Ultimate hiatus feedback

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Originally Posted by lulunami

Would this be a fair categorization of content difficulty?

Easy mode: Deltascape (Normal), Sigmascape (Normal), any story mode primal, and arguably Lakshmi EX?
Normal mode: Deltascape (Savage), Sigmascape (Savage), Final Coil of Bahamut, Shinryu EX, Tsukiyomi EX, Thordan EX
Hard mode: Second Coil of Bahamut (Savage), Alexander Gordias (Savage), Alexander Midas (Savage)
Ultra mode: Bahamut Ultimate, Ultima Ultimate

Hardcore raiders will usually advocate Hard or Ultra mode difficulty. The game really lacks content in the Normal mode difficulty that so-called midcore players want, I presume.

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I'd say that way underestimates the difficulty of some of the content, and I'd say shows off the patronising attitude of the higher levels raiders. The current savage fights are still very channelling fights and I do hate the attitude that runs through these treads that they're easy. They might not be as challenging as you want but they are still hard fights.

The discussion is interesting but maybe it's better to keep this thread as a way to express feedback towards Ultimate

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Originally Posted by lulunami

Would this be a fair categorization of content difficulty?

Easy: Deltascape (Normal), Sigmascape (Normal), any story mode primal, and arguably Lakshmi EX?
Normal: Shinryu EX, Tsukiyomi EX, Thordan EX
Hard: Deltascape (Savage), Sigmascape (Savage), Final Coil of Bahamut
Very Hard: Second Coil of Bahamut (Savage), Alexander Gordias (Savage), Alexander Midas (Savage)
Nightmare: Bahamut Ultimate, Ultima Ultimate

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I edited it a bit; Delta and Sigma aren't quite on the same level as Shinryu, Tsukuyomi and Thordan EX in terms of difficulty. I'd say they're a cut or so above.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

I'd say that way underestimates the difficulty of some of the content, and I'd say shows off the patronising attitude of the higher levels raiders. The current savage fights are still very channelling fights and I do hate the attitude that runs through these treads that they're easy. They might not be as challenging as you want but they are still hard fights.

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If you are comparing them to their predecessors, they are ridiculously easy—Alte Rolte could barely be considered Savage; same with Catastrophe. Phantom Train was an improvement, but Chadarnook is, again, another striking dummy with very few mechanics that can actually endanger a group unless the group is just all over the place. Both Deltascape and Sigmascape are easier than Creator, which was easier than Midas, which was easier than Gordias (albeit Gordias was admitted to be overtuned for its maximum gear at the time).

I’d also say that a lot of raiders would consider Thordan Ex on an entirely separate level compared to the other Extremes, especially at launch. Him and Sephirot were no pushovers, and were definitely harder than TsukuEx mechanically—I’d say she’s probably between Sophia and Nidhogg Ex, though closer to Sophia than Nidhogg. I personally think Thordan Ex is harder than Halicarnassus and Guardian if you think to how he was at launch and all the stuff you had to deal with mechanically.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I edited it a bit; Delta and Sigma aren't quite on the same level as Shinryu, Tsukuyomi and Thordan EX in terms of difficulty. I'd say they're a cut or so above.

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I’d honestly wager to say that Thordan Ex at launch is competing with Neo and God Kefka in terms of difficulty. Shinryu is challenging, but I personally find him easier than Halicarnassus. Not Guardian though; I think Guardian is relatively easily if you look at his mechanics.



To bring the conversation back to the topic at hand, if the developers are insistent on taking away the harder content from the raiders in 4.5 (Ultimate), then they should up the difficulty of Savage, or add a fifth and/or sixth floor that are on the same difficulty level as A8S. That’s really the only compromise I can personally be okay with.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

If you are comparing them to their predecessors, they are ridiculously easy—Alte Rolte could barely be considered Savage; same with Catastrophe. Phantom Train was an improvement, but Chadarnook is, again, another striking dummy with very few mechanics that can actually endanger a group unless the group is just all over the place. Both Deltascape and Sigmascape are easier than Creator, which was easier than Midas, which was easier than Gordias (albeit Gordias was admitted to be overtuned for its maximum gear at the time).

I’d also say that a lot of raiders would consider Thordan Ex on an entirely separate level compared to the other Extremes, especially at launch. Him and Sephirot were no pushovers, and were definitely harder than TsukuEx mechanically—I’d say she’s probably between Sophia and Nidhogg Ex, though closer to Sophia than Nidhogg. I personally think Thordan Ex is harder than Halicarnassus and Guardian if you think to how he was at launch and all the stuff you had to deal with mechanically.

To bring the conversation back to the topic at hand, if the developers are insistent on taking away the harder content from the raiders in 4.5 (Ultimate), then they should up the difficulty of Savage, or add a fifth and/or sixth floor that are on the same difficulty level as A8S. That’s really the only compromise I can personally be okay with.

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To call them normal difficulty fights is pretty insulting. Gordias did seem to show how little interest there was in content of that difficulty without something to feed into it (which I think why Ultimate is a better idea than that) and how much damage it did seem to do to the raid scene.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

To call them normal difficulty fights is pretty insulting. Gordias did seem to show how little interest there was in content of that difficulty without something to feed into it (which I think why Ultimate is a better idea than that) and how much damage it did seem to do to the raid scene.

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Gordias did the damage it did to the raid scene because it was overtuned for the maximum ilvl gear there was at the time, and the developers admitted as such. You could not beat A4S without having a max ilvl weapon. It was literally impossible to do. It wasn’t that the difficulty of the mechanics are what turned people off of it—it was the fact that it was literally impossible to clear without the best gear, and DPS from all party members, including tanks and healers was required to meet the checks due to, again, them being overtuned.

Obviously, Deltascape and Sigmascape Savage are harder than “normal difficulty fights”—but some of the latest Savage fights can barely call themselves “Savage” if you look at past Savage encounters—they are closer in difficulty to old Extremes, which in turn are slowly losing what actually made them “Extreme” (looking at you, Byakko Ex and Lakshmi Ex). Though, I would say Alte Rolte is about as hard as a 24-man boss. Difficulty is subjective, but if you look at current Savage compared to older Savage, it’s very easy to say objectively which fights were the harder, more “Savage” fights.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

To call them normal difficulty fights is pretty insulting. Gordias did seem to show how little interest there was in content of that difficulty without something to feed into it (which I think why Ultimate is a better idea than that) and how much damage it did seem to do to the raid scene.

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Not really given the context provided. When compared against Godias and Midas, Delta and Sigma are essentially a normal equivalent. The difficulty between the two is staggering. Admittedly, I wouldn't categorize an entire tier like that though because while say, Cruise Chaser isn't on the same level as Living Liquid, it remains a challenging fight. Alte Roite though has no business being labeled Savage. When you can clear with 13 deaths in less than an hour week one, it's not Savage.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Obviously, Deltascape and Sigmascape Savage are harder than “normal difficulty fights”—but some of the latest Savage fights can barely call themselves “Savage” if you look at past Savage encounters—they are closer in difficulty to old Extremes, which in turn are slowly losing what actually made them “Extreme” (looking at you, Byakko Ex and Lakshmi Ex). Though, I would say Alte Rolte is about as hard as a 24-man boss. Difficulty is subjective, but if you look at current Savage compared to older Savage, it’s very easy to say objectively which fights were the harder, more “Savage” fights.

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I won't disagree they're easier, I've been in savage this patch. However to try and imply they're 'normal' difficulty is pretty condescending.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

I won't disagree they're easier, I've been in savage this patch. However to try and imply they're 'normal' difficulty is pretty condescending.

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That was another poster who labeled them as “normal mode”, not me. All I said is that they are easier compared to their predecessors, with some barely being able to call themselves “Savage” if you look at Alte Rolte and, to some extent, Catastrophe.

Ultimate is supposed to be something for raiders since their content continues to progressively get easier with each and each passing tier. Yoshida has already said that there will be no increase in difficulty for Savage, not even progressively from tier to tier; so, Ultimate was supposed to be the answer for that—to give hardcore players something they want. With nothing in 4.51 for those who have already completed Savage, the patch is going to be very bleak, and I still question the decision, especially given that the reason that it was the community claiming the content every odd .x1 patch was “too rough”.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Not really given the context provided. When compared against Godias and Midas, Delta and Sigma are essentially a normal equivalent. The difficulty between the two is staggering. Admittedly, I wouldn't categorize an entire tier like that though because while say, Cruise Chaser isn't on the same level as Living Liquid, it remains a challenging fight. Alte Roite though has no business being labeled Savage. When you can clear with 13 deaths in less than an hour week one, it's not Savage.

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If you where clearing either of those when they where current then you really are a very skilled player but I find it patronising when people start trying throwing around that fights aren't still challenging. It's fine to say the fights aren't as hard as you'd like there a good debate to had there but when people start dramatically underplaying them then I think it shows an unpleasant cliqueness.
I'd agree Alte was probably under-tuned given I was able to clear it on release week with PUGs.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Ultimate is supposed to be something for raiders since their content continues to progressively get easier with each and each passing tier. Yoshida has already said that there will be no increase in difficulty for Savage, not even progressively from tier to tier; so, Ultimate was supposed to be the answer for that—to give hardcore players something they want. With nothing in 4.51 for those who have already completed Savage, the patch is going to be very bleak, and I still question the decision, especially given that the reason that it was the community claiming the content every odd .x1 patch was “too rough”.

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The reason does seem a little hollow I’ll admit, I did see someone trying to argue it might be the slower Japanese groups still attempting to clear the previous one not being happy as they want to complete the previous one before starting the new one. No idea if it true but it’s the only good explanation I’ve seen given there reasoning. My guess is they don’t want to commit themselves to doing one every odd patch and want to only release them when they are sure they have a fight that going to be good.

I don’t think I’d be so against more ultimate’s if they didn’t have the strict ilevel lock which makes them only for a small player base once the content is no longer current or maybe if they split the fight up a little so that alongside the full fight they did an easier fight with just the primals from this one for example just so more content comes out of the production time for it.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

I don’t think I’d be so against more ultimate’s if they didn’t have the strict ilevel lock which makes them only for a small player base once the content is no longer current or maybe if they split the fight up a little so that alongside the full fight they did an easier fight with just the primals from this one for example just so more content comes out of the production time for it.

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Ultimate Series is a content targeting players who cleared Savage and seeking for further challenges. If you're having difficulty to clear Savage, Ultimate probably isn't a fight for you. Ultimate Coils fight synced to ilvl 345 currently making the fight more accessible.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

I don’t think I’d be so against more ultimate’s if they didn’t have the strict ilevel lock which makes them only for a small player base once the content is no longer current or maybe if they split the fight up a little so that alongside the full fight they did an easier fight with just the primals from this one for example just so more content comes out of the production time for it.

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For the item level lock, removing it removes the challenge. I’d rather not be able to do UCoB in i370 or even i400 (or whatever the final tier item level will be) because it just trivializes the content. Players already get to steamroll older tiers of Savage and older Extreme primals as the item level increases; I’d rather not them be able to do that to Ultimate. If they ever did, remove the rewards from it—no title, no weapon. It defeats the purpose, and let’s face it: those are the raiders’ trophies for beating the hardest content in the game.

If you’re concerned about item level, pieces of +2 Eureka gear and the new i345 dungeon gear are actually BiS for UCoB. You don’t even need to do Neo for Genji weapons unless you want a proper i345 weapon (provided that the +2 Eureka weapon has bad substats or if you don’t care about substats and just want weapon damage).

I’m also against splitting the fight in any way. That also removes the challenge of a gauntlet-style encounter. If you really want to experience just the primals aspect, the old Extreme primals are still there and minimum ilvl is an option in PF. No more “easier fights”; everything is getting watered down to be “easier” over time in this game anyways with gear progression. I don’t want to see any more high-end content get easier because people are reluctant to dedicate the time to it—be it to improving themselves for the content or just progging it.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

If you where clearing either of those when they where current then you really are a very skilled player but I find it patronising when people start trying throwing around that fights aren't still challenging. It's fine to say the fights aren't as hard as you'd like there a good debate to had there but when people start dramatically underplaying them then I think it shows an unpleasant cliqueness.
I'd agree Alte was probably under-tuned given I was able to clear it on release week with PUGs.

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People generally make that distinction based on what came before. For new raiders, yes, Chadarnok Savage may be a wake up call, but I wouldn't consider him an overly challenging fight once you've seen his mechanics. I don't say that to be patronizing, but I simply don't find it difficult. Of course, perspectives will differ, I'll grant you.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

I don’t think I’d be so against more ultimate’s if they didn’t have the strict ilevel lock which makes them only for a small player base once the content is no longer current or maybe if they split the fight up a little so that alongside the full fight they did an easier fight with just the primals from this one for example just so more content comes out of the production time for it.

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Allowing people to unsync Ultimate defeats the entire purpose. It exists to be an extremely difficult fight. If people can go in with a higher ilvl or unsync it come the next expansion, what was once challenging now gets gradually steamrolled. I mean, look at the sad state of Heavensward content. Brute Justice Savage can be four manned nowadays. One of the most difficult fights in the game has been reduced to a light party farm, if you're good enough. It's even worse with ARR. I can solo Garuda, Titan, Ifrit and Leviathan on a DPS. Their damage is so pitiful, you can shrug it off. While unsyncing Ultimate doesn't take away the achievement of those who clear at its most difficult, it does lose a fair bit of luster when everyone can go and obtain the title and weapons without a fraction of the effort.

Ultimate isn't meant to be content for everyone. It's something for those seeking a challenge hence why it reuses assets to limit development costs. This is hardcore raider content. You get everything else, including Savage. This is ours.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

I'd say that way underestimates the difficulty of some of the content, and I'd say shows off the patronising attitude of the higher levels raiders. The current savage fights are still very channelling fights and I do hate the attitude that runs through these treads that they're easy. They might not be as challenging as you want but they are still hard fights.

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I was not trying to be patronizing. Perhaps I am partially biased, but that is my opinion of the relative difficulty based on my experience through all that content. I do confess that I could have been more granular with my assessment, but not everyone is going to agree on categories or labels.

I'm not a hardcore player but i approve of this message

I think it would have helped if Yoshi were a bit more detailed and honest why he did it. I have the feeling if he gave statistics it probably would validate his view. Sometimes he's too curt for his own good.

The fact that people seem to think Square Enix will just up and be like “hey youre right! Lets build a new ultimate before 4.5 and release it!” Given their track record of literally doing whatever they want and listening to no one is hilarious, do you honestly believe they’d read this and start making an ultimate fight from scratch when the decision to go on hiatus was probably made months ago? Ultimate is great sure but same thing is gonna happen as it did in 2.0 and 3.0. Last tier comes out people clear it and Unsub till next expac nothing new going on

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Originally Posted by lovelylion

To Dev Team:
Please don't listen to them, they may be famous for being top raid group but they don't represent for all of FFXIV community.
Dev team should put all resource in developing next expansion's contents.
Only less than 1% of players can clear a new ultimate content in 4.5, and it will be dead as soon as 5.0 arrives.
Please don't waste any cost on this kind of content.

開発チームへ：
この人たちの意見を参考しないでください。彼らはファーストレイドチームとして有名ですが、すべてのFFXIVプレイヤーを代表できるわけではありません。
開発チームは資源を次の拡張に集中すべきです。
4.5で絶を出しても１％未満のプレイヤーしかクリアできません、そして5.0が出たらこの絶はすぐ死にコンテンツになります。
こんなコンテンツにコストをかけないでください。

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Japanese comment, JP home server. I wonder if the "community feedback" SE is basing the decision on came mainly from the JP community. Anyone able to read Japanese know what the sentiment is like over there?

I'm fine with their decision as its the correct call to make. Am I a bit upset about it? Sure, but I also don't want the Ultimate's to be churned out on a conveyor belt to appease a very vocal minority of the player base at the expense of the overall experience.

I want to make this clear.
The ppl working for the patch contents are not the same working for the expansion. The expansion content is already beign done. Work on it probably started the moment SB launched,
As such cutting patch content doesn't really mean they will be working on the expansion more.

@Singularity,; It's why I say that we can't really take forum voices as voice of the ppl since
1) as this thread have shown many ppl don't post here that much
2) opinions on the forums are varied

Personally I think they hear about streamers more than other players though, since I've seen a more cordial conversation than I expected with yoshida even saying he was watching the streams. Now I don't want to say hunt the witches ofc and I admit it might just be my impression.
However it's possible that they are using streamers to gauge players feedback since streamers are more or less an aggregation of players

I always find it sad to come in and read comments where players from other sections of the community actively advocate for less content for others. We're two ultimates in and there's been no impact to the content released for the more casual players in the community, and the positive effect ultimate content has had on the hardcore raiding community (and streaming community) has been immense.

Ultimate content is made using minimal resources (reused assets, art, arenas, bosses, music, etc.) but crafted creatively by talented battle designers. Patch 4.3 is perhaps one of the most packed patches in terms of casual content, with new crafting gear and Namazu dailies, a great MSQ scenario with a trial to go with it, Heaven-on-High and Eureka to come.

So let us have our one fight every six months that's efficiently put together and doesn't impact the casual player base in any way. I know not all casual or "midcore" players feel this way, and it's been great to see support from those who revel in the excitement of streams but don't participate, but there's definitely a portion of the player base that exhibits a sort of casual toxicity and entitlement that's sad to see.

The collective U-Turn that was the whole World 1st racers realising they've been doing the UWU fight wrong is my favorite thing to come out of the community.
So yeah more ultimate please!

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Originally Posted by FiorelleLaurent

I always find it sad to come in and read comments where players from other sections of the community actively advocate for less content for others. We're two ultimates in and there's been no impact to the content released for the more casual players in the community, and the positive effect ultimate content has had on the hardcore raiding community (and streaming community) has been immense.

Ultimate content is made using minimal resources (reused assets, art, arenas, bosses, music, etc.) but crafted creatively by talented battle designers. Patch 4.3 is perhaps one of the most packed patches in terms of casual content, with new crafting gear and Namazu dailies, a great MSQ scenario with a trial to go with it, Heaven-on-High and Eureka to come.

So let us have our one fight every six months that's efficiently put together and doesn't impact the casual player base in any way. I know not all casual or "midcore" players feel this way, and it's been great to see support from those who revel in the excitement of streams but don't participate, but there's definitely a portion of the player base that exhibits a sort of casual toxicity and entitlement that's sad to see.

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I know I'll make my self even more unpopular with this but I don't think it's fair to say there's been no loss of content due to ultimate. Whether we would have got something worthwhile instead is debatable.
I also think the entitlement argument cuts both way with a small part of the player base expecting regular content that is only ever doable by them.

The only reasonable loss of content that can be attribuited to Ultima is only 1 rehashed dungeon and frankly atm dungeon content is lacking in quality. If them cutting down quanity will also culminate in increased quality that's all the better I say

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

I also think the entitlement argument cuts both way with a small part of the player base expecting regular content that is only ever doable by them.

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part of the reason why it is an issue is because they told us that we were going to be getting these fights every off patch. Which would total 3 fights. The expectation was brought on by them, and then suddenly revoked. They did remove a few dungeons in order to make this content. Content that they emphasized in live letters was going to be resource light by reusing all of their old assets.
If they are going to be removing things from the game as they have, they should show that those resources are being used effectively. But this is just a straight loss for both sides. We have lost additional dungeons and we have lost the ultimate fight they said they were doing in it's stead.

There shouldn't be debate over making the ultimate fights to begin with. The fights are exactly what the hardcore community has been longing for ever since savage's difficulty was reduced. it has been great in other areas outside the hardcore community as well. We should be avocating for more good content, not less.

You are also claiming that the content is only ever doable by a very small portion of the playersbase, and if by doable you mean cleared. Then yes. But the effects of savage extend much further than just the people who can clear it, and that is one of our points here.
With some effort and persistence, it is possible for everyone to make it through the savage fights. Many casual and midcore statics, after they end up clearing the savage tier, like to go in without any expectation to clear. They do this to have fun, to challenge themselves, and have something new to do. There are many people in this thread who have said the same thing. And I personally have friends who do this as well.
Then you have people who arent interested in even going in themselves who love to watch others go in. Do either of these groups of people not matter? Taking away this content is taking away their fun and enjoyment as well, and I think it is really sad.

I strongly agree with the original post. There's always been some group that's been left out in the cold.

In ARR, casual players missed out on the side story raiders got to see.
In Heavensward, mid-core groups crumbled for the first two tiers and then hardcore groups got bored with the final tier.
Stormblood suddenly had raid content for everyone and it was awesome.

If Ultimate is too tough to keep release every odd patch, there should be at least something that hardcore players can strive for. Heaven On High could have been that content. Primals could be that content. Even the current raid tiers can be that content.

All hardcore players are asking for is something challenging and fun for them to do. They shouldn't be the only group sacrificed as Stormblood comes to a close.

Good riddance.

2 per expansion is enough.

I'm pretty sure people would be happy with just one more ultimate added at some point in the next raid tier even s non hardcore raider who like most of the people in my static got started on sigma raiding really late (we just reached enrage on os7 yesterday) ultimate as some appeal its some distant point on the horizon I will someday reach and when we do get there and mainly jsut spend our time there failing we'll still be having fun

As someone still working through the early stages of Ultimate Ultima, I strongly agree with the original post. I love the excitement these super hard fights produce in the community, and the buzz it creates around the game. This kind of challenging content is what I want to see more of from FF14.

You realize servers are dead at the moment right? Ultimate services such a small segment of the game population.

There's no correlation to the servers being dead and another ultimate, the time spent by the combat team is not that much since they already have most of the assets ready for the battle.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

There's no correlation to the servers being dead and another ultimate, the time spent by the combat team is not that much since they already have most of the assets ready for the battle.

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It very much does. the types of content SE is developing isn't keeping players engaged. That is a problem.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

It very much does. the types of content SE is developing isn't keeping players engaged. That is a problem.

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That has more to do with SE's overall content design philosophy than Ultimate. It's not like not having Ultimate would suddenly make other content more engaging, since this was happening before Ultimate even existed.

@Ayer2015 That is a more broad problem and not really related to ultimate. Ultimate is more engaging to raiders and some have found use of previously never though areas.

Now it only goes to a certian portion of the playerbase k, fair enough but nothing stops you to try so long you defeat the final tier of savage which will become easier.

What you refer to is a problem of the rest of the content ans that needs fixing I don't see why they could not fix both tbh.

All that we've been getting less of lately is just dungeons, right? Otherwise we've been getting the same stuff (plus more) ever since ARR? That seems like a fair exchange for Ultimate, assuming Ultimate is the main reason we're getting less (mostly boring) dungeons (that are really all the same since around level 50-60).

I enjoyed watching Ultimate streams and waking up to Tweets saying "we were doing it wrong!" was pretty neat.

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Originally Posted by Singularity

Japanese comment, JP home server. I wonder if the "community feedback" SE is basing the decision on came mainly from the JP community. Anyone able to read Japanese know what the sentiment is like over there?

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I don't think I ever saw a thread about it on the JP forum, and there's also nothing about it in their General section too. (There is however an almost 45 pages thread about the "preventive ACT callouts on mechanics" thing.) That said, it's possible that they talk about this on external sites, like blogs, 2ch, futaba ect

Also -1 from me. The attention of the 2 devs that do the Ultimate fights is better spend elsewhere during the final pre-expansion patch

Such as? That's the problem there's nothing they've said will come in place also 2 devs won't make or break something pls.....

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Originally Posted by Nestama

All that we've been getting less of lately is just dungeons, right? Otherwise we've been getting the same stuff (plus more) ever since ARR? That seems like a fair exchange for Ultimate, assuming Ultimate is the main reason we're getting less (mostly boring) dungeons (that are really all the same since around level 50-60).

I enjoyed watching Ultimate streams and waking up to Tweets saying "we were doing it wrong!" was pretty neat.

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Or instead of developing another ultimate for 1% of players they can do interesting dungeons with more mechanics(like Vault pre-nerd) and primals for 50+% of the playerbase? And make it standart expirience so the game wouldn't feel like boring faceroll. More midcore stuff. the "in-between" difficulty of raids, same as it was in gordias and midas before, while current story mode stay the same.

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Originally Posted by DDkiki

Or instead of developing another ultimate for 1% of players they can do interesting dungeons with more mechanics(like Vault pre-nerd) and primals for 50+% of the playerbase? And make it standart expirience so the game wouldn't feel like boring faceroll. More midcore stuff. the "in-between" difficulty of raids, same as it was in gordias and midas before, while current story mode stay the same.

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First and foremost, EX Primal numbers are not even close to 50%. In fact, 50% of the playerbase hasn't even finished the MSQ. Second, what preceding examples indicate they will abruptly change dungeon design to be anything beyond a brain dead faceroll? Not a single dungeon in Stormblood compares to The Vault pre-nerf. Regardless, unless dungeons receive a big overhaul, people are simply less inclined to do them. The devs even acknowledged the general perception is they've become boring. If they had a proven track record, at least I could hang my hat on the idea, but they haven't changed dungeon design in years. And this assumes they need to sacrifice Ultimate for yet another dungeon.

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Originally Posted by DDkiki

Or instead of developing another ultimate for 1% of players they can do interesting dungeons with more mechanics(like Vault pre-nerd) and primals for 50+% of the playerbase?

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To add onto Bourne's comment, let's also take note that developing an Ultimate turn is going to require a very different team to a Dungeon. (Note, whilst I don't have first hand experience with SE's workflow, I've got experience of my own to call on here, so this isn't vague conjecture).

Lets say that in both cases, we start with our beloved Sudo who will brainstorm and storyboard out concepts, perhaps with the hand of a concept artist or two. At this stage, an Ultimate and Dungeon would be pretty similar with the dungeon having more of an artistic focus whilst Ultimate would lean more towards rougher concepts focusing on how Sudo envisions a party would tackle his mechanics.

From there, things branch out massively. Dungeon design is primarily art, both 2D and 3D. Modern game content requires very substantial teams of artists to get done at any real pace. Meanwhile, Ultimate isn't art heavy at all, you'll get a few new animations and effects with the bulk of the work being a drag and drop away via the CVS. That's not to say that it's free content though as it just isn't. Rather, it needs very significant amounts of QA due to the extensive tuning required to get the balance and difficulty right.

The TLDR here is that both types of content are using different parts of the team, you're not going to draft QA into the world building team on a moments notice and if I had a QA army at my disposal some 20 years ago, I'd like to think that Yoshida has that luxury in 2018. It simply doesn't make economic sense to have content designers doing their own QA beyond the first pass and SE's bean counters have been around long enough to understand this.

Also, to take this tangent and spin it around some.

Riddle me this, what if one side effect of Ultimate and all the testing that it entails is that the QA team gets a much deeper understanding of FFXIV and it's various jobs than they would simply making sure some random dungeon isn't broken? (FFXIV is very unlikely to have it's own dedicated QA, rather it'll be a fairly substantial team that will be testing all manner of random SE games and content) Surely that bodes well for us next expansion as they will be better prepared to help avoid the utter mess many jobs were left in at the release of 4.0.