How's Ultimate?

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

snippity doo dah

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Far more people TRIED to clear than actually cleared. The work, practice, memorization, team meetings, and social networking that goes into every actual clear went a very long way towards keeping the game active. A good chunk of people will at least try to learn the rotations, stat weights, melds, and food that goes into successful clears even if they aren't actually planning to run it themselves and that keeps the game active.

It's like the 200 PotD run. There were far, far more failed clears then people who got to take a picture on the bench at the bottom. Every attempt, every grind to get your weapon and armor maxed, people coming up with tactics for getting past chimeras, keeps the game active.

Sometimes the horse never gets the carrot on the stick before it goes bad or loses interest, but the walk leading to that point would have been much shorter without it.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

10,000 times 12-15 is far less than 400,000 times 12-15 dollars a month but ok, and thats even if 10 thousand players clear it which I doubt as well

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And what is 10.000 times plus your 400.000 times? And don't forget all the people who don't try any savage content at all..maybe they should complain even more than you. If you are not interested in doing that stuff let at least others have that fun and stop complaining just because you are not able or willing to do that content.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

The fact is we already had raids , we could have even more raids on the same difficulty as what we have now eight instead of 4 theres no rule to this. But instead we get something half the raiders of this game cant even do for the small percent of a very already small percent of players. Instead of one new fight could of had more that alot more people could of done, instead of such a small percent. Nobody is sayin make the game super easy, but makin a fight most raiders cant even do anyway is just pointless regardless of if its cool are not. And all that stuff you mention is already in the game it wasnt just introduced into this patch, this was just a cheap way to create the illusion of change.

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The developers like to follow a formula. Even in ARR, there were only 4 8-man raids per every other patch (the Coils). Second Coil had a Savage version, which is probably the closest equivalent to what Ultimate is now. The devs tried something new for the hardcore community that wanted more. If you aren't even trying Ultimate, its addition doesn't impact you at all. It's almost entirely made up of reused assets--I doubt the developers sacrificed Eureka's release for the release of Ultimate, which was NOT the highlight of Patch 4.1; that was Return to Ivalice and Shirogane.

It seems like, contrary to what you're saying, that Ultimate was a success. People are enjoying tackling the content; people are enjoying watching it. I'm eager to finish up Neo and get to Ultimate, as is the rest of my static. Even if we can't beat it, just trying it out is enough for us. And I'm sure a lot of groups probably feel that way. It will be an interesting challenge. Honestly, I'm pleasantly surprised that the developers made a piece of difficult content like Ultimate. The fact that it's still unbeaten is impressive, considering the recent Savage raids were downed in less than a day by world first groups.

ADDITION: To remark on your post about Creator clear rates being the highest--it's like that because, out of the three Alexander raids, Creator was by far the easiest. Gordias was poorly tested and way overtuned even for max ilvl at the time, and as a result destroyed a lot of the raid scene. Midas was the best tuned out of the three, but suffered because of the aftermath of Gordias. Creator was catered to a more midcore population to encourage other players to try out Savage content (and because of the blatant complaining a lot of people did about content accessibility). That's why Creator clear rates are the highest.

I was hoping with Omega they would go back to Midas levels of difficulty, but V3S is easier than A11S and Neo, while fun, is easier than Alexander Prime once you memorize his mechanics.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I was hoping with Omega they would go back to Midas levels of difficulty, but V3S is easier than A11S and Neo, while fun, is easier than Alexander Prime once you memorize his mechanics.

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I tried to find it but perhaps it wasn't in a live letter, I hope I'm not imagining it lol. I recall reading something about them wanting to start omega raids out easier and gradually make them harder.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I tried to find it but perhaps it wasn't in a live letter, I hope I'm not imagining it lol. I recall reading something about them wanting to start omega raids out easier and gradually make them harder.

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I have heard that the next tier they said would be harder. I hope so because I would welcome the challenge (and it be from the content and not PUGs).

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I have heard that the next tier they said would be harder. I hope so because I would welcome the challenge (and it be from the content and not PUGs).

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Well for now there is ultimate savage for the challange which hasn't been beaten yet.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I tried to find it but perhaps it wasn't in a live letter, I hope I'm not imagining it lol. I recall reading something about them wanting to start omega raids out easier and gradually make them harder.

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They did, though I have my doubts. Yoshida has been notorious for hyping up content that doesn't deliver. Granted, Ultimately certainly has lived up to said hype.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

The fact is we already had raids , we could have even more raids on the same difficulty as what we have now eight instead of 4 theres no rule to this.

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Are you dense or just being willfully obtuse? How many times do people have to emphasise Ultimate recycles assets? A new Savage raid necessitates brand new models, animations, arenas and etc. I mean, honestly, what part of this is so difficult to grasp? Ultimate likely cost little more than an extra dungeon. And even that's debatable since the devs claim otherwise. We weren't getting more Savage raids or Eureka if Ultimate didn't exist.

People like bswpayton just don't get the reasoning behind adding difficult content, so they believe they are right and we are wrong just because it is too hard for them to clear. Quite sad, really. What many have asked for is a challenge and never truly got because Square Enix wanted the more softcore players to be able to clear it too. O4S offers rewards vital to making BiS gear. Coils Ultimate offers Glamour. What the problem is? Nothing. If you can't clear Coils Ultimate then oh well, try harder or give up. Just because you can't clear it though doesn't mean it was a mistake. Quite the opposite in fact. This means we have purely optional content that the hardcore players among us can truly enjoy because it isn't faceroll or follow the script and no problem to clear.

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Originally Posted by Joe777

This means we have purely optional content that the hardcore players among us can truly enjoy because it isn't faceroll or follow the script and no problem to clear.

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I think not many people actually enjoy it. They like the idea of it, and they like watching others try since there's not much to do in game at the moment, but really only a tiny percentage of players will stick with it any length of time.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I think not many people actually enjoy it. They like the idea of it, and they like watching others try since there's not much to do in game at the moment, but really only a tiny percentage of players will stick with it any length of time.

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I never said the truly hardcore players weren't a minority :p But that does tend to be how it goes. Only the best will claim victory in content like this.

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Originally Posted by Joe777

I never said the truly hardcore players weren't a minority :p But that does tend to be how it goes. Only the best will claim victory in content like this.

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The same thing can be said for the Feast and it's rewards, but at least everyone can try the Feast, and it lasts beyond a short window of time. This cuts out 90% of the players from the start. Most people will only interact with it if they choose to watch someone's stream. Thats not a particularly good trend in content design for this game, especially since Stormblood is ridiculously content-light.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

The same thing can be said for the Feast and it's rewards, but at least everyone can try the Feast, and it lasts beyond a short window of time. This cuts out 90% of the players from the start. Most people will only interact with it if they choose to watch someone's stream. Thats not a particularly good trend in content design for this game, especially since Stormblood is ridiculously content-light.

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Thank you someone that thinks logical like I said, everyone else is looking through rose colored glasses. I'm sorry but the most hard core raiders don't deserve their own content simply because it's not enough of them to warrant being catered to. And I'm not even opposed to the idea of ultimate. It's just highlighted because of how lacking in content this patch is. If they bring out stuff like this it should always be accompanied with something equivalent for other players.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

The same thing can be said for the Feast and it's rewards, but at least everyone can try the Feast, and it lasts beyond a short window of time. This cuts out 90% of the players from the start. Most people will only interact with it if they choose to watch someone's stream. Thats not a particularly good trend in content design for this game, especially since Stormblood is ridiculously content-light.

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PvP is a joke, you know. No one PvPs seriously nowadays and I have heard tales of The Feast that do not exactly make it good content. That said, there is existing content some people don't want to touch already (exs, savage, etc.), and are perfectly fine not doing so. The trend you speak of started ages ago.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Thank you someone that thinks logical like I said, everyone else is looking through rose colored glasses. I'm sorry but the most hard core raiders don't deserve their own content simply because it's not enough of them to warrant being catered to. And I'm not even opposed to the idea of ultimate. It's just highlighted because of how lacking in content this patch is. If they bring out stuff like this it should always be accompanied with something equivalent for other players.

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So your logic is that because there aren't enough hardcore raiders that they shouldn't get worthy content. That, my friend, is false logic. If players don't have anything to strive for then they will get lazy and complacent and not try hard enough to get good enough to even attempt hardcore content. Coils Ultimate is a mountain to climb and while not everyone can climb it or reach the top it is still something to strive for. Furthermore, why punish good players with faceroll only content? If all content released is so easy everyone could do it and clear it then the game will get boring.

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Originally Posted by Joe777

PvP is a joke, you know. No one PvPs seriously nowadays and I have heard tales of The Feast that do not exactly make it good content. That said, there is existing .

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But that's just ur opinion, tho in my fc nobody has even beat neo exdeath. According to flogs way fewer people have cleared v2s than v4s. So that tells me the content is tuned enough that the drop off in parses are in the thousands. I say make more content like this then waste content for people who aren't even hardly interested in the game but one aspect. Content like shiyru, and up is more than enough to keep the majority of players content. Instead of ultimate we need something challenging but not impossible. In everything it's always people that's above the curve good for them doesn't mean u go and cater to them.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

But that's just ur opinion, tho in my fc nobody has even beat neo exdeath. According to flogs way fewer people have cleared v2s than v4s. So that tells me the content is tuned enough that the drop off in parses are in the thousands. I say make more content like this then waste content for people who aren't even hardly interested in the game but one aspect. Content like shiyru, and up is more than enough to keep the majority of players content. Instead of ultimate we need something challenging but not impossible. In everything it's always people that's above the curve good for them doesn't mean u go and cater to them.

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If they were to follow your logic, they would have to cull content for crafting and gathering. Because a lot of people have little to zero interest in crafting/gathering. What about PvP? The PvP community in FFXIV is small—probably smaller than the Savage raiding community. So should they not add in more PvP content because you deem it unpopular? There are people that subscribe just to raid and do Savage. Gilgamesh and Sargatanas are full of raid-loggers—they log in for raid, clear the floors, log out until next week. A lot of world first groups that have cleared Omega have stopped actively running the content every week because they’re already BiS in the jobs they play, or they run with alternate groups. Ultimate came out, and now those same raiders are active again and enjoying the content they asked for.

A lot of people would quit if the developers decided to stop adding in content for the more hardcore side community because they dislike the trend towards making “Savage” easier. And I think the developers are probably aware of that. They have to cater to everyone—not just the people that you think they should.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

But that's just ur opinion, tho in my fc nobody has even beat neo exdeath. According to flogs way fewer people have cleared v2s than v4s. So that tells me the content is tuned enough that the drop off in parses are in the thousands. I say make more content like this then waste content for people who aren't even hardly interested in the game but one aspect. Content like shiyru, and up is more than enough to keep the majority of players content. Instead of ultimate we need something challenging but not impossible. In everything it's always people that's above the curve good for them doesn't mean u go and cater to them.

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Game developers cater to the softcore playerbase more than you realize. Throwing the hardcores a few bones once in awhile isn't gonna hurt the softcore players.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Thank you someone that thinks logical like I said, everyone else is looking through rose colored glasses. I'm sorry but the most hard core raiders don't deserve their own content simply because it's not enough of them to warrant being catered to. And I'm not even opposed to the idea of ultimate. It's just highlighted because of how lacking in content this patch is. If they bring out stuff like this it should always be accompanied with something equivalent for other players.

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I like how you have one person in a sea of people who agrees with you, and clearly they're "logical." I'll reiterate once again, if the hardcore raiders all begin quitting because the game no longer appeals to them in anyway. Who is making guides; who is joining PFs to help players get their clears? All the guides you see explaining the finer details and job intricacies are done by hardcore players-- the same community who think deserves nothing. The whole Theme Park genre intends to offer content for every demographic, be they hardcore raiders, roleplayers or people simply looking to have fun running a dungeon. If you divvy up this content individually, you'll discover things like crafting, gathering and even certain job (Machinist) have a rather niche audience. I suppose the devs should cut out crafting and PvP. After all, those aren't nearly as popular.

Again, it's one thing to complain 4.1 lacks content. Just stop blaming Ultimate because it has absolutely no bearing on why 4.1 may or may not feel empty.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

If they were to follow your logic, they would have to

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Some people would quit not a lot and if they won't to leave so be it

Who do people think they are to say this was a waste of resources? I'm in a likeminded static of adults that makes jokes with only two raid days and we are working on the GCO and enrage. I fully admiit that this is past my level of skill and I will never clear it unless I change my schedule to hardcore. I still really really LOVE this fight for being so hard. This is absolutely not a waste of resources and is meant for the best of the best IE: 1% of the playerbase is ever going to clear this. People like Xeno and Elysium and the best Japanese raiders have only gotten to 87% or so on Bahamut's health bar. It's meant to be exclusive and if you are saying it is a waste you're just incredibly jealous that it's not for you.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Thank you someone that thinks logical like I said, everyone else is looking through rose colored glasses. I'm sorry but the most hard core raiders don't deserve their own content simply because it's not enough of them to warrant being catered to. And I'm not even opposed to the idea of ultimate. It's just highlighted because of how lacking in content this patch is. If they bring out stuff like this it should always be accompanied with something equivalent for other players.

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I didn't really have an issue with your postings up until you said that. Everyone else is coming down on you because you are continually turning an argument into something its not. Raiders don't deserve their own content? Seriously, it's just ONE fight. Its not even a set of four raids, it's one fight. And again, I have to point out that you are complaining when we are only one patch into this cycle. What exactly do you want the devs to be able to pull off in just four months since Stormblood's initial release?

It is honestly sounding like you want the devs to ignore the hardcore population and just produce patches specifically for casual and midcores. A lot of folks have already pointed out that the hardcores are getting something for them - it's one thing, as opposed to what we've already gotten so far. This 'me, me, me' attitude is immature. Just wait until 4.2. What is so hard about that? Or...oh, I dunno, find something else to do within FFXIV, or just take a break and wait til something catches your interest again. If the devs listened to you, there probably wouldn't be an Ultimate fight. 4.1 was originally supposed to have Eureka, if I remember correctly - the devs probably saw something and they pushed it back.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I like how

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Maybe one person agrees because the majority of players don't even acknowledge ultimate a thing thus don't care about chimming in. This thread would already be dead if people wern't arguing back and fourth because again u guy's are exaggerating the need of said content. Exaggerating the interest people have in it an exaggerating how many hard-core raiders there are when every piece of data available show that when fights are tuned high more people fail than succeed. People in this thread have made a few thousand sound like half the games population and it's not. Hardcore raiders that this content was made for is the equivalent of a small high school in a state with a 500k population

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Originally Posted by Lunafreya

Who do people think they are to .

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Jealous of what exactly it's nothing to be remotely jealous about

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Maybe one person agrees because the majority of players don\\'t even acknowledge ultimate a thing thus don\\'t care about chimming in. This thread would already be dead if people wernt arguing back and fourth because again u guy\\'s are exaggerating the need of said content. Exaggerating the interest people have in it an exaggerating how many hard-core raiders there are when every piece of data avaible show that when fights are tuned high more people fail than succeed. People in this thread have made a few thousand sound like half the games population and it\\'s not. Hardcore raiders that this content was made for is the equivalent of a small high school in a state with a 500k population

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You really don't get it do you? It's the simple fact that no one has cleared it yet despite how many are trying that makes it precisely what the community has asked for. All other hard content was cleared too soon, but this? This is content worthy of those with amazing skill and talent for pushing their limits to the max that needed this. Yes not everyone is in that lot but why does that matter so much to you? Or is it you really are jealous and are lashing out about it rather than accept the content for what it is, root for those doing their absolute best to try to clear it, and try it yourself someday?

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Jealous of what exactly it's nothing to be remotely jealous about

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You incessant insisting that Ultimate is a waste of resources, and the tirade you’ve been on about it since it was announced, does start to sound like you’re jealous and/or salty about how you can’t do the content (be it because of lack or group or lack of skill), and that’s why you think it shouldn’t be in the game. Heck, someone on here not too long ago asked for Kugane jump puzzles to be removed on the sole basis that “I can’t do them, so they shouldn’t be in the game.”

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Originally Posted by Joe777

You really don't get it do you? It's the simple fact that no one has cleared it yet despite how many are trying that makes it precisely what the ?

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what again does jealously have to do with anything. People have already stated that many raiders just log in to raid, or only stay long enough to get bis and leave. Many of the best raiders on my server dont even watch the cut scenes , they dont care about anything in the game but raiding.

Which is totally fine but doesnt mean u should go and bring out the red carpet for them, they arent dedicated to the game once the raids dont go the way they want they are out. Many players arent like that and actually like the game as a whole and that whom content should be protized around always not sometimes but all the time.

The nba doesnt adjust the game around Lebron James because he is the best player in the leauge , or the nfl for Tom Brady. And those players wouldnt expect that either because they are just on another level and take it for what it is, most streamers no they will never get what they want but they play because it provides them a living or just love for the series of ff. Like I said most of those in this thread are just bias , and most prob dont even stand a chance at this content and are still bias but whatever floats ur boat.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

People in this thread have made a few thousand sound like half the games population and it\\'s not. Hardcore raiders that this content was made for is the equivalent of a small high school in a state with a 500k population

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No, you just continuously misinterpret the argument. Those "few thousand" are the players who make all the guides and help the community. To casually dismiss the Xenos, Miyuri and Momos who try to help the community improve shows you don't have any grasp of the trickle down effect. If these players start leaving because the game has become too easy, who will replace them? Someone else just as good... who inevitably grows equally bored as time goes on for the same reasons they did? Many of these players already unsubbed before 4.1 even dropped because they lost faith. Some came back due to Ultimate actually living up to its hype. They deserve some slice of the proverbial pie and your crusade against Ultimate is basically telling them all "Too bad. I don't care what you want."

If Ultimate dwindles in interest, at least the devs finally tried something different. It's a huge step above the same tired tomestone, two dungeon, one primal, four increasingly easier raids they've been doing since Heavensward. And once again, this cost very little to produce. You keep making a big deal over minimal resources. Ultimate didn't delay Eureka, it didn't detract from adding more Savage fights and the devs claim it didn't even take away the one dungeon. So stop acting like Ultimate stole content away from casual players. It didn't.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

they arent dedicated to the game once the raids dont go the way they want

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This is not exclusive to raiders. Many players take breaks or have left because XIV, at times, has lacked content. Hence why I'd agree with you complaining 4.1 didn't add much. It's your incessant whining towards Ultimate I take issue with.

Waste of resources? Good joke. Twitch have more viewers than ever in ff14 now thanks for ultimate. Even sponsored streamers not bring anywhere near that much viewers.

In topic i think this is really cool fight and it is really nice to have something else than super casual content until next raid tier. I bet lot raiders would unsub without that content until next raid tier because there is literally nothing to do otherwise.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You incessant insisting that Ultimate is a waste of resources, and the tirade you’ve been on about it since it was announced, does start to sound like you’re jealous and/or salty about how you can’t do the content (be it because of lack or group or lack of skill), and that’s why you think it shouldn’t be in the game. Heck, someone on here not too long ago asked for Kugane jump puzzles to be removed on the sole basis that “I can’t do them, so they shouldn’t be in the game.”

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Money and riches is something to get jealous about not some content in a video game. So youd be totally wrong on that one and so would anyone else, if I wanted to be jealuos of someone it would be a bill gates , or a mark zukerburg even then they worked for theres so it would be stupid to be jealous of them.

I am just simply sayin if they where going to go outside of the norm then make stuff that most people can actually play not something for even half of those whom raid in the first place cant even do. Everyone else got the same old stale content cycle while , the only new and fresh stuff cant even be done by anyone in the game hardly. This is about lack of playable content. If I where jealous id be whinning about neoexdeath, but I didnt make a peep about it I did the raids that are easiest to do on your own and was totally fine with that. I dont care if people get further, I just want content for more people than a few people dont see how thats really an issue.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Waste of resources? Good joke. Twitch have more viewers than ever in ff14 now thanks for ultimate. Even sponsored streamers not bring anywhere near that much viewers.

In topic i think this is really cool fight and it is really nice to have something else than super casual content until next raid tier. I bet lot raiders would unsub without that content until next raid tier because there is literally nothing to do otherwise.

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One of Team 5150's members got a sponsorship deal during their prog a few days ago. So its definitely picking up.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

doesnt mean u should go and bring out the red carpet for them

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This right here sounds like jealousy, as in you are not one of the people enjoying the new content and wish you could like those that are enjoying it do.

Regarding what has been said about Unending Coils being the only thing from the recent patch and should not have been the only thing: It was not ready in time to make it with 4.1, so they added it with 4.11, which isn't even a big patch, just a small incremental one. If this was all we got with 4.15 for example, that'd be another story.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

No, you just continuously misinterpret the argument. Those "few thousand" are the players who make all the guides and help the .

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I dono maybe people just want to make a living off of games they like. Games way more casual and easier have content streamers have you played swtor , thy are always called out for being to casual are not being challenging enough but that game makes more than this one and have streamers. You again are exaggerating how important these people are , or assuming they would just say oh I dont know I dont wana make money off this game anymore let me go do something else.

Streamers make content that is gona keep them afloat and if ff14 did that then they wouldn't just up and decide to leave. There will always be someone there limit break radio if you listen to them essentially hate this game but yet still base their show around it because thats what the fans want. So stop actin like if ultimate didn't exist then all of suddon people would stop makin any guides and content and what not on it. This game according to SE has the most subs its ever had, and this was before ultimate even came out, and the raid numbers didnt just grow so much that youd say it was all these raiders coming to the game from others.

So again you are just using the trickle down effect to support your argument when it really doesnt, people play this game for many reasons. You will always look at the game through a raiders point of view , and thats just not what brings people to the game there is no data supporting that argument none at all. The question is simple if the game scrapped ultimate and brought something else out that more people had access to and actually liked that was challenging enough. Then just based on numbers alone more people would be happy as opposed to the small amount thats all excited about ultimate.

And also its nothing different more people will still be grinding tomes and doing weeklys than doing ultimate and thats just a fact and u know this as well this content changed nothing for the majority.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Money and riches is something to get jealous about not some content in a video game. So youd be totally wrong on that one and so would anyone else, if I wanted to be jealuos of someone it would be a bill gates , or a mark zukerburg even then they worked for theres so it would be stupid to be jealous of them.

I am just simply sayin if they where going to go outside of the norm then make stuff that most people can actually play not something for even half of those whom raid in the first place cant even do. Everyone else got the same old stale content cycle while , the only new and fresh stuff cant even be done by anyone in the game hardly. This is about lack of playable content. If I where jealous id be whinning about neoexdeath, but I didnt make a peep about it I did the raids that are easiest to do on your own and was totally fine with that. I dont care if people get further, I just want content for more people than a few people dont see how thats really an issue.

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If you aren’t jealous, then why aren’t you just letting this go? Why continue on this tirade?

Ultimate was not the center of 4.1’s release: that was the 24-man Ivalice raid and Shirogane Housing (which, since that affects the entire playerbase as a whole—and is an extremely limited asset in a completely broken system—why aren’t you complaining about it?). Eureka will come out in 4.2, and hopefully it won’t be another Diadem; I think it was a good decision on the developer’s part to delay its release if Eureka doesn’t flop as hard as Diadem did (twice)—because, if you want to talk about something making or breaking the game, if Eureka turns out to be another Diadem, FFXIV is going to suffer for it; I’m fairly confident on that.

The majority of this game has content that is tuned for the more casual side of the playerbase—even Savage and the Ex trials are getting easier so that the more softcore side of the playerbase can get into the content. And while that’s not necessarily a bad thing (content accessibility in general isn’t), the tilt towards everything getting easier is something that a lot of people are growing annoyed with. Raiders are allowed to have their content, too, every once in a while. Sorry that that hurts you you so much.

And, news flash: “money and riches” aren’t the only things one can be jealous of.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

If you aren’t jealous, then why aren’t you just letting this go? Why continue on this tirade?

Ultimate was not the center of 4.1’s release: that was the 24-man Ivalice raid and Shirogane Housing (which, since that affects the entire playerbase as a whole—and .

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If what your sayin is true then anyone whom hasnt cleared neoexdeath or v3s would just be bumping their gums. As Ive said again the fflogs data shows that there arent even more than 5 to 6 k parses on some of the most popular jobs from neoexdeath. So noone can say the raids are easier if they havent even cleared them, thats why i refute this argument the forums is just a voice.

While data from floggs is a much bigger indicated on whats considered hard and whats not, if you and your group find the raids easy then fine, but if you look at the data then it proves that its not as easy for everyone as you may believe it to be. The last time I saw anyone even on the forums complain about how easy the raid was , on release when aka the best players of the game where steam roling them. Months down the line the devs have stated people have struggled with three and four, and the data shows the same thing.

So again this many people thinking the content is easy is just a lie, or have no room to speak if they are still on v3s or exdeath and havent even finished the raid tier. Data is always more important than a couple of people coming to the forums talkin about how easy things are. The saying goes numbers dont lie and talk is cheap, so talk of whats easy means nothing when the data shows that its not.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

If what your sayin is true then anyone whom hasnt cleared neoexdeath or v3s would just be bumping their gums. As Ive said again the fflogs data shows that there arent even more than 5 to 6 k parses on some of the most popular jobs from neoexdeath. So noone can say the raids are easier if they havent even cleared them, thats why i refute this argument the forums is just a voice.

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Omega is easier than any of the Alexander raids, which also progressively got easier, with Midas being the best tuned out of the three. But since you failed to read my comments on that earlier, I’m not going to bother repeating them. It would just be a waste of words.

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So again this many people thinking the content is easy is just a lie, or have no room to speak if they are still on v3s or exdeath and havent even finished the raid tier. Data is always more important than a couple of people coming to the forums talkin about how easy things are. The saying goes numbers dont like and talk is cheap, so talk of whats easy means nothing when the data shows that its not.

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Your argument goes both ways. You haven’t finished the tier; haven’t even cleared V3S, since you said yourself you only did the “easier” floors. So who are you to speak on the difficulty of content you haven’t even done? I have cleared A11S and V3S—Halicarnassus was easier than Cruise Chaser. While I haven’t beaten Neo yet, I have seen GCO, so I’ve basically seen the entire fight (since his mechanics repeat after GCO with the exception of Neverwhere). While healing checks can be intense during things like Almagest and the Grand Crosses, I find the healing checks in A12S to be harder, content I have also done. I feel fairly confident speaking on these matters since I have actually done said content being discussed.

With regards to Gordias, ask anyone who raided at the time how difficult it was compared to Omega—the bosses in Omega all roll over compared to Living Liquid and Manipulator. Same for A8S and Brute Justice.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

thy are always called out for being to casual are not being challenging enough but that game makes more than this one and have streamers. You again are exaggerating how important these people are , or assuming they would just say oh I dont know I dont wana make money off this game anymore let me go do something else.

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Citation needed. You really need to start making up your absolution claims, sweetheart. Regardless, of the three people I named, only one of them streams with any regularity. Most high end raiders who jump into PF or make job guides aren't streamers. Dervy did the vast majority of stat weights for HW yet he got paid next to nothing for his efforts. He did it to help the community.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

thats just not what brings people to the game there is no data supporting that argument none at all.

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Actually, I do. If you look at the speedkill scene, it's practically dead. Why? The hardcore raiders are bored. Don't just take my word for it, listen to Mogtalk where said raiders talk about it. Now before you go on claiming they don't represent a majority, I am well aware of that, but you're delusional if you don't think they impact the community overall. One of the primary reasons Gilgamesh grew into a mega server was due to Elysium's presence and it once being considered the "raid server." You can deny the trickle down effect all you fancy, but when you keep making this idiotic argument below...

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

The question is simple if the game scrapped ultimate and brought something else out that more people had access to and actually liked that was challenging enough. Then just based on numbers alone more people would be happy as opposed to the small amount thats all excited about ultimate.

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For the last time, Ultimate uses recycled assets. How many times and how many people need to hammer that into your head? If they scrap Ultimate tomorrow, you get nothing. There wouldn't be new raids, new dungeons, Eureka or anything because Ultimate required minimalistic resources. This deluded notion Ultimate somehow detracted from the casual playerbase is... just that, delusional. The only one exaggerating here is you.

Its funny you bring up data when the parses have to be uploaded, and I can't say for the rest but if I was uploading a parse I would want it to be my best run. So bringing those numbers isn't really valid.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Omega is easier than any of the Alexander raids, which also progressively got easier, with Midas being the best tuned out of the three. But since you failed to read my comments on that earlier, I’m not going to bother repeating them. It would just be a waste of words.
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You said the key word you, but again floogs shows on plaidan which is one of the most played jobs in savage a 5 thousand player drop off from one to three, and a 10 thousand player drop off in neo exdeath. So again this is data you are going by your own personal experience and people that you know, when data shows that 10 thousand fewer people that started omega have completed the whole thing.

So what am I to do take your word over a glaring 10k player drop off on one of the most popular jobs in the game. Your word my word dont matter when there is proof online already, Im not the one who uses the word easy or undertuned on anything aside from dungeons because thats pretty much a fact its the most accessible content along with potd. I understand that my perspective on whats easy doesnt speak for whats actually being cleared and whats not but according to everyone here I guess data doesnt matter when it comes to their friends and own personal experience.

And as for me I went into v3s one time in a learning group and didnt want to pug it so I just didnt, just like you havent cleared neoexdeath doesn't mean I coudlnt also clear v3s. I just really dont like doing group content that much where i have to depend on other people , and dont like answering to people hence why I left a static I joined after a week Im very much a solo player I dont play the game to make friends (maybe one day that will change). But my experience doesnt matter just like yours does not either, nor anyone in this thread when the data alone speaks for itself on what is or isnt easy, that is a fact Im sorry you wont to disagree with data but it holds more weight than anyone on this forum could ever period.

@Bernkastelx

So your sayin take someones word over data? duh they have to be uploaded but I guess ten thousand fewer people where just to ashamed to upload their neo exdeath clears get out of here with that nonsense

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

You said the key word you, but again floogs shows on plaidan which is one of the most played jobs in savage a 5 thousand player drop off from one to three, and a 10 thousand player drop off in neo exdeath. So again this is data you are going by your own personal experience and people that you know, when data shows that 10 thousand fewer people that started omega have completed the whole thing.

So what am I to do take your word over a glaring 10k player drop off on one of the most popular jobs in the game. Your word my word dont matter when there is proof online already, Im not the one who uses the word easy or undertuned on anything aside from dungeons because thats pretty much a fact its the most accessible content along with potd. I understand that my perspective on whats easy doesnt speak for whats actually being cleared and whats not but according to everyone here I guess data doesnt matter when it comes to their friends and own personal experience.

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Considering it’s also a fact that Omega Savage is easier than Creator, which was easier than Midas, which was easier than Gordias, AND that Gordias was overtuned (guess what? The developers themselves admitted that Gordias had been poorly tested and was far too overtuned given the gear available at the time), I fail to see how you can argue against those FACTS as well. They aren’t opinions.

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And as for me I went into v3s one time in a learning group and didnt want to pug it so I just didnt, just like you havent cleared neoexdeath doesn't mean I coudlnt also clear v3s. I just really dont like doing group content that much where i have to depend on other people , and dont like answering to people hence why I left a static I joined after a week Im very much a solo player I dont play the game to make friends (maybe one day that will change). But my experience doesnt matter just like yours does not either, nor anyone in this thread when the data alone speaks for itself on what is or isnt easy, that is a fact Im sorry you wont to disagree with data but it holds more weight than anyone on this forum could ever period.

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All I see here is you saying that you don’t want to cooperate with other individuals. And, if you don’t like doing group content where you don’t like to depend on other people, then why are you playing an MMO? You’re trying to talk about the difficulty or the ease of content that you haven’t even done—you haven’t even stepped foot into Neo. Did you do A12S when it was relevant? How about A11S? If the answer is no, then you cannot speak on the difficulty of the content because you lack the experience to do so.

If you want some data, let’s look at Lucky Bancho’s census data on V4S clears—which he has listed that about 4,000~5,000 more players have cleared V4S as compared to A12S. Of course, this data is also going to be off because Lucky looks at players that own the Savage mount, which is going to be lower than the actual number of clears since 1 mount drops to be rolled on between ~8 players. Same for FFLogs—some people don’t upload ugly parses; others don’t upload at all; some are even unlisted or private, and won’t show up in public rankings. You’re speaking in terms of absolutes, and you cannot do that. Your data doesn’t allow that.

Again, it’s not your choice what content is placed in the game and what content isn’t. At the most, Ultimate cost Patch 4.1 the inclusion of Perform earlier than 4.15. Ultimate did NOT cost 4.1 the release of Eureka; it didn’t cost the development of any “worthwhile content,” since the developers said themselves that the inclusion of Ultimate was NOT the reason for 4.1 including just one dungeon.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

?

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Ashamed? I know this might be hard to believe but maybe they don't care as long as its cleared?

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Your data is wrong here: paladin is not the most played job in Savage—that title belongs to BRD by a landslide, and PLD doesn’t come anywhere close. Your data from FFLogs also proves it as such.

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I said one of not the most popular , so form the start you didnt even read what I said. And what I am sayin is simply that everything you just said is a good thing that more people are clearing. Why is that not a good thing, easier or whatever you want to call it , it doesnt matter its good for the game when more people are clearing the content. Im sorry you dont see that as a good thing, but it is hence the reason things are the way they are, and no its not my choice whats in the game and neither is it yours either and thank goodness.

Because the way youd want it is forever everything to be like ultimate and hardly anyone even clear any of the content in the game, obviously thats not good for business. You havent done ultimate so does that mean you cant take part in a discussion about it? Didnt think so content like we have now where more people have access and can clear it is the best for the game anyone who thinks otherwise can go do something else or leave or unsub and let everyone else enjoy clearing content. The fewer elitist we have the better if you ask me, get em out of here as far as Im concerned.

Let SE make content thats playable and clear able like they are doing now and hope they continue to do. Its funny to that you consider more people clearing content a bad thing , like ohhh way more people cleared neo exdeath ohh raids are so bad now. Like thats just a stupid thing to even consider being a bad thing, why do you think they added jump pots inclusion, why do you think they tuned the raids inclusion. They do these things to build a business not to appease some try hards that want everything to be tuned the way they see fit please let all of these people unsub so the rest of the players can enjoy the game because they are truely the cancer of this game. Because again for thousands of people neoexdeath isnt easy enough for them to get by which says the community as a whole is about on the level of a v3s, shinyru, v2s level and those who want something more had neo and will get more in the future. There was no reason to implement something else that is even beyond that , Im sorry but not sorry for those whom think things are to easy well just go play something else is all I can say. Just be thankful we even have raids honeslty many games dont even have them and still do fine , this game could vary well go the route of not doing raids at all. And it still wouldnt effect the subs, because many players dont give two craps about raiding, because look at how small the amount of people who raid is. So I am all for what they are doing now anything else is just tryin to suck up to a small portion of the playerbase that really is so small their opinions shoudlnt even matter.