Tanks that think they are DPS, just stop...

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Having more HP reduce the amount of mitigation needed to survive a Tank Buster.
Maybe you don't see the value in that, but it doesn't mean that it does nothing.

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I don't like tanking, I suck at tanking. But what I can say from my experience is that this is false.
Extra HP is irrelevant to the extent that every tier we get ripped the same amount of HP percentage per buster. The only variation being the order in which you use your mitigation.
And chances are you are using a CD, outside of tank stance and getting shielded by a sch or an ast. If you are doing it right that is. Any more hp than necessary is a waste of stats.
Having more hp doesn't equal mitigation because you should be mitigating as a team anyways. And no, you shouldn't be dropping as hard as I think you are implying.

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Originally Posted by Erys

Having more hp doesn't equal mitigation because you should be mitigating as a team anyways. And no, you shouldn't be dropping as hard as I think you are implying.

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The Blackest Night and Divine Benison say hello.

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Originally Posted by Erys

I don't like tanking, I suck at tanking. But what I can say from my experience is that this is false.
Extra HP is irrelevant to the extent that every tier we get ripped the same amount of HP percentage per buster. The only variation being the order in which you use your mitigation.
And chances are you are using a CD, outside of tank stance and getting shielded by a sch or an ast. If you are doing it right that is. Any more hp than necessary is a waste of stats.
Having more hp doesn't equal mitigation because you should be mitigating as a team anyways. And no, you shouldn't be dropping as hard as I think you are implying.

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If a Tank buster hits for 50-55k and you have 36K HP, you'll need more mitigation to survive than if you had 47k HP. If I'm wrong on that statement, please tell me exactly why. I may not be good at math, but I think this is pretty straight forward and simple enough.

For example, in the situation I described, the 47k HP Tank can survive a 50-55k hit by simply staying in its tank stance or by simply poping Rampart. The 36K HP tank cannot. It needs either an additional defensive cooldown of its own, or from the team, or a Healer shield (Divine Benison, Adlo, N.A.Benefic... you name it).

This is also the reason why Defiance and Thrill Of Battle do what they're supposed to do.

Mitigation or not, it doesn't matter. All that matter is your eHP. And the less ressources you have to invest in that during battle, the better it is, because it means that you get more leeway, more room for error. (And easier cooldown management.)
Not every group can afford having a high risk/high reward type of gameplay.

So yes, saying that we have 5 useless equipment slots that does nothing if we put VIT accessories in them is silly and completly false.
It definitly does something, and something important. Some groups won't value that as much as others, but spreading the idea that "hurr durr, VIT is useless!" is the reason why we have noob tanks "following the meta", only to die like a DRG jumping in AoEs.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

If a Tank buster hits for 50-55k and you have 36K HP, you'll need more mitigation to survive than if you had 47k HP. If I'm wrong on that statement, please tell me exactly why. I may not be good at math, but I think this is pretty straight forward and simple enough.

For example, in the situation I described, the 47k HP Tank can survive a 50-55k hit by simply staying in its tank stance or by simply poping Rampart. The 36K HP tank cannot. It needs either an additional defensive cooldown of its own, or from the team, or a Healer shield (Divine Benison, Adlo, N.A.Benefic... you name it).

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Or the tank with 36k hp can use holmgang/hallowed ground/living dead to bypass the tank buster while rotating through the other CDs to keep damage intake down and then tank swapping as necessary in order to keep both the tanks' and healers' dps up. You know, like the tanks who actually know what they're doing do.

Rule 1 of tank slaying: have enough hp to survive.

Rule 2 of tank slaying: don't equip anymore.

The situation you described sounds like it omits rule 1. Can current content be done with full slaying? Sure. Does that mean every group can/will? No. Not every strategy works for everyone, and not every strategy allows for full slaying. Our first mission parameter is to live, everything after is gravy. It's about adapting to the situation at hand.

And if the tank gets hit with a few unlucky crits in a row? What then? Boiling it down to "lol git gud" is a stupid dismissal to act like a glorified DPS. Your first priority should be, as a tank, to hold aggro and mitigate damage, which is what the accessories do by giving you more eHP. The idea that we have to forego the accessories for our item level to get accessories from the last expansion because "hurrdurr its more dps" is not what I signed up for as a paladin.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

And if the tank gets hit with a few unlucky crits in a row? What then? Boiling it down to "lol git gud" is a stupid dismissal to act like a glorified DPS. Your first priority should be, as a tank, to hold aggro and mitigate damage, which is what the accessories do by giving you more eHP. The idea that we have to forego the accessories for our item level to get accessories from the last expansion because "hurrdurr its more dps" is not what I signed up for as a paladin.

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If this is an issue then you don't have enough HP for the strategy you are using. See rule 1. However, I strongly expect 270 slaying to be patched out in 10 days and so this issue will likely be settled or pointless by then.

Honestly I don't like having to make this type of adjustment, more damage or vit, but as long as it exists it is a massive gain for the group. I hope SE just makes the sensible decision and puts some strength on fending or fixes the damage calculation or fixes tenacity to scale better.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

If this is an issue then you don't have enough HP for the strategy you are using. See rule 1.

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That's what I'm saying. Vit should be taking priority, and if you can skim off the top without sacrificing your tankiness to make room for some DPS accessories, then consider it for a few lower damage fights to make sure you can make it through.

When you think about yourself, and only yourself, you are going to be like "uhh ! vit is gud ! i can survive 2 tank buster in a row !! " wow congrats but, is there any point on that? like after a tank buster healers will ... you know, heal you ?, and as i said 123123 times, My Bene restores the same amount of HP to a tank with 30k and one with 50k, my shield will mitigate the same amount too, WHM Divine Ben is a different thing, but being tied to lilies, is that even a thing?, The darkest night can actually be the only skill that makes over Vit Any usefull, Enough vit is enough, more than enough is a waste.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

That's what I'm saying. Vit should be taking priority, and if you can skim off the top without sacrificing your tankiness to make room for some DPS accessories, then consider it for a few lower damage fights to make sure you can make it through.

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Agreed, as long as you are healable and not dieing every time the wind blows your fine.

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Originally Posted by Nowakii

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But that goes both ways. No matter what, the healers are going to have to heal you up the same amount regardless. Having extra vit is more margin for error, ensures that you can handle more and more on your own without having the healers panic heal you from a tank buster. If the onus is on the tanks having a DPS trinket or two in order to down a boss, there are more problems with your static than a slightly lower damage tank.

We don't HAVE to be cutting edge 100% of the time. Sometimes it's better to prioritize personal safety if it means staying alive longer to keep the DPS alive longer.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

And if the tank gets hit with a few unlucky crits in a row? What then? Boiling it down to "lol git gud" is a stupid dismissal to act like a glorified DPS. Your first priority should be, as a tank, to hold aggro and mitigate damage, which is what the accessories do by giving you more eHP. The idea that we have to forego the accessories for our item level to get accessories from the last expansion because "hurrdurr its more dps" is not what I signed up for as a paladin.

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This is a valid concern. You should, as a tank, always strive to develop an understanding of how much damage each attack does, and what the timings are. You should know the average crit values for autos. You should know the timing of cleaves. This information gives you an idea of what is safe, and what isn't. If there's a risk of autos syncing up with tankbusters, then you need to be able to have enough eHP to at least survive both a crit auto and the tankbuster by a reasonable factor of safety. If you don't have this information, you're forced to play it safe until you've gathered the knowledge that you need. The most aggressive tanks in farm are often the most defensively minded in prog.

Tanking is an active process, not a passive one. As you learn more and more about the fight, you become more efficient. You learn the HP thresholds. You learn which parts have less tank damage and more raid damage, allowing you to drop stance more. You learn places where you can shield your teammates to reduce the healing load, allowing your healers more windows to dps (your healers are learning how to heal more efficiently to push their dps while this is happening, too). You learn where to use your active cooldowns in a way that makes you far, far more defensive than any "defensively-minded" tank, without compromising your damage contribution to the team either. You learn to quickly identify when your team is in trouble, and what defensive countermeasures you can take to stop things from spiralling out of control. You learn when to be greedy, and when to be safe. Tanking is about knowledge, awareness, and good judgement. A sizeable number of the tanks who are playing with their offensive and defensive balance aren't simply being reckless or blindly following trends. They're making measured decisions based a thorough understanding of the defensive requirements of a fight.

I think the point isn't really to show off certain tanks as being "higher skill", but rather to show an ideal towards every tank should strive towards.

Oh, I'm not saying we shouldn't play efficiently. Maximizing our DPS should definitely be a consideration as you gear, and if a tank can get away with using Slaying accessories, more power to them. I just resent the idea that I'm seeing, more and more, that using Vit accessories makes one a bad tank, when it really doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Nowakii

When you think about yourself, and only yourself, you are going to be like

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Nah, if I was only thinking about myself I'd go full slaying and yell "HEALERS ADJUST" into my microphone instead of being a team player and ensuring the content is cleared. Full STR is only for tanks that care less about surviving and more about their parses because "MUH DEEPS".

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

Oh, I'm not saying we shouldn't play efficiently. Maximizing our DPS should definitely be a consideration as you gear, and if a tank can get away with using Slaying accessories, more power to them. I just resent the idea that I'm seeing, more and more, that using Vit accessories makes one a bad tank, when it really doesn't.

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Im not complaining about anyone using Anything, im just saying using STR doesnt make a tank bad as the OP (and many other people) is stating, also i like to state that VIT is such a meaningless stat once you have enough, so the solution is not "use i270 for ever" but "SE please AT LEAST add str to Tanks accesories."

This is like "healer should/shouldnt dps" all over again, saying that "the more Vit the better cuz healers will be less stressed" (wich is not entirely true since 90% of the time im going to precast my heals/have an isnta heal ready on a tank buster), witht that same logic healers should not dps, because the most MP they have to spare the better, right? i mean its safer to sit at 20kMp than sitting on 8k because i can crazy heal if i feel like.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Nah, if I was only thinking about myself I'd go full slaying and yell "HEALERS ADJUST" into my microphone instead of being a team player and ensuring the content is cleared. Full STR is only for tanks that care less about surviving and more about their parses because "MUH DEEPS".

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As long as they survive enough for me to cast my heals, i dont mind finishing a dungeon faster.

Once again, im not saying having VIT at all is bad, im saying over doing it is pointless (not bad)....
Having Enough VIT with more Dmg = Killing things faster AND surviving everything (including tank busters) while using mitigation skills.
Overdoing VIT= Surviving everything (including tank busters) while using mitigation skills.

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Originally Posted by Nowakii

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Who's talking about dungeons? I'm talking about going into Savage/Extremes with 33k or less HP because the meta says to shed all Vit, go pure STR, and yell "HEALERS ADJUST".

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Who's talking about dungeons? I'm talking about going into Savage/Extremes with 33k or less HP because the meta says to shed all Vit, go pure STR, and yell "HEALERS ADJUST".

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I don't want to be that guy but there's this website where people upload parses. If you go there and look at speed runs you can see that, not only can tanks tank the current ex primals in all slaying accessories, but their healers also do more than 3k dps combined.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Who's talking about dungeons? I'm talking about going into Savage/Extremes with 33k or less HP because the meta says to shed all Vit, go pure STR, and yell "HEALERS ADJUST".

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I mean I'm going to heal a tank when their hp is dropping or they take a buster. All that matters is they survive the hit. Whether a tank has 30k or 50k or 100k hp there is no adjustment I heal incoming damage. Vita doesn't giv mitigation so it doesn't really matter. Rarely do you ever see tank advice in any mmo saying just max out hp cause you can.

DPS classes expriencing 30mins queue's comes to forums to vent and find out why his queue's are so long. DPS finds out tanks are quiting due to massive damage nerf, said dps say your job is to tank and nothing more. Tank community explains that isn't it only, NO YOU SHOULDN'T wear slaying gear dps says. His queue becomes 35mins, you dps coming to the tank forums to piss of even more tanks only hurt your role, which is the easiet role in the game to play (which is why most people play it). Most mechanics in game are done by tanks.

Looks just look at HW for not most the people here did not play ARR.
Sephirot EX Tanks had to do the mechanics.
Sophia EX Tanks again had to do most the mechanics.
Zuvuran equal share of responsibility.

Gordias what did dps have to worry about that no other class had to?
Midas Had more tank mech then dps.
Alexanderian yep that was a tank raid nuff said.

Void Ark
Weeping City
Dunscaith
All about equal on the mech front for all roles.

Minstrels Ballads
Ultima Tank mech the game
Thoradin Tank Mech the game
Nidhogg eveyone shared mechs about the same



What tank classes are responsible for, avoid tank busters and AOE dps just need to avoid aoe, responsible for the raid living and dying you miss that buster on alexander 4-5 people are dying you miss that aoe on alexander you just cost the healers mana who responsible for far more then what dps is responsible for, i would like to go on but in the wish to not make a wall of text ill stop there if you want more context i would be happy to oblige. Yes i played roles to the end game of HW and finished it and i had to worry about way less on my dps then anything else.

Final point to my dps posters i ask you this, this may not apply to you but its a general thing i have noticed.

When was the last time your saw these things.
Shadewalkers from ninja's
Smoke bombs from ninja's
Mantras from monks
Apoth of black mages
Virus's from SMN's before busters or heavy aoes
Mana song from a bard with the healer having to beg
The mana thingy from Machinist

Now you can say oh well tanks aren't stance dancing so its apparent in all classes but if your argument is that A tanks job is to tank and you don't help that said tank or healers with your various utility tools while your in defense if your role overwhelmingly under-performing in there role in general make you guys sound like morons in general.

I think depsite of you being a healer, a tank or a dps, the any class should be having fun while playing that class.... i play healer because i like multi-tasking, dpsing while keeping people alive, i also play DPS when i dont want to babysit people, because i like to maximise my dmg.... Tanks play tanks because they like to be in the front line and mitigate damage but also DPSing, if the tanks themselves are nto having fun because of their dmg being too low, do you think the right solution is just go and yell at them "GET OVER IT AND KEEP TANKING SO I CAN KEEP DOING MY DPS STUFF! " well, longer Ques for you then.

So I'm seeing a lot of people talking about Vit begrudgingly, but wouldn't the existence of Tenacity increase the value of Vit, if even a little? It's not as if Vit was useless before, it just had a ceiling of use, but if Tenacity continues to increase on gear, that bigger HP will go a longer way, increasing eHP as well as regular HP.

The solution seems simple (And honestly what I thought was already done), just increase the AP weight on Tenacity. Perhaps near equal to Str.

It's not that people dislike Vitality. From 3.2 until SB, tanks really liked it. The system worked precisely because gear improved both your HP and the effectiveness of your actions.

The problem that tanks have with Vitality under the present system is that the effectiveness of your actions does not scale with better right side gear. Vitality is very important, up until a point, but tanks shouldn't have to trade it off stats that have a bigger impact on performance in order to have more Vitality.

It's the same issue with Parry pre-SB. The act of parrying something is good. Tanks like it when it happens. But Parry showed up on tank gear at the cost of other stats which had a bigger impact on tank performance, like Crit, Det, and Skill Speed. You never saw the same complaints about Block, because Block was a shield property that did not come at the cost of other stats. As a result, stats like Parry, and in some cases, Accuracy, ended up being "dead stats" on gear that didn't contribute to your performance. The end result was that some gear pieces 10-20 ilvls lower were more powerful than their higher ilvl counterparts with more Parry and Accuracy, purely due to secondary stat weights.

The Vitality change revisits all of this, but worse. Your right side Vitality has no stat weight to it. In fact, in spite of being a secondary stat (and a poorly scaling one at that), Tenacity is more useful than Vitality, because it influences both damage and passive damage reduction, the latter of which has a much bigger impact on survival than raw HP. The problem with Tenacity is that it doesn't scale well, probably because you don't want players having large mitigation differences based on how they pick out and meld their gear.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

because you don't want players having large mitigation differences based on how they pick out and meld their gear.

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Why not? A tank that melds a tank stat should logically be much more tanky than someone that chooses to use STR, at the expense of taking, for example, 25-30% more damage on average that CD's alone shouldn't be able to accommodate.

Why do people complain even though most of the people forget, ignore, or just blame others about mechanics? Yes with the stat changes it's taking people time to adjust to the new setting, yes people think because they are 70, have some better gear they can ignore certain things and expect everyone to be on their same level. Specially when older content is ran and don't anticipate tank being under gear or may be new. From what I have experienced it falls on everyone. Tanks need healers and DPS, DPS need healers and Tanks, Healers need tanks and DPS. Overall Tanks try their best unless they are new ( which they should communicate ) or trolls who expect players to be in par with them. While the stat changes take time to adjust, You could try cutting some slack to some tanks. In raids tanks compete for enmity ( specially random groups) , which is kind of dumb if people don't communicate, and healers are to blame as well for not taking their main job seriously. ( Thank you for helping to DPS but please keep tanks / DPS alive ). Unless people do all 3 roles at some point, people will always have something to complain about. SO yes stats help, yes it's great people know mechanics, and NO tanks only think they are DPS if they are off tanks and no mobs are present, or just plain trolls who refuse to play their role properly.

This isn't a black and white situation. Every party is different. Every encounter is different.

One thing I learned back when I was tanking in WoW is that there is a time to turtle and a time to contribute to the damage. So the rule of thumb was to build up enough health and mitigation to where you felt comfortable then added equipment to increase your damage.

After that, you worked with your party to ensure your survival and enmity. Your party was mindful of their hate and you were aware of when you could throw in a few damage hits. In short, it was a team effort.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

This isn't a black and white situation. Every party is different. Every encounter is different.

One thing I learned back when I was tanking in WoW is that there is a time to turtle and a time to contribute to the damage.

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Your right, however the problem is people refuse to work as a team, ( for the most cases even when mobs are marked, didn't know counting was a huge problem. ) or they don't know how to switch target if enmity is being reached on current target. Not to insult anyone common sense but if you see a tank struggling, maybe try attacking one target all together and not split it, not everyone can tank. Also for any tanks out there ID your struggling USE MARKERS AND ASK FOR CO-OPERATION it's not brain surgery and no one is a mind reader. ASK for help if your having a hard time. Prep before hand Max potion or ether come in handy sometimes and are pretty easy to get.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Your right, however the problem is people refuse to work as a team, ( for the most cases even when mobs are marked, didn't know counting was a huge problem. ) or they don't know how to switch target if enmity is being reached on current target. Not to insult anyone common sense but if you see a tank struggling, maybe try attacking one target all together and not split it. NOT everyone can tank. Also for any tanks out there USE MARKERS AND ASK FOR CO-OPERATION it's not brain surgery and no one is a mind reader.

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Most DPS that never touched a tank a day in their life, wouldnt know what the enmity bars are. They probably think its a dps meter, tbh. Most healers that dont touch tanks probably didnt know throwing medica 2 on the party right as the tank was nearing the group of mobs was why they all started chasing that healer as well. Until they were told.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

Most DPS that never touched a tank a day in their life, wouldnt know what the enmity bars are. They probably think its a dps meter, tbh. Most healers that dont touch tanks probably didnt know throwing medica 2 on the party right as the tank was nearing the group of mobs was why they all started chasing that healer as well.

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Sounds about right, hence it's Tank's job to minimum communicate or teach them on why it's making things complicated., that or adjust to the situation if they have enough experience to do so. ( not many ). Personally if anyone is tanking and some one ask for help I will gladly help them or give them tips if they ask for it. IF they don't complain I call it out and give them a tip (normally if we keep wiping ). Now if people are really being unreasonable I vote kick after several warnings ( if I'm tanking ) or refuse to tank until person is replaced. Last resort vote kick me rather than me taking a penalty.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Sounds about right, hence it's Tank's job to minimum communicate or teach them on why it's making things complicated., that or adjust to the situation if they have enough experience to do so. ( not many ). Personally if anyone is tanking and some one ask for help I will gladly help them or give them tips if they ask for it. IF they don't complain I call it out and give them a tip (normally if we keep wiping ). Now if people are really being unreasonable I vote kick after several warnings ( if I'm tanking ) or refuse to tank until person is replaced. Last resort vote kick me rather than me taking a penalty.

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Sounds about right. Those examples sort of applied to me when i first was learning the game, as tank, but then when i levelled healer next then dps next i had a broader understanding of all of these things to be mindful about, like if i take hate from the tank i always walk up to them, for instance.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

Most healers that dont touch tanks probably didnt know throwing medica 2 on the party right as the tank was nearing the group of mobs was why they all started chasing that healer as well. Until they were told.

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Or that Medica 2 spam on a large group of party members can also tear aggro off a Tank pretty easily.

I think I'm still traumatized on some level by the number of healers who did this on Titan Hard and Extreme. Even more so by the number who were told WHY the Tank lost aggro, then proceeded to blame the Tank for it regardless.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

The Blackest Night and Divine Benison say hello.

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Intervention, Reprisal, Apoctastasis and Palisade would like to get in on this too.

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Originally Posted by Kinkoz

Or that Medica 2 spam on a large group of party members can also tear aggro off a Tank pretty easily.

I think I'm still traumatized on some level by the number of healers who did this on Titan Hard and Extreme. Even more so by the number who were told WHY the Tank lost aggro, then proceeded to blame the Tank for it regardless.

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As long as the tank is well geared, knows job rotations, it shouldn't. It's rare that Medica 2 Spam takes enmity even in large groups settings. It's more of the way tanks use their aoes and manage hate bars. If in a Single mob fight let Tank build enmity a bit first. Hopefully he isn't under geared. If they are they are actions to lower enmity generation which healers and even some DPS should know how top use.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

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You're throwing out a LOT of theoretical circumstances here while treating them as hard evidence. The problem with that is, with the way content has been designed thus far, anything that hits for as hard as your maximum HP, MORE than your maximum HP, or just a LITTLE BIT LESS than your maximum HP is generally stuff that's intended to force you to use your panic, last ditch "not die" button (Hallowed, Holmgang, Living Dead) in order to survive regardless of how high your maximum HP value is. Or the attack is a hard enrage that's supposed to kill you anyway.

In addition, nobody said that we "have 5 useless equipment slots that does nothing if we put VIT accessories in them". The thing that everybody keeps saying is that it's a waste to give yourself MORE than what you need.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

As long as the tank is well geared, knows job rotations, it shouldn't. It's rare that Medica 2 Spam takes enmity even in large groups settings.

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It does, and it's not rare whatsoever, especially when a healer overheals, and continues to overheal, the entire party with Medica 2 spam, mostly because of the constant reapplication of its Regen effect. It generates a LOT of healer aggro and there's little Tanks were able to do to stop this, even if they had a large aggro lead beforehand and were spamming nothing but their enmity combo.

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Originally Posted by Kinkoz

It does, and it's not rare whatsoever, especially when a healer overheals, and continues to overheal, the entire party with Medica 2 spam, mostly because of the constant reapplication of its Regen effect. It generates a LOT of healer aggro and there's little Tanks were able to do to stop this, even if they had a large aggro lead beforehand and were spamming nothing but their enmity combo.

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Not if you tank in tank stance.

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Originally Posted by Inuakurei

Not if you tank in tank stance.

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t. Never did Titan Hard or EX back in 2.x :^)

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Originally Posted by Kinkoz

t. Never did Titan Hard or EX back in 2.x :^)

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I'm not sure I understand your comment... Is that the inclination to spam Medica to heal raid damage in Titan HM/EX would take aggro from a tank even in tank stance? Or are you saying that tanks didn't tank in tank stance for Titan HM/EX? Because I'm pretty sure both are wrong.

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Originally Posted by Falar

Tanks that just spam aggro combos and stink up the place, just stop. You make content take way too long.

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Honestly the min or two tank dps shaves off a dungeon is negligible.

Having leveled tank a little bit more and more as frequently as I am able to play, I can see why tanks are asking for strength to be placed on their accessories. There are too many DPS who simply do not bother using enmity skills and if I (when I play tank) ask if they could use them, I am either vote kicked or they continue to pull aggro upon which, I use shirk to kill them off. I do not believe that all tanks are trying to play DPS tank. I do see some tanks who are solely concerned about their DPS but I do not believe this is the majority. I think, until DPS learn to use the enmity skills or are forced to use them, tanks will not have an easier time in content. Even if there are tanks who can hold aggro while wearing VIT accessories, the fact remains that there exist over-zealous DPS who want to pull aggro and play tank as a DPS. I do not believe that tanks are entirely at fault, enmity is a party-wide responsibility and not just the tanks job. Just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Inuakurei

I'm not sure I understand your comment... Is that the inclination to spam Medica to heal raid damage in Titan HM/EX would take aggro from a tank even in tank stance? Or are you saying that tanks didn't tank in tank stance for Titan HM/EX? Because I'm pretty sure both are wrong.

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So, back in 2.0, the only Tank that had a "DPS stance" was Paladin, via Sword Oath, and Warriors had nothing more than Defiance in terms of having a "stance" whatsoever, which is already their Tank stance. Dark Knight did not exist back in 2.0 either, so these were the only two Tanks in the game, and, thus, Tanking outside of Tank stance in 50+ content was almost never a thing, at least not to my knowledge.

Your first question is the correct analysis of the situation, although you seem to be mistaking Medica and Medica 2 with one another. Medica was perfectly fine to spam as a group heal. Medica 2, on the other hand, was not, as spamming the skill to heal partywide damage had a tendency to generate ridiculous amounts of Healer enmity on account of it not only providing an AoE heal to the entire party (with the correct positioning on the White Mage and the rest of the party's respective parts) but also on account of the fact that spamming it constantly reapplied the Regen effect on top of it, which, when the party is already topped off and is only losing just slivers of health to, say, Titan's raidwide damaging, consecutive stomps, caused a significant spike of overhealing, or so the game thinks, which caused the Healer who was spamming Medica 2 to tear enmity off of the Main Tank quite easily, even if the Main Tank did nothing BUT their enmity combo, and/or Provoke'd Titan back onto themselves and tried to secure their own enmity generation with another combo.

If you had played either Paladin or Warrior back during this time and were quite experienced with tanking Titan Hard mode or Extreme mode (although in my experience, it tended to happen more frequently with Hard than it did Extreme, since EX used to be a massive skill wall back then for the playerbase), then chances are likely you might've ran into this exact problem sooner or later.