This whole Meta Party thing is hurting me. x_x

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eli85

Development metrics, internal numbers, more thorough understanding of how skills and abilities interact with each other, better testing environments—all this, combined with far more logs than any player has seen, gives the developers a much higher quality of data.

I fear you are misreading Yoshida. When he says that 'there are no major advantages or disadvantages to any setup,' the suggestion is very clear: the perceived advantages and disadvantages of the "meta" are not as profound as players make them out to be. So why? The higher quality of data the developers are privy to suggest this, which is why he said what he said.

---

So why does it need the playerbase to find all those opportunities like the 100% egi/fairy buff uptime thing in HW, the one hit TA back at the primal or the latest Ninja rotation which „wasn’t intended to be like this“ (and many more examples) if devs knowledge and testing is beyond all doubts? Everytime a skill is changed in its mechanic its just another proof that the player base found a usage of that skill the devs haven't even thought about... how does this fact fit your opinion? :o

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eli85

This is a really bad case of putting words in my mouth. My claim (which really isn't a claim, as it is a fact): the developers have a higher quality of data than the players do. Ergo, when objective data analysis is done, I (and everyone else, quite frankly) should put far, far more weight into the developers claims (since) they are working from a higher quality of data.

Development metrics, internal numbers, more thorough understanding of how skills and abilities interact with each other, better testing environments—all this, combined with far more logs than any player has seen, gives the developers a much higher quality of data.

---

I have done no such thing. If the developers have data we aren't privy to that demonstrably disapproves the meta, in-game battle logs are relaying inaccurate information. Regardless, we know your statement false because the developers have on, numerous occasions, been outsmarted by the playerbase. They never anticipated players who precast Huton or blow Infuriate/Raw Intuition and delay pulling. For an entire expansion they insisted Paladins were fine yet caved come Stormblood.

They don't actually have a better understanding. None of the dev team plays at even a remotely comparable level to World First raiders. This is true of virtually every game due to time constraints. A primary reason many games employ test servers is for this very reason.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eli85

I fear you are misreading Yoshida. When he says that 'there are no major advantages or disadvantages to any setup,' the suggestion is very clear: the perceived advantages and disadvantages of the "meta" are not as profound as players make them out to be. So why? The higher quality of data the developers are privy to suggest this, which is why he said what he said.

---

Operative word being "major." Perception is key here. The devs do not necessarily see Bard missing out of Battle Litany or Disembowel as a "major disadvantage" because their only concern is can every job clear the content. Yoshida's statement is both casual minded and intended to stop people locking out certain jobs. It's a PR response and little else. It has absolutely nothing to do with "higher quality data" or whatever other nebulous term. I mean, consider the alternative. Paying customers wouldn't exactly be pleased to hear the Producer say, "Yeah, no. Samurai is useless. Play Dragoon/Ninja," if they enjoyed the former.

Put simply, the devs aren't looking at FFlogs but simply viability. They couldn't care less if you clear seconds before enrage with the bare minimal amount of DPS or three minutes ahead. Both groups cleared, which is all they care about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neela

So why does it need the playerbase to find all those opportunities like the 100% egi/fairy buff uptime thing in HW, the one hit TA back at the primal or the latest Ninja rotation which „wasn’t intended to be like this“ (and many more examples) if devs knowledge and testing is beyond all doubts? Everytime a skill is changed in its mechanic its just another proof that the player base found a usage of that skill the devs haven't even thought about... how does this fact fit your opinion? :o

---

This is a misread of my posts. I have never said that the devs knowledge and testing is beyond all doubts. I have simply said that they have far more data (in volume) and far more complete data than players have. Further, when both sides do objective data analysis, we should put more weight into the opinions of the party who has more data and more complete data.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I have done no such thing. If the developers have data we aren't privy that demonstrably disapproves the meta, in-game battle logs are relaying inaccurate information. Regardless, we know your statement false because the developers have on, numerous occasions, been outsmarted by the playerbase. They never anticipated players who precast Huton or blow Infuriate/Raw Intuition and delay pulling. For an entire expansion they insisted Paladin were fine yet caved come Stormblood.

---

The developers having more complete information does not make player battle logs false. You are free to draw your own conclusions about what the battle log is telling you, but objectively speaking, whoever has the more fuller, complete information when performing objective data analysis should be weighted far more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

They don't actually have a better understanding. None of the dev team players at even a remotely comparable level to World First raiders. This is true of virtually every game due to time constraints. A primary reason many games employ test servers is for this very reason.

---

They do, actually. When you create something—anything, it doesn't matter what—you have a far greater understanding of it than anyone else, because you understand how it is constructed to the most minute details. Also, in the case of game development, metrics, internal testing, simulations and what not gives them enough data to make up for them not being "world first raiders." Note: I am not agreeing that they aren't comparable to world first raiders, but I'm giving you that for the sake of argument.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Operative word being "major." Perception is key here. The devs do not necessarily see Bard missing out of Battle Litany on Disembowel as a "major disadvantage" because their only concern is can every job clear the content. Yoshida's statement is both casual minded and intended to stop being locking out certain jobs. It's a PR response and little else. It has absolutely nothing to do with "higher quality data" or whatever other nebulous term. I mean, consider the alternative. Paying customers wouldn't exactly be pleased to hear the Producer say, "Yeah, no. Samurai is useless. Play Dragoon/Ninja," if they enjoyed the former.

---

Yes, perception is key, but not in the way that you are using it. When he says there is no major advantage, he is acknowledging there may be some slight edge or what not do this mythical meta concept, but not to the point where it makes any real difference.

What you (and others) need to understand is that developers (the producer, in particular) does not offer opinions on the game because he fancies them. He offers an opinion based on game metrics. Every development studio does this, and S-E is no different. The opinions are based entirely in objective data.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renryuu

I'm tired of swapping to another job only for that job to be deemed worthless in the eyes of the community and end up being excluded from potential play. I'm tired of swapping jobs and ending up being mediocre in them all because I haven't dedicated myself to focusing on one and learning it fully. I just want to be able to enjoy the game with people and have fun learning and mastering a singular job instead of constantly gimping myself. I just don't know what to do anymore. x_x

---

Just stick to the class you like. Surely, all class is not equal but you just need to be good in your class. Let say you are rdm that can do 6000dps. No one will care that you are rdm or not.

edit
one other thing that might be done. Relocate to jp datacenter(Tonberry should have the highest eng player base).
I almost never see pt that doesn't want a certain job unless most classes are filled(sure they don't want 2 sch or no mch/brd).


Ps. Maybe find fc that have fun play/progress dungeon.

^this, sure some class is bad compare to others but, they all are still in the margin of "you can do it with this class" state, instead of great success or excellent you just end up with good or ok impression.

i've seen a guild party did an endgame stuff with only RDM as their dps (i think its from reddit), granted its guild party so they have coordination advantage but the point is it can be done.

there is bazillion player in this game, there must be a community where you fit in

dont feel sad/mad with your class, i play it because i like this class not because i will be the best dps if i pick this class. i play this game, not played by this game right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eli85

The developers having more complete information does not make player battle logs false. You are free to draw your own conclusions about what the battle log is telling you, but objectively speaking, whoever has the more fuller, complete information when performing objective data analysis should be weighted far more.

---

This is a simple dichotomy. Either the battle logs are accurate or inaccurate. If the developers have information that isn't being relayed to the players, then the current logs lie. You cannot get around that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eli85

They do, actually. When you create something—anything, it doesn't matter what—you have a far greater understanding of it than anyone else, because you understand how it is constructed to the most minute details. Also, in the case of game development, metrics, internal testing, simulations and what not gives them enough data to make up for them not being "world first raiders." Note: I am not agreeing that they aren't comparable to world first raiders, but I'm giving you that for the sake of argument.

---

Really? Why have developers outright acknowledged high level players are better than they are. Having a vague idea and being capable of executing do not necessarily correlate. In the case of FFXIV, all their testing is done with God Mode on. It was among the primary reason Gordias failed so spectacularly. They balanced individual mechanics with invisibility on but never tested how putting everything together in a normal environment would work.

If they aren't better than World First or even good raiders. They won't know the same intricacies we do. I reiterate, the devs never anticipated people would do prepull shenanigan with Ninja and Warrior hence why Infuriate is now locked behind active combat and Hide refreshes your Mudras. Those changes were in direct response to players figuring out better alternatives. Going further back, Yoshida even admitted he thought tanks tanking outside Defiance/Shield were insane. Yes, the Producer, couldn't fathom why people did that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eli85

Yes, perception is key, but not in the way that you are using it. When he says there is no major advantage, he is acknowledging there may be some slight edge or what not do this mythical meta concept, but not to the point where it makes any real difference.

What you (and others) need to understand is that developers (the producer, in particular) does not offer opinions on the game because he fancies them. He offers an opinion based on game metrics. Every development studio does this, and S-E is no different. The opinions are based entirely in objective data.

---

No, you need to understand how PR operates. Developers lies, or stretch the truth if we're being generous. You needs look no further than Destiny 2 and some of its insidious tactics of late. In fact, Bungie advertised experience gains that players eventually discovered were being throttled, i.e. intentionally lowered to prevent skilled players from advancing too quickly. When caught, they claimed a bug... then doubled the necessary experience. And we haven't even covered the nonsense EA tries to get away with.

Anywho.

Your entire argument hinges on a simple philosophy: Jobs are all secretly balanced due to "higher quality data" that we are not privy to. If this were true, the developers are idiots for not releasing this information. Why? It destroys the meta. Because until the playerbase has objective, written, proof, they will always fall back on FFLogs and ACT. No one cares what Yoshida claims. They want numbers that can be cross referenced and properly scrutinized. By your insistence, the developers have this information, but won't release it because... reasons? Furthermore, this inherently makes job changes pointless. Why did Black Mage get a fairly high buff? Why is Samurai slated for one? According to you, there is no meta, thus neither job has any reason to see changes. At least to their damage.

Basically, your stance makes the dev team appear as utter fools who possess the tools to destroy a culture they openly dislike ((FFlogs) yet won't, and make job changes to already balanced jobs because... boredom, I guess?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Levy9

You're missing my point. Is the average player going to sync up their raid buffs in coordination with another player's buffs so that they stack consistently in a pug group? Probably not. If they don't coordinate like this, the benefit of having a meta comp decreases from when a coordinated group is using it. I didn't say there was no possible advantage for a pug. Secondly, the Blackmage's job is pure damage. Your point is a little unfair, because it assumes that the blackmage player is bad at their job's designated task while the MCH is at least half aware. Suppose the MCH forgets to hypercharge again after the first or second CD.

I've played with many Bards and MCH's who never use any mana/tp raid buffs in 24 mans while the healers casts multiple raises.

---

That's the thing though. A meta group performs above average not only at the best levels of play, but also at the fairly low levels of play. 24-mans are also hardly an indicator of acceptable Savage progression or even current Extreme content party performance, which is the only place any "meta" holds weight. Even if a Bard may have poor DPS, they can at least press their big blue button when the healer yells at them. It's not like Blunt Arrow, where the yelling could only come too late.

Assuming equal skill between two parties, one meta and one not, the non-meta party will generally only outperform the meta party if their skill is almost all consolidated within one to two key players with highly independent damage. If your Monk, Samurai, or Summoner are far more skilled than the rest of the party, it's worth building around them. Otherwise, at least as far as we know for now (though Monk and BLM are breaking expectations in constant uptime fights and SMN is still performing very well so this may change), the meta will outperform the non-meta across all skill levels. Maybe not by much, but if you were to take enough samples multiple times each over various skill levels, you'd find their average extends too far ahead to merely be statistical noise. It's not as huge a gap as many would report, but it's there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eli85

They do, actually. When you create something—anything, it doesn't matter what—you have a far greater understanding of it than anyone else, because you understand how it is constructed to the most minute details.

---

That is simply not true, except for a moment just after the creating.
There have been many, many cases throughout history of people making things behave in ways thought impossible by the original creator. This is because they had spent enough time using and analyzing the item in question that they had obtained a far better understanding of its behaviour than the creator ever did.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MistakeNot

That is simply not true, except for a moment just after the creating.
There have been many, many cases throughout history of people making things behave in ways thought impossible by the original creator. This is because they had spent enough time using and analyzing the item in question that they had obtained a far better understanding of its behaviour than the creator ever did.

---

Unfortunately, OP of your quoted post has never seen speedruns or anything. A lot of game developers are so surprised and excited/a little embarrassed to find out how much better the players know their game than they do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

This is a simple dichotomy. Either the battle logs are accurate or inaccurate. If the developers have information that isn't being relayed to the players, then the current logs lie. You cannot get around that.

---

Battle logs, from the player perspective are accurate; however the developers have all of the battle logs and can see how combat plays out from a coding level, and, therefore, have a more complete picture of the data.

It's quite easy to get around that.

Quote:

---

Really? Why have developers outright acknowledged high level players are better than they are. Having a vague idea and being capable of executing do not necessarily correlate. In the case of FFXIV, all their testing is done with God Mode on. It was among the primary reason Gordias failed so spectacularly. They balanced individual mechanics with invisibility on but never tested how putting everything together in a normal environment would work.

If they aren't better than World First or even good raiders. They won't know the same intricacies we do. I reiterate, the devs never anticipated people would do prepull shenanigan with Ninja and Warrior hence why Infuriate is now locked behind active combat and Hide refreshes your Mudras. Those changes were in direct response to players figuring out better alternatives. Going further back, Yoshida even admitted he thought tanks tanking outside Defiance/Shield were insane. Yes, the Producer, couldn't fathom why people did that.

---

None of this disproves the notion that the developers (who created the game) have a greater understanding of the game than players do. Players come up with a different tactic than they anticipated in one raid tier; it does not mean that the players now have a greater collective understanding of how the game works.

Quote:

---

No, you need to understand how PR operates. Developers lies, or stretch the truth if we're being generous. You needs look no further than Destiny 2 and some of its insidious tactics of late. In fact, Bungie advertised experience gains that players eventually discovered were being throttled, i.e. intentionally lowered to prevent skilled players from advancing too quickly. When caught, they claimed a bug... then doubled the necessary experience. And we haven't even covered the nonsense EA tries to get away with.

---

We're not talking about Bungie or EA. We're talking about S-E. Yet even still, there are two different kinds of statements: selling the game (this is where lying or stretching the truth) and explaining how an aspect of the game works (this is where Yoshida's comments fall). The developers answered the meta by looking into game data (objective dataset) and gave an opinion based on what they found. This is not a lie or PR. It's forwarding an objective conclusion based on objective datasets.

Quote:

---

Your entire argument hinges on a simple philosophy: Jobs are all secretly balanced due to "higher quality data" that we are not privy to. If this were true, the developers are idiots for not releasing this information. Why? It destroys the meta. Because until the playerbase has objective, written, proof, they will always fall back on FFLogs and ACT. No one cares what Yoshida claims. They want numbers that can be cross referenced and properly scrutinized. By your insistence, the developers have this information, but won't release it because... reasons? Furthermore, this inherently makes job changes pointless. Why did Black Mage get a fairly high buff? Why is Samurai slated for one? According to you, there is no meta, thus neither job has any reason to see changes. At least to their damage.

Basically, your stance makes the dev team appear as utter fools who possess the tools to destroy a culture they openly dislike ((FFlogs) yet won't, and make job changes to already balanced jobs because... boredom, I guess?

---

Why do you think Yoshida said what he said? He wants to make it clear the meta is a fiction. Their data and data analysis supports this. Not sure why the message is so hard to understand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MistakeNot

That is simply not true, except for a moment just after the creating.
There have been many, many cases throughout history of people making things behave in ways thought impossible by the original creator. This is because they had spent enough time using and analyzing the item in question that they had obtained a far better understanding of its behaviour than the creator ever did.

---

This is factually incorrect. When you create something, you know how the minutiae fit together, how the different element interacts together, you know it better than any fan could ever do. Sure, I'll give you that fans can come up with solid understandings, present something new, but that never, ever replicates a creator's understanding.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tsilyi

Unfortunately, OP of your quoted post has never seen speedruns or anything. A lot of game developers are so surprised and excited/a little embarrassed to find out how much better the players know their game than they do.

---

I have seen speed runs, the silly and irrelevant concept that it is. But I have seen it. Would you like to tell me what other things you know for a certainty that I haven't seen?

drg, nin and brd are mostly wanted in pfs, not because they are meta, but cause they buff the other players..


if meta jobs didnt buff others like those do, they'd be way less desired

sure, rdm is still desired in prog and brd also for mp song etc. , desired jobs ofc exist, for reasons other than buffing dps

but the real reason why so many want the known "meta" jobs atm, is like mentioned before, due to them bufing others personal (fflogs) dps ...lol..

(if blm and sam where meta, due to high dps, ofc theyd be wanted in parties. ., but never as much as nin, drg or brd/ mch atm, cause they don't buff others dps like drg & co)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eli85

He wants to make it clear the meta is a fiction.

---

You lost me here. They also thought all tanks were going to start stacking tenacity because it was such a "powerful" stat. They also thought Dark Knight and Samurai were fine (at least until recently).

You're argument actually reminds me a lot of pollsters. You know, when they claim things like "Americans believe in _____", but they actually only surveyed like a 1000 people.

So we base our info off only a fraction of data made available by players volunteering it, while SE has access to everyone's data (we suppose).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eli85

None of this disproves the notion that the developers (who created the game) have a greater understanding of the game than players do.

---

This statement is vague af. I don't think anyone would deny they have a great understanding of the coding, networking, technical capabilities/limitations, etc. of their game. That doesn't mean they're all capable of competing with a world first group. So you're actually talking about 2 different things: Dev's knowledge of how the game operates and player's knowledge of how to get the most out of it. One is not required for the other.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eli85

This is factually incorrect. When you create something, you know how the minutiae fit together, how the different element interacts together, you know it better than any fan could ever do.

---

Really? So, guys like Nikola Tesla never existed? Interesting..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eli85

Why do you think Yoshida said what he said? He wants to make it clear the meta is a fiction. Their data and data analysis supports this. Not sure why the message is so hard to understand.

---

He admittedly said that there are discrepancies between jobs but they're doing their best to make them small (and doing a good job on it since SB's launch). Though the community won't percieve them as small because of how they compare eachother on fflogs and how percentiles and shoving seconds off a kill work and most importantly, how good it feels to recieve other job's buffs during a run.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eli85

I have seen speed runs, the silly and irrelevant concept that it is.

---

I seriously hope you are just trying to put down players who enjoy the excitement of beating their old times or trying to do better in fights (as sad as that already is) because calling speedrunning a "silly and irrelevant concept" is pretty insulting.

You know there are entire charities and events based around speedrunning? You know that events like these have gone on to make money that will save peoples lives? You know that are many people who derive enjoyment from watching people speedrun?

I really hope you aren't calling that irrelevant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tizzy_Tormentor

I seriously hope you are just trying to put down players who enjoy the excitement of beating their old times or trying to do better in fights (as sad as that already is) because calling speedrunning a "silly and irrelevant concept" is pretty insulting.

You know there are entire charities and events based around speedrunning? You know that events like these have gone on to make money that will save peoples lives? You know that are many people who derive enjoyment from watching people speedrun?

I really hope you aren't calling that irrelevant.

---

Compairing speedrunning mario for money to help fight cancer to a raid in an mmo is not a good comparison no matter how you do it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veliena

Compairing speedrunning mario for money to help fight cancer to a raid in an mmo is not a good comparison no matter how you do it.

---

I will admit, its a bit of a shaky comparison, but saying the concept of speedrunning is "silly and irrelevant" is rather pompous considering there are many people who enjoy it and its done some good.

Even in this game, speedkills are an enjoyable way to play, it can be fun to break your own records, you don't have to enjoy speedkilling, but its not entirely fair to call it "irrelevant" because of that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eli85

snip

---

There's too much wrong here to go bit by bit, but let's just start with this one.

It should be obvious that player understanding would quickly overwhelm developer understanding the very moment developers chose to play-test it themselves to determine likely results, rather than appropriately tuning for potentially endless simulations. That varying gear, compositions, openers, strategies, and syncs were all compressed merely into multiple samples of one setup per fight should be a brightly flashing alarm.

As for any understanding of the basics of their system -- one need look no further than Ninja and the original Dragoon and Monk builds. Hopefully they've learned a lot since then. But those each required catching up to the players' deeper understanding of the advantages and disadvantages of each toolkit, noted in detail within a week of the game and later the job's release.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eli85

This is factually incorrect. When you create something, you know how the minutiae fit together, how the different element interacts together, you know it better than any fan could ever do. Sure, I'll give you that fans can come up with solid understandings, present something new, but that never, ever replicates a creator's understanding.

---

Wrong. Just because you have built something does not mean you know how it will behave in all circumstances. To know that you do not need to know how it is constructed - you need to test it, analyze the test results, do more tests, etc.
WIth that you can gain a far more complete knowledge of behaviour than the creator had.

I could for example build a model aircraft. Having built it will I automatically know its maximum speed, or its maximum range? No, of course not. To know those it is not enough to know how it is constructed. You need to either do a lot of theoretical calculations or a lot of testing - and those can be done equally well by people other than the creator.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eli85

I have seen speed runs, the silly and irrelevant concept that it is. But I have seen it. Would you like to tell me what other things you know for a certainty that I haven't seen?

---

Can't have a discussion with someone who simply dismisses or outright insults any information brought to them because it doesn't suit their own argument. The fact remains that speedruns are just one example of players knowing a game better than or at least as well as the developers. We have brought up incidents and information that add to our case while sadly you have simply repeated the same "developers know more than any player/can do no wrong" refrain. I was willing to speak to you because you were originally being respectful but the discussion has devolved to outright insults and that is simply not something worth participating in.

Developer will always be outsmart by players. Dungeons we have right now is a good example. During players outsmart developer with 2.0 dungeon begin. META group exist is cause player understand class better than developer. That´s it why Developer need to buff/nerf class.
Developer is alway though like this "oh good/cool idea to create a X ability" without realise how powerful it help with clear content. Trick attack was the reason why nin most of time get nerf from tp to damage and developer still having difficult to balance it.

I think the main issue is how the "meta" is approached by players and the devs.

Meta is used in various ways, and yes it can be considered a speed run tool, it is useful in other situations as well.

For speedrunning, it provides the fastest kills, generally.

For the rest of the community its just a safer bet. You could bring a BLM or SAM and clear, yes. But, a BLM or SAM, for example, would have to preform at say, 85+ percentile. Where you could have simply brought a say, NIN, who, even if performing at say 65 percentile, still provides buffs ect for the group. So, the nin is a safer bet.

The issue then is, how do we fix this? I think the easiest way, is to increase the number of people in a raid from 8 to say, 12.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eli85

Battle logs, from the player perspective are accurate; however the developers have all of the battle logs and can see how combat plays out from a coding level, and, therefore, have a more complete picture of the data.

It's quite easy to get around that.

---

... this makes so little sense it actually hurts. There is no perception with numbers. They are either accurate or they aren't. You can spin this a thousand different ways but it all comes back to that single dichotomy. According to you, the developers have more information than we do, thus the battle logs aren't relaying the whole picture.

Quote:

---

None of this disproves the notion that the developers (who created the game) have a greater understanding of the game than players do. Players come up with a different tactic than they anticipated in one raid tier; it does not mean that the players now have a greater collective understanding of how the game works.

---

See MistakeNot's rebuttal.

Quote:

---

We're not talking about Bungie or EA. We're talking about S-E. Yet even still, there are two different kinds of statements: selling the game (this is where lying or stretching the truth) and explaining how an aspect of the game works (this is where Yoshida's comments fall). The developers answered the meta by looking into game data (objective dataset) and gave an opinion based on what they found. This is not a lie or PR. It's forwarding an objective conclusion based on objective datasets.

---

No, no. You do not get to handwave examples. SE is no less innocent in controversies. Your stance argument hinged on the notion developers always speak the truth. I provided two examples that explicably refute that.

Quote:

---

Why do you think Yoshida said what he said? He wants to make it clear the meta is a fiction. Their data and data analysis supports this. Not sure why the message is so hard to understand.

---

To encourage people not to exclude weaker jobs. As I said, if the developers have "a more complete picture of data," why not release that precise information publicly? Once again, no one will care what Yoshida claims without hard evidence they can promptly scrutinized. The "message" is hard to understand because your entire argument boils down to "Yoshida said so." Even if we took the idea of ACT being unreliable at face value, we have nothing else to go by except his word. Once again, no one will care what Yoshida claims without hard evidence they can prompt scrutinized.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veliena

But, a BLM or SAM, for example, would have to preform at say, 85+ percentile.

---

Percentiles are not a fix metric but rather comparative.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

Percentiles are not a fix metric but rather comparative.

---

I know this, just trying to give an example of why people take one over the other. Its not exact or anything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veliena

I know this, just trying to give an example of why people take one over the other. Its not exact or anything.

---

But they're also class-comparative. A NIN can hit 100% with less DPS than the 7.4k BLM in their O6S party, for example, and that BLM still won't necessarily be even 98%.

The unsupportive DPS would have to do as much personal damage as the other's personal and indirect damage contribution combined, but none of that is going to be reflected directly in their fflogs parses.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

... this makes so little sense it actually hurts. There is no perception with numbers. They are either accurate or they aren't. You can spin this a thousand different ways but it all comes back to that single dichotomy. According to you, the developers have more information than we do, thus the battle logs aren't relaying the whole picture.
...
Even if we took the idea of ACT being unreliable at face value, we have nothing else to go by except his word. Once again, no one will care what Yoshida claims without hard evidence they can prompt scrutinized.

---

For solo numbers ACT/fflogs are 99.X% accurate, but for party contributions they're not as perfect because battle logs don't record dot damage and the server only sends a combined tick in the data packet, so it's impossible to tell the exact damage each dot did or whose it was, what crit/dh and what didn't. We also know from pvp that SE does have their own damage calculation system, so it's fair to assume that they have the more complete data.

It's questionable if they know how all the possible party setups interact with each other though, as there's some evidence pointing towards physical ranged classes being possibly underestimated (SSS dummy numbers). It's also possible that the numbers are skewed on purpose because of some undisclosed design philosophy. We just really don't know.

Saying there is no meta is just a flatout lie.
Some classes are inferior in terms of DPS and that is a fact.
Just like taking a SCH + WHM and excluding AST is a dps loss.
If a class does less dps it needs a utility buff it is a simple fact and SE is ignoring this concept.
Why bring a BLM when a drg brings more effective DPS.
Why make a party without a NIN when the groups dps will be lower without one?
Meta sucks and is ruining raiding. People have to abandon classes they like for ones that preform and that makes the game unfun and drives people away.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Silver_Blade

Why bring a BLM when a drg brings more effective DPS.

---

Unless a 5% piercing buff, a 15% crit buff up for 8.33% of the time, and a 5% damage buff up for 16.67% up from the time can contribute 750+ DPS by themselves atop, a DRG is no longer necessarily going to be more efficient than an equally skilled BLM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Silver_Blade

Why make a party without a NIN when the groups dps will be lower without one?

---

That's not inherently the case at all. If another class can do more than the NIN's damage + the damage contributed by Trick Attack, and there are no significant damage-saving uses of Shadewalker or Smokescreen, then the group's DPS will be higher with that class instead of the NIN.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Silver_Blade

Meta sucks and is ruining raiding. People have to abandon classes they like for ones that preform and that makes the game unfun and drives people away.

---

Correction: people mistaking a slight and ever shifting balance of the numbers as a fixed rule suck and ruin raiding. Those who have the guts to acknowledge the actual math and test their job's potential are still alive and going strong in contradiction of any former "meta", and will work to shape what's new for their skill levels in the fights they're experimenting in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitfox

For solo numbers ACT/fflogs are 99.X% accurate, but for party contributions they're not as perfect because battle logs don't record dot damage and the server only sends a combined tick in the data packet, so it's impossible to tell the exact damage each dot did or whose it was, what crit/dh and what didn't. We also know from pvp that SE does have their own damage calculation system, so it's fair to assume that they have the more complete data.

It's questionable if they know how all the possible party setups interact with each other though, as there's some evidence pointing towards physical ranged classes being possibly underestimated (SSS dummy numbers). It's also possible that the numbers are skewed on purpose because of some undisclosed design philosophy. We just really don't know.

---

I am aware, though ACT remains incredibly close in how it estimates DoT damage. Regardless, the person I quoted has claimed the meta simply doesn't exist. This inherently implies jobs like DRG and NIN—known for their staggeringly high utility buffs—do not actually provide more, all because Yoshida used broad terms in asserting no one job holds a "major advantage," which, itself, is somewhat subjective due to interpretation. If we are to believe they have data that directly contradicts the meta, it's utterly idiotic on their part not to release this information as nothing Yoshida says will have any impact over ACT and FFlogs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Unless a 5% piercing buff, a 15% crit buff up for 8.33% of the time, and a 5% damage buff up for 16.67% up from the time can contribute 750+ DPS by themselves atop, a DRG is no longer necessarily going to be more efficient than an equally skilled BLM.

---

DRG does offer nearly that amount, especially due to how much of BRD's damage is rooted in Crit. Those numbers only increase with both physical ranged hence the year long prevalence of DRG/NIN/BRD/MCH. They all circle buff one another. Granted, BLM is far better off now than it has been in a while. SAM, on the other hand, is borderline useless.

Another factor regarding Meta preference is the inherent safety net. An average BLM offers nothing whereas a comparably average DRG at least increases BRD/MCH's damage. Therefore, it's a safer gamble to take the DRG.

Now I will agree people overstate just how beneficial meta jobs are. BLM, for instance, is in a pretty strong spot right now. That being said, it's equally disingenuous to claim those utility jobs aren't better because, statistically, they are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Silver_Blade

Snip

---

WHM vs AST raid damage contribuition is dependant on RNG and encounter length, WHM's personal was elavated to higher scales since Stormblood's launch and their presence with bulk heals gives SCH more space to DPS. This comparison isn't flat out or easy to make. But in general, yes AST should be better. If you watch speedruns you'll see they'll keep wiping on purpose until they get good card draws to meet a certain time threshold they are aiming for. The minimum usually being the enough to beat WHM's damage contribuition.

Unless you've two Physical Ranged, Disembowel isn't that strong nowadays. So bringing a BLM or any other caster is fair and not a bad choice since its buffs. Just not the best choice. Bringing a caster when you don't have a DRG for example is a good choice to make your party damage better even though you're not doing the best possible combo.

MNK's rdps is very close to NIN nowadays. People just percieve NIN as better because they're used to it since basically NIN's launch and Trick makes them feel better than Brotherhood does.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

DRG does offer nearly that amount, especially due to how much of BRD's damage is rooted in Crit. Those numbers only increase with both physical ranged hence the year long prevalence of DRG/NIN/BRD/MCH. They all circle buff one another. Granted, BLM is far better off now than it has been in a while. SAM, on the other hand, is borderline useless.

---

Agreed, which is why I will continue to insist that SAM needs certain small buffs. I just find some of the awkward gimmick raid support ideas others have come up with to this effect (e.g. 15% Slashing), on the assumption that no one will take a job that cannot improve the others' ability to pad their FFlog percentiles, downright scary.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Another factor regarding Meta preference is the inherent safety net. An average BLM offers nothing whereas a comparably average DRG at least increases BRD/MCH's damage. Therefore, it's a safer gamble to take the DRG.

---

The safety net would technically work in the reverse there, if considering just the piercing damage. Now two players, up from just one, both need to perform to the best of their ability to maximize the job's potential. In reality, it's the Bard/MCH and the DS target especially, but also anyone who stands to benefit from Battle Litany. That's a lot more dependence than simply expecting one DPS to do his DPS correctly. If both could consistently produce the same total DPS (personal and raid combined), and the BLM isn't somehow at higher risk by nature of the fight, then the BLM is technically lower risk; you only need one wholly skilled player to execute all that damage, rather than 3 (DRG, DS-target, Ranged) to 8. There's less interdependence, fewer ways to lose out.

(And it's not like the DRG can continue contributing DS or piercing debuffs (beyond the remainder of the Disembowel duration) while he's dead, either.)

I'd generally assumed that is precisely why the interdependent means of damage tended to be tuned slightly harder: they really are more fragile, and therefore more high risk. Other parts of the meta toolkit may help to mitigate that risk, but that interdependence makes it still very much a part of meta play at the moment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Now I will agree people overstate just how beneficial meta jobs are. BLM, for instance, is in a pretty strong spot right now. That being said, it's equally disingenuous to claim those utility jobs aren't better because, statistically, they are.

---

I've never said they aren't. My post just before this pointed out that there is a statistically significant difference.

I've merely said that those far too many of those enforcing the meta are doing so via secondhand knowledge alone, and do not fully understand or are even capable of calculating their actual benefits, whereas those who are thus capable have also been the same ones to prove that the numbers are free to shift within the right conditions towards new optimals.

While it'll take a couple more weeks to really see all that everyone is capable of, best of the best parses are starting to throw the dominance of interdependent contribution methods such as through our meta compositions into question. The difference between 7.5k and 6.8k is really quite a lot for even Piercing, DS, and BL to take on, for instance. Naturally, that gap has been inflated as people will play towards their strengths with non-AoE cards and the like, but at the very least it shows incredibly tight proximity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The safety net would technically work in the reverse there, if considering just the piercing damage.

---

Why are we only considering piercing? I merely used DRG as an example but the logic applies to all utility based jobs. An average Monk is superior to an average BLM on the basis Brotherhood buffs the raid. If the WAR is good, they gain a substantially benefit from Brotherhood. Same can be said of NIN and Trick. While an average NIN may not optimize it's usage, the group still benefits. Selfish DPS jobs only provide damage, thus if they aren't able to clearly separate themselves, they're far less useful.

A death also impacts selfish DPS more as the entirety of their damage comes from themselves.

None of this is to say people should enforce the meta in pugs, but it does remain a safer gamble, depending on the skill of the people you already have.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Why are we only considering piercing?

---

Because it's the same parameters you just used in the quote directly above my response. No more than that, no less than that.

Quote:

---

whereas a comparably average DRG at least increases BRD/MCH's damage

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Selfish DPS jobs only provide damage, thus if they aren't able to clearly separate themselves, they're far less useful.

---

Fair enough, but this is only to the same degree as a interdependent DPS is able to not only clearly separate themselves through personal DPS, but also apply their buffs at the appropriate times. An indirect contributor has to worry not only about syncing their own skills to other (de)buffs, but also about ensuring their (de)buffs are up at the appropriate times for others' use. Granted, this will tend to be an obvious enough schedule after TA-5 or TA-6, etc., but it is still one greater factor of difficulty.

Yes, an interdependent is less dependent on their own performance to contribute, but this is only really possible if they're less skilled at maximizing their own damage than maximizing others'. The two tend to hang quite closely together. In general it would seem like as long as one's getting their Trick Attack up on time, at least they're contributing that, but I rarely see this occur sufficiently when the Ninja's own dps in insufficient for example.

Quote:

---

A death also impacts selfish DPS more as the entirety of their damage comes from themselves.

---

This is only the case if one died having just finished using their raid debuff, such that their contribution seemingly lingers. Otherwise they're just as useless when dead. By any other perspective, though, they simply applied and/or snapshotted their DPS (direct and indirect) and died, same as any DPS who can contribute only personally.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

None of this is to say people should enforce the meta in pugs, but it does remain a safer gamble, depending on the skill of the people you already have.

---

That last bit's important, though. As it is interdependent, just as a perfect group has more to gain, an imperfect group has more to lose. Most groups aren't equally skilled, member to member, either. And if one really is significantly more skilled than the rest of their group, it can definitely be easier to carry on a more directly contributing class.

I'll agree it's more often than not a safer bet -- even across the majority of group skill levels -- since it tends to also afford additional helpful utilities even beyond DPS, but it's far from something worth considering a universal rule, especially as soon as skill levels within the group itself may differ.

I think we can all agree that BLM and SAM could use something that makes them stand out as in something only they can do

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Remedi

I think we can all agree that BLM and SAM could use something that makes them stand out as in something only they can do

---

You mean like, I don't know, do insane amounts of raw damage like no other class? Well, Samurai should do more at least. BLM, even though it brings no utility, does insane raw damage, so much so that if you subtract rDPS taken and given they sometimes still come out on top and are very close to other DPS overall to the say the least in same percentile categories.

I'd say current balance is pretty good in terms of raid DPS contribution in an average party, except for RDM and maybe SAM. By average I mean everyone doing their basic and having good uptime but do not optimize the rotation, buff timing for the fight. The imbalance thing right now I feel are utilities that does not directly effect rDPS, like refresh, tactician, mantra, smoke, raise, SiO, DV, PoA, cover. Which make the fight safer and easier to do. I don't know how should SE fix this while keeping the identity of the classes/jobs.

One thing I would like to say is, IMO, classes/jobs should not be balanced around speedkill where every party member is 95+ if not 99 or 100 percentile on fflog. If so, it either means "utility DPS" like NIN/DRG/BRD/MCH are so weak that they won't work unless 4 jobs are brought together PLUS tanks and healers are very good, which apparently doesn't fix the meta situation. Or it can be "selfish DPS" are so broken that you can basically ignore tanks'/healers' DPS and hard carry a team that can't be done with utility DPS, which is likely to make them highly preferred if not demanding in average PUG. The JP DC I'm playing on rn, selfish DPS are and have been better than utility DPS in PUG for clearing since deltascape dropped, because they are less reliant on good players in a party to clear content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starflake

You mean like, I don't know, do insane amounts of raw damage like no other class? Well, Samurai should do more at least. BLM, even though it brings no utility, does insane raw damage, so much so that if you subtract rDPS taken and given they sometimes still come out on top and are very close to other DPS overall to the say the least in same percentile categories.

---

Meta comp achieves better dps a DRG with double ranged bring more dmg than a BLM for example so no dmg in any form is not enough, they require something that makes you say that if we had a BLM/SAM we could've done this (insert w/e part of a boss fight) better, atm they don't stand out aside from dmg they have nothing going for them

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sawamura

Developer will always be outsmart by players. Dungeons we have right now is a good example. During players outsmart developer with 2.0 dungeon begin. META group exist is cause player understand class better than developer. That´s it why Developer need to buff/nerf class.
Developer is alway though like this "oh good/cool idea to create a X ability" without realise how powerful it help with clear content. Trick attack was the reason why nin most of time get nerf from tp to damage and developer still having difficult to balance it.

---

And the fact the Devs want to remove Sneak Attack and keep Trick Attack on Ninja since the beginning of Stormblood says a lot about them wanting Ninjas to fill that part of the role while still putting out some solid DPS.

Let me help you out OP;

As a veteran of MMO's as whole the meta will only be useful for speed running endgame content. You can do just fine with the default or below average classes. Also if you want to know what kind of class will be part of the meta (for funzies)...two things to look out for; Magic Defense + Strong team buffs. I knew the Astro and Dragoon were easy meta choice due to the group buffs alone.

Maybe a quote from Yoshi from LL translation can put some of the META talks to rest.

Quote:

---

Also, there seems to be a trend where players believe they are at a disadvantage when there is a certain job in the raid. There won’t be a major advantage or disadvantage no matter what setup you have. This type of trend gives a negative impression to specific jobs. We would appreciate if the community would stop being swayed by this trend.

---

So Meta is something made up entirely by the community, with the Devs refusing to acknowledge it and not making any changes that would encourage it.