Can we get entry ilvl for levelling dungeons already?

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Nope. Sure haven't.

I've been asking for restrictions so when leveling another role/class I don't end up in dungeons I ought have no business in the first place within the leveling roulette.

But I'm being told I need to keep a retainer's worth of leveling gear on me at all times to queue for that. That makes no sense. I'm not suggesting to do Expert in 220 gear here. We're talking Leveling Roulette in 110/260 gear. That should be sufficient for that.

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Then perhaps I misunderstood your post I initially responded to, because it sounded like you were saying “I don’t have adequate gear for this dungeon, but I don’t care if I get thrown into it regardless. Because I don’t have adequate storage/don’t want to store gear for leveling in my retainers/armory chest”. Hence why I responded as I did: even with the expanded armory chest and with 2 free retainers, there is more than enough space to store leveling gear for jobs you intend to level in the near future, or for remaining jobs in a particular role (e.g., I haven’t leveled PLD/WAR to 70 yet, so I stored my tank leveling gear in my retainers for the time being).

I was never telling you to “keep a retainer's worth of leveling gear on [you] at all times”; I was suggesting that, if you didn’t want it taking up space in your Armory, to store it in a retainer until you are ready to use it again. Because you complained about how it was a burden on inventory space to have so much leveling gear on your person at one time (even though I still think your post was a little bit of an exaggeration, but, I digress). Then you said that “NONE of you” actually do that, even though people have responded to show that they do. Hence, why people told you to speak for yourself.

However, with regards to your statement about leveling roulette, it is unacceptable for people in i110 gear to enter into The Vault or Great Gubal Library. Same for SB: people in i260 gear should not go into Doma Castle or Castrum Abania. Especially if they are a tank/healer. The mobs actually start to hit hard in those instances, and I would love to see a tank in i260 Unaugmented gear survive the final boss in Castrum Abania, especially after he starts applying bleed with his slash attacks. The gear is just not up to standards for the instance. Just read the Duty Finder thread about all the nightmare stories of tanks in Unaugmented Ironworks gear in The Vault or Unaugmented Shire in Bardam’s Mettle.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Ironically, those screaming "elitism" at the top of their lunges often think themselves entitled to clear content and that veterans have to help.

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Or even worse they are people who play for 3 or more years and still act like they started yesterday.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

However, with regards to your statement about leveling roulette, it is unacceptable for people in i110 gear to enter into The Vault or Great Gubal Library.

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100% agree, I do heavily support ilevel restrictions on what pops up for someone in the leveling roulette.

You probably missed what I initially said like 10 pages ago, I don't expect you to read everything. But there were many saying that I was wrong for not wanting to keep interim gear for a leveling roulette. I don't mind holding onto 50 and 60 gear (stuff prior to 50 is pretty trivial). That's pretty easy to manage. But three to four tiers of gear is just too much to bother with. Some can call it lazy, I really could care less what they think. I'm there to get the daily out of the way and get to 70 on those classes. There's no reason for to remain at pre70 on the classes I intend to play any longer then the minimum needed.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

But three to four tiers of gear is just too much to bother with.

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You can keep the 55/65 gear tiers then and a lot less people will get on your case, especially if you're DPS. Or just, you know, buy the thing as soon as you hit the relevant level and get rid of it after, not everyone is the hoarder I am where by the time I get to leveling some classes I have full sets all the way through to 70 from running things on my other classes. wait you keep saying people like me don't exist, never mind then.

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Some can call it lazy, I really could care less what they think.

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Until you get kicked for differences in playstyle because a leveling roulette can still net you in your on-level dungeon. And I know you want them to not let you run that content if that's the case, but as I said before, that's directly contradictory to the roulettes being there to feed queues.

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There's no reason for to remain at pre70 on the classes I intend to play any longer then the minimum needed.

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I hear having better gear helps get things done faster, but it might be just a rumor, might wanna check that.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Until you get kicked for differences in playstyle because a leveling roulette can still net you in your on-level dungeon.

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This doesn't happen because I usually run with 1 or 2 others who are fine with the gear I'm rolling with. If it ever rolls a dungeon the gear can't get through, we just vote disband it.

Majority rules and all that.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

This doesn't happen because I usually run with 1 or 2 others who are fine with the gear I'm rolling with. If it ever rolls a dungeon the gear can't get through, we just vote disband it.
Majority rules and all that.

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What kind of gear are you wearing so that you *can't* get through the dungeon? Because you *can* get through all of SB leveling stuff in 270 even if it won't be particularly swift and easy.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Who the hell carries, even on their retainers, full sets of 53, 55, and 57 gear or their 60-70 counterparts. NONE of you do that.

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I have 8 retainers and 6 of them are completely full of gear for leveling alts.

Yes, this is something that needs to happen.

Also on the i270 point, it's really sufficient for all of the SB leveling dungeons if you're not playing like a complete novice, which you really shouldn't be at this point unless you're buying jump books or something. That's pretty much how I got through the MSQ, just like how I did with i130 gear for Heavensward.

Gear upgrades while progressing through HW/SB need to happen if you only reached those expansions in bare minimum gear, though. But for the people that managed to get themselves to the ilvl cap before the next expansion (all i130 before HW, all i270 before SB), imo part of the "reward" for their efforts is being able to cruise through the next expansion's leveling dungeons without particularly needing to stop and worry about gear.

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Originally Posted by Lodinn

What kind of gear are you wearing so that you *can't* get through the dungeon? Because you *can* get through all of SB leveling stuff in 270 even if it won't be particularly swift and easy.

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Funny thing is, 270 is what drops in these dungeons. And from sources people don't want to hear about, I was capable of out damaging (2-4x in many cases) the other DPS while leveling to 70. This was in reference to an event about a year ago where I queued as a tank in 110 gear and got the Aery in a leveling roulette. Survived just fine, but holding agro off of 260 geared peeps was not easy. Fast forward to now, it did the same thing again about a week and a half ago while leveling a DPS. Again dungeon completed, but I was a few points behind the other DPS. Given my performance with the shire gear, that could have been alot worse if I didn't know the rotations as well as I did.

But at the end of the day, no its not going to ruin a dungeon run for me if I get stuck in that situation. I don't consider myself simply average though, others in that situation would struggle and fail.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

I have 8 retainers and 6 of them are completely full of gear for leveling alts.

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+$12/month to run a leveling roulette because of a chance of a midtier dungeon in HW or SB doesn't make sense to me. I have the default 2. But if you're willing to pay for 6 more retainers for me for the next 3 months, I'll immediately concede the argument. Seems like a cheap way for you to win an argument, you interested?

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

+$12/month to run a leveling roulette because of a chance of a midtier dungeon in HW or SB doesn't make sense to me. I have the default 2. But if you're willing to pay for 6 more retainers for me for the next 3 months, I'll immediately concede the argument. Seems like a cheap way for you to win an argument, you interested?

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I hoard gear for possible glams. I would help, but that's a big chunk of my monthly food budget.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

Or even worse they are people who play for 3 or more years and still act like they started yesterday.

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And have the mentor crown on at that... The number of mentors I've had who outright didn't know how to play is astronomical.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

This doesn't happen because I usually run with 1 or 2 others who are fine with the gear I'm rolling with. If it ever rolls a dungeon the gear can't get through, we just vote disband it.

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You're admitting what you're doing is wrong, otherwise you wouldn't have done that, and still you act like you have some moral high ground. You and yours honestly don't care for the time of the people you end up with in DF, do you? I pray the people you're disbanding on aren't DPS because that's easy a half an hour of them waiting for that queue to pop you just threw down the drain. You didn't even leave so they could hopefully get someone in-progress, no, that would mean you have to soak a penalty, you outright disband. Every single post you make in this thread only shows that the sooner they release SB's equivalent of PotD, the better, because gear isn't the problem when you queue into leveling roulette, your attitude is! This is an mmorpg, people should put a certain effort into running content so as to not overly hurt the gaming experience of those they queue with. Not up for that? Play single player where your performance only affects yourself. It would be one thing if you queued full, but you don't, which means there's always at least one person who has to put up with your crummy behavior. Your'e not only lazy, you're selfish.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

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I agree, and have with all tanks and healers in aug i270 done all of sb lvling with no issues at all, sure you take more dmg but if you know how to play and use your cd's then it is really not that hard.
The thing i hate is people with there gear non auged and half assed in doma+ as there is no excuse for under i270 at that point. But augmented shire gear with standerd V melds is more then doable and if people say otherwise then either they do not know how to play there class or there party does not because even with pubs and randoms, i rarely ever wiped or failed to clear any of the lvling dungeons from 61-69.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Funny thing is, 270 is what drops in these dungeons. ...

But at the end of the day, no its not going to ruin a dungeon run for me if I get stuck in that situation. I don't consider myself simply average though, others in that situation would struggle and fail.

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A similar ilvl does not necessarily indicate a proportional stat difference, to think so is a common mistake though. I believe the highest of these is 282 where as the lowest is 270. That's a 12 ilvl difference and yet...

Augmented Shire 480
Bardam's Mettle 610
Doma Castle 739
Castrum Abania 868

These are tank chest armor values from the end of HW compared to the end of SB leveling dungeons. Aside from also having considerable deficiencies in other stats you can see based on armor alone you're taking nearly double damage in Castrum Abania if you're wearing Augmented Shire gear to a tank just wearing gear from that instance much less being actually ahead. No amount of your personal skill changes the numbers.

To subject your party to this sort of negligence and laziness (especially when you have literally no excuse beyond ' you don't pay my sub' for not doing better) is awful. When I see random undergeared people in DF I tend to ignore it based on the idea that they don't know any better but you certainly do by now and you just refuse to be a courteous human.

In your own way you've actually made it worse on similar players now - where I used to assume inexperience now I'll see the potential carelessness and likely have less patience overall.

Edit: To all those claiming the ease of completing the last few SB dungeons in shire gear without issue... Has it occured to you this isn't a single player game? Your party matters. I'm sure on any healer class I could drag a shire tank through Abania, doesn't mean I should have to. I bet a geared tank could carry an undergeared healer too. The point is we should try to do better and since tge people in this thread make it clear they won't put in that minimal effort then we ask SE to enforce it for us.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

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You assume that even with shire gear people do not have to carry, i have done more dps in some runs, on some bosses even out healed my whm as a pld in my shire gear (In doma btw).
I try to have a top and weapon ready for 68 with penta melds to make up for my lack of defense and stats but when i have literally no space to carry anymore gear then no, i should not have to swap perfectly usable gear out for the sake of a little bit of defense and a few +10 ish stats that in my eyes, is not needed unless the party you play with is all under geared and new to there job (which in 67+ they should not be) Also having being a tank and healer for a while i know most the limets of people (Or avg) and try to not pull too big or too small depending on the group. As a tank you adapt to your group same as a healer, you do not expect everyone to be end game geared in lvling duty's but people seem to forget that part.
P.S i am for this idea of adding restrictions.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

To subject your party to this sort of negligence and laziness (especially when you have literally no excuse beyond ' you don't pay my sub' for not doing better) is awful.

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And the solution is to restrict which dungeon pops up by the player's ilevel.

You already know my stance and no amount of ad homenim attacks, guilt trips, or appeals will change that fact. So the only recourse I'm leaving you is to ask SE to implement the suggested solution. Sorry to say, but I'm leaving you no other option. Your feelings on the matter are irrelevant, the solution would help more players then your unheard pleas to me and others who agree.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

And the solution is to restrict which dungeon pops up by the player's ilevel.

You already know my stance and no amount of ad homenim attacks, guilt trips, or appeals will change that fact. So the only recourse I'm leaving you is to ask SE to implement the suggested solution. Sorry to say, but I'm leaving you no other option. Your feelings on the matter are irrelevant, the solution would help more players then your unheard pleas to me and others who agree.

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They're not feelings, purposefully ignoring something mildly inconvenient to you despite the considerable aid it would grant others is factually inconsiderate and rude.

I wasn't trying to change your mind, I've seen enough people like you in the world to know a general disregard for other people when I see it, I was just disappointed enough with your selfishness that I wanted to take a few minutes to point it out. I'd also hope anyone who runs across this thread down the line sees my post following yours and understands how wrong you are.

As I said at the end of my post you quoted - since this problem persists the only real options are to leave things as they are and continue letting people get carried or to impliment a system which enforces a certain level of perparedness. I know what I'm in favor of but I also underatand how hesitant SE is to ever make changes.

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Originally Posted by SeranaEclipse

You assume that even with shire gear people do not have to carry, i have done more dps in some runs, on some bosses even out healed my whm as a pld in my shire gear (In doma btw).
I try to have a top and weapon ready for 68 with penta melds to make up for my lack of defense and stats but when i have literally no space to carry anymore gear then no, i should not have to swap perfectly usable gear out for the sake of a little bit of defense and a few +10 ish stats that in my eyes, is not needed unless the party you play with is all under geared and new to there job (which in 67+ they should not be) Also having being a tank and healer for a while i know most the limets of people (Or avg) and try to not pull too big or too small depending on the group. As a tank you adapt to your group same as a healer, you do not expect everyone to be end game geared in lvling duty's but people seem to forget that part.
P.S i am for this idea of adding restrictions.

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Great for you, happy you're succeeding, in the post you snipped you can see that it is a lot more than a "little bit" of defence. Also people can enter SB leveling dungeons below augmented shire right now. As happy I am that you support the idea of dungeon ilvl restrictions I have to wonder why you feel the need to point out specific instances in your experience. Antecdotes are not reasons to enact change - any group comp geares enough to not get oneshotted could get carried by an amazing healer, the point is (like that one) the situations you describe are specific times a thing happened. The number of overgeared players carrying woefully undergeared players far outweighs the sparse cases of the inverse.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

ad homenim attacks

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Ad Hominem is when you can't attack the argument so you attack the speaker. This isn't an Ad Hominem, we're openly doing both.
Back on topic, you're so bunkered you can't even see how illogical your idea is. Imagine a 61+ tank farming cracked clusters by queuing naked and thus limiting themselves to Sastasha. That's an exploit and will therefore never be implemented, not when they're bending over backwards trying to get tanks and healers to run SB content. That's why the new tank mounts are locked behind 61+ tanks - because that level means they can get into those very dungeons you're trying to get out of. Ain't gonna happen. Thing is, the benefits for completing leveling roulettes are good enough that even if it'll be locked behind an ilvl requirement based on your highest unlocked dungeon, people will gear up rather than pass up on the roulette. And if they do give up on the roulette, well, we have an entire thread in this forum saying why it's probably for the better.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Imagine a 61+ tank farming cracked clusters by queuing naked and thus limiting themselves to Sastasha. That's an exploit and will therefore never be implemented

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I'd imagine that's easy to fix by checking your potential ilvl (some games do this already). If someone wants to vender their 300+ gear for cracked clusters.. by all means.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

I'd imagine that's easy to fix by checking your potential ilvl (some games do this already). If someone wants to vender their 300+ gear for cracked clusters.. by all means.

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This is essentially what I suggested in the beginning of this thread.

Okay, you've hit 65 and want to queue into Leveling. Your highest available dungeon is Bardam's and the minimum ilvl for that is 268 (I don't know about an actual real number, not the point) so in order to queue for Leveling roulette you then need that class geared to 268.

As long as this is always a number below the gear dropped in the previous dungeon no one can get locked out - even if you're the cheapest person in Eorzea you can grind your way up.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Ad Hominem is when you can't attack the argument so you attack the speaker. This isn't an Ad Hominem, we're openly doing both.

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Sassy, I like it.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

I'd imagine that's easy to fix by checking your potential ilvl (some games do this already). If someone wants to vender their 300+ gear for cracked clusters.. by all means.

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The fact you think this is in any way shape or form logical from the developers' point of view really does mean we're done here. Good day to you. *tips hat*

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Great for you, happy you're succeeding, in the post you snipped you can see that it is a lot more than a "little bit" of defence. Also people can enter SB leveling dungeons below augmented shire right now. As happy I am that you support the idea of dungeon ilvl restrictions I have to wonder why you feel the need to point out specific instances in your experience. Antecdotes are not reasons to enact change - any group comp geares enough to not get oneshotted could get carried by an amazing healer, the point is (like that one) the situations you describe are specific times a thing happened. The number of overgeared players carrying woefully undergeared players far outweighs the sparse cases of the inverse.

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I agree the defense is a big difference later on but that is not what is being argued, and you keep assuming people get amazing healers all the time.
Not every lobby has healers that are good same as for tanks and dps, every player is different and plays differently good or bad.
The gear should be i255 min for siren as any less is just insulting to the rest of the party you get put with, and then scale with each dungeon/trial respectively.
P.S i made the same assumption you did with healers in saying that an amazing healer can carry (Which is actually less common then you would think)

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Originally Posted by SeranaEclipse

I agree the defense is a big difference later on but that is not what is being argued, and you keep assuming people get amazing healers all the time.
Not every lobby has healers that are good same as for tanks and dps, every player is different and plays differently good or bad.
The gear should be i255 min for siren as any less is just insulting to the rest of the party you get put with, and then scale with each dungeon/trial respectively.
P.S i made the same assumption you did with healers in saying that an amazing healer can carry (Which is actually less common then you would think)

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I fully admit I have less perspective on PUG healers than even the average player because I primarily heal.


I think what is being argued is that while it is possible to complete dungeons significantly below an intended ilvl (like 255 for Sirensong) we simply shouldn't have to for a wealth of reasons. One of the primary reasons this is bad is that tanks simply can't survive certain pulls/attacks and if they're matched with a much higher geared DPS they will often have issues holding hate.

I feel like you and I more or less agree we just have expressed our opinions differently.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I fully admit I have less perspective on PUG healers than even the average player because I primarily heal.


I think what is being argued is that while it is possible to complete dungeons significantly below an intended ilvl (like 255 for Sirensong) we simply shouldn't have to for a wealth of reasons. One of the primary reasons this is bad is that tanks simply can't survive certain pulls/attacks and if they're matched with a much higher geared DPS they will often have issues holding hate.

I feel like you and I more or less agree we just have expressed our opinions differently.

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Yes i do agree, and we most likely did.
I wish SE could add a system to the scale down it has now with content where it can scale up gear so all players are equal in lvl/story content as that would provide a better solution then making it player reliant which is less likely to succeed.
But besides that idea the ilvl restrictions would be the only way to help prevent these issues in future and make it a more enjoyable experience for all.

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Originally Posted by SeranaEclipse

I wish SE could add a system to the scale down it has now with content where it can scale up gear so all players are equal in lvl/story content as that would provide a better solution then making it player reliant which is less likely to succeed.

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ilvl progression is about the one thing all game content has in common across the board. Even the end-game content ultimately awards you better gear, to make itself and future content easier. I know we're talking leveling here but that would only postpone the problem because it would let you effectively hit 70 content with level 60 gear. The gear you get from jobs doesn't supply right side so instead of having to gradually improve your gear along the way, you'll suddenly meet a wall, and they rightly should start putting walls at level 70. I don't think that's any improvement.