eyes at them and continue to play as comfortable for me. If that's not good enough for some players, I don't have to play with them. Their expectations are not my concern. Improvement should be self-motivated, not peer-pressured. If you're doing a roulette, you're rolling the dice. The gamble theme is implicit in its name.

Else-wise, host your own parties, roulette with friends, etc, etc. It's all been said before.

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Originally Posted by Typhoria

Regarding some of the posts here, why is there a stigma against expecting people to have some basic ability to play the game moderately decent in group content? What's sad is that there is another post in General Discussion complaining about how inept the Trust NPCs are, instead of taking responsibility for the runs failing.

Adding to this, I know several people who are FF14 vets that regard people who use jump potions and fail mechanics as "WoW refugees." The elitism goes both ways.

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I don't think there's a stigma against expecting people to have basic ability in groups- but I do think there's a stigma against treating a total stranger like garbage. If you are jumping into a PuG, whether in FFXIV or WoW, there are expectations that you'll be trying to do well, but there also is the expectation that you don't know what you'll get. Not everyone plays at the same level, some players are bad and some very good.

It may be a bit different if a player is intentionally screwing the group (but that's toxicity on their part, not lack of skill), or, if a player is genuinely so bad the content cannot be completed. Thing is, almost all of the toxicity I see or groups falling apart I see in WoW are with groups that are completely capable of doing the content; just perhaps not at the most efficient speed, with pulling five packs at a time, or that heavens forbid might wipe once.

Also, keep in mind that WoW below heroic raid or M+ which only the more elite players do lacks mechanics. An average fight in FFXIV might have a death mechanic, adds, and something else like something to hide behind. Even something fairly easy, like the first allied raid right now, has an instant death mechanic on almost every boss.

WoW casual content doesn't have mechanics, or has perhaps one such as an add wave or a fire to not stand in- and players still can't do that. I think it's understandable most refugees are going to fail mechanics in this game. Heck, I do heroic raids in WoW and I've still died to most of the instant death mechanics here at least once or twice.

But even if players aren't good in your pug group- a group you joined, by the way, fully realizing it's luck of the draw- I don't see why cussing them out or demeaning them is fine. I think there should be a stigma against that, because it's not the sort of behaviour I'd want to see in casual content in a game I play for fun; it's not fun to be the target of, it's not fun to watch someone else endure.

Aggressive and negative behavior period shouldn't be tolerated. You can understand being frustrated at content you're not clearing because someone is clearly not performing well - but the stigma against expecting players to be good is the fact that such a statement is done in full ignorance of the intended recipient. Some people are simply have a reason why they are not playing well that day or have an ongoing medical reason why some parts are particularly difficult.

What should be stressed is the standpoint of outreach and understanding is what should be assumed above expectation of some subjective measure of performance (That differs from person to person in my experience.) If it doesn't seem to be working out, leave. A break is probably what everyone needs anyways if people are getting hot under the collar.

A video game is not worth breaking the tenants of basic human decency towards strangers. (If it's among your friends, that's on you.)

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Originally Posted by Typhoria

Adding to this, I know several people who are FF14 vets that regard people who use jump potions and fail mechanics as "WoW refugees." The elitism goes both ways.

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The irony is the 'casuals' are some of the most elitist players out there. Always have been.

This trend started with the Planed of Power expansion release back in 2002. It used to be you could find a group, and do fine in even the harder Luclin areas. But that changed in the PoP expansion when peeps outside some of the tougher Velious and Luclin gear were getting wrecked. You simply needed decent gear to even do the regular group content. So this brand new expansion was unplayable for those players who didn't spend the time and effort to get the gear needed from 2-3 expansions before hand.

They didn't blame the devs. They blamed the groups that would turn them away because they weren't geared enough. And rightfully so, the groups simply couldn't complete objectives without everyone being suitably equipped. Imagine if you did Shinryu and your tanks were in item level 110 gear. And hence the term 'casual' came about. It meant that these players 'only played casually' meaning they 'had a life' outside the game unlike those who were better equipped. Or so they claimed.

It was a dig at what they called the hardcores. Hardcore meaning you had no life, lived in a basement, ect.

In its own way it was elitist. Not because they were elite at the game and snubbing others. But that they believed they were better than those better equipped in RL avenues. And now we see it here, 17 years later. Of course many of these players didn't experience this 17 years ago, they simply are regurgitating the same vitriol that started back then. But the judgment continues. If someone plays at a higher level of play, it must because they must be a no-life hardcore. They don't play casually, they story skip, cutscene skip, rush rush wall to wall boss to boss pull everything. They meta every little detail and judge everyone with their evil parsers and mods and macros and computer hardware that costs more than a small car.

Even the perception is enough to be judged this way. I mentioned a few days ago, that I had completed the MSQ in two days time. Not played, but over all two days, from June 28th to June 30th. And I was accused of skipping story, which I did not. I watched every cutscene, read every dialogue. I didn't do sidequests, as I normally do not (as I prefer dungeons to level). But it didn't matter, their mind was already made up. I'm one of those elitist no life hardcores that wants to make their lives miserable in anyway I can to them.

So yes, this elitism goes both ways.

The ironic thing.. is these players will put far more time into the game then those of us they call elitists. They'll play 3-5 hours a day 4-6 days a week. While once we've unlocked the raids we'll be pretty much playing 1-2 days a week for 1-2 hours at a time. Waiting for the weekly lockout. So much for 'hardcores' being no lifes.

There is no phrase I hate more than "WoW refugee." I mean, come on. Refugee? As if they're fleeing some horribly broken game that's ruined MMOs for them? Come on. You may not like modern WoW, you may think it's the worst game in the world, but the fact is that it is still enjoyed by a lot more people than this game currently is.

There has been little to no observable difference between this community and WoW's community, at least not since I started playing in 2015. I still play WoW so I get to see how the communities act real time and, well, everyone's the same, why? Because there's nothing special or unique about XIV players, most of us have played other MMOs, most of us play other games, many of those games the same ones we deride constantly as being super toxic, so why should I expect the players of XIV to be different when they're pulling from the same pool of people?

I will say there is one, and only one, difference I've seen between the two communities: XIV players sure do care a lot if you admit to liking WoW, usually in a negative way. But nobody who plays WoW cares if you like FFXIV. Of course, I will put in here that these are my own personal observations and so generally meaningless when it comes to proving anything.

I have seen people say that the DDoS attacks we've had in the past were orchestrated by angry World of Warcraft players who were mad that this game is successful (false). A number of people here actually believed a fake "leaked" internal Blizzard document supposedly saying that FFXIV was a banned discussion topic at work because it had a negative effect on "employee morale." Nobody on WoW forums is making threads obsessing over the impact XIV or the players of XIV has on their game. Nobody who plays WoW gets up in arms when an XIV player expresses interest in the game, yet for some reason here on these forums you get told to stay in WoW or go back to WoW as if we can't have these filthy WoW players clogging up our great game.

Which is unfortunate, because I'd wager a HUGE chunk of the playerbase consists of former WoW players.

There are people here claiming they have hard, factual evidence that the community is worse, and yet I don't see it. Your stories don't count, and have you considered that there are a lot more people playing the game now, and therefore, a lot more chances to run into an ahole?

You hate WoW? Fine. But why treat WoW players like they're some kind of bogeyman? They are different games, people will enjoy different things about them, and some people won't enjoy them at all.

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There is no phrase I hate more than "WoW refugee." I mean, come on. Refugee? As if they're fleeing some horribly broken game that's ruined MMOs for them? Come on. You may not like modern WoW, you may think it's the worst game in the world, but the fact is that it is still enjoyed by a lot more people than this game currently is.

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I don't think the term "WoW refugee" is made with any innate degradation in the term. I view it rather neutral. Players who are unsatisfied with a game leaves it and comes to another in large quantities have usually been termed 'refugees' in gaming culture. Wildstar, ESO, etc. They've had their various refugee phases. Heck, even those in Warframe refer to people who shift from the Destiny Games to them refer to it as "D2 Refugees"

I think the perception of the word may have been altered by more political motivations outside the world of gaming. But generally it's not meant to be demeaning.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I don't think the term "WoW refugee" is made with any innate degradation in the term. I view it rather neutral. Players who are unsatisfied with a game leaves it and comes to another in large quantities have usually been termed 'refugees' in gaming culture. Wildstar, ESO, etc. They've had their various refugee phases. Heck, even those in Warframe refer to people who shift from the Destiny Games to them refer to it as "D2 Refugees"

I think the perception of the word may have been altered by more political motivations outside the world of gaming. But generally it's not meant to be demeaning.

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What's true is wow is a boogeyman for everything from the community to content to elitism for the players that think XIV is unique.

The problem is the playerbase, which has always shared people with wow.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Conversations about skill expectations and results have been here since early the days of MMOs. I just roll my eyes at them and continue to play as comfortable for me. If that's not good enough for some players, I don't have to play with them. Their expectations are not my concern. Improvement should be self-motivated, not peer-pressured. If you're doing a roulette, you're rolling the dice. The gamble theme is implicit in its name.

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So when 3 people roll the dice and get you, you somehow didn't also roll the dice and get them? They must bow to your expectations, but they can't pressure you towards theirs?

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I don't think the term "WoW refugee" is made with any innate degradation in the term. I view it rather neutral. Players who are unsatisfied with a game leaves it and comes to another in large quantities have usually been termed 'refugees' in gaming culture. Wildstar, ESO, etc. They've had their various refugee phases. Heck, even those in Warframe refer to people who shift from the Destiny Games to them refer to it as "D2 Refugees"

I think the perception of the word may have been altered by more political motivations outside the world of gaming. But generally it's not meant to be demeaning.

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A big part of it may also be that streamers and such for this game and WoW use the term, so it catches on pretty quickly. But there's no question that the quality of BfA is making a lot of players look to other games, and the atrocious 8.2 patch only made things worse- despite Blizz trying to release it to directly compete with Shadowbringers.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

What's true is wow is a boogeyman for everything from the community to content to elitism for the players that think XIV is unique.

The problem is the playerbase, which has always shared people with wow.

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I've avoided painting with a broad brush here as a point of call, as I expected that argument.

The moment you make an "All x Players" comment, you become the guilty party. Be cautious of that.

I've seen vocal people on the forums of every camp of thought. There is a natural rivalry between WoW and other game in the industry, and that is a product of the wild success WoW was in its day. But to make the assumption that the 'playerbase is the problem' is to ignore the forest for the trees. I've read countless positive commentaries of people from other MMOs that actually compliment FFXIV's community regardless of game of origin - and I would gather that sort of story is heard for every game in which someone approaches something new hat-in-hand with an open mind, even a new WoW player.

So the problem is less any group of people, and more a trend of behavior with a nebulous connection to various factors never quite nailed down by any gaming community. This is why I target behaviors, not groups.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So when 3 people roll the dice and get you, you somehow didn't also roll the dice and get them? They must bow to your expectations, but they can't pressure you towards theirs?

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If it's three to one as you say, they're free to vote-kick. I'll be salty for all of the time it takes for me to re-queue - and be sure to take note of them if their behavior sticks out and try to avoid them in the future. If I find it to be an abuse of the system, I'll report it. Otherwise, it's okay to disagree.

But, as I said, improvement should be self-motivated. My motivation reaches as far as making adjustments to complete the duty to the point of comfort. The choice between optimization and ripping my tendon further is always going to favor my real life health.

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Originally Posted by HWalsh

There are logs now, there are people screaming at others to carry their own weight, even when the group is clearing content. There are people getting *really* upset with (and insta-kicking) people who have opted out of the log program.

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Because content has changed since 2.0. It's not the same difficulty. Savage has changed from 2.0, and we have ultimate fights added in SB. With higher difficulty, carrying your own weight is essential to the group's success. Even if you clear said content, those that are under performing need to be addressed.

Those hiding their logs the majority of the times are doing so because it's bad. There are exceptions, but those are rare. If we assumed there was no FFlogs, then what would prevent a player that barely cleared a savage fight and isn't good about its mechanics from joining a farm group that want to clear the fight fast to prog the next fight? They wouldn't know, until they pull multiple times and realize that they're bad at this fight. And in the case of door bosses, if they passed that boss, then that's more time wasted. And if the other kicked that player or called him bad, they'd come here to the forums and say "WoW refugees are toxic and elitist!"

Let me give you an example of an actual log I saw. A party farming Suzaku EX managed to kill it 3 times with two DPS performing even lower than the tanks in some of the fights. They barely killed it before enrage at one fight because the SAM and the BLM had were pulling 7k+ DPS those fights (the SAM had a gold parse and the BLM a purple parse in some of them). So according to your logic, this OK because they killed it. And if they were to tell the other two DPS to carry their own weight, they will be toxic, right?

Anything outside of high end duties is fine if they were to follow your baseline. But in high end duties, then be prepared to be criticized and asked to actually put in the effort.

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Originally Posted by HWalsh

1, ctrl+1, ctrl+2, 6, 7, 2, 3, 1, 2, ctrl+3, 1, shift+1, ctrl+5, 6

All while managing enemy positioning and dodging AoE areas.

- I have to use a freaking 12 button mouse, I do not expect that from others - I do that to better myself and myself only - I'm not going to look at someone else and say, "Bro do you even lift?"

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I'm a mouse clicker and I manage to clear content normally lol.

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Originally Posted by HWalsh

I have tested this, by the way, the basic dodge three hit (depending if AoEing or Single Targeting) works for every dungeon so far 1-70.

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Let me ask you this.. Is it OK if I queue to Ala Mhigo with ilvl 270? We're still gonna clear the dungeon, there's no doubt about that. But do you consider it OK to do so?