Please scale the difficulty of Royal Menagerie

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Originally Posted by aesteval

there's also no reason to lock the basic endgame gearing grind behind a superboss.

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If you don't have the player skill needed to actually get into and complete endgame content then why bother even gearing for it?

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

If you don't have the player skill needed to actually get into and complete endgame content then why bother even gearing for it?

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If you don't complete MSQ you can't access future features locked behind the MSQ. Beating the MSQ is not supposed to be a skill/gear check for endgame. Because trials and raids shouldn't be the only endgame.

Let's say there was no bought passes via expansion or jump potions.

If you don't beat MSQ ARR, you can't even access HW. Don't beat HW, you can't even access SB, and so on and so on

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

If you don't have the player skill needed to actually get into and complete endgame content then why bother even gearing for it?

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Because you're going to need it for future MSQ. They do put in dungeons and trials that have ilevel requirements, and it's usually balanced around either the current or just previous tome gear.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Because you're going to need it for future MSQ. They do put in dungeons and trials that have ilevel requirements, and it's usually balanced around either the current or just previous tome gear.

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The last MSQ dungeon of heavensward was min ilvl 230. The restrictions are not that severe. There is always of the option of obtaining the skill required to clear the fight as well. New crafted gear will be added to the game each patch so again, that's another option.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

If you don't complete MSQ you can't access future features locked behind the MSQ. Beating the MSQ is not supposed to be a skill/gear check for endgame. Because trials and raids shouldn't be the only endgame.

Let's say there was no bought passes via expansion or jump potions.

If you don't beat MSQ ARR, you can't even access HW. Don't beat HW, you can't even access SB, and so on and so on

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Point i'm making is they complain that its not right to gate tomestone gear behind MSQ because they need it for end game. You need to clear the current MSQ to get to end game. If you cannot handle the MSQ "test" to get to end game then what is the point of having the gear to begin with?

Also not all end game gear is gated behind the MSQ. You still have the option of buying gear from the market board.

The real issue is the players that appear to feel like the content needs to be made easier because they cant just stand in every AoE mashing 2 buttons and clear it.

I sometimes wonder if the people complaining about things being too hard are the same people that never played a console game without their game genie, game shark, or action replay since back then there was no game developer to cry nerf to. They'd just have to buy a 3rd party unsupported device to nerf the game for them.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Superboss? Shinryu pales in comparison to the likes of Sephirot, Thordan, Titan, Ifrit or just about every EX fight, who themselves don't even scratch Living Liquid or Brute Justice Savage-- the actual "superbosses" this game offers. He's slightly above average in a MSQ that requires little more than a pulse for half its content. Royal Menagerie only has "pay attention" checks. Calling it a superboss is absolutely ridiculous.

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Shinryu in his home game was a superboss, same with omega and Ozma actually.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

Shinryu in his home game was a superboss, same with omega and Ozma actually.

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So what? He isnt a superboss in this game - just the last storyboss that happens to be a bit more difficult than pressing two buttons.

We will eventually see a superboss (aka extreme mode) version of Shinryu - but until then (and even then): This storymode-version of Shinryu is as much a superboss in this game than Ozma is.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

Shinryu in his home game was a superboss, same with omega and Ozma actually.

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Ozma was easy enough if everyone followed the battle mechanic, like "Meteors Left and Back"... And then you see how someone runs to your place to stack a meteor that wiped 2 parties and guess what? Even if everyone tried to reason with said player, he/she just kept silent and doing the same all over again. It's the same with Shinryu and it's not even as dificult as Ozma.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Point i'm making is they complain that its not right to gate tomestone gear behind MSQ because they need it for end game. You need to clear the current MSQ to get to end game. If you cannot handle the MSQ "test" to get to end game then what is the point of having the gear to begin with?

Also not all end game gear is gated behind the MSQ. You still have the option of buying gear from the market board.

The real issue is the players that appear to feel like the content needs to be made easier because they cant just stand in every AoE mashing 2 buttons and clear it.

I sometimes wonder if the people complaining about things being too hard are the same people that never played a console game without their game genie, game shark, or action replay since back then there was no game developer to cry nerf to. They'd just have to buy a 3rd party unsupported device to nerf the game for them.

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You can get some tomestones without completing the entire MSQ just not the raid stuff. If I don't plan on raiding then that isn't a problem for me. I was speaking about future different content locked behind the MSQ.

Not me, but what if someone doesn't care for uber difficult content or bis gear and just want to craft in the next expansion? I remember when HW came out some pure crafter wondered why high level crafts were gated behind the MSQ.

It's fine Yoshi wants raiding or instanced content to be bigger and more played content than it is. I think that rather than force avenues of content, people tend to play a game longer if there is something they actually care about that they can jump right into. On that note, if raiding or primals is going to be the only difficult endgame content then stop gating other things behind the difficult MSQ or next expansions. Yes even though I beat Menagerie, some people didn't or got super stressed out completing it or this thread would not exist.

S#&t, if you can't see the entire main story due to lack of skill in an FF then what is the point of playing a Final Fantasy. I saw the same thing in XI Chains of Promathia. If you had No to little skill or ability to form statics, most people could not even get past the MSQ to reach Sea though I did.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

S#&t, if you can't see the entire main story due to lack of skill in an FF then what is the point of playing a Final Fantasy. I saw the same thing in XI Chains of Promathia. If you had No to little skill or ability to form statics, most people could not even get past the MSQ to reach Sea though I did.

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Oh no, i know what you are talking about, don not go that way.

Even if FFXIV it's a story driven MMO (and it's one of the reasons that i play) i dont remember one Final Fantasy game that even being about the story, did not had some kind of dificulty. And just because you talk about XI, lets just do this. Shadow Lord was an easy boss, remember him? Even being easy someone could just make a mistake that could cost the whole run. Remember Promyvion? And all those dungeons you had to crawl in sneaking and fighting your way just to win a MSQ cinematic? At those times, unless the devs fucked up the dificulty spike you had to learn to play, practice and then advance to win. Not only you, your whole team. If you did not win even if it was not your fault you had to start all over again from your Home point even at Exp Party.

And just to give another example, even a game as Pokemon you can screw up pretty bad if you dont follow the game rule/mechanics and you dont learn to play it. Hell, EVERY game is based on that.

Why should THIS game be any different?

To shorten: FFXIV is a Story driven MMO. As any other FF game, you had to learn to win and watch the story. This should be no diferent.

EDIT: Also, XI was moooooore hard than XIV. This game forgives too much if you campare it to XI.

Funny thing is most offline FF are easy because what you cannot beat you can overlevel/gear.

In XI pre abyssea this was not possible, you either got better or did not beat something ever.
Here you will eventually as long as the content does not stay ilvl capped.

Learn a game sure, become better sure, possibility to tackle more difficult content sure. But I don't remember one offline FF I did not complete the MSQ unless I got bored, that was FF1 for me.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

your kidding right the royal menagerie is harder than , gaurda ex for sure, and Id say its harder than lamsiki extreme to, as well as bismark the only thing in bis really is the dps check on the adds, and Id also say its harder than ifrit extreme to

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Do them with gear at the average item level of their time (ilevel 70-90 for Garuda Ex, as an example)

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

Funny thing is most offline FF are easy because what you cannot beat you can overlevel/gear.

In XI pre abyssea this was not possible, you either got better or did not beat something ever.
Here you will eventually as long as the content does not stay ilvl capped.

Learn a game sure, become better sure, possibility to tackle more difficult content sure. But I don't remember one offline FF I did not complete the MSQ unless I got bored, that was FF1 for me.

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The point i was making is:

FFXIV is a Story Driven MMO. As a game, to view the end of it you must win the final boss. That's all this is about. We are not talking about Ifrit Hard, we are talking about Shinryu who happens to be the last boss on the MSQ. You want to see the rest? Win the battle. You cant win? if it's your fault, then learn. If the problem is your companions try to reason with them and play as a team, that's how this game is played despite some trying to "play their way". It's dissapointing that because someone for reasons wants a nerf just because he cant just win like everyone else, and the rest of us have to bow to their sense of entitlement.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Do them with gear at the average item level of their time (ilevel 70-90 for Garuda Ex, as an example)

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Even using the Augmented Ironworks, or World of Darkness(Demon?), sets due to the fight taking longer will cause MANY people to wipe since a lot seem to have such short attention spans.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

Funny thing is most offline FF are easy because what you cannot beat you can overlevel/gear.

In XI pre abyssea this was not possible, you either got better or did not beat something ever.
Here you will eventually as long as the content does not stay ilvl capped.

Learn a game sure, become better sure, possibility to tackle more difficult content sure. But I don't remember one offline FF I did not complete the MSQ unless I got bored, that was FF1 for me.

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Started FFXi when it first launched vanilla in like Nov of 2002. I played it up till a bit after the moogle mini expansion came out. One of the things I kind if wish was still in FFXIV that we had in FFXI was exp loss on death and possible de-leveling because it feels like if this was still a thing there would be far more players actually thinking while playing the game.

The only other possible thing I can think of is that they make a min ilvl requirement higher in order to get players to actually do their lv 70 job quest before trying to do this MSQ.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

One of the things I kind if wish was still in FFXIV that we had in FFXI was exp loss on death and possible de-leveling because it feels like if this was still a thing there would be far more players actually thinking while playing the game.

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That would ruin raid progression, especially as you gain no exp after hitting 70 (so one death = instant de-level).

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Originally Posted by Nestama

That would ruin raid progression, especially as you gain no exp after hitting 70 (so one death = instant de-level).

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Yeah, I loved my time in XI, but I would be happy to never, ever see exp loss and losing levels from dying again in an MMO.

I'm mean honestly, shinryu is child's play. Not one mechanic is new or has not been seen already, and really if you made it this far in level AND story then this shouldn't even be an issue for anyone.
Every dungeon AND STORY Trial has honed and trained every player for story boss's such as this.

" Oh no, I have hit a mildly difficult spot. Better not learn and make myself better! I'll just cry for it to be easier "

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Originally Posted by Nestama

That would ruin raid progression, especially as you gain no exp after hitting 70 (so one death = instant de-level).

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FFXI handled this by allowing players to build a buffer that would stop at 1 xp away from the next lvl up. Additionally one of the other things FFXI did was allowed regaining some of the lost exp if you were raised by someone instead of just warping back to home point.

Of course you had people that refused to get a buffer like the leader of the North America based endgame LS I joined for a bit and we of course made him delevel every run in sky for lols >.>

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Originally Posted by Zhamkyong

FFXIV is a Story Driven MMO. As a game, to view the end of it you must win the final boss. That's all this is about. We are not talking about Ifrit Hard, we are talking about Shinryu who happens to be the last boss on the MSQ. You want to see the rest? Win the battle. You cant win? if it's your fault, then learn. If the problem is your companions try to reason with them and play as a team, that's how this game is played despite some trying to "play their way". It's dissapointing that because someone for reasons wants a nerf just because he cant just win like everyone else, and the rest of us have to bow to their sense of entitlement.

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While I see some of the comments about Menagerie being harder than most extreme primals is kind of not really true. This instance is harder than all the primal hard modes for sure. As I said earlier, most dungeons/primals before this were only 1-3 difficult mechanics, not including the click on this gimmicks in the environment.

As you see in pugs. Alot of fresh players have a hard enough time remembering or learning 1-3 mechanics in the short term. Some will forget even 1-3 if they haven't played the game in awhile. Some players don't even watch videos or read guides commonly. Is it your fault they are either lazy, refuse to watch guides, or just don't want to invest researching because it is a game? No, but it is what is.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Started FFXi when it first launched vanilla in like Nov of 2002. I played it up till a bit after the moogle mini expansion came out. One of the things I kind if wish was still in FFXIV that we had in FFXI was exp loss on death and possible de-leveling because it feels like if this was still a thing there would be far more players actually thinking while playing the game.

The only other possible thing I can think of is that they make a min ilvl requirement higher in order to get players to actually do their lv 70 job quest before trying to do this MSQ.

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I still am baffled by how often players quit instances when things go south. All you lose is time and get a ding on your armor even if you lose.

If death came with xp loss or de-leveling in this game, the number of abandons and animosity would burn the heavens. Now the requirement of the level 70 quest would go along way towards making the content more reasonable. So at least then the players would have a more viable chance at reaching their current ceiling.

But even then, there will still be some that this fight could be considered to hard for them being in the MSQ.

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Originally Posted by Croweyes

I'm mean honestly, shinryu is child's play. Not one mechanic is new or has not been seen already, and really if you made it this far in level AND story then this shouldn't even be an issue for anyone.
Every dungeon AND STORY Trial has honed and trained every player for story boss's such as this.

" Oh no, I have hit a mildly difficult spot. Better not learn and make myself better! I'll just cry for it to be easier "

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Especially when he does nothing that you haven't seen previously in the MSQ. The only exception I can think of is Akh Morn, and that's because it behaves like it did during Bahamut Prime.

Its the "last" boss of the 4.0 part of the story, you are supposed to struggle with it a little. Now you at least have over geared ppl that can burn it even with losses. At release you were usually tackling it at 290 ilvl, if not lower since you would get ppl jumping into it before their lvl 70 quests for their jobs. I won't go the "its easy scrub" route, but lets be honest it is nowhere near an ex primals difficulty...what it does share with an EX primal is that once you learn it it is very much doable, it just happens to take considerably less to learn it all than an EX primal.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

One of the things I kind if wish was still in FFXIV that we had in FFXI was exp loss on death and possible de-leveling because it feels like if this was still a thing there would be far more players actually thinking while playing the game.

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God, no. Not being able to go to bed because you had to get your buffer into the next level or risk losing your hard-fought progress was a nightmare. That was a horrible idea when EverQuest introduced it and I'm glad to see it didn't stick around long in the MMOs that followed. Even EQII got rid of it and just made it an experience debt, but you kept your level and just wouldn't progress further until you got the exp back to fill that debt. Then MMOs stopped punishing you entirely for someone being a jerk and training the medding area.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

God, no. Not being able to go to bed because you had to get your buffer into the next level or risk losing your hard-fought progress was a nightmare. That was a horrible idea when EverQuest introduced it and I'm glad to see it didn't stick around long in the MMOs that followed. Even EQII got rid of it and just made it an experience debt, but you kept your level and just wouldn't progress further until you got the exp back to fill that debt. Then MMOs stopped punishing you entirely for someone being a jerk and training the medding area.

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The lack of consequences on death I feel has lead to the rise of players that feel its fine for them to not learn how to do anything and just die repeatedly while everyone else clears the content for them. And when you get 5+ players with this mindset together in a duty like RM and fail to get carried things like this topic happen.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

The lack of consequences on death I feel has lead to the rise of players that feel its fine for them to not learn how to do anything and just die repeatedly while everyone else clears the content for them. And when you get 5+ players with this mindset together in a duty like RM and fail to get carried things like this topic happen.

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Exp loss won't do a thing to solve that. Then you can just get trolled by people you will never seen again who make you lose a level by causing you to die when you're unlucky enough to get into an instance with them. That formula only worked because you were confined to grouping with those on your server and your reputation controlled whether you could get into a camp party or not.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

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Ignoring the nightmare of what happens to your equipped level 70 gear, this would make progression for any content extremely frustrating and artificially drawn-out. There's nothing fun about having to forcefully stop progression on a boss because people de-leveled due to a wipe. And since people got de-leveled, the party is forced to disband while the party is forced to re-level back to 70, only to have to do it again eventually. Does that sound fun at all? Is it fun to have to level up all over again because of the faults of others?

What if I de-level in Expert Roulette due to a bad group? Am I forced to leave, getting the 30m penalty to earn back my level, or stay in the group and become dead weight?

There's nothing fun about having to redo a grind because other people caused a wipe. Nothing good comes out of de-leveling. De-leveling does NOTHING to make the players better; all it does is severely punish mistakes.


EDIT #1:

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

far more players actually thinking while playing the game.

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I know what people would be thinking; they'd think "de-leveling is a horrible system. There's nothing fun about spamming Castrum Abania because my static de-levels every couple of wipes when we do progression on (insert fight here)."

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

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Yet as it stands now people are getting carried into endgame content and expect to be carried through that content as well which frequently wastes time of players that actually took the effort to learn their job class and the mechanics of the game and content. They are entirely content with dying repeatedly because there is no real personal penalty to it aside from an extremely paltry gil cost in repairs. Its essentially a no risk for rewards system to them. They just keep joining groups until they get lucky and find one that can carry them.

At the same time you try to make it like deleveling means you have to play the game grinding exp for a week just to get back into content. In reality it would take less than an hour if the instance automatically cancelled or failed due to players no longer meeting the job level requirement. Deleveling wasn't even a big deal in FFXI unless you were a douche to everyone on your server so that no one would party with you and I'd pulled my fair share of shenanigans in FFXI ranging from pulling valkurm emperor into my exp party, running serket over people in garliage citadel, and pulling every craweler in crawlers nest into the front entrance of the zone. Deleveling or losing exp wasn't a big deal and I wasn't bothered when it happened. The rate of EXP gain in FFXI was far slower than FFXIV and again if they allowed a buffer like they did in FFXI it shouldn't be an issue for end game statics since most people doing savage also farm expert roulette for tomes and therefore should have a buffer if it were enabled.

Then come up with an idea that doesn't punish players who wipe because of someone else, or are doing raid progression where wipes are frequent.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Then come up with an idea that doesn't punish players who wipe because of someone else, or are doing raid progression where wipes are frequent.

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The fight is so forgiving anwyays. I like the fight and it makes butthole scratchers during their play pay more attention :)

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

The fight is so forgiving anwyays. I like the fight and it makes butthole scratchers during their play pay more attention :)

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What about fights that are actually hard, like Omega Savage or the "Beyond Savage" fight coming in 4.1? Should raiders be punished for learning a fight?

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Then come up with an idea that doesn't punish players who wipe because of someone else, or are doing raid progression where wipes are frequent.

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I've already given a suggestion which essentially I feel would make overall upper level content more manageable for players that actually learn how to utilize mechanics and play their job class effectively. The reason being that someone dying repeatedly because of their lack of desire to actually play the game wouldn't be able to progress to this point.

If you don't like the suggested change that's fine but how about you come up with a solution then that you like? Because as it is now the systems in place already punish players for the actions of others in duties due to varying degrees of time wasted depending on duty, role, time expended in PF if it was used, and whether you had to abandon and eat a 30 minute penalty because people wouldn't pass the vote to abandon the duty.

You go into raid progression with the expectation already set that there is a high probability of wiping repeatedly. With an exp loss system you would just account for that in preparation or again be like that LS leader in FFXI we made delevel because he refused to get a buffer. And I'm quite serious. EVERY run in sky.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

The fight is so forgiving anwyays. I like the fight and it makes butthole scratchers during their play pay more attention :)

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I love the fight as well and will /happy any time I get it in Trial Roulette (like today). It keeps me awake.

I will stop Raising DPS who die more than three times, though...

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

What about fights that are actually hard, like Omega Savage or the "Beyond Savage" fight coming in 4.1? Should raiders be punished for learning a fight?

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I think you might be replying to the wrong person.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

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The system we have is called Vote Kick. If someone is frequently dying and causes a wipe, then we remove them from the group (difference in playstyle is a legitimate reason. Even if someone is new, if they are outright refusing to learn mechanics they have died to frequently, it is perfectly fine to kick them. You do not have to carry newbies who choose not to learn). One limitation that should be applied to TRM is having the level 70 Job Quest cleared.

I found it hard as f u c k lol. took two goes to clear it and i died both times. I find these type of battles very difficult. I feel like there is a lot you have to remember in this fight and I have a short term memory i forget fight mechanics very easily. But that doesn't mean I won't keep trying till i am able to do it/clear it first time with out dying. That boss/primal fight is the first one that i can truly say that i enjoyed in a very long time it was refreshing.

Once you finally clear it with out dying you get a great feel of achievement.

RM should in no way be nerfed (beyond the natural out-gearing); it's a good fight, with a fitting difficultly for an 'end boss'.

The mistake though, was in not preparing inexperienced players for a fight with so many mechanics; not that there are too many mechanics, just more, some less obvious, and some more deadly, than previous fights.

An argument could also be made that certain features (tomestones, 70 dungeons, etc.) should not have been locked behind this fight, allowing players to gear up and get a bit more practice at 70 (and / or the game in general) before being forced to defeat this encounter.

I am starting to think it would just be better if people watched the story through Youtube instead of playing.

I mean if people wish to trivialize all of the story content so that a 2 year old could clear it, then why not just watch it on Youtube instead? Because you're not playing a game at this point.. You're just watching cutscenes.

Isn't echo enough for the scrubs that don't want to spend the 30 minutes it takes to learn the fight? It doesn't even have any unique mechanics or any difficult dps check. The hardest part, and the part I see most people fail at is tapping the 15 or so buttons to break free during the phase change after adds

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Originally Posted by Altena

I am starting to think it would just be better if people watched the story through Youtube instead of playing.

I mean if people wish to trivialize all of the story content so that a 2 year old could clear it, then why not just watch it on Youtube instead? Because you're not playing a game at this point.. You're just watching cutscenes.

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While I know you are being sarcastic. No 2 year old is going to beat any FF. Sure people could just watch the whole game on youtube. But unless SE starts running adds on the tube it won't bring content any faster to players when the money starts to dry out.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

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Vote Kick itself is abused and full of it's own exploitable flaws resulting in other issues with the game. If difference in playstyle is a legitimate reason for kicking someone from a duty, then why have people been nailed by GM's in the past for kicking someone for the exact reason of dying multiple times in a duty? Difference in playstyle covers such a broad scope that if its considered a legitimate reason then we basically need no reason to kick someone from a duty.

Most cases outside of Savage raids its multiple people dying repeatedly causing a wipe and if its the bad players that are the majority in the party the votes often will not pass as seen in 24man raids.

I may be wrong but I do not think the fight is hard at all, yes it has an increased amount of mechanics to learn but most of the important ones can be picked up in a few tries.

The difficulty comes from the players themselves. Players who know the fight can lack the patience to allow others to fail and learn. This results in them leaving, vote abandon or worse.
The main problem is how much is to much. You should be allowed a few tries to get to grips with content but this has its limits. In these cases if its one person holding back everyone then yes they should be asked to leave for the sake of the other 7 people.
If its more than that then you take yourself out use the penalty to have a break and try again later.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

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Hence why I mentioned 'outright refusing to learn the mechanic they've died to frequently.' The moment you notice that someone is clearly aiming for a carry (again, choosing not to learn a mechanic they always die to), you kick them and yes, this is after you try to explain the mechanic to them. You tried, they didn't want to learn, why should you carry them?