Tank dps harrasment

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HazyAssaulter

People have to want to be helped in order to be helped. In this situation, OP doesn't want help improving his numbers. If he wanted that he would have asked or looked up any number of guides to improving tank DPS. Instead, he would rather complain on a forum and make his logs private.

---

Not the tangent that I've started to discuss. Good day, goodbye.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Estelle9lives

Their review wasn't entirely accurate though. You spent more globals healing than the WHM, and largely outhealed them (although there was no need to heal so much on O1S, I can understand wanting to play safe).

---

You're right, guess I must have misread something. Also, do you know what the active% under healing means? I thought it meant something like how much of the instance the player spent healing, but I'm 100% sure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HazyAssaulter

People have to want to be helped in order to be helped. In this situation, OP doesn't want help improving his numbers. If he wanted that he would have asked or looked up any number of guides to improving tank DPS. Instead, he would rather complain on a forum and make his logs private.

---

Because 1) OP wasn't asking for help in improvement in the first place.

2) This wasn't a post about Savage/Ex content that you've brought up multiple times. Yes, it was mentioned, and it has been said many times that the PF has their rules - but the majority of the OPs post was about dungeons/hunts - things that don't really require a tank to try to put up huge numbers.

3) As you said, if he/she wanted the help, they would've asked for the help. This wasn't about improving tank DPS at all.

4) OP probably didn't want to be parsed in the first place...they made it clear that they had no idea that their logs had been updated. If somebody doesn't want to be parsed, there is nothing wrong with getting rid of logs, especially if its without consent/approval/knowledge. OP has made it clear that it's affecting their play in casual content. This little meta about tank DPS doesn't belong in casual content - that should stay in the endgame content and possibly the expert dungeons, where that extra DPS actually does count for something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xerek

Well, given I have nine clears of O1S and five of O2S and exactly two logs up apparently, that already shows me the site is incomplete. I wonder which two it recorded, my first two? If so, that explains a lot. As I noted before, definately not getting the full picture. Also, if FFLogs shows large gaps where I wasn't doing anything...yeah, definately not my later runs. XD

But, according to FFLogs, I have only two runs and am a terrible AST? Kinda...really makes my point for me.

---

Fflogs only record what people parse and upload. If you want your logs to be more accurate and show all your clears you will either need to upload them yourself or play with a friend who will.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Estelle9lives

Nope, the log in question was dated one week ago.

Their review wasn't entirely accurate though. You spent more globals healing than the WHM, and largely outhealed them (although there was no need to heal so much on O1S, I can understand wanting to play safe). Here's a rough breakdown:

Your GCDs spent healing: 58 / OGCDs spent healing: 8
WHM GCDs spent healing: 17 / OGCDs spent healing: 20 (23 if you count Benison)

One thing you can work on is your CPM/Active time. You spent almost 1/3 of the fight not executing any actions, whereas the WHM had 97% active time. Keeping your GCD rolling is really important to improve how you perform in this game.

---

Thanks for that. I suppose I should clarify, or at least provide a touch more detail after rereading my post. To be clear, I'm just getting started raiding. Fifteen clears combined for O1S and O2S is barely baby steps. And I will openly admit I have room for improvement. If it sounded like I was saying I was playing at veteran-raider levels and that FFLogs would show me as scrub, that was not what I intended. My point was simply that the situation can influence things in ways the numbers don't reflect. I'll admit I do hesitate at times because I PUG these fights. I can't fully trust anyone, especially at first, and I'm still in pre-4.0 mindset where my instinct is that I can't DPS in brief windows because any one of my PUG-mates could need immediate healing, an outdated mindset brought about by Cleric Stance. I can say with 100% certainty my numbers would be far better were I in a static that I ran those fourteen clears with. I know when I run other content with my FC it's like night and day what I can comfortable weave in. But FFLogs doesn't (and can't) note if that run was PUGed or not. And that all goes back to what I initially said (and others have), that as a tool for self-improvement, FFLogs can be quite handy. Used as an absolute arbiter of the ability of someone else, especially for the purpose of judgement and harassment, it's far from perfect.

...though I still wonder why only logs for four our of fourteen clears are up. Actually, I'm only assuming the four posted logs are clears. Given that I PUG it, there have been a number of...well...let's just say, *not* clears. Also, thank you Estelle, for giving me something to look at going forward.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HazyAssaulter

Fflogs only record what people parse and upload. If you want your logs to be more accurate and show all your clears you will either need to upload them yourself or play with a friend who will.

---

Oh. Well, that answers that, then. One less mystery in the world, thanks!

Yes you can report people for this. Its a form of harassment. "If your not doing x, y and z you're trash/trolling" is a form of abuse and can put a bad mark on someone's record. People CANNOT force you to play a way you don't want to play. If they are being a dick about it, then report

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaivaC

This little meta about tank DPS doesn't belong in casual content

---

Why doesn't it? If you ask me, the problem isn't that people aren't top 10% of their class, the problem is that people are unwilling to give the small amount of effort it takes to do more than the bare minimum. And if you can't do more than the bare minimum in casual content, why should people expect you to be successful in harder content?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryugami

People CANNOT force you to play a way you don't want to play.

---

This is a two way street. Yes, you cannot force people to play the way you want. However, you also cannot force people to accept your way of play either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

If you actually know how to use FFlogs, you can pin-point the precise moment someone died, how they died and what led to their death. It's far from simply a numerical tool.

---

Fair enough, if that's how it works, since I don't have the expertise to say. But if, as I've read here, it only records data from parsed runs, then it's extremely bias anyways. In my case, I never parse (iirc it's technically against the rules anyways, though they never act on it). So my data is very minimal and drawn from completely random parties I've joined where someone parsed and uploaded my data without my consent. Since the players interested in parsing are generally pretty mainstream, the only data is from mainstream parties I've joined, which is something I rarely do anyways :rolleyes:.

Knowing what I do now, I find it even more pathetic that that random guy messaged me the other day just to bash me about my FFlog stats...

Also, I doubt FFlogs would be able to track anything besides what can be deduced from numbers, though. You might be able to tell how the fight went from the numbers, but if I'm parsing an all-DPS run of a dungeon and using bouncing to prevent damage on a boss, the FFlogs will show poor DPS numbers, when in actuality that's because the DPS players needed to intentionally modify their own rotations to match each others' DPS outputs, rather than maximizing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xerek

Well, given I have nine clears of O1S and five of O2S and exactly two logs up apparently, that already shows me the site is incomplete. I wonder which two it recorded, my first two? If so, that explains a lot. As I noted before, definately not getting the full picture. Also, if FFLogs shows large gaps where I wasn't doing anything...yeah, definately not my later runs. XD

But, according to FFLogs, I have only two runs and am a terrible AST? Kinda...really makes my point for me.

---

According to FFLogs - you have 2 runs uploaded. Saying that you are a terrible ast is drawing meaning from the data. The site itself is not saying that you are bad, it just says "this is how you did and this is the data from the run". "This is where your damage is compared to the other logs that have been uploaded for this particular fight." The only person here who's saying you're bad is you. Most here just disagree with your statement that we're not getting the full picture from fflogs not really true. Also please remember that you're the one who invited people to check your logs and that you're the one who brought them up.

I'm sure that your casts-per-minute have improved with later clears. We were just trying to articulate that fflogs has a lot of information on it that you can use provided that you know how to look for it. Which most of us dont. A good place to get started would be The Moogle Post website that recently had an article covering the basics on how to use fflogs. The site itself is not incomplete. It merely shows the data that gets uploaded to it. If you want to see how you're doing now, then you can just ask people in your party to upload the stuff. They might not of course, but if you're on PS4 like me that's really the only choice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoodRat

You're right, guess I must have misread something. Also, do you know what the active% under healing means? I thought it meant something like how much of the instance the player spent healing, but I'm 100% sure.

---

I'm not 100% sure, but I think it's the active % of your actual active time (not the whole encounter) that had any effect on healing. This is effected by OGCDs and regens as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xerek

...Also, thank you Estelle, for giving me something to look at going forward.

---

No problem! And yes, I can understand the hesitation on DPSing if you're a new raiding healer. I have been raiding since Final Coil and this was my first tier as a full on healer main, and it still took me quite a bit to get to a level where I was satisfied with my performance. The thing about healing in this game is that there is no random pattern of damage, once you know what is coming and how much HP people need to survive, you can fill all those gaps with DPS spells.

For example: O1S Roar > Roar into Charybdis > Roar. People only need HP to survive the first two Roars, it makes no difference if the party gets really low before the Charybdis (as that spell reduces everyone to critical HP regardless), so assuming people had enough HP from the start, both healers can spend the whole time DPSing. GCD healing isn't even require if you have an AST+SCH combo (Earthly Star + Indom completely neutralizes Charybdis). When I do Savage runs in PF for fun, I see a lot of healers trying to desperately top people off after these first two Roars.

This kind of mindset and confidence to follow the ABC rule (always be casting) will come with time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki

Also, I doubt FFlogs would be able to track anything besides what can be deduced from numbers, though. You might be able to tell how the fight went from the numbers, but if I'm parsing an all-DPS run of a dungeon and using bouncing to prevent damage on a boss, the FFlogs will show poor DPS numbers, when in actuality that's because the DPS players needed to intentionally modify their own rotations to match each others' DPS outputs, rather than maximizing.

---

Hit the replay button and it will show you each players positioning the entire fight. Or the time table to check incoming damage to see who has aggro, who stopped attacking, etc.

Also what you said doesn't make any sense. Assuming players are bouncing aggro they will stop DPSing so of course FFlogs will reflect that.

It's a powerful tool for players to improve their gameplay and understanding and only ignorant players try to demonize it or use it as some kind of trophy.

Yup, if you see any indication it's a Parse or FFlogs being used against you then hit that report button. Circumstances be damned, there's no excuse to be a jerk to someone. And if they mentioned Parsing data in game... well it's a fitting punishment for being dense enough to actually advertise a ToS violation.

If the dungeon is finished with no one dying and tank has never lost hate while the tank\healer does super low DPS and takes 35 minutes

-OR-

If the dungeon is finished with no one dying and tank has never lost hate while the tank\healer help with DPS and takes 15 minutes

WHICH ONES BETTER?

I hate this whole false dichotomy where it's portrayed as only possible for a Healer or Tank to do their jobs if they completely neglect DPSing. There are PLENTY of talented Healers\Tanks who do both just fine. If you aren't one, it isn't on the community to pat you on the head and give you points for trying, it's on you to improve.

Or be stubborn and childish and drop party. Honestly, do that. Chances are we'll get a better replacement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hannia

I know that this is a touchy subject, ....

---

Well if i was you i wouldnt give that to much thought , i usually stay in Tank Stance unless im OT^^
For the simple reason i want to play a tank not dps ^^

If you have troubles with specific persons , just put em on blacklist :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saint_Angeles

If the dungeon is finished with no one dying and tank has never lost hate while the tank\healer does super low DPS and takes 35 minutes

-OR-

If the dungeon is finished with no one dying and tank has never lost hate while the tank\healer help with DPS and takes 15 minutes

WHICH ONES BETTER?

I hate this whole false dichotomy where it's portrayed as only possible for a Healer or Tank to do their jobs if they completely neglect DPSing. There are PLENTY of talented Healers\Tanks who do both just fine. If you aren't one, it isn't on the community to pat you on the head and give you points for trying, it's on you to improve.

Or be stubborn and childish and drop party. Honestly, do that. Chances are we'll get a better replacement.

---

oh then id prefer the 35 min :) because id help a new player to have fun in the game :)
id rather not have a 15 min run , where no one talks and the tank runs around like some hyperactive ADHD child XD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Khemorex

oh then id prefer the 35 min :) because id help a new player to have fun in the game :)
id rather not have a 15 min run , where no one talks and the tank runs around like some hyperactive ADHD child XD

---

Who said anything about a new player? And who says you cant talk during fast dungeon runs?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mavrias

Who said anything about a new player? And who says you cant talk during fast dungeon runs?

---

PS4 Virtual Keyboard says hi

Hey OP, you're on my data center. Let's put a PF together and get on each other's friend list. Then I will be happy to come heal for you anytime. If none of the little circles go red for me, then I consider your job well done. If you wanna dps, okay, so long as aggro's fine. If you don't, then I'm good, too. And it will save you from getting kicked since we'll outnumber the ADHD kiddies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saint_Angeles

If the dungeon is finished with no one dying and tank has never lost hate while the tank\healer does super low DPS and takes 35 minutes

-OR-

If the dungeon is finished with no one dying and tank has never lost hate while the tank\healer help with DPS and takes 15 minutes

WHICH ONES BETTER?

I hate this whole false dichotomy where it's portrayed as only possible for a Healer or Tank to do their jobs if they completely neglect DPSing. There are PLENTY of talented Healers\Tanks who do both just fine. If you aren't one, it isn't on the community to pat you on the head and give you points for trying, it's on you to improve.

Or be stubborn and childish and drop party. Honestly, do that. Chances are we'll get a better replacement.

---

Some people just aren't that good, or can't get better. That is why there is casual content and hardcore content. What bothers me is when some raiders expect people in casual content to have the same hardcore drive as they do. Would I prefer a 15 minute Expert run over a 35 minute one? Of course. Am I going to throw a fit that DF threw me in with "filthy casuals" and prompted a longer run? No. Not at all. Because Expert is casual content. I push myself when and where I can, but I not going to demand raid-level play in casual content. Now, if I see someone standing around doing absolutely nothing, I might say something. But that's all it would be. Saying something, nicely. But I will not require a raider's drive out of them. Now, if we're talking EX or Savage, then yes, I'll be more critical and have higher expectations of those around me.

Casual content is for casuals. Some people cannot reach the drive of raiders, and it's unfair to expect them to. If I PUG casual content and pull teammates that are highly geared and extremely effective, I consider that a bonus, not the baseline.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pentt

Hit the replay button and it will show you each players positioning the entire fight. Or the time table to check incoming damage to see who has aggro, who stopped attacking, etc.

Also what you said doesn't make any sense. Assuming players are bouncing aggro they will stop DPSing so of course FFlogs will reflect that.

It's a powerful tool for players to improve their gameplay and understanding and only ignorant players try to demonize it or use it as some kind of trophy.

---

Well like I said, I don't have the expertise. I have literally gone on FFlogs ONCE. After that guy started flaming me over my FFlogs data, so I decided to see what he was on about. I didn't like what I saw, and knew it was against the ToS to parse anyways, so I frankly don't care about FFlogs. I was just speculating based on what I gathered from what you said.

In particular, I didn't like how it had my data, with my name on it, on a third party site for every troll in the universe to go read.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki

In particular, I didn't like how it had my data, with my name on it, on a third party site for every troll in the universe to go read.

---

Yeah tbh FFlogs being a 3rd party site you have to sign up to then opt OUT of has never sat well with me. It should really be an opt IN thing.

Tbf im what the elite call casual trash but my logs are dope =D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xerek

Some people just aren't that good, or can't get better.

---

Sorry, I have to disagree on sentence 1. There's nobody who cannot get better. Not a single person has the inability to improve. There are people who are satisfied with theur current level of performance and thus do not wish to be better, but that is different.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CaTi

Yeah tbh FFlogs being a 3rd party site you have to sign up to then opt OUT of has never sat well with me. It should really be an opt IN thing.

---

Yeah I just looked at the guide and that is a quite a lot of effort to hide something that shouldn't be viable in the first place

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CaTi

PS4 Virtual Keyboard says hi

---

So... The run has to take 30+ minutes because you're too cheap to buy a 10$ usb keyboard?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mavrias

So... The run has to take 30+ minutes because you're too cheap to buy a 10$ usb keyboard?

---

2$
At the dollar store

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arkturius

2$
At the dollar store

---

Nvm im not a console peasant but i am casual trash nontheless

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mavrias

So... The run has to take 30+ minutes because you're too cheap to buy a 10$ usb keyboard?

---

Not at all. Just pointing out there are indeed people who can't type and play fast. And some people value chatting in dungeons. I don't personally but it is a multiplayer game so y'know.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mavrias

So... The run has to take 30+ minutes because you're too cheap to buy a 10$ usb keyboard?

---

Regardless of that, do you really want your healer chatting it up on the keyboard when you just pulled half the dungeon and your health bar is plummeting? CDs will only mitigate so much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Sorry, I have to disagree on sentence 1. There's nobody who cannot get better. Not a single person has the inability to improve. There are people who are satisfied with theur current level of performance and thus do not wish to be better, but that is different.

---

According to that, given enough game time, anyone could become the best player on the server on any class. You honestly don't believe people have skill ceilings?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xerek

Snip
Some people cannot reach the drive of raiders, and it\\'s unfair to expect them to. If I PUG casual content and pull teammates that are highly geared and extremely effective, I consider that a bonus, not the baseline.

---

Yeah I have the same mindset sure I might mumble if a dungeon is taking a long time, but I am not going to criticize anyone for it. If it’s high end content I will suggest a few things, but never call someone bad. The only time I give suggestions in normal content is when someone is new or I see something really off. Like when I was in Qarn fighting the golem boss and the 60 synched blm was just casting thunder II over and over again. I asked why they said oh sorry and we moved on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MeridaQ

Yeah I have the same mindset sure I might mumble if a dungeon is taking a long time, but I am not going to criticize anyone for it. If it’s high end content I will suggest a few things, but never call someone bad. The only time I give suggestions in normal content is when someone is new or I see something really off. Like when I was in Qarn fighting the golem boss and the 60 synched blm was just casting thunder II over and over again. I asked why they said oh sorry and we moved on.

---

pretty sure everyone forgot that the op states they farm EX content but debuff tank DF etc? i literally do 50 roulette on my crap warrior with no job skills unlocked for clusters and have had 0 complaints why? i do dps

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arkturius

pretty sure everyone forgot that the op states they farm EX content but debuff tank DF etc? i literally do 50 roulette on my crap warrior with no job skills unlocked for clusters and have had 0 complaints why? i do dps

---

Or, perhaps...why? You hold aggro. Honestly, in casual content I won't complain about a tank unless they struggle to hold aggro.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xerek

Honestly, in casual content I won't complain about a tank unless they struggle to hold aggro.

---

Which is really the only time something needs to be done, whether it be talking to them to help them fix it, or if the problem persists, kicking them(which I honestly don't do, since almost all the time everyone is so over geared that we are fine doing it anyways with everyone tanking)

I'm a full-on aggressive "Grit is a cooldown" non-tank stance every chance I get tank, and even I think harassing someone that isn't tanking out of stance is unacceptable.

Learning to tank out of stance is vital to more difficult raids, and is absolutely something a tank should strive to learn at higher level...when they're ready to do so. It doesn't help anyone if someone who's still learning tries to DPS all the things but doesn't know how to mitigate and gets killed, you can't DPS if you're dead.

If a tank says they're more comfortable in tank stance and they do all the other aspects of their job correctly (mitigate properly, do the correct rotation, threat, etc.), that's absolutely fine.

First of all, it's simply ridiculous to demand high DPS performance from any job in DF content such as dungeons or hunts. As long as everyone is trying to actively contribute, it should be enough, even though their playing isn't optional.

However, when we talk about PF and raid finder content, the expectations are higher, since the content itself requires certain level of optimisation. In Ultimate, Savage and extremes, you should already be familiar with your job and know how to use it in a way that's the most beneficial to your party. Most of all you should aim for being as useful to your party as possible. If you know that you could tank the content (with an enrage!) in DPS stance and improve your party's DPS like that but you refuse to do it, making it harder for your group than it should be, it's understandable if your group doesn't want you with them.

Also, party finder groups are free to set their own entry requirements as they wish, no matter how ridiculous they are. And, at the same time, it doesn't make much sense for people to join a group where everyone else has a completely different mentality towards performance and optimisation. If you're excluded from a group because everyone else there is ranking significantly higher than you - especially for reasons such as refusing to play your job according to the current standard - chances are your mentality is quite different from theirs.

Lastly, there's nothing in the ToS against checking players' logs and including or excluding them from groups because of that. It's done all the time, even as written in party finder descriptions, and there is nothing that has been or will be done against it, since checking someone's logs doesn't even mean you're using a parser. All it means is you're browsing a website. That's like saying you're reporting people for saying they've checked your Lodestone profile. :D (Of course harassment based on someone's logs is and should be a reportable offense, but simply pointing out that your public records for a particular fight are too low for a group's requirements is not harassment.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taika

Lastly, there's nothing in the ToS against checking players' logs and including or excluding them from groups because of that. It's done all the time, even as written in party finder descriptions, and there is nothing that has or will be done against it, since checking someone's logs doesn't even mean you're using a parser. All it means is you're browsing a website. That's like saying you're reporting people for saying they've checked your Lodestone profile. :D (Of course harassment based on someone's logs is and should be a reportable offense, but simply pointing out that your public records for a particular fight are too low for a group's requirements is not harassment.)

---

Aren't those logs being made using data that should not be obtainable without people breaking the ToS. I'm starting to wonder if the harassment from people abusing FFlogs maybe something FFLogs or SE themselves will need to look into.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

Aren't those logs being made using data that should not be obtainable without people breaking the ToS. I'm starting to wonder if the harassment from people abusing FFlogs maybe something FFLogs or SE themselves will need to look into.

---

It's more of a grey area than anything else. They don't care if you use it, as long as there is zero harassment going on because of it. BUT, that doesn't exactly mean you can use it openly as there are some people that even the mentioning of a parser will send them reporting to the GMs(I remember seeing a post somewhere on the forums where someone stated they did that if someone said they use a parser).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

Aren't those logs being made using data that should not be obtainable without people breaking the ToS. I'm starting to wonder if the harassment from people abusing FFlogs maybe something FFLogs or SE themselves will need to look into.

---

Everything from the parsers and FFlogs is being pulled directly from the battle log in game. The one you can read. It just makes it even easier to read.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

Aren't those logs being made using data that should not be obtainable without people breaking the ToS. I'm starting to wonder if the harassment from people abusing FFlogs maybe something FFLogs or SE themselves will need to look into.

---

They're based on parsing which is against ToS, yes (although the developers openly turn a blind eye to it).
(Edit: I don't know if it would be possible to have a similar site but upgrade direct game log data instead of taking it through a parser. But yeah, as already pointed out, the parser basically just reads your game battle log.) But having your logs up there does not mean you have been parsing, it just means someone in your group has. During the discussion in the latest parser thread, I checked there were over 110 000 public group parses just for OS1, so there are almost 900 000 player parses just for that fight (of course there are generally multiple parses for one player). If SE was to ban all the people who they'd find there, well, you can imagine what that would do to the playerbase (in fact, they would ban you).

You really need to separate harassment from stating numbers though, those are two very different things.