Mentor Players Kicking newer players from Duty Ques for low DPS

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

Whilst I agree with your sentiment group content with random people is not the place to ask for help on the basics... At lvl 60 anyway.

Questions on how to do things on bosses etc I've never seen anyone have a problem with, the only problems I come across are when people do not know the basics of their job. So questions are good and I doubt many people are gonna get kicked for asking one, but expecting random people going through the basics (mentor or not) is being entitled (not that I'm saying that's your stance).

Strangers are under no obligations to help anyone.

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Well no, but it's not about obligations. It's about self-interested investment in the community for indirect long term payoffs in the form of a generally more positive random group experience.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Well no, but it's not about obligations. It's about self-interested investment in the community for indirect long term payoffs in the form of a generally more positive random group experience.

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Hasn't this been going on for years though? Far as I cen tell people are just getting more annoyed.

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

Hasn't this been going on for years though? Far as I cen tell people are just getting more annoyed.

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I only just started frequenting the forums, so I really have no sense of the general experience over time or otherwise, just my own, which has generally involved friendly and helpful people and still generally involves helpful and friendly people. On occasion someone is cranky or unnecessarily antagonistic towards someone else in the group, but these things are isolated. I just hope it remains that way.

I wouldn't say "mentors" are kicking new players. That's a bit misleading don't you think? This sort of thing has happened since forever and it's not fair to attribute it to the mentorship status alone.

I'd say, ill-intentioned people are kicking newer players from dungeons and, is these specific cases, they happened to be mentors. So just follow with the standard procedure: report them. No need to feed this "all mentors are bad/elitist" stereotype anymore.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

If you equip a VIT ring (for tanks) ilvl 205 and achieving an average ilvl of 205, your real (role-related) ilvl is more close to 187 !!!

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Originally Posted by Llus

Min iLevel, while you can get away with tricking the system by wearing some pieces of gear at a much higher iLevel and having some gear at a much lower level; you are going to be hurting yourself and your teammates if all of your gear isn't the min iLevel for the dungeon. Your overall stats will be LOWER than the requirement for the dungeon

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

Also it doesnt matter that you have a few items 250. Yes you hit the ilvl, but when it syncs you down the 250 items are capped but your accessories are way under the cap. This means your damage is going to be massively reduced.
***Could be slightly worse or better as it was roughly done. I am sure some of you math kids could do it better :P

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

That's terrible. That's like being i155 in an i200 + Dungeon on top of missing other cross classed skills.

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Oh my gods can you stop with the misinformation? There is no item level sync in Sohr Khai and the OP was not undergeared for that dungeon. She would have been worse off stat wise in full 200 ilvl Aiming gear.

Explanation:

What the OP was wearing (iirc):

250 Teak Composite Bow HQ
150 Chimerical Felt Coif of Aiming NQ
250 Star Velvet Tabard of Aiming HQ
250 Hemiskin Gloves of Aiming HQ
230 Torrent Belt of Aiming
250 Hemiskin Trousers of Aiming HQ
250 Hemiskin Leggings of Aiming HQ
150 Chrysolite Earrings of Fending HQ
150 Citrine Choker of Aiming HQ
150 Chrysolite Bracelet of Fending HQ
150 Chrysolite Ring of Aiming HQ
150 Chrysolite Ring of Fending HQ

Stats: 776 dex, 867 vit, 383 crit, 168 det, 328 sks, 308 acc. Total secondaries 1187.


What someone in their minimum required (200 item level) gear could be wearing: Void Ark left side, Ardent right side, one Gordian ring and Antiquated Berimbau.

Stats: 720 dex, 524 vit, 326 crit, 260 det, 282 sks, 247 acc. Total secondaries 1115.


The OP had 56 dexterity, 343 vitality and 72 secondary stats more than someone who uses all 200 gear (+one 210 ring), and their weapon had more damage than a 200 ilvl bow would have. None of this gets scaled down because there is no item sync in that dungeon yet. Even though some items had the word "fending" on them she had more dps stats (dex+secondaries) than is minimally required and was therefore not undergeared for that dungeon. The effect of the weapon and left side gear is much bigger and so the OP was right to upgrade those first.

The gear was not optimal but it was adequate and in fact better than the minimum requirement stat-wise. What a mentor isn't supposed to do is get pissy and kick someone from an easy story dungeon for their gear when it's adequate. Just give tips on how to find some fast upgrades, or alternatively throw away the crown icon if you don't want to be helpful to new players. I don't know what her performance was like but going by the expectations here for everyone to overgear any dungeon it's likely that the mentor's expectations for dps were higher than is reasonable for that content.

On a more general note, I find it extremely funny that most people would consider expert dungeons to be faceroll easy even on the day they are out and beg from the devs for more difficult things to do, and yet so many in this thread go straight for the throat of someone who doesn't overgear a dungeon by a large margin. So are the level 60 dungeons difficult or not? Make up your mind.

Personally I have experimented with expert dungeons and healed Antitower in DF wearing nothing but a weapon and a robe while it was current content. My average item level was around 60-80 (yes double digit) and no one noticed/commented because it doesn't make a damn difference as long as your weapon is good.

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Originally Posted by Dement

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Would you accept someone who showed up in a level 60 dungeon without a neckpiece, earrings and missing 1 ring? Because using accessories which don't have your stats on them is only very very slightly better.
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I once healed an Aurum Vale where one of the dps went afk and got kicked and the replacement ninja only had on his weapon and accessories...

(-_-);

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

I wouldn't say "mentors" are kicking new players. That's a bit misleading don't you think? This sort of thing has happened since forever and it's not fair to attribute it to the mentorship status alone.

I'd say, ill-intentioned people are kicking newer players from dungeons and, is these specific cases, they happened to be mentors. So just follow with the standard procedure: report them. No need to feed this "all mentors are bad/elitist" stereotype anymore.

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But what else will the bandwagon hate on if not mentors?.

I mean... if it's a mentors job to help players with basic job rotations in lvl 60 content then shut up and take the advice! Far FAR too many times people are snippy little twits when given unsolicited help. So... we get real frikkin tired of telling drgs in lvl 50 - 60 content to use heavy thrust and have it ignored.
So we can tiptoe on eggshells adding even more time to the run.
Give you a tip and get yelled at
boot you or
Tell you to learn your class and leave it at that (knowing the majority WONT and force this onto the next group)
Lvl 60 isn't the place to learn the basics. DF isn't the place either. Learn on your OWN time like we did or don't be babies when we DO give you advice

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

Learn on your OWN time like we did or don't be babies when we DO give you advice

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Advice and guidance given in a negative way, regardless of how factual and correct it may be, is hardly ever well received. This goes for adults, as well as babies.

ilvl has surprisingly little impact on overall DPS.
If your DPS is noticeably low, it really doesn't matter who is bringing it up, mentor, non-mentor, novice, GM for all I care, it matters not. The important bit is it's brought to your attention. You can't improve if you aren't aware you're doing something wrong or inefficiently.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Advice and guidance given in a negative way, regardless of how factual and correct it may be, is hardly ever well received. This goes for adults, as well as babies.

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Ok so tiptoe on eggshells and still be yelled at... got it

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

Ok so tiptoe on eggshells and still be yelled at... got it

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And why exactly do you feel you are tiptoeing on eggshells?

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Advice and guidance given in a negative way, regardless of how factual and correct it may be, is hardly ever well received. This goes for adults, as well as babies.

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You ever tried giving any advice to many people in DF? I doubt it.

Advice just generally isn't take onboard no matter how it is presented so there is just no point doing it.

Feels like you are arguing with me

The majority of responses to POLITE UNSOLICITED advice in lvl 50 and 60 dungeons is either met with silence and ignored or with negative attitude. Thought i covered that.

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

You ever tried giving any advice to many people in DF? I doubt it.

Advice just generally isn't take onboard no matter how it is presented so there is just no point doing it.

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You doubt it because...reasons? I've given advice numerous times throughout my dungeons runs. If the person takes it great, it not then so be it, but it has never made me lash out at them negatively.

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

Feels like you are arguing with me

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Well this is a discussion board, so I would be discussing this with you.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

You doubt it because...reasons? I've given advice numerous times throughout my dungeons runs. If the person takes it great, it not then so be it, but it has never made me lash out at them negatively.

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I doubt it because of you're assumption the person you replied to only gives advice in an aggressive manner. Anyone who's given polite friendly advice is just as likely to be snapped at. So who really is the problem? The mentors or the people to yell at them just coz they are mentors? You tell me...

Same as your assumption now that if it's not taken on board people lash out... I would say it's more a dispondence like "well this is the billionth time now I'm just not gonna bother anymore".

Ex: a1s farm for light. 2 bards.... both putting their dots up then using straight shot. This goes on for 3 or 4 clears. I speak up. Direct quote: "hey i notice you guys both open with your dots before you use straight shot. Is there a reason for this?" " to piss off try hards" like... really??? If i was party leader id boot their ass. That's what we put up with.

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

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I made no such assumption. I made a statement about how advice given in a negative way is hardly well received in response to her comment about players being babies when given advice and walking on eggshells. Does she give advice in a negative way? Who knows, that wasn't the message I made. Then she responded about walking on eggshells and still being yelled at, which in return, I asked why she felt that way, apparently causing her to feel we were arguing.

Where did I make this assumption that if it isn't "taken on board people lash out"? (To be frank I'm not sure what you mean by "taken on board")

EDIT: Oh, I see now. You are referring to my statement about when a player doesn't take my advice. How is this an assumption? I'm stating that is has never made me lash out. That isn't an assumption, that is a fact about my actions in direct relation to players on these forum getting irritated when their advice goes unheeded and how they are handling it.

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

Ex: a1s farm for light. 2 bards.... both putting their dots up then using straight shot. This goes on for 3 or 4 clears. I speak up. Direct quote: "hey i notice you guys both open with your dots before you use straight shot. Is there a reason for this?" " to piss off try hards" like... really??? If i was party leader id boot their ass. That's what we put up with.

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You do realize there's an opener where you do exactly that though right?.

Well that's why i phrased my question that way. If there was a legitimate reason logic would dictate any normal person would respond with that reason. But nup... attitude. Im a bard and if there was a reason i would have loved to hear it.

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Originally Posted by Lone-wolfe-02

You do realize there's an opener where you do exactly that though right?.

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More for the sake of my own curiosity, why would you do that? Straight shot applies a buff that increases critical rate and when your DoTs crit, you get a bloodletter/ rain of death proc. Personally, I use the double Emp opener, so I'm curious as to the benefit of an opener like this.

Well, silly suggestion time, would anyone on Aether be willing to do some runs with the OP? Perhaps set up a cross server private PF with some seasoned bards to help them learn their rotation/gear up?

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Originally Posted by AnaviAnael

Well, silly suggestion time, would anyone on Aether be willing to do some runs with the OP? Perhaps set up a cross server private PF with some seasoned bards to help them learn their rotation/gear up?

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I'd run with if a meet up time could be worked out. Can run as a tank, healer or DPS, but I'm most confident in the healer role.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

More for the sake of my own curiosity, why would you do that? Straight shot applies a buff that increases critical rate and when your DoTs crit, you get a bloodletter/ rain of death proc.

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I don't know the exact reason, just an opener Rinchan nau theory crafted, it's done out of minuet where you double weave serveral buffs including pot+Internal release, you then use Minuet with straighter shot and iron jaws which snapshot all the buffs.

Basically to double weave easier.

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Originally Posted by Lone-wolfe-02

I don't know the exact reason, just an opener Rinchan nau theory crafted, it's done out of minuet where you double weave serveral buffs including pot+Internal release, you then use Minuet with straighter shot and iron jaws which snapshot all the buffs.

Basically to double weave easier.

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Oh, interesting. Will have to play around with it.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

What the OP was wearing (iirc):

250 Teak Composite Bow HQ
150 Chimerical Felt Coif of Aiming NQ
250 Star Velvet Tabard of Aiming HQ
250 Hemiskin Gloves of Aiming HQ
230 Torrent Belt of Aiming
250 Hemiskin Trousers of Aiming HQ
250 Hemiskin Leggings of Aiming HQ
150 Chrysolite Earrings of Fending HQ
150 Citrine Choker of Aiming HQ
150 Chrysolite Bracelet of Fending HQ
150 Chrysolite Ring of Aiming HQ
150 Chrysolite Ring of Fending HQ

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If you're DPS is low and other players see this gear on you, what do you expect them to do? Calculate your stats or kick you because you're undergeared and wearing the wrong gear for your job?

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Originally Posted by Lone-wolfe-02

But what else will the bandwagon hate on if not mentors?.

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Lalafells :)

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

I'd run with if a meet up time could be worked out. Can run as a tank, healer or DPS, but I'm most confident in the healer role.

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I'm better as DPS, but I'm not a bard expert.

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

Lalafells :)

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Where do i sign up? :D

After seeing this topic, I've really come to one conclusion.

The white knighting SJWs on this forum have really gone too far. Quite frankly, it'd be disheartening if it wasn't so infuriating.

In this topic, you have numerous people defending someone who is wearing multiple i150 fending accessories as a BRD and when criticized, pulls out the elitist label and the "I pay my sub" argument.

Is this really the level of play we find acceptable? Is this really the standard we are setting for this community? Is this type of one-sided coddling by yes-men the standard for discussion on this forum? And people wonder why more and more people are abandoning DF, PF, and the notion of helping others entirely. People wonder why the devs have made 90% of the content in this game face-roll difficulty. People wonder why they're dumbing down jobs, refusing to give us more interesting gear, and why the the game is getting increasingly bland.

Enabling this type of self-entitlement, lack of awareness, and communal consideration is infinitely more damaging to this game than kicking a new player from Sohr Khai because there was no discernible evidence they had a clue what they were doing.

When something is bad, you call it what it is. The first step to improving is recognizing what needs to be improved. You can't do that when the TC is blinded by self-entitlement and is enabled by a bunch of people blinded by their self-righteousness.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

I'd run with if a meet up time could be worked out. Can run as a tank, healer or DPS, but I'm most confident in the healer role.

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Same as far as running as anything.

When do you start caring about your DPS? When you're full i270 and melded perfectly? Why is i202 too low to actually pull numbers relative to your gear? You should care to optimize your DPS at all stages of gearing. Whether that's i5, or i270. It shouldn't matter if you're level 10 and in your first guildhest, or level 60, running A12S. You push out the DPS you can push. And no, "I'm new" is never an excuse. Every single player in this game was new. We all started in the same place, level 1. Some of us had prior MMO experience. Some didn't. I've played with guys who literally started playing MMOs in XIV, who had the drive to actually try to figure out their classes, and I've played with people on their 10th MMO who can't even spell DPS.

The point is, you TRY. Maybe you fail. You've got ample resources to figure out how to play. The fact that you're posting on the forums, that are filled to the brim with class guides says you can at least find information. Why should you be exempt from playing right? Because it's "My $15"? Why is your $15 more valuable than the $45 or $105 of your group? Spoilers: It's not. So research your class, and pull decent DPS. It's not hard. I main bard. It's a really freaking easy class to pull numbers on. We had to pull numbers in the first Alex wing in gear far less than what you're wearing. Just because there's higher tiers now doesn't change the fact you should at least try.

I mean we really need to classify what a new player is. At level 60 can you consider someone new? That is cap in fairness.

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Originally Posted by Freerider

I mean we really need to classify what a new player is. At level 60 can you consider someone new? That is cap in fairness.

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We can come expansion :P

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Oh my gods can you stop with the misinformation? There is no item level sync in Sohr Khai and the OP was not undergeared for that dungeon. She would have been worse off stat wise in full 200 ilvl Aiming gear.

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It might be my personal approach here but I dont care that much about the actual stats in a case like this in the end - I dont have time to calculate that in a dungeon anyways. By wearing the wrong type of gear - both stat and ilvl-wise (several pieces 50 ilvls below the requirement?) - they're showing a lack of care for their gear and by that a lack of care for their fellow teammates. Adding the attitude they showed in this thread - nope, nope, nope. You're part of a team and that requires you to come prepared - dont tell me that the OP calculated the stats on that gear and was like "Oh yeah, I'll get this lowlevel gear because its after all better than the ilvl200 stuff!"

Grats for no one noticing that you've been running dungeons naked, I guess (even though: with the amount of healing needed in this game, I'm not surprised - I've healed myself through the first two groups of neverreap when it was current content on my paladin because the healer dc'd) - I know its mostly about the weapon, but in this cases its also about your attitude. And if that is "I only care that I get to do MY stuff now" its unrespectful towards everyone else. You're part of a team, act like it.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Not to be one of those creepers dude, but, looked up your character on Lodestone. Your gear is "fine" (used loosely- should really upgrade your accessories too), however you really need to get your lancer up to 34. Blood for Blood for the DPS, but more importantly, you lack invigorate. You have no sustainable DPS, especially an AoE intensive dungeon like SAHM (when you get to it).

Basically, you failed to do your part as a DPS, but came here to complain. It's probably situations like this that are why SE is doing the whole role system instead of the cross class system.

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You mean especially like every single dungeon. You're expected to be able to AoE trash, I've kicked plenty of people for refusing to do that basic aspect of dps.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

We can come expansion :P

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Very true.

Not sure if this was asked before, since I stopped reading some pages before, so I'm sorry if it's a double.

How did OP know it was the mentor kicking?
You don't get to know who started the vote kick and if there were not 3 mentors in there you can't be sure at all it was "the" mentor who started the vote. o.O

Unless, of course, the person said "I will start a vote kick to get you out of here."...

I get annoyed at slow runs cause of DPS but why would anyone actually kick someone because of it? Just get through it and keep your commendation.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

I get annoyed at slow runs cause of DPS but why would anyone actually kick someone because of it? Just get through it and keep your commendation.

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Yeah but if there is a dps check and you can't beat it no com for you XD