[Tanks/Healers]: Are you disappointed there is no new job in 4.0?

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Originally Posted by bass9020

So would you prefer another healer or tank thats exactly like what we have now because they couldn't think of something more unique? Of course DPS will always be the most bloated role but its better than getting more clones with just a different name attached.

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You're implying that new dps jobs reinvent the wheel when they dont. MCH was a copy of brd just as much as drk was a copy of pld and ast a copy of whm/sch. You assume that RDM will be drastically different than BLM, and that SAM will be drastically different from the other melee dps.

On top of that, just because the 3 jobs for HW were more copies than anything, doesn't mean that ever tank or healer they add would be copies too. The situation is different.

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

You're implying that new dps jobs reinvent the wheel when they dont. MCH was a copy of brd just as much as drk was a copy of pld and ast a copy of whm/sch. You assume that RDM will be drastically different than BLM, and that SAM will be drastically different from the other melee dps.

On top of that, just because the 3 jobs for HW were more copies than anything, doesn't mean that ever tank or healer they add would be copies too. The situation is different.

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They didnt have to be though, did they? So what real evidence can we go by? It couldnt be that a lot of the same is consistently repeated, imo mostly due to playing it safe. This was totally apparent, with these new jobs. Again though, youll probably disagree i personally feel like dps have more lee way in order to
get the jerb done" over the other 2 toles, that are extremely tied to a kit.

To answer this: Personally, myself, I'm not disappointed.

I think the balance of Three tanks and Three Healers is adequate enough for everything in the game.

However, I'm hoping that they will be spending a fair amount of time tweaking the tanks and healers to make them feel a bit more special and a bit more interesting. While I get you want to have people jumping into the classes, and right now, I have no issues on how the tanks work, I will say that it feels like there's little difference between the three tanks. While I completely get the Warrior aspect versus the Dark Knight aspect, all three are rather generic with their ways. It'd be more fun, as a tank, to have different flavours.

Paladins are masters of mitigation? Make it happen with potent mitigating abilities. Make them the stalwart defenders.

Dark Knights have magical resistances? Have more of those; make the fights do more of those, just make it so that it's more interesting to use those abilities and really work on the lore of the class.

Warriors are meatshields that can take a hit? They're in a good place right now with the health, but work with that.

I feel the biggest thing about the classes, as a tank perspective, is that we're losing the identity in favor of making every tank be viable. I'm okay with having some fights benefit one class over the other. So long as that class still can do it, that's fine. But I personally would love to see some tanks have edges here and there.

And trust me, I know what I'm asking may be very well impossible, but the fact that there's no extra tanks or healers, they should put some focus on making it more interesting for those roles, too.

I'm not bitter or angry at all about the DD getting two new classes. I just hope they take the time that they would have put towards a new class for tanking/healing and make the current ones 'better'.

As a WHM main, I'm eststatic that we're not getting another healer. WHM is in such a was right now, we don't need another healer to make balance issues worse than they already are.

Considering that Immortal Flames STILL doesn't have a starting city healer class, yes, I am disappointed. It's taken nearly 450 frontline runs to get 101 Immortal Flames victories. The majority of those loses are from 24 people, 0 of them being healers. I am assuming that MOST people pick their starting city based off the class they want to main, and as such this results in IF getting the short end of the stick in PVP. The freelancer stuff has helped a good bit, but still not the same, and if I was a healer for Mael or Adders I would NOT be running as freelancer.

All I'm saying is in 5.0, there better be NO new dps classes.

I don't care if I sound "salty", fair is fair.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

All I'm saying is in 5.0, there better be NO new dps classes.

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That is how everyone who doesn't play tank or healer and didn't like MCH felt two years ago. This train of thought is very self-centered and terrible from a design standpoint.

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

You're implying that new dps jobs reinvent the wheel when they dont. MCH was a copy of brd just as much as drk was a copy of pld and ast a copy of whm/sch. You assume that RDM will be drastically different than BLM, and that SAM will be drastically different from the other melee dps.

On top of that, just because the 3 jobs for HW were more copies than anything, doesn't mean that ever tank or healer they add would be copies too. The situation is different.

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Im not implying anything. I know MCH was a copy of bard but this thread is about tanks and healers not dps. Adding dps is easier than adding tanks and healers since they require two kits as ADVSS said, the dps side of the kit probably isn't an issue since it would follow every other job with dots, single target and aoe. The heal mechanics and tank mechanics are more tricky since it requires more thought, we clearly see SE doesn't like to go out of the box (which is a shame) because of the Dark Knight and Astrologian skill sets. So all I'm saying it until they decide to change things up or come up with a unique idea I think just adding dps was a safe choice.

I'm not disapointed.

If we split the classes as:

tank / healer / caster /range dps / melee dps

Everyone should understand they are taking turns. we got ninja which was melee, then tank + healer + ranged dps, now it's time for melee + caster. Everyone gets their "turn" so to speak. i don't think adding tanks + healers every single expansion is also healthy for the game.

I appreciate the fact the dev team is actually trying to balance things out before adding more classes to the mix and possibly making things more difficult for them in the long run.
I like my WHM/ PLD the way they are. I personally find them fun to play. Could they use some love? yes, but this is a MMO. The classes are still growing.

Patience seems to be severely lacking these days.

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

What I think about healers reworked :

- Sch : Selene should be entirely reworked + some spells as Emergency Tactics, Dissipation
- Whm : Stoneskins II should be available in content, need more spells related to elements (water, wind and earth)
- Astro : Just rework this entire job, or nearly all. Remove the 2 stances. Remove all the HoT (excepted these from Collective Unconscious). Remove at least Balance and Arrow or it will be top job healer again. Make Shuffle 20 sec cd, add a hotbar to put cards drawn and choose if you want spread or solo when launched.
Keep instant cast concept and shield from nocturnal stance, make its shield act like a HoT which will be turn into SoT. It need a dps cycle more interesting.

If they could do this kind of thing, I will be happy even if we don't have a new healer job :)

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...... *hugs astrometer* ;w;

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

All I'm saying is in 5.0, there better be NO new dps classes.

I don't care if I sound "salty", fair is fair.

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Sadly there be as most of the ff classes that can be tanks or healers are gone.
Well maybe dancer for healer.
But as tank go you have nothing.

No. I'm not disappointed.

I'm more so concerned about how paladin/warrior/Dark knight will change in the next expansion.

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Originally Posted by XSamsaraLotusX

Sadly there be as most of the ff classes that can be tanks or healers are gone.
Well maybe dancer for healer.
But as tank go you have nothing.

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probably could make beast master a pet-based tank class, and add templar from tactics advance as a tank (maybe even blue mage, seeing as how it was one of the more versatile classes). theres also the possibility of ffxiv exclusive jobs. i wouldn't mind seeing a job that exclusively uses a greatshield for both offense and defense.

Nope, I'll be playing all my healers anyways when 4.0 is out maybe tank as well. I will lvl the new jobs later although if you see me in your party give me those comms thx in advance :)

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

got any ideas for a new healer or tank that youd like to see?

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There was at least a bit of discussion about New Job ideas for tanks (Blue Mage, Samurai as tank, Gunblade/Garlean themed Tank, Red Mage as Tank, Dancer as Evasion Tank), but it's much harder to focus discussion on new Tank ideas then changes to existing ones. It's easy to see the problems with Paladins or the current Tanking meta, but it's harder to envision an entire new class from start-to-finish. As players, we don't know exactly what kind of mechanics are feasible from the game engine, and we lack a lot of knowledge about future encounters or development features. For all we know, 5.0 could turn the entire combat system into Rock Paper Scissors. Building new jobs from scratch at anything more than a surface level is difficult, and even harder to discuss. There's not too much to critique if all you can reasonably say is "I want a Garlean themed tank".

It's far easier to give feedback on existing jobs and abilities then build from nothing. Even for DPS you'll see more discussion on edits to existing jobs then the addition of new ones. We can't give feedback on things we don't actually know anything about. Which is also why I'm disappointed by the lack of information on the supposed class revamps. I would love to give some feedback a little bit earlier, but we have nothing to discuss in that regard.

As I mentioned earlier, I am disappointed by the lack of a new Tank/Healer, and I was especially disappointed by their poor arguments. I understand they were just trying to assuage the (very real) concerns about queue times, but it felt like a bit of a slap in the face. During the stream, you could tell a fair number of people in the audience were disappointed with this part of the announcement. Most people (including myself for the most part) have cooled off, but I think some disappointment is perfectly appropriate. New Jobs/Classes are always one of the most exciting part of an expansion, and a good number of players feel a bit left out. It was kind of inevitable since Heavensward added three new jobs and this one is only adding two, especially since Ninja came out shortly before Heavensward as well.

That said, hopefully in the next expansion we'll have new Jobs to be excited for. If the balance updates are phenomenal, we'll have more room for expansion. At the very least, they won't have that excuse anymore. It's just very long off into the horizon right now, and discussion of possible new Tanks/Healers is basically pointless for the time being. Giving feedback on existing Tanks/Healers can still be valuable, since those revamps are probably very early in development or still very much subject to change.

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Originally Posted by Claymore65

There was at least a bit of discussion about New Job ideas for tanks (Blue Mage, Samurai as tank, Gunblade/Garlean themed Tank, Red Mage as Tank, Dancer as Evasion Tank), but it's much harder to focus discussion on new Tank ideas then changes to existing ones. It's easy to see the problems with Paladins or the current Tanking meta, but it's harder to envision an entire new class from start-to-finish. As players, we don't know exactly what kind of mechanics are feasible from the game engine, and we lack a lot of knowledge about future encounters or development features.

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If you're saying that the tank meta needs to be fixed and we need to properly understand tanking in FFXIV and frame it properly with the existing tanks before we embark on a 4th, broken, tank job, I agree completely.

im gonna try to sound like im not a noob, but here i go.

im not even sure if there are other options. meaning that there are not many role-play concepts for tanks and healers that the game already does not have. however, there are a few concepts that i had briefly seen, such as a dancer healer or a hammer/club-wielding tank. meanwhile, there are numerous role-playing concepts options for DPS' that the game does not already have.

There is still an old job from FFIII that can be the hammer tank people are looking for that may possibly be added later, Viking.

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Originally Posted by Deedsie

There is still an old job from FFIII that can be the hammer tank people are looking for that may possibly be added later, Viking.

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really?

https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/m...oncept_art.jpg

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

Astro : Just rework this entire job, or nearly all. Remove the 2 stances. Remove all the HoT (excepted these from Collective Unconscious). Remove at least Balance and Arrow or it will be top job healer again. Make Shuffle 20 sec cd, add a hotbar to put cards drawn and choose if you want spread or solo when launched.
Keep instant cast concept and shield from nocturnal stance, make its shield act like a HoT which will be turn into SoT. It need a dps cycle more interesting.

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Please no. I don't really see a problem with AST, but I know some people don't like it because it's no WHM or SCH. It doesn't need to be.

I switched from WHM to AST before the changes. I tried SCH after, and it was just not as fun.
I'm happy with what they did to Redraw, and the % changes on card buffs. The only thing that could 'maybe' improve it, is removing the stance swap restriction while on battles... And maybe either upping the duration for spear, or having it reduce cooldown on already-cast spells too. Removing balance and arrow doesn't make sense. Adding a hotbar for cards... more hotbars, really? You're just too used to playing SCH.

I'm very, very happy with AST as it is. Most people are just bad at it (sorry :<).

On topic, I was a bit dissapointed that they won't add a 4th healer or tank role. I'm eager to see the queue times for DPS when stormblood hits xP

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Originally Posted by Mysticdraggon

im not even sure if there are other options. meaning that there are not many role-play concepts for tanks and healers that the game already does not have.

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Why do people keep saying this? Ranged, caster, pet/summon, shapeshifting, 1-handed, 2-handed, duel-wield, bare-handed, guns, whatever. Pretty much any concept you can apply to DPS can and has been used for tanks and healers in other games. RIFT, ESO, WoW, Archeage, Wildstar, DCUO, CoX, etc... I'm sure there are others but you get the idea. FFXIV is nowhere close to being all out of concepts for non-DPS jobs. The idea that they are is laughable.

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Originally Posted by Drakkaelus

Why do people keep saying this? Ranged, caster, pet/summon, shapeshifting, 1-handed, 2-handed, duel-wield, bare-handed, guns, whatever. Pretty much any concept you can apply to DPS can and has been used for tanks and healers in other games. RIFT, ESO, WoW, Archeage, Wildstar, DCUO, CoX, etc... I'm sure there are others you get the idea. FFXIV is nowhere close to being all out of concepts for non-DPS jobs. The idea that they are is laughable.

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I'd love to see a Shape-shifting tank by adding Morpher to BLU or possibly BST, but you run into the age old issue of players who enjoy that class complaining how gear upgrades never are reflected visually for them, because no company ever creates new models for forms. Maybe SE could make it work. I'd be curious to see.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

I'd love to see a Shape-shifting tank by adding Morpher to BLU or possibly BST, but you run into the age old issue of players who enjoy that class complaining how gear upgrades never are reflected visually for them, because no company ever creates new models for forms. Maybe SE could make it work. I'd be curious to see.

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Fix for that would be to shapeshift for different abilities, so that you spend part of the fight as "normal" and part of the fight shapeshifted. :)

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Fix for that would be to shapeshift for different abilities, so that you spend part of the fight as "normal" and part of the fight shapeshifted. :)

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Like Cleric Stance, or a 30 second buff that leaves you in form? I'm not sure either would be favorable to a lot of players. I'd love to pick the dev's brains over a Shapeshifting Class and how they'd make gear work. It could be possible for a form that visually uses different armor/barding and what not with new gear... It'd just be another set of cosmetics for a given patch.

No, as in certain abilities transform you when you use them, and you use them regularly in your rotation. Not sure what you're referencing by comparing cleric stance. That is a toggle button and not what I was talking about.

[edit] Off-the-wall example, but imagine if a Dragoon jump transformed you into a diving hawk or something while you carried out the ability. Obviously not that exact example but something akin to it.

As a tank, nope. Not disappointed that there are no new tanks.
I think Samurai is what it should be as DPS.
And RDM is 'okay' as DPS as well.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

I'd love to see a Shape-shifting tank by adding Morpher to BLU or possibly BST, but you run into the age old issue of players who enjoy that class complaining how gear upgrades never are reflected visually for them, because no company ever creates new models for forms. Maybe SE could make it work. I'd be curious to see.

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Pretty much like Naunet said, you could solve the problem by having you constantly shift in and out of your transformed state. Demon Hunters in WoW and Necromancers in GW2 handled it that way. Worked out pretty well.

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Originally Posted by Drakkaelus

Pretty much like Naunet said, you could solve the problem by having you constantly shift in and out of your transformed state. Demon Hunters in WoW and Necromancers in GW2 handled it that way. Worked out pretty well.

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Yeah but that's a fairly cheap cop out. Most people I know who player Shape shifting classes prefer form permanence. Admittedly I don't know every single player who likes these kinds of classes, but its just my opinion that you'd draw more players with a class that enables a permanent transformation which could be toggled on and off.

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Originally Posted by Giubba

really?

https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/m...oncept_art.jpg

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That's not a hammer.

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Originally Posted by Deedsie

That's not a hammer.

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that's a viking

Idk if this has been mentioned by anyone yet, but you mustn't consider the new DPS classes as just "DPS." Remember that, within DPS roles, there are both melee and ranged DPS, and the later are divided between physical and casters.

There hadn't been a melee DPS since the introduction of Ninja in 2.4, and there hadn't been a caster since the literal release of the game. This is almost three years of wait time for casters!

I know this might not mean much for tanks or healers, but there are people that prefer certain playstyles to their jobs, so getting a new caster and a new melee DPS is giving a new toy for people who hadn't gotten one for far longer than us tanks and healers did :)

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Originally Posted by Drakkaelus

Pretty much any concept you can apply to DPS can and has been used for tanks and healers.

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it either turn into a clone i.e. PLD/DRK, more less BRD/MCH, or it become unbalance i.e. 3.0 AST-->buffed AST
dont get me wrong, I am happy and welcome for more jobs, but I would appreciate more if each job have their own identity and balancing issue
I am excite about 4.0 DPS class, but also worry about they being clone to current DPS class
Dev should really focus on balancing each class and giving uniqueness to them before introducing more job and making these chaos worse

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

I am excite about 4.0 DPS class, but also worry about they being clone to current DPS class
Dev should really focus on balancing each class and giving uniqueness to them before introducing more job and making these chaos worse

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a bit of a concern for me as well, I hope they were designed to be their own job and not to -directly- compete with say NiN(rdm).

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

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Yes, because if RDM isn't the jack of all trades then it isn't RDM to me therefore I won't like it most likely, and I never really cared for Samurai before so this game having it now isn't likely to change that much. If I had a new healer to try out, my experience as a healer for this new expansion could be that much richer, but yeah, it didn't happen. Anyways, Dancer please. :/

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

a bit of a concern for me as well, I hope they were designed to be their own job and not to -directly- compete with say NiN(rdm).

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SAM skills:

Sword of Hate: Increases damage dealt by 5%, cannot be used with Sword of Flight or Sword of Parry
Sword of Parry: Reduces Damage taken by 10% (PvP 5%), cannot be used with Sword of Flight or Sword of Hate
Sword of Flight: Increases Movement Speed

Quick Slice: Delivers an attack with a potency of 150, crit damage if dealt from a target's rear, changes form to Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu
True Slice: Delivers an attack with potency of 150, 190 when executed from targets rear, changes form to Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu, can only be executed when in Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu stance
Thousand Cuts: Delivers an attack with potency of 30, 70 when executed from targets rear, Additional effect: damage over time, potency 50 duration 21s, changes form to Ono-ha Itto-ru can only be executed when in Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu stance, grants BunBu status duration 15s, pvp 28s

BunBu status: increases damage dealt by 10% and reduces weapon skill cast time and recast time, spell cast time and recast time and auto-attack delay by 5% can stack up to 3

Bushido Hou: opens up a Bushido, up to 5 Bushido can be opened at once

Ronin: Delivers an attack with a potency of 320, can only be used when under the effect of Fifth Bushido, The five Bushido close upon execution

Seppuku: Delivers an attack with a potency of 330, can only be used when under the effect of BunBu III, Effect fades upon execution

No, because there are new jobs in 4.0. They're both DPS jobs.

/troll

I'm not disappointed that there are no healer or tank jobs coming with this game, mainly because the whole combat system is getting revamped. I think I'll feel like I'm playing as a new job even when I go back to WHM.

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Originally Posted by Fernosaur

Idk if this has been mentioned by anyone yet, but you mustn't consider the new DPS classes as just "DPS." Remember that, within DPS roles, there are both melee and ranged DPS, and the later are divided between physical and casters.
There hadn't been a melee DPS since the introduction of Ninja in 2.4, and there hadn't been a caster since the literal release of the game. This is almost three years of wait time for casters!

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We have 0 melee Healer since the beggining. Why this is not the priority ?
How many years should we wait to see this kind of job ?

No. That is just a band aid. What they need to do is makes those jobs fun to play and then balance them. You could add a dozen new tank/healer jobs and it wouldnt help anything. Maybe initially, but in the end people will default to what really want to do.

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

Yes, because if RDM isn't the jack of all trades then it isn't RDM to me therefore I won't like it most likely, and I never really cared for Samurai before so this game having it now isn't likely to change that much. If I had a new healer to try out, my experience as a healer for this new expansion could be that much richer, but yeah, it didn't happen. Anyways, Dancer please. :/

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Thank God its not jack of all trade. Did you play FFXI. Summoner = white mage, Red Mage = white mage , SCH = White mage.... Even once as bard I was asked to go brd/whm to help a farm group. The problem with jack of all trades in an MMO is that you don't get to play the way you want. Im glad its DPS, same with summoner. I don't have to be forced as a "Healer" class if I dont want to be.

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

Y'know, except for the fact the numbers last shown are 23% Healers, 21% tanks, and 55% DPS players. Please do tell where you pulled 80% out of your ass. By not adding a new tank and healer job, they've basically ignored close to 50% of their player base, and that 50% are people who play roles that are more in-demand than DPS by a longshot.

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I should have written "most player". I apologize you,re right.
It's odd because I'm usually the first to get mad a people shooting random values.
However, I have to somewhat disagree with you when you say "they ignore 50% of the player base".


Adding a new healer and tank doesn't mean they will appeal to only healer and tank.
For instance, I've always played DPS in every mmo and got curious with the astrologian which became my main job. So technically, the new healing job didn't really ignore me as I wasn't a healer and still moved to the new job. On the contrario, I know a few tank and healer who are very enthusiastic about the redmage and look forward maining the job and none of these already tank and healer actually enjoy the new HW jobs. (I don't know how you can prefer paladin to darkknight tho, but that's another topic)

RedMage and samurai are two job that people have been waiting for a longtime, and I don't believe that because the samurai doesn't tank and the redmage doesn't heal makes them less appealing to player already fulfilling these roles.

Personally, I'm looking forward the Time Mage. No matter which role I'll main in Stormblood, if they announce Time Mage for 5.0. I reroll (unless I really dont enjoy the gameplay)

I am disappointed about not having a new healer, it would have been nice to have either a Chemist or Dancer though I think I am more disappointing over their reasoning.