And this is why I dont understand why people expect people to play pali like these other tanks, I mean flash wears off , and with you doing single target damage, I dont think its suited for big pulls as well, Pali is perfect on bosses and keeping hate on single targerts it will be my go to prob on extreme primals and raids , but I just honestly hate pullin with a paliQuote:
Originally Posted by Kaurie
i am not mass pull tank
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11-23-2016, 03:09 AMbswpayton
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11-23-2016, 03:17 AMChevronone::sniff:: ::sniff::Quote:
Originally Posted by NekoNova
I smell a power trippy elitist. I sup upon your mounds of salt. xoxo -
11-23-2016, 03:19 AMKaurieIt is still better to pull large groups with a Paladin, than it is to pull small groups with a Paladin. It's just simply better to pull large groups with a WAR/DRK, than it is with a PLD.Quote:
Originally Posted by bswpayton
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11-23-2016, 03:21 AMNekoNova....okay....Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevronone
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11-23-2016, 03:29 AMbswpaytonFor me with scorn on a 25 second cool down , I would much rather only pull 6 to 8 adds at a time with a pali I just dont feell effective even using my cool downs , I feel good about them on the extreme primals Ive done great defense on bosses , but I just dont like flash I have used it done my combos and just have seen adds just walk right past me .Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaurie
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11-23-2016, 03:30 AMKosmeI don't think it's a problem for most people who do that... I've left some "bad" groups before and purposely taken the penalty since I'd rather do something else, or just not play at all, as opposed to running in a frustrating group. As has been mentioned previously in this thread, the time itself doesn't matter as much as the fun I'm having within a that timeframe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosmos992k
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11-23-2016, 03:35 AMKaurie6-8 is fine, but really you should pull as many as you can survive with. Your DPS won't decrease, but won't increase all that much. The DPS in your group will benefit greatly - especially if you have a SMN.Quote:
Originally Posted by bswpayton
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11-23-2016, 04:25 AMSkaldir
Well, this is enlightening.
I am a pretty new tank. Well, new player in general. I went 34 Gladiator > 15 Pugilist > Marauder/Warrior (Now 41). I did not know how frustrating this was for
DPS/Healers.
My question is, though: If my gear isn't really up to par with the dungeons I'm tanking, what should I do? Do I mass pull and risk death, or should I pull in small
packs?
Also, how do I gear up if I'm not wanted? I assume I won't be wanted because of the small packs I have to pull. Will I be kicked for tanking like this? -
11-23-2016, 04:29 AMAlistaireThe game's to blame really. Tanks are punished much more heavily while levelling for gear being outdated than other roles. You might as well consider this a game in which you should not start off as a tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skaldir
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11-23-2016, 04:35 AMSkaldirI see. This is really discouraging.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alistaire
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11-23-2016, 04:35 AMSpookyGhostThis is called "personal DPS". However there's this other thing called "group DPS". While your pDPS will go down by pulling more (b/c slightly more Flash), the gDPS will go up (b/c more AOE from everyone). What this means is that regardless of tank choice, it's always better to pull big.Quote:
Originally Posted by bswpayton
e: Sorry maybe I've misunderstood this. CoS works on any mob hit, so the more you pull the more damage you'll get out of it. I thiiiink what you're saying is that Flash isn't enough to keep hate? Or you're missing targets? In which case this could either be a problem w/ your weapon or your aim, because Flash is pretty generous with what it hits. Your defensive CDs are also really effective on big pulls, Bulwark pretty much only shines on big trash pulls, Hallowed means you don't need to be healed, Rampart/Sentinel both give you flat reductions in damage, Awareness even gets use since you have a higher chance of being crit. It's mainly just about trying, and trying again, until you get it right.
You don't need to worry about pulling big until 50~60, and only with appropriate gear. If you don't feel comfortable doing big pulls 'til you're 60 w/ decent gear + wep no one will really hold it against you. But if you feel confident in pulling more as you level up then you'll have an easier time when you reach 60.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skaldir
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11-23-2016, 04:38 AMPaladinleeds
I've got ADHD myself (as well as autism, making communication a royal farce for me), have a decently geared paladin. Sure, I drop aggro every now and then, and I hate failure, but you don't have to worry, it isn't as difficult as you make it. If you explain you aren't comfortable doing mass pulls due to disability (this is what ADHD is classed as), most DF groups are very accomodating and will work with you. Don't let the constant "You must mass pull or you should uninstall and hang your head in shame and never touch a game again" badgering going on in this thread get you down, most people are much more forgiving than this forum makes you believe. That being said, work your way up slowly as some people have suggested, that was how I approached it and now I'm generally doing full scale pulls from blockade to blockade. You'll find you get the hang of it in time. Just don't beat yourself up over a mistake.
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11-23-2016, 04:52 AMLeowilde
I know there are some people who prefer to bash others for the slightest thing, and they tend to show in content thats either high level, or low level they've done too many times. But in my experience, they are the exception. For the most part, talking to the party and explaining would go well, I think. Although I almost never play as tank, so I wouldn't know first hand.
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11-23-2016, 05:18 AMvp_cmcWe mostly talking about doing expert roulette dungeons in 260+ gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skaldir
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11-23-2016, 05:30 AMEifahlwyn
Reading through more of these comments I must point out that the expectations of DF on these boards is a bit... skewed. Some people seem to think that every EX roulette should take 15 mins or less. Maybe they do if you happen to be a top tier DPS that can single handed carry the group but you are the exception and not the rule in DF. As someone who exclusively Tanks I must reiterate that the average random DPS (and Healer for that matter) in DF does not perform even close to their potential. Whether this is from apathy or lack of skill I can not say.
The point being is that I can fully relate with a Tank who does not want to pull large because most of the time it takes forever for mobs to die and it is added stress on both them and the Healer. If you happen to be a DPS/Healer that demands every EX run be super fast with massive pulls then I suggest you que with a Tank that you know. -
11-23-2016, 05:31 AMAlistaireI wasn't even referring to that. Defense levels early on matter a lot to a tank, and while on the flipside healing is braindead easy those levels, people like to take advantage of that and speed things up dps'ing. So if you end up with an undergeared tank that gets chunked for half his life every 3 seconds it slows down the run because the healer has to focus solely on keeping them up.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpookyGhost
The game also failed by allowing tanks to wear "Disciples of War" gear when there are times where that combined with underlevelled gear will make things very rough compared to how they should be. -
11-23-2016, 05:43 AMrevonineFrankly, pay no heed to the people bickering in this thread. If tanking is the role you enjoy then stick with it. While your still learning pull only as much as you are comfortable with until you are accustomed to your skills and how they work together. Most of all be honest with your parties. If you are unfamiliar with something or uncomfortable with it, speak to them. They will appreciate your sincerity and the fact your not being a mute. Unless of course they are just assholes anyway lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skaldir
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11-23-2016, 05:58 AMLineageRazorThis is one of the reasons why I think the current system is okay. You can set your own difficulty, pull as much as you think you can handle, and pull more once you feel like you're ready to push the envelope. That's one of the reasons Hullbreaker Hard was so loathesome - so many gates! Thankfully, it was balanced by Sohr Khai which optionally had some of the most challenging pulls I've seen in a long time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
Considering that these dungeons are meant to be farmed, practically from out of the gate, the ease of them makes sense. It DOES seem a bit silly to call them "Expert," though, to be sure!
Most of what we're talking about doesn't apply to leveling dungeons. At early levels, many DPS jobs don't even HAVE an effective area-of-effect DPS ability. In such cases, pulling huge groups is counterproductive, as the DPS aren't killing them much faster than if you pulled one pack at a time, and your healer has to work overtime to keep you alive, costing them the opportunity to add their own DPS to the fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skaldir
It's not until the level 50 dungeons that mass-pulling really becomes viable. By that stage, every job has an effective aoe, and generally that aoe gets MORE effective the more mobs you pull. For example, NIN's Death Blossom does 60 potency damage to every target hit. Against a single target, or even two, this is laughable damage. But with every enemy in range, you add 60 potency for every target. Against a group of ten mobs, that's 600 potency, far more total damage than any other attack the NIN could perform. And NIN's is far from considered to be the best aoe damage in the game.
At lower levels, just pull small groups. If you come across a group that specifically asks you to pull big, you can give it a shot - but for me, that has never happened in a leveling dungeon. -
11-23-2016, 05:58 AMNaunetThis is silly. A tank's job is to keep the attention of mobs so that they don't attack the dps or healer. The speed a tank pulls does not matter and it's DEFINITELY not comparable to a dps or healer afking at the beginning of a dungeon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojha
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11-23-2016, 06:01 AMWelsper59I can guarantee the majority do not care about the tank being undergeared. Most of us will not bother checking and assume anyone in Expert is Savage (or highest tier tome) geared, as far as expectations go on timing of the dungeon. The number of times I've seen bad healers and/or DPS (the overzealous bad type) tell undergeared tanks to pull everything in a party that lacks geared AoE DPS is insane.Quote:
Originally Posted by vp_cmc
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11-23-2016, 06:02 AMbounddreamer
"Hello, I have a disability. I would prefer to do small pulls if that's okay."
If I join an instance and see the tank saying this at the start, I will go out of my way to be friendly and helpful to you and make sure you have a good experience, whether I'm dps or healer. Even small pulls can be okay, because generally your dps will burn through those small pulls quickly, especially if they're not casters.
Offer it as an option, and most people will be completely fine with doing it your way. You don't have to tell them you have ADHD, you don't have to disclose any personal history, but give a little bit and others are willing to help you out too.
If someone is so annoyed by small pulls that they feel they have to leave, that's their option too. -
11-23-2016, 06:07 AMLunaFayeThat should be common courtesy and doesn't need an announcement. Not to be rude but if you can't be friendly and helpful because someone didn't announce their disability than there's something you should think about. I don't mind small pulls, as well as I don't mind speed runs. I think if I go as healer/dps I adapt to the pace of the tank, whatever that might be. If I wan't to have it run differently I will have to join on my tank and pray that we have enough dps to get it done in the time frame I've set as I joined the duty. But that's just my 2 cents.Quote:
Originally Posted by bounddreamer
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11-23-2016, 06:15 AMxbahax92
Simple answer... If you dont want to experience bad moments like others pulling mob groups or getting offensive towards you, you either accept that there are people who accept how you tank and some who give a shit about you and just want to speed run. Or the other option would be, avoid playing tank for certain roulettes/dungeons. And for raids, well.. I dont think someone is fit for Extreme primals or raids with ADHD. Simply, just enjoy the game and avoid content which needs certain player skill(if you cant bring it up) . Ignore or just close the chat for toxic players. Thats all I can say.
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11-23-2016, 06:24 AMFluffernuff
I legitimately want answers for this. I've been quoted a few times for those in agreeance or to focus on the other part of my post, but I legitimately want an answer to one thing, and I have yet to get it, so I'm just gonna ask again:
If the tank is responsible and borderline REQUIRED to do mass pulls...
...then why are tanks responsible for the SPEED at which the pull is completed?
Why are tanks responsible for the SPEED at which a mass pull is completed? -
11-23-2016, 06:24 AMbounddreamerIf someone does tiny pulls without saying something, I personally am not going to cause any trouble, but there are tons of people out there who would. As a tank main I've had plenty of times where a healer or dps decided I wasn't pulling enough and went and aggro'd something and brought it back to me. So unless a person speaks up about their circumstances and how they'd like to handle the instance, that sort of thing is very likely to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by LunaFaye
For me, someone doesn't need to justify why; if they say they want small pulls, I'll go with small pulls. But as already stated, the entire community doesn't behave that way.
"Common courtesy" isn't. -
11-23-2016, 06:51 AMKosmeI think no one's answered because no one's said it. That is, if by "completed" you're referring to the speed at which the mobs are killed. If it's been said then I've certainly missed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffernuff
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11-23-2016, 07:05 AMMihaelBThe tank is the pace setter of the dungeon, the healer is responsible for the party's life and the DPS realise the pace set (whether it's slower or quicker).Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffernuff
If your DPS is capable of quickly killing things, it is your responsibility to facilitate the conditions for them to do so, optimising your own ability and the entire party's to have a quicker dungeon.
This would be akin to a healer doing DPS while healing and DPS's utilising their support skills, it's part of the secondary known attributes that make you yourself a better player.
By all means, you can refuse to do that and just restrict your level of game play but that by no means, help anyone. -
11-23-2016, 07:18 AMFluffernuffNo one has asked it directly. only the fact that the very act ACT of a mass pull "make the dungeon go 5 minutes quicker." I'm asking how/why this is the case, and why is that figure is the Tank's responsibility to somehow uphold.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosme
Or to ask it in another way: if the size of the pulls alone somehow makes the dungeon faster and the only constant is the tank, then how does a tank make a mass pull faster?
which leads me to...
Indeed, which why the majority of us, including myself, will pull large packs on impulse. However, this also doesn't really answer how the TANK is responsible for how QUICKLY the pull is completed, only that they allow for any speed at all to even occur.Quote:
Originally Posted by MihaelB
I mean... I could be the WAR in a group of WAR/WHM/BRD/BLM, but if the BRD doesnt sing Foe's, the WHM doesn't Holy, and the BLM doesnt use Fire2, then how was my pull any faster?
I adjust to the pace my group set by pulling smaller since none of them want to AoE. now I'm being verbally assaulted because "I'm slowing everything down." That's really the crux of my confusion.
If my job is to manage to pulls, why is it also my responsibility to now complete them? I thought thats why there were 2 extra slots that needed filled. -
11-23-2016, 07:37 AMSigmar_Heldenhammer
If you aren't comfortable with large pulls, let the group know. If they don't like it, they can leave.
If you want to get more comfortable with it, get into a group with friends or FC that are willing to practice with you (no judgement, no bullshit).
For me, I've tanked in many games, I set the pace based on how good the rest of the group is.
If the first pull dies fast and healer doesn't need to heal at all, next pull it bigger, and so on.
In the end, for me, the size of pulls entirely depends on how comfortable my healer is with it.
Stick with it if you like tanking, god knows there aren't that many of us out there. -
11-23-2016, 07:43 AMKosmeYeah I'm still not seeing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffernuff
I think many posts have made it clear that it's a team effort, and not solely down to the tank. However, the process of having more efficient runs and saving time (which is kind of the theme this thread has morphed into) begins with how the tank pulls in the first place. Tanks have been focused in this thread due to the OP, a tank, pointing out their tanking style along with their reasoning behind it. There are plenty of threads all over these forums criticizing healers and DPS all the same. -
11-23-2016, 07:46 AMMihaelBCurious to who mentioned that? It's not your responsibility but the DPS's. Tank and healers aid the speed but are by no means responsible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffernuff
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11-23-2016, 07:47 AMKaurieAs a summoner, I will use dots + bane + painflare + blizzard 2+ shadowflare + deathflare and kill all the mobs at the same time, whether there are 3 mobs or more. Additionally, pulling 2 packs of a time has my timers on abilities like Aetherflow, Swiftcast and Tri-Disaster go up almost perfectly. So, if you want me to kill a group faster, and kill 9 mobs in that time instead of 3, then do the large pull. Otherwise, if you pull 1 group at a time, it will slow me down by over doubling the length.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffernuff
In other words, we can kill 4 packs of mobs within 2 full timers (or 2 pulls, 2 minutes), or we can kill 4 packs of mobs in just over 4 minutes (4 pulls). -
11-23-2016, 07:51 AMBourne_EndeavorExcept you really aren't. When I play Dragoon, mass pulls are incredibly mindless. I literally do nothing besides Heavy Thrust -> Ring of Thorn -> Doom Spike. Toss in my buffs and Dragonfire Dive if they're off cooldown and that's it. I have actually began ignoring mechanics in Xelphatol because I can health through them with just Second Wind and Bloodbath. It's no coincidence the current Anima step has us going back into Expert. I've experienced far slower queues this patch cycle than previous. And I strongly feel it's due to how easy dungeons have become. People just aren't doing them. Farming isn't a good excuse because that only encourages burnout. I've gone weeks barely touching my roulettes because I'm just flat out bored.Quote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor
For me, pushing the envelope is when I've actually progressed. If Experts hit hard on release, but by the end of the patch cycle or even the next patch, I could pull the room. That feels like an accomplishment because I couldn't do it before. Xelphatol? Day one: pull the room, aoe everything done. Six weeks later, I've had groups almost kill the Owl in GGH before he even summons Behemoth. I've even had a Scholar tank. That isn't setting a difficulty, at least not in my opinion. There just isn't one to begin with. -
11-23-2016, 09:00 AMbasketofseals
Out of everything in this thread, I'm most bothered by the OP blaming it on his ADHD. That's not how ADHD works.
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11-23-2016, 09:06 AMJas710
Tanks set the pace. Respect it. Period. Mass pulls is a plus - if the tank feels like doing it. If normal pulls tend to frustrate you because it seems "inefficient" or an "inconvenience", then by all means you are always free to drop group, switch to your tank, and go mass pull your own runs to make yourself happy. That is of course, if the tank hasn't already dropped to get away from your self-centered ass.
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11-23-2016, 09:19 AMFynlarWhy? So that they end up having to deal with another tank mass pulling things, ending up with the same problem?Quote:
Please consider swapping to DPS or healer.
This guy gets it.Quote:
If you're spending 30+ minutes in level 50 or 60 dungeons, the issue isn't the size of the packs the tank is pulling.
Pulling one group at a time, assuming your DPS is still competent, will only make your run about 2-3 minutes longer at most. I have still had very fast dungeon runs where I was pulling in this fashion.
If you're seeing more of a difference than that, that's not on the tank.
This tends to make more of a difference, too.Quote:
I am okay with small pulls, as long as the tank is moving quickly between pulls.
Another healer pitching in: if I see a SMN (or whoever) intentionally going out to do something like this I get a lot more enjoyment out of seeing them die than actually bothering to heal them.Quote:
Another summoner pitching in: it really is faster for me to pull and get spam-healed and blow out my deathflare and survive than go through slow and painful pulls. This is mostly in 60 dungeons however.
Funny, I get this problem far more from WARs than any other tank, surely because some of them just cling so tightly to their DPS stance.Quote:
9/10 times when I pull hate on half the mob in a dungeon, the tank is a Paladin. Every once in a while it's a WAR that wants to face pull a large pack in Deliverance so he can get the uber dps, but most of the "OMG don't attack until after I'm done pulling" comes from Paladins.
Almost every time I've pulled hate and died since 3.x and have had to say "tank, please tank" it's been a WAR.
Funny thing is, a few days ago I got chewed out (on PLD) by a BLM after a Xelphatol run because I didn't do countdowns before every boss and apparently I hurt his deeps as a result. Oh poor baby.Quote:
You must also have a count down macro you insist on using at every boss and probably fight over hate in Library of the Ancients. :3
You really can't win with some people. -
11-23-2016, 09:49 AMKosmeOr longer. You just can't and won't get from boss to boss as quickly when you only have buffs and other useful cooldowns available for half the mob packs, thanks to small pulls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
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11-23-2016, 09:52 AMalimdia
Single pull is definitely not 2-3 mins longer than big pull, cds just don't line up well and overall aoeing more stuff at once is much higher dps than single target combos.
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11-23-2016, 09:55 AMFynlarAgain, I've pulled dungeons like this, the difference is not as extreme as you think assuming a similar level of party damage output.Quote:
Or longer. You just can't and won't get from boss to boss as quickly when you only have buffs and other useful cooldowns available for half the mob packs, thanks to small pulls.
If the damage is good, it'll still be a fast dungeon. If it's not, it honestly doesn't matter as much whether I pull big or small (and if it's really bad, with a big pull it could end up to a wipe because the healer cannot outlast).
I have done both kinds of runs and seen the results firsthand with parties with competent DPS. Yes, that really is about how much difference it makes.Quote:
Single pull is definitely not 2-3 mins longer than big pull, cds just don't line up well and overall aoeing more stuff at once is much higher dps than single target combos.
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11-23-2016, 10:01 AMBloodyIt is entirely dependent on your group composition. If you have single-target specialists like the melee DPS, then yes the run will be similar. However, if you are rocking with a summoner or black mage and a bard, you are wasting soooo much more time by not doing mass pulls. Competent DPS always makes the run faster, but tailoring your pulls to the specialty of the group composition is also key for maximizing uptime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar