What is this new anti dps healer attitude?

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Originally Posted by Keridwyn

You're right about not being able to DPS as much, we no longer outgear the content by wide margin anymore so everyone is having to pay just a wee bit more attention these days. It's also smart to set yourself limits, nobody in this thread is advocating for people to DPS irresponsibly. It's just a discussion between folks who think any healer dps is irresponsible and those of us who know we are capable of managing our resources properly.

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Thanks :> I was merely stating this because it was stressing me not being able to dps as before. You know, all them elitists complaining about healers not dpsing. Now I just can't do it without risking my party dying. The Vault has become particularly hard, even without dpsing I end up running out of mana with heals when the tank does big pulls. And I feel my parties just aren't evading AoEs as before either x.x

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Originally Posted by PharisHanasaki

Thanks :> I was merely stating this because it was stressing me not being able to dps as before. You know, all them elitists complaining about healers not dpsing. Now I just can't do it without risking my party dying. The Vault has become particularly hard, even without dpsing I end up running out of mana with heals when the tank does big pulls. And I feel my parties just aren't evading AoEs as before either x.x

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The Vault has always been one of those dungeons, it's so easy for everything to go south in there and we don't have a lot of our best toys to salvage the situation with. Just do the best you can and if that means you don't DPS when the damage is flying, that's fine. It's about personal comfort ultimately. Although if your parties are actively standing in the bad just remember at that point it's not you, it's them.

I'd actually hazard that it's easier to DPS than ever with the rework of Cleric Stance and how laughably pared down "healer DPS rotations" have become (in most cases literally two or three buttons now instead of four or five). Couple that with some of the insane throughput cooldowns healers like Astrologian got, and you're pretty set to snooze your way Gravity-ing through expert roulettes all the way to 5.0.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Was this is response to me? O.o Or the OP? Because neither of us have issues with healers DPSing. Both of us DPS as healers ourselves.

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Sorry I wasn't clear enough. I was talking to all of the people here complaining about their healer dpsing.

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Originally Posted by Noata

If a DRK casts blood price and you can't wait 4 seconds for him to get aggro and manage MP so you can easily holy spam, then your just making things more difficult for others.

Healers were made to be able to DPS easy, and they balanced around that. Mobs hit harder and tanks have less mitigation... you can't dps as much as you used to.
If any DPS or tank dies while your DPSing, the loss of damage because of that is greater then what you will pull. So DPS, but don't make things harder by forgetting people in general take more damage and tanks can't just absorb as much damage anymore. Should people complain to you about this? No, not really unless you are killing the group.

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I would like clarification about blood price. When I WHM for large pulls will follow the tank (can't really heal during many of the bigger pulls as there isn't much time between groups to get a heal off. Once the tank has them he will have lost hit points. I will typically does on a regen as I run to the tank and then if i can insta cast holy. This will stun the mobs for 4secs giving me a chance to catch up on healing, apply the AoE regen if needed, I'm not casting it to OMG dps.

The first Holy has the added benefit of canceling the 3plus AoEs the mobs are casting on the tank/dps. It really cleans up the pull.

Stun has diminishing returns so at max mobs will be stunned for 6secs at the start of the big pull.

There is no way the DK has lost a huge amount of mana in that first 6secs so I would say to the DK wait to apply it. you will still have all the mobs up you will actually have used mana. Holy is one of the big advantages WHM have with large pulls.

Am I missing something else with DP?

Again it isn't about OMG dps for most WHM it really stabilizes incoming and means I don't have to burn healing cooldowns to get the tank back up.

I was thinking about this, but I also think how it is presented affects whether a person wants to dps or not. I am thinking about leveling a SCH up because my SMN is already 60. I save some leveling time. If I do try it though and I get a tank or dps that is yelling at me to dps, their yelling will activate my stubborn side, and I will tell them to shut it. There might have been a chance I would be willing to learn to dps as a healer once I got comfortable with it, but if that does happen, the chance will be gone forever just so I can gain a victory against people forcing it on others.

I've got attitude twice this expansion for not even dpsing much. I never even WIPED once until my 2nd run of Doma Castle and the final trial but those weren't my fault either. Anyway, first run of Doma Castle there were no wipes but a dps made a comment on me saying ''Healer jobs are meant to heal... or is that just me o.o'' I didn't respond to him cause I was healing but little did he know I had Earthly star up and dpsing so he thought I wasn't healing at all. The 2nd time I got attitude this expansion was in the final trial.... where a tank told me I should be raising instead of dpsing. Why waste mp raising people dying to obvious stuff?

As a tank, here's my perspective. While leveling through Stormblood, always using a cooldown sometimes 2 depending on the pull, I often saw healers casting a 10K cure when I had only 3K-4K HP missing or curing after Equilibrium. On top of that when the party is indeed full HP, I saw a high number of healers just standing around, running to treasure chests or just jumping around. As much as I feel that a healer should play the way he is most comfortable, don't be that healer with pauses of 4-5 seconds between casts. The DPS players might not notice but the tank sure will and he'll be annoyed that he has to fight for his aggro non-stop thanks to RDM players not managing their aggro while you just stand there looking pretty.

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Originally Posted by PharisHanasaki

Oh so I'm fine then? I feel I can't dps as much as before because tanks are squishy and dps can't take down shit as fast as before. And since I can't choose between using Malefic I instead of Malefic II when my mana pool is below half I simply stop all dps :P

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Malefic I/II/III cost the same MP in the expansion now. And by the same MP i mean that the MP difference between Benefic - Malefic I/II/III is always at the same proportion. The same way as Cure and Stone/II/III/IIII always have the same MP cost.

Yeah, it's great~ I've kicked a little over six dozen dpsing healer PUGs since the start of SB! I don't mind if it's a healer I know and trust, but PUGs don't do it well, so not gonna carry~

My idea on this topic: If your group is over 80% health 90% of the time and not under 40% health unless tank didn't pop a CD or DPS is standing in stuff, DPS to your hearts content. No one should be chastising you for DPS when no one is below 80% for a good amount of time. If people are above 80% and never drop below and you have spare GCDs and not running low on mana, a DOT or two up.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Yeah, it's great~ I've kicked a little over six dozen dpsing healer PUGs since the start of SB! I don't mind if it's a healer I know and trust, but PUGs don't do it well, so not gonna carry~

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Note to self if I run into your character I'll vote no on every dismiss you try.

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Originally Posted by Faliandra

I dont know if this is a data center thing, but I'm on EU Chaos and I really have been seeing this attitude increase a lot.

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This is a debate that goes back years. It's not new. You're stirring a very old pot. In any case, the principle role of healers is to heal. Period. There is no good argument to the contrary.

[Didn't read every page, just OP]

PLD main here with my 2 cents.

Some healers will not be able to manage that type of playstyle and since it is a healer role that people are going into these dungeons for they really need to focus on that first. This is basically it, anything below is just my personal experiences and practice.

As a tank, I get worried every time my health gets lower than 45%. But I'll always pop my defensives and if need be I'll help heal, more aggro for me.

At this point 2 expansions into this game playing only PLD, I'd be kind of ashamed to not be able to tank stuff when the healer is helping DPS. Especially for roulettes and new dungeons on normal, people are trying to have a good time and enjoy the new content there's no need for me to get salty at my group.

With everything above though, there are dungeons that need full healing attention and I'll go ahead and ask politely.

This is all just base on my experience though.

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Originally Posted by Kelzack

As a tank, I get worried every time my health gets lower than 45%.

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One of the new scholar abilities, Excogitation, doesn't even trigger until you drop below 50%.

People who say that healers should not DPS are just ignorant people. You're asking me to deny half my utility kit so you can feel safe? A good player should always utitlise ALL the tools available. If I want to Holy the shit out of twenty mobs while keeping you alive, I'll do so and you don't need to tell me otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Yeah, it's great~ I've kicked a little over six dozen dpsing healer PUGs since the start of SB! I don't mind if it's a healer I know and trust, but PUGs don't do it well, so not gonna carry~

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This is edging between the different playstyle justification and outright harassment and if you had a shred of common sense you would see that. It's one thing to kick someone for playing their job in such a way that it causes deaths or wipes but entirely another to kick someone for playing a way you don't like.

Basically you can justify it as different playstyle if you'd like, the difference is that theirs is good and yours is bad.

If I get a lazy healer who wont DPS and tops me off whenever I fall below 99% HP, I will speed run, mass pull, chain pull etc. and put their ass to work.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

This is edging between the different playstyle justification and outright harassment and if you had a shred of common sense you would see that. It's one thing to kick someone for playing their job in such a way that it causes deaths or wipes but entirely another to kick someone for playing a way you don't like.

Basically you can justify it as different playstyle if you'd like, the difference is that theirs is good and yours is bad.

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Ignore her. She purposely takes the opposite extreme in every discussion just to try and get a rise out of people.

Sadly, its pretty much been stated that they arent expected to DPS, hell they dont even seem to want tanks to either, If you do however get a healer that does DPS they deserve a comm. Come to think of it my entire time in SB ive maybe seen 2 healers or 3 that did dps in the levelling and other expert dungeons. Doesnt personally bother me, but the runs do feel extended

Ona bright note, at least you dont have to dodge as much during pulls(not)

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Originally Posted by kupokage

If I get a lazy healer who wont DPS and tops me off whenever I fall below 99% HP, I will speed run, mass pull, chain pull etc. and put their ass to work.

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Yes! Love this so much. As someone that did the MSQ as AST (friend as PLD) I did easily find time to DPS. Now though for a change of pace I've gone BRD (so much support!) and I make sure to pop my 20% increased healing on my tank when he does the big pulls and once that is off I'll give him a nice 20% physical damage reduction so that the healers have less to heal and can do some nice damage.

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Originally Posted by Pells

One of the new scholar abilities, Excogitation, doesn't even trigger until you drop below 50%.

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Oh don't get me wrong, that's just me being a worry wort. I still trust my group completely. You have to in these roulettes it helps everyone move along well together.

This all boils down to players making sound judgements

There is absolutely no issues for a healer to do DPS in cases where the party is cruising through encounters. What is the point in a healer standing idle during a 30 second encounter, where a maximum of 2-3 heals is sufficient to keep the tank (group) in a good health standing. 80% of healers time is wasted, when he could contribute to speeding up runs. Healers judge situation based on their experience and observation of current party capabilities. Obviously there are bad healers and good healers (just as there are smarter and dumber people in real world) but tanks/DPS should be smart enough to understand this. But alas, there too, are smart and dumb tanks/dps.

Essentially, apply some sound judgement to the situation.

On phone here bear with me.
So basically this new attitude comes from bad tank and healers alike. Healers tunneling in on dps and getting the heals off to late or forcing the tank to use the oh shit CDs when they are not needed. Also comes to tanks pulling everything possiple without knowing their classes limits and CD management.

Thing to remember is 40/40/20
40% of people suck at their class
40% are average
20% are good
So most of the time you are seeing people biting off more than they can chew or expecting others to carry their weight without testing the waters and raging on others for expecting to group with the top 20%

I used to not have issues with tanks using CDs, but lately with SB, they sure as heck wont keep up CDs.
Even if im only healing, and they are full HP, the period of time it takes to cast a cure spell, they die if mobs crit them.
They take waaaaay too much dmg.
(plus a lot of them are standing in AoEs, as they dont wanna dodge them, which pretty much is impossible to heal them through with enough mobs)

Queued for extreme primals. Primal left 50+% hp, 1-2 dead players, healers just Stone II until we wiped. I kind of feel the sentiment there.

I still hope and pray SE is making things hit harder and putting up more gates on purpose. It's NICE to not have to worry about trying to out race Sonic the freaking hedgehog for once. Healer dpsing and tank dpsing is fine when it's not killing the party. But I feel like these dungeons are trying to push them fro mdoing that.. and that's ok I feel. It feels good to have to be careful for once.-

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

This is edging between the different playstyle justification and outright harassment and if you had a shred of common sense you would see that. It's one thing to kick someone for playing their job in such a way that it causes deaths or wipes but entirely another to kick someone for playing a way you don't like.

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Nine out of ten healers caused wipes by dpsing too much and being unable to perform even their basic job, leading to deaths. Yeah, I'd say my prejudice is well placed. Course, if I'm running with a healer I know, I'm more than happy with them DPSing~

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Nine out of ten healers caused wipes by dpsing too much and being unable to perform even their basic job

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Made up statistics to push an agenda brought to you by Thunda!

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

Made up statistics to push an agenda brought to you by Thunda!

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You forgot that not only are they made up they're also so completely unrealistic.

As an AST my dps basically sucks but if the tank is good dps are 75% or better with no party aoe's coming and I have no mana worries I will happily toss some dps out. If you are pulling the dungeon in one pull between bosses then Earthly Star might be all you see and me hoping for a server tick or two for mana while not using it.

I've not had an issue with dpsing in any of the new dungeons as healer. I've also had a decent amount in DF (when I'm on DRG) who do a good amount of damage. No complaints heard. The Tank in my last group pretty much pulled what they could, and the healer kept on top of it while dishing out damage.

When I play with randoms, I judge by the first pull. If tank is fine and dps is too slow, I'll help. If people are getting hit left and right, I'll heal more

There are some healers that would prefer to DPS over actually keeping the tank and other players alive. I've had several dungeons where I'm using cooldowns properly and using as much self sustain as I can but I still die because the healer isn't paying attention and is far too focused on DPS.

You shouldn't project dislike towards people not doing their job as a general negative view towards all dps healers.

I love DPS'ing healers. Always COMM them.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

You shouldn't project dislike towards people not doing their job as a general negative view towards all dps healers.

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I don't!

Only to PUGs I don't know, not when it's someone I queue up with.

Hellluuuuuu

people need understand that healer main job is healing, dps is opcional, if you want do dps ok, else is ok too.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

I used to not have issues with tanks using CDs, but lately with SB, they sure as heck wont keep up CDs.
Even if im only healing, and they are full HP, the period of time it takes to cast a cure spell, they die if mobs crit them.
They take waaaaay too much dmg.
(plus a lot of them are standing in AoEs, as they dont wanna dodge them, which pretty much is impossible to heal them through with enough mobs)

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In defense of standing in AOE's, sometimes you can't move. Hence always cleanse paralyze/heavy debuffs. This happens to healers too. eg you go to use Holy and then suddenly you have 6 overlapping AOE's and nowhere to go if the Holy stun comes too late. This is why I don't spam Holy, I usually use it once, cast Assize, Aero III, Maybe Aero II, cast regen on the tank, and then try a second Holy if the mobs still have half their HP by that.

When playing Tank, Cone and Line AOE's can typically be avoided by running towards the boss/mob if not canceled with shield bash or another stun action by someone else. It's the circle AOE's that are hard to avoid, and the non-telegraphed hits.

Speaking of things to learn as a Tank. When you play healer, you generally aren't looking at what the boss/mob is casting, just the AOE on the floor. As a Tank you need to know what every AOE does and if you should try to cancel it. First time I did Amdapor Keep as tank I remembered about floor AOE's from Healing, but never actually recalled the Repel move because tanks tended to avoid it, or the wall died before it ever did it. So the first time I tanked that I was doing fine and then got hit by Repel and went flying off the edge. Y'know just as the demon wall dies. Second time I remembered about it.

But since SB's release it seems like healers are ripping hate from the tank way too easily, and I've seen a few cases where I hear a "whoosh" noise and then all the mobs head towards the healer, and I'm not sure what they're doing, but it's incredibly annoying to have all the mobs hate and then suddenly the entire enmity list goes green because something the healer did, and flash will not get them back. Only Provoke does and that has a cooldown that won't work for getting multiple enemies back. So Ultimatum (basically an AOE Provoke) works on that, once.

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Originally Posted by Aescwhisky

As an AST my dps basically sucks

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How do you define "sucks"? In expert today I was doing over 1k average (for the whole run) DPS (Kugane castle) on my i302 AST. That's more than 1/3 of what our two DDs did on average and I would consider it a decent contribution. And I wasn't even pushing it at all but playing it safe, since I figured the tank was a first timer, and I wasn't playing as well as I could have (was for example neglecting Earthly Star a lot).

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

When you play healer, you generally aren't looking at what the boss/mob is casting, just the AOE on the floor.

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For healers it's probably the most important of all the classes that you're always looking what the mobs are casting. That's what the focus target function is for. If you don't know what the enemies are casting, you can't pre-emptively heal, and healer gameplay is all about pre-emptive healing.