Please make Blue Mage a normal job

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

um it is deep and completely different ive done the same and mostly main mages although blue is only 28

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

i have it 50 and know its rotation on other my and account my kitten lol
just start it on this one.

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This is the fastest backpedal I've ever seen on these forums.

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

also if your looking at blue rotation wise then you have no right 2 play blue mage period...

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I mean... what? Do you just hit whatever ability looks the coolest? How well does that work for you?

The fact that BLU has a rotation (and it does) means that it's not that deep or customizable as people make it out to be. I cannot stress this enough, although I feel like everyone who is posting here pro-BLU has not done much playing on it - most enemies are immune to BLU debuffs. This is a precedent that has been established and will not change, meaning that how BLU feels now and how it feels at level 70 will more than likely not change. This is a limited job after all - one that doesn't have a job gauge or a LB - speaking to how much the developers want to push it to the side.

Something to also remember is that it can absolutely be judged as it is now because we're not getting another 10 levels for half a year from now. Yoshi-P said that the earliest we are getting lvl 60 cap increase is 5.1 (no hard confirmation though. may be later), and that it will more than likely not be level 70 before the tail end of Shadowbringers. That's nearly two years. I am not withholding my judgement for the chance it might get better in two years.

P.S. Do not call me kitten.

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

The only playstyle departure BLU has from other casters is that it's locked at level 50 and half of its skills don't work. As someone who has every job at max level and has spent considerable time on every single caster, including BLU, BLU isn't that deep or different.

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blue is different because it has a much greater variety of abilities, with a lot less limits on how much you can use them. blue is also different because skill aquisition, and the primary progression mechanic is fundamentally different, where leveling is easy, but skill aquisistion is what you spend most of your time and effort on.


Blue is different because you dont always have access to all your abilities, and choose your abilities based on whatever you are doing at the time. These are fundamentally different than other jobs. You think of blue as being the same, because you would use it the same as anything else. You want to place it into one of the roles, ignore all skills that dont fit into that role, or are non optimal. Well of course, if you play blue like a generic dps, in a generic dps role, it wont seem that different.

Greater variety my ass, they have the same skills like 5 times, just a different element.

Cone but water, come but fire, line but lightning, line but physical, cone but petrify that doesn't work on anything at 50. It has maybe 5 unique abilities, the rest are just 130 potency trash.

Don't bring debuffs into it because the majority of those get resisted on anything that matters.

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Originally Posted by Physic

blue is different because it has a much greater variety of abilities, with a lot less limits on how much you can use them. blue is also different because skill aquisition, and the primary progression mechanic is fundamentally different, where leveling is easy, but skill aquisistion is what you spend most of your time and effort on.


Blue is different because you dont always have access to all your abilities, and choose your abilities based on whatever you are doing at the time. These are fundamentally different than other jobs. You think of blue as being the same, because you would use it the same as anything else. You want to place it into one of the roles, ignore all skills that dont fit into that role, or are non optimal. Well of course, if you play blue like a generic dps, in a generic dps role, it wont seem that different.

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I play it as a DPS because it is a DPS. One heal does not make a healer, else PLD and RDM would be healers as well. Neither does pulling aggro and able to take the heat for a few moments make you a tank, else RDM, SMN, and WHM would be tanks too.

Also, variety doesn't matter if most of them don't work. This isn't even bringing the 1:1 skill copies like Plainscracker and Flame Thrower.

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As an extra thought not directed specifically at you but as a general statement, being able to clear content as 4 BLU or even 24 BLU isn't that indicative of the job being OP as people are always doing those kinds of challenges as other jobs as well. BLUs solo ability is completely reliant on White Wind and it is funny to see the moment that other jobs get a self-heal, they too can do gimmicky challenges like 8 Tank Alex Savage or 24 RDM Ridorana Lighthouse.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Greater variety my ass, they have the same skills like 5 times, just a different element.

Cone but water, come but fire, line but lightning, line but physical, cone but petrify that doesn't work on anything at 50. It has maybe 5 unique abilities, the rest are just 130 potency trash.

Don't bring debuffs into it because the majority of those get resisted on anything that matters.

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This, to do do optimal dps on BLU you only need like 15 skills, rest of it just fluff that doesnt work on most fights. Great variety.

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Originally Posted by Physic

They could do a lot of things, but they dont want to mix things. They want regular jobs to be streamlined, and similar in how they go about doing things. They dont want their to be a whole extra layer where someone picks up blue mage. Also i have never seen a skill check for dungeon yet, not saying it doesnt exist, but i have never experienced it.

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Oh but Physic. None of it matters.

All of what you're saying falls apart when you say it's what they wanted, because this wasn't really the aim. It was a cheap excuse for content. People have been asking for BLU to be available for a long time, but they NEVER envisioned a "limited job" system because it didn't even exist. SE was the arbiter of its own demise.

Even then BLU is different in meaningless ways, and will forever remain so for as long as it's going to lag behind, and IT IS going to happen with this system. So it's all just going to be a vapid experience no matter how much this supposed "variety" (that doesn't exist) is going to be perpetuated.

If I have to be honest, it is beyond me how people can support the limited job system as is. Do they yearn to see their favourite jobs being butchered for self-defeating purposes?
Again, ask yourself the question if this problem would have existed if BLU were to be implemented as a full job from the beginning.

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

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Those aren't very apt comparisons though. White Wind is a much stronger healing ability than Vercure and Clemency. For one, WW can potentially fully heal an entire party. The others are single target spells that those jobs will struggle to keep up with. As for tanking. BLU may not be as proficient a tank as PLD, WAR or DRK, but it makes a pretty good one for lvl 15 to 50 dungeons, as well as several trials. It has a hard time tanking anything higher than EX though. I would love to see a lvl appropriate RDM, BLM or SMN try to do that.

And of course, this is just for its lvl 50 cap and its current list of 49 spells. I'm quite sure there will be other spells to improve its hybrid nature.

Speaking of spells: how exactly are the elemental spells exact copies of each other? Flamethrower isn't the same as Bomb Toss, Fire Angon or Eruption. Besides the elemental attached to it, they have their niche. Bomb Toss has a long range stun attached to it, Fire Angon is a fast, single target spell and Eruption is an off global cooldown, burst spell with a high potency.
Same goes with Plainscracker and Mountainbuster.

All of those spells work, just not on every target. Are you suggesting every death spell should work on any and all target? Or that status spells should pierce resistances? Eh...I'm not sold on that idea. I'm more in favor of adding more support and weird spells like Auto-Life and Angel's Snack and more attribute debuff spells like DEF down. The weirder, the better. This is likely to happen with almost 80 spells left to be released and most of the elemental-related spells seem to be covered (besides Wind, with Feather Rain being the only Wind spell).

As for your thought: I never thought that BLU was going to be OP. Rather that it was designed as to not care about balance between it and the other jobs; to be its own, separate thing. People keep comparing it to the others and here we are constantly highlighting select BLU spells being used in hypothetical situations comparing them to max lvl jobs and their skills. I don't care if a group of tanks doing an 8-man or if a Red army wants to do a 24 man. More power to them. Why does their silly, fun times have any influence on my enjoyment of BLU? Other than the fact that BLU itself is silly, fun times. Of course.

Back at the end of ARR, most DPS classes were doing 500-600 DPS. BLubarely does 400 DPS. It's only really broken because of a few broken skills. It could be made a number job and balanced while keeping the broken stuff out of "current" content.

Those "broken" abilities would be kept out of current content by the fact they largely don't even work in the content "available" to it.

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

i have it 50 and know its rotation on other my and account my kitten lol
just start it on this one.

and news flash in reborn at 50 all mages for the role was basicly the same as well before hw came out

also if your looking at blue rotation wise then you have no right 2 play blue mage period...

blue mage might be limited ability wise for now but later it will have 4 different rotations

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Can't wait for 6.0 when I can take BLU into Omega raids to be carried by level 90's where those rotations will mean nothing.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Greater variety my ass, they have the same skills like 5 times, just a different element.

Cone but water, come but fire, line but lightning, line but physical, cone but petrify that doesn't work on anything at 50. It has maybe 5 unique abilities, the rest are just 130 potency trash.

Don't bring debuffs into it because the majority of those get resisted on anything that matters.

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And Damage wise Eruption and Feather rain are the exact same, Lightning and landslide are the exact same. Literally no difference whatsoever.

It really is just line, cone, or circle based aoe, take your pick.

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Originally Posted by Auryan

Speaking of spells: how exactly are the elemental spells exact copies of each other? Flamethrower isn't the same as Bomb Toss, Fire Angon or Eruption. Besides the elemental attached to it, they have their niche. Bomb Toss has a long range stun attached to it, Fire Angon is a fast, single target spell and Eruption is an off global cooldown, burst spell with a high potency.
Same goes with Plainscracker and Mountainbuster.

All of those spells work, just not on every target. Are you suggesting every death spell should work on any and all target? Or that status spells should pierce resistances? Eh...I'm not sold on that idea. I'm more in favor of adding more support and weird spells like Auto-Life and Angel's Snack and more attribute debuff spells like DEF down. The weirder, the better. This is likely to happen with almost 80 spells left to be released and most of the elemental-related spells seem to be covered (besides Wind, with Feather Rain being the only Wind spell).

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Fire agnon is useless because it does the same job as mind blast worse. Bomb toss does the same job as flame thrower but with a semi useless stun and less damage, eruption is an ability and wasnt included in their comparison. The point is there is clearly an objectively best skill in a lot of these scenarios. What your pedantry failed to not is they were explicitly comparing the 130 potency skills in their comparison, in that there is a 130 potency skill of essentially the same effect for every element, so there is essentially no variety for these skills. If you were to take 1 100 potency gcd, 1 110 potency gcd, 1 120 potency gcd and 1 130 potency gcd out of all of the blu skills you would have narrowed down most of blues gcds into 4 choices. Literally for damaging gcds all you need to add there is bristle and song of torment and you have all the blu gcds necessary for optimum dps and then some. Freedom of choice my arse. And dont get me srarted on your "silly funtime" comment, id rather not sacrifice a job for some giggles thanks.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Fire agnon is useless because it does the same job as mind blast worse. Bomb toss does the same job as flame thrower but with a semi useless stun and less damage, eruption is an ability and wasnt included in their comparison. The point is there is clearly an objectively best skill in a lot of these scenarios. What your pedantry failed to not is they were explicitly comparing the 130 potency skills in their comparison, in that there is a 130 potency skill of essentially the same effect for every element, so there is essentially no variety for these skills. If you were to take 1 100 potency gcd, 1 110 potency gcd, 1 120 potency gcd and 1 130 potency gcd out of all of the blu skills you would have narrowed down most of blues gcds into 4 choices. Literally for damaging gcds all you need to add there is bristle and song of torment and you have all the blu gcds necessary for optimum dps and then some. Freedom of choice my arse. And dont get me srarted on your "silly funtime" comment, id rather not sacrifice a job for some giggles thanks.

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I wasn't commenting on whether or not if the spell was optimal or not. Rather contradicting the opinion that each of these elemental spells are exactly the same. They are not. The commenter that I was replying to was also conveniently ignoring the niche use of these spells in the Carnival. True, they are not mandatory or even necessary, but they have their uses, especially when you don't have the full list of spells. But sure, keep on harping on their uselessness. And more importantly, you don't have to use the "optimal" spells. I stick to what looks the nicest to pull off. It may not be ideal, but definitely feels less monotonous. Likely you don't care about that either.

My enjoyment of BLU is my opinion, and not an attack on you. A comment in favor of the current BLU isn't a personal assault, no matter how you paint it as. Sometimes people like things that you don't, how about that?
If you want, feel free to ignore my positive views on BLU. You seem to have easily dismissed the others anyway.

Is it really hard to see that people get enjoyment out of different things? For some the even if the choice is an aesthetic one it still is a form on variety and control that they may feel the game is lacking when it comes to jobs. While I do not agree it is not hard to understand why some may enjoy the current implementation. Now at the core only reason I enjoy BLU is because I am a sucker of collectibles, and while I am sure many looked up guides to see were you could find skills, I had a lot of fun with my friends trying to figure it out as a team. We also have had fun doing all content as a full blu group. Now in the end I do think it was a mistake to release this type of content under the banner of a job, but even though I feel they made a mistake from the start being as I enjoy what it has to offer and I wish for it to be expanded upon.

In the end both sides are being selfish which is fine, and SE dropped the ball with the whole job identity, and the language used regarding the slides. Granted, I never bought that it would be a pure solo experience, but I do understand why some saw it that way with the language that they used on the slides. My selfish reason for them not wanting them to do a complete rework is I simply do not have faith in SE to keep the aspects I like while trying to make it fit. It could be done, I just do not see the current combat team being able to complete such a task in a timely matter. If the rush a rework for BLU something will get lost in translation, if they were to do a rework I would rather they do it for patch 6.0 and just expand and build on the limited framework during 5.0. Thing is by that time who is to say people would even care or those impacted would still be playing. It is a tough spot for SE, and while I know it is selfish I enjoy current BLU, oddly enough not because of the job I do not care about job identity I enjoy the collectible aspect. I just do not see how it would make sense for them to have two different jobs under the same job.

How are both sides being selfish when one side says to keep BLU as mostly unsatisfying and the other wants something that makes both happy?

Many of BLU's skills are so similar that I don't lament how many are basically required to execute their rotation properly.

It does, however, make me question how the class is going to evolve as the level cap is increased as they don't have much space for more "required" skills. I imagine there will be a quite few skills that get outclassed and are replaced by better ones, as the same was true of XI's BLU.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Fire agnon is useless because it does the same job as mind blast worse.

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Fire Angon is actually important because it's one of only two offensive skills that has a cast time of one second (The other being Sharpened Knife) and should be used whenever you need to avoid clipping from using OGCD skills.

Not to mention it's a target-centered AoE vs. a proximity AoE that causes paralysis, so its applications really aren't the same at all.

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Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

How are both sides being selfish when one side says to keep BLU as mostly unsatisfying and the other wants something that makes both happy?

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I have said in an ideal world SE would be able to make everyone happy regarding BLU, we do not live in said ideal world. SE has a l limited amount of time and resources something has to given for a full rework to happen. It is the sad reality that we live in.

People may enjoy the current iteration of BLU for exactly what it is. Now we really have to ask would SE be able to make BLU something both sides would enjoy? I doubt it. Do not get me wrong I am sure it is possible but under the current leadership I do not see that as a possibility since if it was how come they did not just do so from the start?

In the end I highly doubt they expected BLU to be some long form content and based on the amount of people that were engaged at the start they probably view it as a success. Though that is purely speculation and maybe their data suggests otherwise but I do not think they will ever be able to everyone happy. Personally if the job still had the learning and overworld leveling aspect and full control over what we could pick in premade groups I would be fine since those are the aspects I enjoy. Though I view this simply as side content akin to an elaborate mini game.

If I had faith in SE being able to combine the current aspects I enjoy with it being a full job I would be 1000% down for a rework since that would simply mean more options. I just do not have faith in them reworking it and I fear they would break the few aspects I and maybe many others enjoy.

For me a rework is meant to fix something broken for me the content itself is not broken. Though I will admit tying it to a job and using class identity was a poor excuse but despite it being such I have had some of great fun and wish to see the concept expanded upon. Sure I wish they could expand upon both aspects I just do not see that as a possibility if it was I see no reason for them to not have done so from the start. So If I had to choose I would pick expand on the limited aspect.

A honestly a big improvement would just be letting BLU use the Duty Finder.

Primal skills will still be a hassle to get, but at least you'll get poetics with every Leviathan HM attempt.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Fire Angon is actually important because it's one of only two offensive skills that has a cast time of one second (The other being Sharpened Knife) and should be used whenever you need to avoid clipping from using OGCD skills.

Not to mention it's a target-centered AoE vs. a proximity AoE that causes paralysis, so its applications really aren't the same at all.

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My bad, i had it in my head that mind blast also had a 1 second cast time, so yeah fire agnon is the second best weaving tool. All other points still stand about abilities though, you still only need 1 of each kind out of the mass of BLU abilities to be optimal rendering the other abilities of same potency/cast time pointless

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Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

How are both sides being selfish when one side says to keep BLU as mostly unsatisfying and the other wants something that makes both happy?

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no side wants something that makes both sides happy. Making blu into a class that fits easily into a dps raid framework requires them to remove or nerf most of the skills, change the overall design philosophy.


there are some things people dont realize about the uniformity of normal class design.


Every class has a fairly similar amount of skills
Every class will prune skills that are too similar
Every class must fit into 1 of 3 roles and be incompetent at the other two roles
Every class needs to have a similar power level within its role
Every class must be expected to have many of its role defining abilities based primarily on its level.



you cannot make blue fit into this framework without some major reworks, prune most of its skills, change its aquisition method, removing or nerfing its cross role style.


And before you say, they could have both, no that is not likely, the game design likes to unify things and have purity of purpose and uniform design frameworks for its normal jobs. They wont want skills to operate differently in duty finder,and differently outside of duty finder. They are not going to balance, design and maintain 2 different things for blue

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

I play it as a DPS because it is a DPS. One heal does not make a healer, else PLD and RDM would be healers as well. Neither does pulling aggro and able to take the heat for a few moments make you a tank, else RDM, SMN, and WHM would be tanks too.

Also, variety doesn't matter if most of them don't work. This isn't even bringing the 1:1 skill copies like Plainscracker and Flame Thrower.

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As an extra thought not directed specifically at you but as a general statement, being able to clear content as 4 BLU or even 24 BLU isn't that indicative of the job being OP as people are always doing those kinds of challenges as other jobs as well. BLUs solo ability is completely reliant on White Wind and it is funny to see the moment that other jobs get a self-heal, they too can do gimmicky challenges like 8 Tank Alex Savage or 24 RDM Ridorana Lighthouse.

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blue is better at the one job team, because blue is built with the ability to manage itself, whereas other jobs are built to need other roles to do survive.


you are comparing, blues pure tankability, and pure heals with pure tanks and pure heals, but thats not the framework blu operates in, or is designed in. Is blu tankiness and variety of weird abilities enough to take on bosses with other jobs of that type?


yes. and thats one of things that makes blue very unique. Its not designed such that 1 blue replaces a whm, but 2-3 blues? yeah. Its not designed to be a pure tank, but various blues handling hate as it comes and doing different things as the team needs in the fight? yeah. When me and 2 other firends were 3 manning level 50 dungeons on blue, one was not tanking the whole time, or healing the whole time, we were using whatever abilities we needed at the time. Switching on and off defense based on need, white winding when a firend was in danger, stunning or silencing big skills. Tail screweing mini bosses


It was fun, it was a different grouping paradigm, and its something other classes will not be doing in that way because of the purity of their role designs.





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and as for the reskins, have you ever conceived that this is only phase 1 of blue, as yoshida said, the welcome to blue phase, and they may get access to more skills and abilities that make using various elements or weaknesses more important.


a skill design like observe: allow blue to take advantage of monsters hidden weakness. would basically make the great variety of its skills incredibly useful. Unlocking stun weakness on 1 monster, or fire weakness on another.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

And Damage wise Eruption and Feather rain are the exact same, Lightning and landslide are the exact same. Literally no difference whatsoever.

It really is just line, cone, or circle based aoe, take your pick.

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Well, Mountain Buster is actually worse than shock strike, as its physical damage, so it doesn't get buffed by peculiar light which is up at the same time.

Feather Rain is also actually stronger then Eruption as its DoT component gets boosted by spell speed (Though not by much...).

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Originally Posted by Physic

blue is better at the one job team, because blue is built with the ability to manage itself, whereas other jobs are built to need other roles to do survive.


you are comparing, blues pure tankability, and pure heals with pure tanks and pure heals, but thats not the framework blu operates in, or is designed in. Is blu tankiness and variety of weird abilities enough to take on bosses with other jobs of that type?


yes. and thats one of things that makes blue very unique. Its not designed such that 1 blue replaces a whm, but 2-3 blues? yeah. Its not designed to be a pure tank, but various blues handling hate as it comes and doing different things as the team needs in the fight? yeah. When me and 2 other firends were 3 manning level 50 dungeons on blue, one was not tanking the whole time, or healing the whole time, we were using whatever abilities we needed at the time. Switching on and off defense based on need, white winding when a firend was in danger, stunning or silencing big skills. Tail screweing mini bosses


It was fun, it was a different grouping paradigm, and its something other classes will not be doing in that way because of the purity of their role designs.





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and as for the reskins, have you ever conceived that this is only phase 1 of blue, as yoshida said, the welcome to blue phase, and they may get access to more skills and abilities that make using various elements or weaknesses more important.


a skill design like observe: allow blue to take advantage of monsters hidden weakness. would basically make the great variety of its skills incredibly useful. Unlocking stun weakness on 1 monster, or fire weakness on another.

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Big backpedal from "BLU has better AOE healing than WHM," or my favourite "More surviveability than a tank."

Now it's multiple BLU equals one non-DPS job which is what BLU at its core is. A DPS.

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Originally Posted by Physic

Every class has a fairly similar amount of skills
Every class will prune skills that are too similar
Every class must fit into 1 of 3 roles and be incompetent at the other two roles
Every class needs to have a similar power level within its role
Every class must be expected to have many of its role defining abilities based primarily on its level.

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-BLU can only take 24 skills anyway. It already has a similar amount to what other jobs have.
-It can keep redundant skills for masked carnival/flavor.
-BLU is already the DPS role. It doesn't have the tools to properly tank or heal. It can't do tank swaps and it can't single target heal or heal a party from low HP. If a party gets smacked by hell wind or a similar skill, they are screwed if both healers are BLUs. It is already incompetent as anything other than a DPS.
-Having similar power to other jobs is a non-issue and is literally preferred. Right now it is underpowered. BLU would be amazing as the caster version of ninja and would bring some cool variety to meta comps.
-BLU is already required to have certain skills to progress in job quests. It's already a thing.

Hell, a comp of NIN, DRG, BLU, SMN would be lit.

Even just a SCH and get some sick Water Cannon crits with Chain and whatever buffs BLU applies.

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Originally Posted by Anesteria

Oh but Physic. None of it matters.

All of what you're saying falls apart when you say it's what they wanted, because this wasn't really the aim. It was a cheap excuse for content. People have been asking for BLU to be available for a long time, but they NEVER envisioned a "limited job" system because it didn't even exist. SE was the arbiter of its own demise.

Even then BLU is different in meaningless ways, and will forever remain so for as long as it's going to lag behind, and IT IS going to happen with this system. So it's all just going to be a vapid experience no matter how much this supposed "variety" (that doesn't exist) is going to be perpetuated.

If I have to be honest, it is beyond me how people can support the limited job system as is. Do they yearn to see their favourite jobs being butchered for self-defeating purposes?
Again, ask yourself the question if this problem would have existed if BLU were to be implemented as a full job from the beginning.

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Jobs have already had to make many sacrifices to fit into the FFXIV framework


limited jobs dont have this same limitation, so yes, i would be excited to see my favorite jobs as limited jobs.


I wish there was a limited monk class that was a brusier, with use of counter, and a more interesting fight system. Perhaps with an entirely different means of learning skills, and a goal oriented progression. Throw in some button combo based skills, like sabin had in ff6.


There are improvements they need to make,



1) Something to be gained when you do finally get teams, or groups with friends.

2) Other purposes and content, basically a reason to play the class outside of basic progression, and whatever hyper specific content the limited job has.

3) Benefit to not being carried in almost all content.


if they iron out these flaws, i think limited jobs will be excellent at providing alternate gameplay styles, and making use of different forms of content, without seeming too separated and pointless.

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Originally Posted by Physic

There are improvements they need to make,



1) Something to be gained when you do finally get teams, or groups with friends.

2) Other purposes and content, basically a reason to play the class outside of basic progression, and whatever hyper specific content the limited job has.

3) Benefit to not being carried in almost all content.


if they iron out these flaws, i think limited jobs will be excellent at providing alternate gameplay styles, and making use of different forms of content, without seeming too separated and pointless.

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I've been thinking of ideas like those to improve on the experience and I've come up with similar suggestions.

Give the BLU parties incentives to team up. This can include higher chances of learning spells, unique achievements that will result in rewards like say the all-tank parties. Tokens that you can turn in for loot. Etc, etc. Something along those lines.

As for more content, I was thinking that if SE decides to add more limited jobs, they should consolidate them under their own roof. Someone mentioned Disciples of Lore, which I sorta liked. That can work.
Under that new category each limited job will receive a shared content that only they can do, along side their niche content. BLU will get more Carnival, BST gets its own Monster Arena, PUP gets its own Puppet Theater, Mime gets... I don't know, an extensive training on how to be less creepy. And they can all take part in something Eureka-like (gasp and shock).

Pretty realistic goals I would say.

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Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu

Hell, a comp of NIN, DRG, BLU, SMN would be lit.

Even just a SCH and get some sick Water Cannon crits with Chain and whatever buffs BLU applies.

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This seems like a really fun party comp. Stacking Trick, Pec light, and contagion, with the crit buffs would make smn throw out some crazy deeps, even if pec light was nerfed. could also lead to some different play, like paladins opening with req to holy spirt spam in the line up, drks making use of dark passenger, great possibilities for magic heavy comps.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

This seems like a really fun party comp. Stacking Trick, Pec light, and contagion, with the crit buffs would make smn throw out some crazy deeps, even if pec light was nerfed. could also lead to some different play, like paladins opening with req to holy spirt spam in the line up, drks making use of dark passenger, great possibilities for magic heavy comps.

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yeah, but they dont want blue warping the high level new content metas, so they would have to nerf peculiar light to be in line with blm magic debuff. they might make it the same effect so it doesnt stack, like slashing buff from ninja/marauder. They would also have to balance blu overall dps a bit lower to make up for utility, and non selfish skills, like ninja, and brd.

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Originally Posted by Physic

yeah, but they dont want blue warping the high level new content metas, so they would have to nerf peculiar light to be in line with blm magic debuff. they might make it the same effect so it doesnt stack, like slashing buff from ninja/marauder. They would also have to balance blu overall dps a bit lower to make up for utility, and non selfish skills, like ninja, and brd.

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Them not wanting to do it isn't really a good enough excuse really when there's no good reason as to why not. Also what BLM magic debuff? Literally just changing peculiar light would tune BLU's dps to where it should be, as its not crazy high in the first place and the pec light window accounts for a sizeable chunk of its deeps, however they don't "have to balance blu overall dps a bit lower" because jobs arn't balanced around their level 50 incarnation. RDM does the most damage at level 50 by a decent margin, but by level 70 its fine, BLU would likely be the same.

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Originally Posted by Physic

no side wants something that makes both sides happy. Making blu into a class that fits easily into a dps raid framework requires them to remove or nerf most of the skills, change the overall design philosophy.


there are some things people dont realize about the uniformity of normal class design.


Every class has a fairly similar amount of skills
Every class will prune skills that are too similar
Every class must fit into 1 of 3 roles and be incompetent at the other two roles
Every class needs to have a similar power level within its role
Every class must be expected to have many of its role defining abilities based primarily on its level.



you cannot make blue fit into this framework without some major reworks, prune most of its skills, change its aquisition method, removing or nerfing its cross role style.


And before you say, they could have both, no that is not likely, the game design likes to unify things and have purity of purpose and uniform design frameworks for its normal jobs. They wont want skills to operate differently in duty finder,and differently outside of duty finder. They are not going to balance, design and maintain 2 different things for blue

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It seems like you really dislike how normal jobs work, I gotta ask, do you just sit around on BLU all day and run the same 4 year old content over and over again?

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Originally Posted by Physic

Jobs have already had to make many sacrifices to fit into the FFXIV framework :continued:>.

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It was perfectly possible to have what you wanted without the limited job system, yet by your previous posts you seem to rely on this imaginary balance which makes your point self-defeating.

Furthermore, what you are detailing about "limited jobs" is not what limited jobs are right now, or what they will be in the future following SE's purported plans and faulty logic, despite their vague statements.
The changes you propose are already contradicting their stated objectives in regards to the limited job system, which means that what you want aren't limited jobs but an entirely different beast.

BLU with "solo play" as objective to be integral to the limited job system. -> X abilities require groups, and raid content at the maximum allowed level also requires a group.

Expectations that SHOULD come with "solo play" as objective SHOULD be reflected with players playing solo only and being allowed to do so on the content they're locked in. -> Players still group up to play because they want/have to, indicating players want to play freely and that the system is flawed from its conception since the game is a... MMORPG.

Alleged expectations from Yoshi-P's interview: The expectations were apparently that people were going to disregard the solo aspect anyway, and grouping up was par for the course. -> Answer given only in hindsight after the fact has happened ignoring the criticism that people already saw at the announcement of "limited jobs". In addition, SE undermining its own philosophy as a result of feedback = Necessity to fit the narrative after the facts leading to... lies or alternatively, the beginning of backpedaling and uncertainty.

Nothing was sacrificed because changes to jobs happen all the time in all the different games, if the game itself demanded such changes, so it should be. The limited job system however was not mandated by the game, but by the company (more likely Yoshi-P + certain elements) because of X reasons that are, as some others have already suggested and are likely to be true, to market Shadowbringers and to give a treat to the dog (yes what Cid implied in FFXII).

It's reminiscent of what happened with WoW. Blizzard announced the Allied Races at a time where BFA was the only thing to expect in terms of content, but the wait was still quite long, so they added 4 distinct races of the 6 showcased. But there was this difference in effort and commitment, in that the races were not locked, they could be used like any other race they simply had to be earned, AND more are going to be added in packs of 2. BLU simply remained a tool.

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Originally Posted by Physic

yeah, but they dont want blue warping the high level new content metas, so they would have to nerf peculiar light to be in line with blm magic debuff. they might make it the same effect so it doesnt stack, like slashing buff from ninja/marauder. They would also have to balance blu overall dps a bit lower to make up for utility, and non selfish skills, like ninja, and brd.

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This isn't a TCG where the creators can curate a metagame. While some jobs are meant to interact with one another such as DRG with BRD/MCH or DRK/PLD and any job that offers Slashing Debuff, the metagame of FFXIV and likely any MMO is largely done by the playerbase given how they're the ones doing all the number crunching.

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Originally Posted by MrKimper

It seems like you really dislike how normal jobs work, I gotta ask, do you just sit around on BLU all day and run the same 4 year old content over and over again?

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its not about disliking it, its fine for what it is. It has good sides to its design paradigms as well.


but it also limits some good design choices. Thats why a small number of limited jobs is a good idea to me. Because when i want the normal ffxiv experience i got like 20 jobs to do it on, but i want a change up, until blue, there wasnt much, i am looking forward to even more. Not saying they should stop making normal jobs, just that variety is very good thing imo

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Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu

This isn't a TCG where the creators can curate a metagame. While some jobs are meant to interact with one another such as DRG with BRD/MCH or DRK/PLD and any job that offers Slashing Debuff, the metagame of FFXIV and likely any MMO is largely done by the playerbase given how they're the ones doing all the number crunching.

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this is an extremely curated meta game, moreso than cards, they change things live, and retroactively change content that doesnt line up with their intentions. They also curate it before we even see it, in their initial designs. And you best be;ieve the people who create this game number crunch as much or more than the playerbase. They write the equations that we try to figure out.

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Originally Posted by Anesteria

Iclipped for chars

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limited jobs are not solo jobs, limited jobs are jobs that design/concept dont fit within the standard ffxiv content framework


just because blue is more solo oriented than other jobs, doesnt mean it wasnt supposed to have any party content at all.


"
Polygon: While Blue Mage was released to be a solo-oriented class, players have been partying up more than ever to collect skills, clear dungeons, etc. How was the release of Blue Mage different from what you initially expected it to be?
Naoki Yoshida: The release of Blue Mage did not fall far from my expectations — the job was not meant to be subject to the standard rules of FF14 gameplay that players are used to, but rather it was meant to give players freedom in the way they approach the job. That is why it is a “limited job” only in the sense of content matching; there is no limit to the type of play style, and that was the initial concept behind it."




i believe this is the quote you are refering to, he clearly says here, the concept behind a limited job is not that it is solo, but that it breaks the general rules of FFXIV. I mean, you choose to believe he had no idea what is going on, but i highly doubt they didnt know they didnt want all aspects to be solo, its an MMO, played with people, its definitely going to have some form of team up potential.


"Yoshida: The process of developing one of these jobs doesn’t start with us asking ourselves what will be the next limited job. We are, however, mindful of two things: ensuring both that the job or job type we implement will be enjoyed by the players, and that it will make for an interesting and fun experience. During this process, if we come to a potential job that we feel may not necessarily fit well within standard party gameplay, we will then consider whether or not we make it a limited job."


another quote further saying limited jobs are defined by being outside the standard party gameplay rules. I fully believe this, because blue mage and limited jobs was partially a result of them seeing, with rdm, that they could not fit every design concept they wanted to within the ffxiv standard party framework. They came up with a compelling class, but its a bit far conceptually from red mage of old. The limited job concept allows them to build things outside that framework when they have ideas that work better outside that framework.


Yes, its the first one, so it needs some iteration, some refining, but its a great idea which imo can only add more to the game in the long run.

Physic he did not deny it. He purposefully used ambiguous language which I explained with what I stated earlier (multiple times even). To a question like that, the answer would be very simple if you wanted to make your actual intentions known.
You respond with:

"The release went as planned because BLU was NEVER/NOT meant to be a "solo" job as people have been claiming it to be. It was meant to be X and Y, etc."

If anything this entire thing should lend credence to what is being said about BLU being used as a tool. And I do not at all think that he didn't know what he was doing, on the contrary I essentially stated that he knew VERY WELL what he was doing if you read the part concerning SE's objectives.

However, you do shed light on the issues presented before us.
Because this would all mean that:

A) SE made a mistake and did not know what they were doing (as you implied), but I do not think at all this is the case. They should have learned with 1.0 to not release unfinished content.
B) BLU was used as a tool, a treat to keep the playerbase at bay, as it's been suggested multiple times on this thread. What this means is that it's not a sincere look at the class and what Yoshi-P is saying is a lie, thus your point crumbles.
C) This is nothing more than a test to gauge the reactions and finetune the job so that it may transition into an advanced job proper like the Red/Black Mage. But thus far this is the more outlandish possibility.

But a priori, what you suggest or Yoshida might say, is nothing more than a poor excuse. Jobs change according to the game, it's what happens, and what he says right there, can once again, and please this time answer:

Taking into account that people who liked BLU have been asking for this job to be made available for a long time in FFXIV.
Would, the people who actually cared about BLU, have been upset at this job NOT being made into a "limited job" because anything else would not have respected the purported "enjoyment" they could get from the job?

Before you read the answer I would like you to actually stop and think about it.

NO > Because it is physically and logically impossible for that to happen. The "limited job" part was not something that existed before BLU or even before the presentation was announced. Which makes what Yoshi-P says about enjoyment complete nonsense. People would have enjoyed the class regardless of the "limited job" system because had BLU been introduced as any other job, people wouldn't be complaining about its existence as people do with the limited job, but they would complain about other issues that affect ALL the classes in ALL the games.
This is nothing more than a poor excuse to either keep BLU out for lack of will to put effort (and yet decide to introduce something completely new like Gunbreaker) or personal reasons from the dev team that we do not know of.

YES > Please explain the mental gymnastics on this logically impossible feat.

>No limit to the initial playstyle
>Is garbage as anything except for the role it's slotted in

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Originally Posted by Physic

this is an extremely curated meta game, moreso than cards, they change things live, and retroactively change content that doesnt line up with their intentions. They also curate it before we even see it, in their initial designs. And you best be;ieve the people who create this game number crunch as much or more than the playerbase. They write the equations that we try to figure out.

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Okay, now if that were true why are there groups that blitz through content via disregarding mechanics via Limit Breaks or even skipping them via Limit Breaks and none of that content being changed to negate that? If there was a curated metagame here, that would be the only viable composition as what happens in TCGs where only one or in an especially diverse metagame three decks can compete.

Instead the one (somewhat flexible) composition only applies to blazing through content faster than intended if run by people who know what they're doing while basically literally any composition as long as people are even somewhat competent can clear content even while disregarding how things were intended to be done.

No changes were ever made to Byakko EX when it was (and even still is because people can't push buttons) done through an unintended method. Same with O11S where one mechanic like halfway through the fight is totally disregarded via tank Limit Break. There's probably an intended way for it to be done, but who knows if anyone knows how. Same with Optimized Meteor & Optimized Saggitarius Arrow in the first half of O12S. There's an intended way to do it and then there's the way discovered by the playerbase that has not being changed.

Another example of jobs meant to interact is WHM and SCH with the two complimenting each others kits. Instead WHM is left to the wayside in favour of AST. WHM is still viable as is every other job because of how the game is designed, but the metagame is a bug rather than a feature.

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Originally Posted by Anesteria

Physic he did not deny it. He purposefully used ambiguous language which I explained with what I stated earlier (multiple times even). To a question like that, the answer would be very simple if you wanted to make your actual intentions known.
You respond with:

"The release went as planned because BLU was NEVER/NOT meant to be a "solo" job as people have been claiming it to be. It was meant to be X and Y, etc."

If anything this entire thing should lend credence to what is being said about BLU being used as a tool. And I do not at all think that he didn't know what he was doing, on the contrary I essentially stated that he knew VERY WELL what he was doing if you read the part concerning SE's objectives.

However, you do shed light on the issues presented before us.
Because this would all mean that:

A) SE made a mistake and did not know what they were doing (as you implied), but I do not think at all this is the case. They should have learned with 1.0 to not release unfinished content.
B) BLU was used as a tool, a treat to keep the playerbase at bay, as it's been suggested multiple times on this thread. What this means is that it's not a sincere look at the class and what Yoshi-P is saying is a lie, thus your point crumbles.
C) This is nothing more than a test to gauge the reactions and finetune the job so that it may transition into an advanced job proper like the Red/Black Mage. But thus far this is the more outlandish possibility.

But a priori, what you suggest or Yoshida might say, is nothing more than a poor excuse. Jobs change according to the game, it's what happens, and what he says right there, can once again, and please this time answer:

Taking into account that people who liked BLU have been asking for this job to be made available for a long time in FFXIV.
Would, the people who actually cared about BLU, have been upset at this job NOT being made into a "limited job" because anything else would not have respected the purported "enjoyment" they could get from the job?

Before you read the answer I would like you to actually stop and think about it.

NO > Because it is physically and logically impossible for that to happen. The "limited job" part was not something that existed before BLU or even before the presentation was announced. Which makes what Yoshi-P says about enjoyment complete nonsense.

YES > Please explain the mental gymnastics on this logically impossible feat.

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most of your implications are not implied at all by the quotes i linked, they may or may not be true, butnothing in the quotes suggest them

a) they knew what they were doing, they didnt put skills in 4-8 man content by accident.
b) they never mention or imply blue was meant to keep players at bay, i am sure it was meant to satisfy players as all content is, but its not like blue was promoted or expected with stormblood
c)when he says this is the starter phase, he clearly says it is to remain limited, he is saying they have a lot of plans for the job, and this is just the beginning. Plans being higher levels, and new content, and expansion of carnivale.

would people have been salty? some would, some wouldnt. There are people salty about rdm, smn etc. There are people who love it. But being a producer/developer isnt simply about fan service. He has to think about and set up things users wouldnt neccessarily think of on their own. He has to be ahead and be thinking about new things, because anything he develops wont hit audiences for 6 months-year later. He has to start projects that wont be fully finished or refined for months after initial release.

blue mage is the result of a realization of some of the limitations in design from standard ffxiv rules. It is however a work in progress, like everything else in a game as a service mmo.

now i will say, for people who want more regular ffxiv jobs, to use in new ffxiv content, blue is a miss. But thats why shadowbringers is coming out in 4 months. Anyhow its definitely the case that blue needs more reason to play it legit , in more situations. So far thats the big flaw of limited i would say. Not enough reason/places/content to explore the job.

OP topic correction
Please make Blue Mage “a” job.
Fixed