What exactly IS a White Mage?

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

You'll have to forgive me if that wasn't the intent of your post, but that is the argument I gleaned from it, and it's not a new argument that's been presented on the forums.

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No, wasn't my intention. I wrote at the end about fixing WHM for end game
Was replying to others about WHM being dead to raiding. My lol to you was over your clever 10 character limit reply. I like that :)

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Originally Posted by Mansion

I was only joking, but your message brings another topic in actually.
Basically, White Mage is the first healer in the game (the only one that starts at level 1). Its design is straightforward. This button heals one guy, this button heals several people, this button throws a stone at a foe. We get it.

So yes, it is a good job to learn healing, it is a good job to do roulettes with, it does not require a mastering of the game's overall gameplay and system to keep your party alive (I'm exagerating on this one but you get my point, SCH needs a bit more optimization by design). By this logic, every job is more or less fine. Some are more complicated than others, but they all make sense in a ground level (which is normal mode / dungeons etc.) comparison.

But

Some of the "easier" jobs also do a great job outside of that ground level. RDM is arguably the easiest caster, if not the easiest DPS. But it has a strong identity, a simple but fun dual rotation between casting and rapier poking, high numbers, support tools. If you find more damage and healing too boring, you can put something else in for the two lily activation buttons.
PLD is in my opinion the "easiest" tank, in the way that you see which tools build agro, which tools hit harder, and which tools allow you to survive great damage. But in the raid scene, it does extraordinarily well with another tank. It gives room for optimizing DPS output. I see people coming with the DRK argument so I'm telling in advance I don't play tank that much, and not at all in Savage content so I won't go further on that topic. My point is that each tanking job is enjoyable in casual content and high end raid.
All these jobs have a nice progression through their own leveling (even if it is clunky for some of them, namely MCH).

But WHM has nothing to offer at its lvl 70 peak, compared to ALL other jobs (and not tjust the lillies). It remains simply "push here to heal and push here to DPS if you feel like it". I think the argument actually starts here, because WHM does not get anything significantly interesting the higher it goes in level, and in endgame -while still enjoyable, it's up to everyone's taste- it feels really poor compared to the other healers, and to other jobs in general. It's not even about clipping, weaving options and potencies; it's the overall job design. And yet it is the most popular healer outside of Extreme / Savage.
I understand the devs' position, because you can assume WHM is ok based on the figures of how many people play it anyway, outside of the raiding arena. It's still unfair that the job is awkward in extreme/savage content because they won't touch it for some reason.

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I get it. I've said something similar: WHM is much easier to get into/more accessible. No managing cards or aetherflow or pets. That's "what it is". Unadorned and straightforward.

That's also why the lily gauge feels so tacked on by appearing so far into leveling. There *is no* WHM minigame to manage that relies on some special resource (aetherflow, pets, cards). SE seems to acknowledge that this is "what white mage is" by making lilies nice but optional and ignorable, especially for non-raiders. That keeps the "plain, simple, powerful" theme intact. Confession stacks don't even get a gauge, and outside of less forgiving content they are also nice but easily ignorable.

WHM can fit into prog by offering some great OGCD heals useful in optimization, and the job still does good damage, but it doesn't have anything engaging on the same level as AST or SCH. Which again takes it back to its overall niche in the game. If you see it that way, then lilies and confession stacks make sense -- something that might help in top tier end-game but that you might barely notice or use if you aren't optimizing. It's like trying to keep what makes WHM popular but also give a little something for prog.

Really then the issue becomes whether SE can keep the "simple" WHM dream alive for non-prog content (referring to that which isn't extreme, savage, or ultimate) while still giving something for optimizers to play with. How can the job be more useful and engaging at the same time while staying so lean and focused? Useful is easy -- buff their damage a bit so they get the healer dps crown back with no pretenders to the throne. Engaging? That's a little tougher. If you make it more engaging, that typically means adding something to manage which means a more complicated form of gameplay. Stray but a little...

If you give something optional that's too useful, it eventually becomes mandatory. Not useful enough and who cares? Too engaging and now the job is no longer sufficiently simple, not engaging enough and who cares? That's quite the minefield. One option is to buff WHM dps and leave it alone. Those who like it as it is for raiding and such will stick with it and feel more useful. The end. Another options is to tweak the current system with surgical precision.


I'm not a dev nor have I had the time or built up the competence to be an optimizing progger. Having laid out the challenge above, I don't claim to have the most amazing answer. I will probably edit what I type below this point later. I don't have time to flesh it out now. I just want to get the gist started. Others can tell me where and how this is good or bad and how they would thread the WHM needle themselves.

1. Introduce lilies at 30. Let it be part of the job as a whole, not a tacked on after-thought 30+ levels after you unlock the job. But do keep it at just one lily for a while and also feather-weight in impact at first. Get players used to it but don't make it too heavy. Let the number of lilies and the impact they bring increase slowly by spreading out the increases of both.

2a. Have lilies give something simple to understand and use. For example the option to either get a personal dps buff or a personal healing buff. Click one button to buff dps, another to buff healing. These are OGCD clicks. Once you have three, you can cast them one at a time or all at once. That is, you could click and wait for a short cool-down. Click-click and wait for a medium cool-down. Or click three at once and wait for a looooooooooooong cool-down. Once you click one type of buff, the other is unavailable until the one you clicked comes off of its cool-down.

~or~

2b. Same as 2a but you only get to press a button once, so you have to decide whether to wait until you get more lilies and you always have to use all lilies at once.

Decide if this should be for DoTs (Aero) or burst (Stone) or both for the dps boost.

Decide if this should be for GCDs or OGCDs or both for the healing boost.

3. Reconsider whether Cure and Cure II are the only ways to earn lilies given #2. Adjust accordingly.

4. Add something small and simple to the lily gauge to show confession stacks are available that glimmer when they are about to expire. This could be starts over the lilies, or roots, or whatever. Plenary Indulgence seems useful for heavy healing but seeing a gauge, even a modest, unobtrusive gauge, would help.

5. Do something useful with Fluid Aura. It's great for levels 1-20 in overland for new players, but then...? Let's get with Fluid Aura II at level 25 or 30. Either in addition to our as a replacement for Fluid Aura I. Maybe it could be an AoE bind with a vuln up debuff for wind and ice damage. That gives some extra utility to WHM and ups their Aero III ticks (and the ice damage during the mana recovery phase for BLM -- even ice(-only) mages will see an uptick in their dps).

This keeps it relatively simple but allows you to manage lilies (if you want) by choosing how and when to spend them. Fluid Aura 2 gives a bit more utility in trash pulls. Yes WHM has Largesse but now they would have a second healing boost cool-down for emergencies. Yes WHM has Cleric stance but now they would have another burst window.

Even though WHM can be considered the training wheels of healing, being able to keep that interest in a job is important, and most of that enjoyment is the job actions themselves. Just having buttons to push for the sake of pushing and not being rewarded significantly for it(Lilies being something that is against how WHM should be played vs. others’ job gauges which enhance gameplay) is not good job design. If there’s no flow* to it, it’ll wind up being not fun for a lot of people in both Casual and High-end content.

*Flow relates to the fluency of GCDs and oGCDs when used in a rotation or mid-fight.

Nothing exists in a bubble. If you're starting the game out on your first job, watching someone play at a higher skill level can be extremely influential. There's a sense of "Wow, I can't believe that we were capable of doing that." In order for this to happen, the core gameplay has to be simple enough for a beginner to grasp, but engaging enough that there are still players who have dedicated themselves to mastering it at higher levels.

This stuff filters down. If you look up and you see better players switching off once they reach a certain skill level, you're going to do the same thing. Why practice the job when you know that you'll be expected to eventually swap when you become good enough?

WHM's problem is that AST is a better WHM. You have to pull these two jobs in different directions and give them room to excel independently of each other.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

WHM's problem is that AST is a better WHM. You have to pull these two jobs in different directions and give them room to excel independently of each other.

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That's how you summarize my idea in a short sentence while I rambled around in a wall of text haha, I need to work on that. Thanks for pointing the core idea. But essentially, yes. And I would add you need more variety in the overall healing gameplay in general so that you leave more room for each healer to build its identity and utility.

I just can't understand the "WHM is for beginners" argument. At level 70, coming on soon to 80 you aren't a beginner anymore. There isn't any other beginner job in the game, even the easier jobs like RDM, PLD and SAM have ways to really make themselves shine and be useful to your group, why would they make a single job for beginners and every other job in the game advanced? It doesn't make sense.

It's really just a failed identity. They want WHM to be this pure healer, but it can't happen because they also want every other healer to heal just as good as WHM and design their content based on this. It doesn't work and I wish they would move on instead of trying to force it to work.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I just can't understand the "WHM is for beginners" argument. At level 70, coming on soon to 80 you aren't a beginner anymore. There isn't any other beginner job in the game, even the easier jobs like RDM, PLD and SAM have ways to really make themselves shine and be useful to your group, why would they make a single job for beginners and every other job in the game advanced? It doesn't make sense.

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Yeah that's exactly what I said. Thinking about it (though I don't have the data), I think the devs "fear" somehow that making it too complicated would be dissuading casual players healing in level 70 roulettes... that's the only thing that comes to my mind, and it is far from acceptable, as we said before there are other easy jobs that do well when it comes to identity and high end content.
I realize I'm taking a lot of time to think about it... I'm going to the Fan Fest in February, I'll try if I can sneak the question in, during a session.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

Yeah that's exactly what I said. Thinking about it (though I don't have the data), I think the devs "fear" somehow that making it too complicated would be dissuading casual players healing in level 70 roulettes... that's the only thing that comes to my mind, and it is far from acceptable, as we said before there are other easy jobs that do well when it comes to identity and high end content.
I realize I'm taking a lot of time to think about it... I'm going to the Fan Fest in February, I'll try if I can sneak the question in, during a session.

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Yes, as I described a little ealier, it seems SE wants to keep WHM simple and easy to access even at cap, hence lilies and confession stacks added late in the leveling process that are ignorable (confession doesn't even get a gauge). In adding those late extras to WHM they appear to want to avoid introducing much complexity while adding a little something extra for prog players/optimizers. People who only do non-prog content and/or play infrequently/casually can use WHM as easy-to-get-(back)-into job for healing, while the other healing jobs offer more complexity and management of resources. I have dropped in and out of the game a lot over the past 2 1/2 year, and can say that WHM being so basic and easy to use has really helped me jump back in and given me a cushion for making mistakes and some confidence trying new content because it's easy to remember/relearn/use all the way up to the current expert roulette.

Not arguing whether or not this is how SE should approach it, just that this looks like their goal. Which again I go into in a wall of text above for elaboration on the logic of such an approach (again not supporting or refuting it). Something to consider: if there are enough people who like having a healing job that is so simple and accessible, why would SE see it as "unacceptable"? Does every job have to have extra bells and whistles for optimizers? From what I gather is SE's perspective, there are two healer jobs with more complexity/management minigames/options for optimization and one with less of all of that to meet different preferences and skill levels. Many players say AST is WHM with cards. True, you can heal on AST just fine never drawing a single card. But you will be under pressure to do so and to do so knowledgeably and effectively. Anything too strong or useful added to WHM in terms of complexity/management minigames/options for optimization will become an expectation, not a take-it-or-leave-it proposition. Even Holy spam is often seen as a requirement and that's not complex at all.

I see the WHM design philosophy as being a nice option for the casual player, the part-timer, the person wanting an easier-mode for whatever reason, the player who can't be bothered but still queues roulettes as healer, etc. Again not arguing whether or not SE should change their approach. Just why WHM might be in (and mostly stay in) the niche it occupies.

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Originally Posted by tinythinker

5. Do something useful with Fluid Aura. It's great for levels 1-20 in overland for new players, but then...? Let's get with Fluid Aura II at level 25 or 30. Either in addition to our as a replacement for Fluid Aura I. Maybe it could be an AoE bind with a vuln up debuff for wind and ice damage. That gives some extra utility to WHM and ups their Aero III ticks (and the ice damage during the mana recovery phase for BLM -- even ice(-only) mages will see an uptick in their dps).

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That would be great also for Red Mages (it would be a damage gain for VerAero) and Summoners (Garuda Egi would thank you for that). Monks also can be augmented also with Fists of Wind, Tornado Kick, Wind Tackle and Riddle of Wind damage bonus, Ninjas with Aeolian Edge and Hyoton, Bards with Windbite and Stormbite... Almost all of them wind moves.

If WHM gain that ability to buff wind and ice damage, he would be a part of a Caster META, being part of a WHM/AST (because Balance is too good to ignore) or WHM/SCH (because critlo is too good to ignore) healer comp just because Fluid Aura II would be too good to ignore. And that could help to bring some DPS to the stage, such as monks (that have a plenty number of wind moves) or Black Mages.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

That would be great also for Red Mages (it would be a damage gain for VerAero) and Summoners (Garuda Egi would thank you for that). Monks also can be augmented also with Fists of Wind, Tornado Kick, Wind Tackle and Riddle of Wind damage bonus, Ninjas with Aeolian Edge and Hyoton, Bards with Windbite and Stormbite... Almost all of them wind moves.

If WHM gain that ability to buff wind and ice damage, he would be a part of a Caster META, being part of a WHM/AST (because Balance is too good to ignore) or WHM/SCH (because critlo is too good to ignore) healer comp just because Fluid Aura II would be too good to ignore. And that could help to bring some DPS to the stage, such as monks (that have a plenty number of wind moves) or Black Mages.

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Forgot about RDM's Veraero and SMN using Garuda Egi. That would be a good synergy. Wasn't familiar enough with MNK to see a connection there, but yeah I figured getting a boost for the Umbral phase for BLM would be appreciated.

I think they actually tend to get rid of elemental aspected damage / resistance. Magical / Physical is more than enough, if you want to play with buffs and debuffs.
There's more to that to be useful in a party : damage mitigation, damage down of enemy, damage up of party, vuln up as we said, party buff (any stat like crit, DH, haste), agro manipulation tools, mana regen...

Adding elemental buffs just moves the problem elsewhere, you break one meta to create another.

I don't think that difficulty is the issue. For one, it's extremely subjective. If you read the forums and reddit at the start of this expansion, you'd think that WAR was the most difficult job ever created in an MMO. But that's just because they shouted the loudest.

Actually, it's less an issue of easy vs. difficult as it is straightforward vs. complex. If you wanted to make AST more complex, you'd have to explore ideas like making them using time to reverse damage à la Tracer. But that doesn't mean that the less weird jobs aren't entitled to their own identity.

The problem with a lot of the new systems in Stormblood is that they were added purely for the sake of introducing a job-specific gauge. It makes sense for something like WAR, which never really used MP to begin with. Sure, give them a gauge. Give NIN a gauge for tracking Huton. WHM has always had a gauge, even dating back to ARR. It's called an MP bar. Resource management is a thing they've always done. Lilies feel superfluous because they're there to be there.

Every job deserves to excel at least at one thing. On a job like WAR, for example, Fell Cleave is sacrosanct. You aren't allowed to out cleave Fell Cleave. There would be riots. You can't let a job deal out a better buff than Balance. You can't out trick Trick Attack. So what's WHM's schtick?

Ordinarily, I'd look at something like Benediction and say, there. Instant cast, max HP. It doesn't get better than that. But everyone and their dog has oGCD instant cast heals. I might look at regens and say, there. But SCH has Eos, which is the very best regen that ever was. And they have better shields. Why heal something when you can toss up a shield as a preemptive heal? It doesn't decay over time. You don't even have to be particularly clever about the timing. Sometimes, party-wide shields last most of the way through to the next boss jump, at which point you can just reapply them again.

What does WHM offer your group that no other job does? If you don't have a clear and immediate answer to the question, that's an identity problem. And chances are, it's because there are two or three extremely bloated jobs out there that are stifling everyone else's shot at having a unique identity.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I don't think that difficulty is the issue. For one, it's extremely subjective. If you read the forums and reddit at the start of this expansion, you'd think that WAR was the most difficult job ever created in an MMO. But that's just because they shouted the loudest.

Actually, it's less an issue of easy vs. difficult as it is straightforward vs. complex. If you wanted to make AST more complex, you'd have to explore ideas like making them using time to reverse damage à la Tracer. But that doesn't mean that the less weird jobs aren't entitled to their own identity.

The problem with a lot of the new systems in Stormblood is that they were added purely for the sake of introducing a job-specific gauge. It makes sense for something like WAR, which never really used MP to begin with. Sure, give them a gauge. Give NIN a gauge for tracking Huton. WHM has always had a gauge, even dating back to ARR. It's called an MP bar. Resource management is a thing they've always done. Lilies feel superfluous because they're there to be there.

Every job deserves to excel at least at one thing. On a job like WAR, for example, Fell Cleave is sacrosanct. You aren't allowed to out cleave Fell Cleave. There would be riots. You can't let a job deal out a better buff than Balance. You can't out trick Trick Attack. So what's WHM's schtick?

Ordinarily, I'd look at something like Benediction and say, there. Instant cast, max HP. It doesn't get better than that. But everyone and their dog has oGCD instant cast heals. I might look at regens and say, there. But SCH has Eos, which is the very best regen that ever was. And they have better shields. Why heal something when you can toss up a shield as a preemptive heal? It doesn't decay over time. You don't even have to be particularly clever about the timing. Sometimes, party-wide shields last most of the way through to the next boss jump, at which point you can just reapply them again.

What does WHM offer your group that no other job does? If you don't have a clear and immediate answer to the question, that's an identity problem. And chances are, it's because there are two or three extremely bloated jobs out there that are stifling everyone else's shot at having a unique identity.

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It depends on how people define identity. A few examples:

1. Simple/Straightforward vs. Complex/Involved

2. Thematic elements/gimmicks

3. Unique abilities/effects

3a. Competitive contribution

If you just want a competitive contribution that sets a job apart, WHM could get a dps boost so that you want it for that reason at end-game. Or you could reduce straightforward healing speed/throughput for other healing jobs. Or alter/limit mana recovery options. Make SCH and AST more dependent on their gimmicks/job-specific resources to heal. That could work for SCH because it has Aetherflow stacks and pets that are directly involved in healing. Fiddle with shield strength or duration. Lessen potency of some abilities and boost others. Etc. Give a clear distinction with strenths and weaknesses. AST though has cards, which have no direct role in healing.

If you want a more clearly defined theme or gimmick, you would need to do something different with lilies or replace them with something else. Or dump lilies and let WHM have a mana battery crown with other healing jobs needing more careful mana management.

If you just want more things to do/manage, you need to find a way to use lilies or some other resource in more engaging ways.

I've seen replies referring to each of these in terms of discussing identity. Lots of ideas of what that should mean in terms of making WHM unique and desirable. I don't claim to have great ideas on what would make WHM better than it is now, but it's interesting to discuss and ponder. I like reading what people want to see.

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My own clumsy, off the top of my head sketch for some of this (if we are concerned with #s 1, 2, and 3 simultaneously)...

1. Add lililes earlier.

2. Give one or two buttons that rely on/consume lilies.

3. Focus on the theme of WHM in the game -- elemental/nature magic -- for designing a unique contribution (because SE isn't going to heavily prune AST and SCH healing and dps just to let WHM stand out).

How this premise plays out can go many ways. To offer a lackluster, unpolished example...

A. Add Fluid Aura II. An AoE bind spell to replace the single-target knockback and bind. To follow up on the elemental theme, have it give an ice/wind vuln debuff. I don't know or worry about what a particular part of the community considers meta, as that always shifts. Some change always recasts what jobs some people think they "have to take". But it would be a nice utility and dps buff. Now WHM has two AoE forms of crowd control (along with the Holy stun), which is something other healing jobs lack. Plus technically Repose I guess for another form of CC. Technically. Maybe that one could be an upgrade as well. Repose II... hmmmm...

B. Have lily consumption tied to the elemental/nature theme. Like "Aspect of Earth", "Aspect of Water", "Aspect of Wind". This could work in two ways: you have a button for each of those, and the number of lilies used up determines the strength of effects from or the duration of staying in a particular Aspect. All three buttons share a cool-down. Alternatively, you have one button and which Aspect you get is determined by how many lilies you use. One of the aspects requires a single lily, another requires two, the final one requires three.

In terms of what Aspects do, that's up in the air. Maybe one or more Aspects affect mobs cc'd by the WHM (leech health, extend duration of cc, etc.). Or something else entirely. So perhaps one Aspect adds an additional effect to cc'd mobs, another provides a group buff (something defensive, maybe), and so on.

C. Have another buff present by default whenever lilies are on the gauge. Maybe you throw Stone faster. Maybe you get a small % extra healing. Dunno. So you have to decide when to hold lilies and when to spend them as per B above.

That gives a unique gimmick and contribution and something to manage but is still not too complex.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

What does WHM offer your group that no other job does? If you don't have a clear and immediate answer to the question, that's an identity problem. And chances are, it's because there are two or three extremely bloated jobs out there that are stifling everyone else's shot at having a unique identity.

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Hit the nail right on the head with this. WHM is lacking in something that is both unique and truly powerful. There is nothing the job has that the other healers can't replicate, it's an awful way to treat a job and I have no idea why people think it's ok.
I get that some people like the simplicity of the job, but that shouldn't mean that it isn't allowed to have an identity.

I like the aspect idea mention above.

Although i would treat it kinda like a bards song combined with AST sects.
Aspect of Water would increase the potency of HoTs.
Wind would increase potency of DoTs.
Earth would increase the effectiveness of...
Protect, make it a WHM exclusive again. Its so neglible as it is, but it could be WHMs USP. Stick it on a cooldown, have it only last a minute, and them WHM becomes the sustained, minor mitigator, instead of the superior situational mitigation of the other two.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I like the aspect idea mention above.

Although i would treat it kinda like a bards song combined with AST sects.
Aspect of Water would increase the potency of HoTs.
Wind would increase potency of DoTs.
Earth would increase the effectiveness of...
Protect, make it a WHM exclusive again. Its so neglible as it is, but it could be WHMs USP. Stick it on a cooldown, have it only last a minute, and them WHM becomes the sustained, minor mitigator, instead of the superior situational mitigation of the other two.

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Just remove Protect altogether. It’s nothing but a hindrance in high-end since all that content is circled around it. By making Protect WHM’s raid Cooldown early on for 10% mitigation(or 5% depending) there’s utility in that.

I would put money on 5.0 protect in PvE finally getting this utility for WHM, or something similar to it. WHM needs both raid dmg mitigation and an increase to pDPS.

#makewhmgreatagain

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Slowly dying?

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sLoWlY DyING
Jeez no its a laid back playstyle compared to my main scholar lol.
Nothing wrong with it. People uses raid, «iT BriNgs NotHing tO thE tEam» excuses. It has frln assize!
Stop the wannabe meta talk n its not viable. That is bullshit and it proves people want to irmpove their dps nowdays and put it on fflogs and get blue logs instead what they expect they could get.
IMO playstyle should matter.

Let me like it the way it is stop being so stupidly bashfull over my single opinion.
Ik lily is unpopular but it has a cool consept lol they need to rework it.

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Originally Posted by Johaandr

sLoWlY DyING
Jeez no its a laid back playstyle compared to my main scholar lol.
Nothing wrong with it. People uses raid, «iT BriNgs NotHing tO thE tEam» excuses. It has frln assize!
Stop the wannabe meta talk n its not viable. That is bullshit and it proves people want to irmpove their dps nowdays and put it on fflogs and get blue logs instead what they expect they could get.
IMO playstyle should matter.

Let me like it the way it is stop being so stupidly bashfull over my single opinion.
Ik lily is unpopular but it has a cool consept lol they need to rework it.

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.....What?

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

.....What?

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Three!

(is the answer three?)

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

.....What?

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My exact reaction to his statement.

I don't think you understand @Johaandr.

To put it simply, a good amount of the talk here has been about what can be done to improve WHM's viability since as it stands right now the other healers can literally heal the same as WHM while WHM brings nothing to the table to compensate. This thread wouldn't exist if WHM had an identity, and that identity has been thrown out the window due to AST/SCH oGCDs taking precedence over WHM's GCD Healing(which, in our current state, is not entirely needed due to the AST cast reduction buff they got in 4.4 and what AST brings to the table) and even its damage output based on data. I've also taken a good peek at the "Nerf SCH" thread as well and have seen some good arguments about how SCH can be taken down a notch without breaking it.

In reality, most people who pose reasonable arguments on the forums tend to have a reason to do so; whether it be positive or negative feedback based on how jobs are performing in the current raid tier or in general. A good example of this was the WHM uprising about Lilies that they predicted were going to be crap upon release and turned out to be true, and gave Yoshida and the Battle Team feedback on such either through here or through in-game feedback.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

.....What?

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Thats my signature

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Originally Posted by Johaandr

Thats my signature

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My search line in-game typically includes "uhh...what?" or "uhh...wot?" :p

I'm often confused about what's going on

So, Patch 4.5 adjustments are here, and we got this:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...M-on-4.5-patch

I don't understand why they're so focused on the healing aspect(outside of Aggro generation, which WHM desperately needed adjusting for) instead of giving WHM better damage to properly balance out with AST. But...I guess WHM will always be in the shadow of a superior healer that can literally get all their oGCDs off freely without clipping.

Just give it the AST treatment already and I'm sure people may consider playing WHM again.

Well, I'm considering on switching my main job. AST is fantastic this expac and SCH appears to be well-rounded.

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Originally Posted by tinythinker

Not everyone is into the raid scene, and WHM is fine for other areas of the game. For those who are into progression raiding I understand where some of the frustration comes from, yet there are those without the time or interest for the peak of end-game content. For those who want a really simple to get-into healer that can manage random people tossed together into a roulette, WHM is great. Its simplicity is not a drawback in such situations, it's a bonus. Players who get bored with that can move on to managing a pet or a deck of cards. The lily system is fertile ground for trying to make up for WHM's blandness as players reach higher levels as well as its shortcomings in prog if SE handles it right in 5.0.

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So just because it's fine elsewhere means the job needs to be hamstrung in raids forever? Sorry, I call bulls. I've met ASTs in experts who never used cards on my PLD (which is a pretty good example of an easy, accessible job that is quite sought after because, you know, it actually got shit none other can do while still being easy enough to learn so even noobs can play it decently enough), and SCHs who barely seem to be aware that you can and should micro-manage your fairy. We still cleared, because know what? Balance means jack shit in anything outside of raids, so saying "WHM is fine because it's usable anywhere except raids" is just plain idiotic and if I see this sorry excuse for an argument only one more time I'm going to throw up. The fact that you seem to be one of very few thinking so should also be a pretty good clue that maybe there really is something wrong here. Not saying the group is always right, but if several players who played the job since 2.0 (or longer) tell you there is something wrong, even switched to other jobs for raids because it's easier to get groups that way/it doesn't feel like being a freaking burden, you might want to listen to those people.

You honestly should consider it. Ast is in a wonderful spot the changes last patch feels so good to play. You probably won't even want to change back.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yokko_Kanno

You honestly should consider it. Ast is in a wonderful spot the changes last patch feels so good to play. You probably won't even want to change back.

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I'll switch to SCH or stop playing completely long before I will ever consider that, thank you very much.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

I'll switch to SCH or stop playing completely long before I will ever consider that, thank you very much.

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I meant to quote miraidensetsu.

I personally love SCH as they are so good and maintaining heals and also are great at DPS as well. They also are amazing at MP management. Also shields are more powerful than the AST since they can grant better shields on crit. I used to play WHM a lot and they haven't been fun to play since HW to be honest. AST is not my play style personally but I know a lot of people that swear by them. My issue with AST is their MP management and their dependency on RNG. They can be fun when they work well and are still useful in teams, but I find SCH to be the most reliable with minimal downtime due to their amazing MP control and their fairy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

So just because it's fine elsewhere means the job needs to be hamstrung in raids forever? Sorry, I call bulls. I've met ASTs in experts who never used cards on my PLD (which is a pretty good example of an easy, accessible job that is quite sought after because, you know, it actually got shit none other can do while still being easy enough to learn so even noobs can play it decently enough), and SCHs who barely seem to be aware that you can and should micro-manage your fairy. We still cleared, because know what? Balance means jack shit in anything outside of raids, so saying "WHM is fine because it's usable anywhere except raids" is just plain idiotic and if I see this sorry excuse for an argument only one more time I'm going to throw up. The fact that you seem to be one of very few thinking so should also be a pretty good clue that maybe there really is something wrong here. Not saying the group is always right, but if several players who played the job since 2.0 (or longer) tell you there is something wrong, even switched to other jobs for raids because it's easier to get groups that way/it doesn't feel like being a freaking burden, you might want to listen to those people.

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Even in the part you snipped, I mentioned SE having fertile ground for making the job more worthwhile for people at end-game. That comment is clear I am not saying the job feels OK for everyone, and other comments I made in this thread go into that in more detail.

Vomit as you will.

Or, hold on, here was the (joke) comment I was responding to:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mansion

It's been dying since early Heavensward. Let's just put an end to it.
Make it a Disciple of Land, and use elemental magic to make plants grow faster or whatever and take it off the raid-scene.

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I was responding to this particular perspective, which, while not serious in this case, some people have skated towards in their frustration.

*shrug*

As for those other comments I made in this thread, in them I expand on the comment you quoted and say that:

1. WHM as-is (great for non-prog/DF roulettes, easy to learn/re-learn, simple, etc.) appears to be a strength in SE's eyes.

2. It makes sense that SE would hesitate to mess with the identity or function of WHM if they see those things as strengths for a certain part of the player-base.

3. I get why that can be frustrating to those who want to stand out or be more competitive at end-game.

4. I offer my own ideas on how to try to balance #1/2 and #3. Not the best ideas by a long-shot. But I take the different desires and concerns seriously. It ranges from what many ask for (buff the heck out of WHM damage) to adding a *little* bit of complexity to the job via better use of lilies.


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The other comments, for whatever they are worth. These are short-excerpts of longer material from three larger comments but the arrow at the top goes back to the full text of each:

Longer comment numero uno...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tinythinker

I get it. I've said something similar: WHM is much easier to get into/more accessible. No managing cards or aetherflow or pets. That's "what it is". Unadorned and straightforward.

That's also why the lily gauge feels so tacked on by appearing so far into leveling. There *is no* WHM minigame to manage that relies on some special resource (aetherflow, pets, cards). SE seems to acknowledge that this is "what white mage is" by making lilies nice but optional and ignorable, especially for non-raiders. That keeps the "plain, simple, powerful" theme intact. Confession stacks don't even get a gauge, and outside of less forgiving content they are also nice but easily ignorable...

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Longer comment dos...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tinythinker

Yes, as I described a little ealier, it seems SE wants to keep WHM simple and easy to access even at cap, hence lilies and confession stacks added late in the leveling process that are ignorable (confession doesn't even get a gauge). In adding those late extras to WHM they appear to want to avoid introducing much complexity while adding a little something extra for prog players/optimizers. People who only do non-prog content and/or play infrequently/casually can use WHM as easy-to-get-(back)-into job for healing, while the other healing jobs offer more complexity and management of resources. I have dropped in and out of the game a lot over the past 2 1/2 year, and can say that WHM being so basic and easy to use has really helped me jump back in and given me a cushion for making mistakes and some confidence trying new content because it's easy to remember/relearn/use all the way up to the current expert roulette.

Not arguing whether or not this is how SE should approach it, just that this looks like their goal...

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Longer comment tres...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tinythinker

My own clumsy, off the top of my head sketch for some of this...

1. Add lililes earlier.

2. Give one or two buttons that rely on/consume lilies.

3. Focus on the theme of WHM in the game -- elemental/nature magic -- for designing a unique contribution (because SE isn't going to heavily prune AST and SCH healing and dps just to let WHM stand out).

How this premise plays out can go many ways. To offer a lackluster, unpolished example...

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Not major insights or mind-blowingly awesome suggestions, but if you want to vent because of my words here they are in full for your consideration. If my ideas or opinions suck or are idiotic and unworthy, I want to get credit for the whole package :)

In any case, I hope 5.0 brings you a WHM you can be happy with however it all turns out.

Well we are now the Assize-Mage. I'm fine with this until 5.0

But to be more serious, I don't remember where we already covered that but I don't think the "easy" argument stands in WHM's favour. Because other easy jobs have their utility/good performances.
And it would cost nothing to add something to WHM that would make it useful in a raid scene, without touching it's straightforward kit/identity. A clipping solution that is not overall DPS loss or overheal, for instance. Or an added effect to Confessions other than a free heal.
This could also have been solved by a real Lillies mini-game. Stacking more lillies and have original actions using them (if we have a way to use them efficiently in our rotation of course).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mansion

Well we are now the Assize-Mage. I'm fine with this until 5.0

But to be more serious, I don't remember where we already covered that but I don't think the "easy" argument stands in WHM's favour. Because other easy jobs have their utility/good performances.
And it would cost nothing to add something to WHM that would make it useful in a raid scene, without touching it's straightforward kit/identity. A clipping solution that is not overall DPS loss or overheal, for instance. Or an added effect to Confessions other than a free heal.
This could also have been solved by a real Lillies mini-game. Stacking more lillies and have original actions using them (if we have a way to use them efficiently in our rotation of course).

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Agreed that it would be easy to have changed a cast speed here and a damage potency there (I've been in favor of that as well), but they didn't. And in the comment just above yours is a link to a lily minigame I came up with (not the best but it gets at the idea).

Yet SE didn't do these things. They might still in a month or so but it's interesting they didn't with this patch release. So it seems that either they may not solely be looking at end-game when making these decisions (many of the 4.x changes are amazing for QoL for the pug healer in DF) or they disagree with the assessment of the degree or nature of WHM's shortcomings at end-game. We won't know for sure until 5.0 since this is meant to be a band-aid patch for job performance.

Fully agreed actually.

I'm raising ideas and quoting yours for the lilly minigame for the purpose of the discussion. But the more I think of it, the more it seems Squeenix values more the easiness of WHM than its overall performance, all content included. Basically, that's just it. We can ramble about how things could have been for pages long of forum discussion, they did not do much. I think they want to maintain this "open door" to healing and only touch it in case of emergency / when it no longer makes any difference (this is the case for 4.5).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mansion

Fully agreed actually.

I'm raising ideas and quoting yours for the lilly minigame for the purpose of the discussion. But the more I think of it, the more it seems Squeenix values more the easiness of WHM than its overall performance, all content included. Basically, that's just it. We can ramble about how things could have been for pages long of forum discussion, they did not do much. I think they want to maintain this "open door" to healing and only touch it in case of emergency / when it no longer makes any difference (this is the case for 4.5).

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Heh. Rambling is all there is for now with 4.5 out :)

I sometimes call the job, Whine Mage.

Diehards of the job just can't stand it is a basic healing role, and when it lost luster even as a progression healer they just resort to starting threads bashing Scholar and Astro.

The 4.5 changes are enough to calm people down, but the best solution long-term is just throwing the lilies in the trash come 5.0.

At the very least, it does seem like they're prepping to change the Lily system.
Assize CD basically being shortend to what 3 lilies would normally achieve is basically them saying they know no one uses Lilies for this so we might as well.

As for why WHM wasn't buffed more...I have no idea. Perhaps they're seeing something we're not? Perhaps they take healing into larger consideration than any of us do? Who knows, WHM has always been treated very weirdly in this game. And I definitely don't buy that it's intentionally weaker to cater to the beginners, because if that was the case PLD and RDM would also have to be considerably worse than other jobs since they're equally as beginner friendly.

Nothing we can do but wait till 5.0 now, but it feels like to me they haven't given up the pure healer mess for WHM and we're going to have another expansion of this...

PLD was much further behind than WHM ever was. Circle of Scorns was on a long cool down and it was the only AoE they had for a long time. Shield Oats penalty was too large, and Alexander Savage was primarily catered towards magical damage which DRK had a clear advantage with Dark Mind being on a short cool down. If anything, there was more work for every job bringing a PLD.

If anything WHM is just a victim of oddball decisions, and healer parity has never been better in this game. As soon as they get out of the Lily mess, the sooner they can make sensible changes to where each skill makes sense again. Assize is a good step for now.

I feel a lot of WHM mains would be happy as long as WHM can bring top DPS compared to all the other healers. I'll always be of opinion that those jobs that have to play at both a high skill and party coordination level should trump (and thus be meta) those jobs that only need to play at a high skill level. However, those in the latter category should still bring something to the table. In the case of FFXIV, these jobs bring the highest individual DPS possible (BLM and SAM) and WHM should fall into this category as well.

Right now, one of WHMs strength is being able to perform well without much input from the rest of your party. Assize's large range means you'll be able to clip people who wouldn't normally be in range for Earthly Star or Deployed Adlo. Medica II can clip people when Succor and Aspected Helios could not. WHM's DPS SHOULD be equal to or better than AST and SCH rDPS contribution in a party of average skilled players, as the power of their buffs is a function of the total party DPS.

Part of the strengths of the SCH and AST kits is being able to take advantage of coordinated party heals and shields that have limited range. Once the party starts to move outside that effective range, as it is likely to do in a PuG situation, the WHM kits becomes a bit more desirable. Say what you will about the 700+ potency Earthly Star provides - if even a single party member is outside the range of the explosion, the healers will need to dump additional resources on to the party members that missed that massive heal and thus reduce healer DPS uptime.

That's part of why I like the WHM kit so much, the level of power and control I can have with very little input from the rest of the party makes it ideal in pulling parties through fires. Fixing Lilies aside, give me the DPS resources to out perform the pDPS contribution of SCH and AST and I will be a very happy camper with the WHM kit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Say what you will about the 700+ potency Earthly Star provides - if even a single party member is outside the range of the explosion, the healers will need to dump additional resources on to the party members that missed that massive heal and thus reduce healer DPS uptime.

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I know what you're saying here, but Assize isn't WHMs heal bomb. Cure III is, and Cure III is every bit as limiting as Earthly Star. If anything, the massive jump in mobile healing while on AST feels even better when I jump on my AST to heal.
It probably seems like WHM has better healing because there's nothing else to focus on for the job, which is a valid point I suppose.