Normal took away 2/4 primary raiding rewards. Drive to uncover the story behind the raid and the look of raid gear is not unique. Furthermore, raiding providing the best gear in the game is also not part of the picture. So really, the mountain top of FFXIV's end game, alex savage, is only 1/4th as rewarding as mythic raiding in wow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alym
You don't think that is a problem?
This is a prime example of why no one wants to play this game. There is no reason to do content while it's relevant. You can take as many months off as you like, come back for a month, sweep up a bunch of now easy to obtain rewards and then unsub.
Unofficial Census 2016 for FFXIV
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08-19-2016, 10:23 AMzosia
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08-19-2016, 10:35 AMThayosThis game CAN still have a midcore endgame community, though. We just need more to do besides typical raiding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zosia
The desire is there. It's why so many of us were so frustrated with Diadem, and why Deep Dungeons generated so much buzz (even though it wasn't made to be endgame). This game has scores of players who want to dive in, but they don't want to swim in the raiding pool. -
08-19-2016, 10:39 AMMoomba33
I'm glad we got Alex normal. Never got past t9 during ARR and it sucked watching the scenes on youtube instead of with my character. Also glad we got unsync in Heavensward so I could finally go back and get those scenes in my journal.
To me the weakness of Alex was that it didn't have the buildup of Coil. Coil had the 1.0 finale/ARR opening building up Bahamut and the mystery of why he disappeared. Even unsync Final Coil was epic for me with those fights and that music.
Alex suddenly introduced a bunch of new characters and an enemy not shown to do anything (yes we're told he drains aether but we never see any impact).
The Goblins make it hard to take seriously but Gordias also didn't do much to play up their comedy with the fights just being robots.
Midas was a huge improvement in my opinion by playing up the comedy more. I had a lot of fun in all four Midas normal fights especially A5 and A8.
I don't care if SE gives Savage better loot or holds back story mode for a patch to give raiders more incentive but I sincerely hope we keep story mode moving forward.
More endgame content in general would be welcome. I'm all for adding relevant gear to PVP, revamped Diadem, future Palace of the Dead floors ect so everyone can choose a progression path they're interested in. -
08-19-2016, 10:39 AMzosiawhat? more diadem? more palace of the dead? more aquapolis? Sure, this game COULD have a midcore community, but it won't because the dev team only services the lowest common denominator of this game. Content will continue to be vanilla paste flops that fail at retaining players for more than a month.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thayos
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08-19-2016, 10:42 AMAlymNo, because, as a raider, the only thing I feel like I lost was a well-designed raid. I didn't lose that to Normal mode.Quote:
Originally Posted by zosia
As for Mythic in WoW, roughly the same percentage of of people that do savage do Mythic in WoW. Ultra hard content is not popular and when you try and make it the main portion of endgame progression, Alex happens. Normal was a great thing with excellent participation. Savage has low participation and killed raiding. Which was bad again? -
08-19-2016, 11:05 AMJynxLook I'm not even a raider and I know how normal mode effected savage mode.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alym
You can't just make mechanics and "Tone them down" or "Tune them up" for the savage/ normal encounters. They litteraly made the normal mode fights and then sat around the board room and said "How do we make this harder?" To allow for both to exist they need to cater to each as well that's how we seen in normal mode mechanics that meant next to nothing to the fight and then in Savage mode have the same thing with more stuff happening.
We get a nuetered experience in normal mode and a sub-par design for savage. I'd rather them focus like how it was with coil, story and all. I hate to say that everything should not be handed to players on a plater and we should need to work for some things. Coil was hard but fair, Alex Savage was...well it was Alex Savage.
Whatever helps you sleep at night. Just because they made the fights more complex by adding more types of puddles does not mean the entire design was not also effected by them considering how to make sure they could tone the mechanics/remove enough stuff to make the fights viable for normal mode in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alym
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08-19-2016, 11:10 AMAlymNormal mode was the only mode hurt by the existence of the other, then. The fights were clearly designed as Savage and tuned down. You can especially tell in A1 normal where the green puddles that are only a mechanic in Savage are visible for just a moment in Normal mode before disappearing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jynx
So, once again, Normal took nothing away from Savage.
How passive aggressive. If you had read the entire post, you would've noticed that I was saying Savage fights are designed and then tuned down to be the appropriate difficulty for Normal mode. This means that the only chopped up version is normal which indicates that Savage was not hurt by normal in this way. Thank you for allowing me to believe "whatever helps me sleep" though, I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jynx
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08-19-2016, 11:31 AMWhocareswhatmynameisyour right, it just took away all of what coil normal was.... coil normal was sacrificed for alexander story mode.... so now theres faceroll and savage with the "heroic" version not in the game anymore... the whole heavensward endgame is garbage and hopefully the devs are looking at their metrics and their censuses and adjusts fire for 4.0. This unofficial census probably isn't super accurate but I'm sure someone at SE is noticing all the players that aren't playing anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alym
The developers have the skill to make this a great game. They just need to balance out difficulty / reward scaling and actually reward people for playing the game. Instead of rewarding people for taking 6 months off and abusing shitty catchup mechanics. -
08-19-2016, 11:36 AMAlymI actually agree with this. I just believe that, if we can't have three difficulties of the raids or a more diverse endgame with BiS-tier rewards, Savage should now be sacrificed to give us a normal and an extreme mode. If normal and Coil-difficulty have much higher participation rates than Savage and Savage destroyed Heavensward endgame, it's obvious which one should be cut.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis
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08-19-2016, 11:37 AMCakekizyy
I think they have said they design it as uber difficult and tune it doen for normal and savage.
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08-19-2016, 11:46 AMLisotte
My entire FC raided in the Coil days, most players aren't that hardcore or driven or anything, but raiding as an FC immediately fell apart with Alex. The gear largely doesn't matter, but seeing the story in a timely fashion totally does. So for Coil, seeing the story alongside the community, and on the side, getting the best gear in the game, was a great motivation for people (not to mention the fights were challenging but tuned very well). With Alex the combination of being able to see the completely lacklustre story in a couple days via normal mode, and poor numbers balancing/poor fight design immediately killed off raiding for most of my FC.
Cosmetics, achievements, all the other fluff, can keep you going for a while for sure. However in my FC the only people actively playing much each day are mostly just those few still raiding. I've gotten bored with the game atm but at least raiding 3 nights a week keeps me logging in. -
08-19-2016, 12:11 PMJynxFirst: You need to fix your post as you quoted me twice but once outside the quotations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alym
Second: Neither of us know how they developed it besides what they said they did. You can take them for their word it doesn't make sense to me that's all I'm saying.
The fights were obviously not designed savage then toned down, the normal part of the raid has presence in all the design choices and it shows with how sloppy both sides of it feel to play. You don't have to believe me as I'm only stating my opinion and how it looks and feels to me. If they did design it savage then tone it down purely they need to get the guys who designed coil off of making cash shop suits and put them back onto encounter design.
The develops can make great content, they have before and I'm sure they will again. I'm calling them on their bad design choices, and I don't feel they have the good faith for me to take them at their word.
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Among everything else removing the story incentives, the gear prestige, the sense of accomplishment was neutered by these choices. It's the everyone gets a gold star mentality that is driving more serious players away from the game and the lack of long term goals and high milestones to reach for are making casual and midcore players lose interest as well.
Take it with a grain of salt as this is only my opinion, but it shows in what little community we have left.
Oh my how... "Passive agressive" ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Alym
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08-19-2016, 01:35 PMAlymA couple of points: First, you said you're not a raider, so I'm not sure you can comment on how Savage feels; that's not meant to be elitism, just fact. As someone who has played plenty of Normal and Savage, it feels to me that Savage was terribly designed and then Normal was the result of terribly designed fights with pieces ripped from them. That doesn't make Normal the problem to me. That makes Savage the problem. Second, your argument has been, "I'm not a raider but even I know Savage was ruined so they could design fights that they can tune to a lower difficulty for Normal mode. Sure, SE claimed Savage Second Coil was the fights how they were originally designed and Coil was the toned down version of those, but we can't believe their lies about Savage being how they design fights. Sure you can literally see the mechanics in Normal Alex that were cut from the Savage Alex fights in graphical glitches, but I know better. I know they designed these fights for Normal mode, but we don't know for sure how they designed them so you must be wrong. As someone who doesn't raid, I feel it was obvious Savage fights were ruined by Normal mode." I could respond with my own feelings, as I've clearly laid out before, but your argument hinges on SE lying and experience that you don't have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jynx
You can't with one hand say that we don't know how they design fights so I must be wrong and then on the other say you're right because they obviously design fights a certain way. Both things can't be true.
It's impossible to have a well-reasoned argument with someone who feels the developers lie about their own content. That sort of accusation allows you to discredit anything they say or do to meet your own ends. Their word is the best proof we have and, coupled with comparisons between the fights in Normal and Savage, it makes perfect sense. I guess I'll just have to leave it that. There is no sense in continuing this circular argument.
I hope you have a great day! -
08-19-2016, 03:46 PMTripPsyc
While people are debating Alex normal vs savage effect on the raiding community I noticed this topic has not been discussed in regards to previous coil runners not running Alex Savage. First I can only speak from my experience and those I know, a major of players I know and talk too, self included, do not run savage because of the nature of the statics and the unfriendly attitudes of the current raiding community. I can say hands down that while coil was happening people in general seemed not just more friendly but more inviting to learning and raids in general. While you might agree or disagree with that observation, to new players coming into this game or simply old players raiding new, think how this would drive them away from it, but asking for a change in the community attitude, will probably just add more attitude....
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08-19-2016, 05:40 PMTaranTatsuuchiJust a correction here, FFXIV is actually a themepark MMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by zosia
Just because it has non raid activities doesn't mean it's a sandbox, or not a themepark.
A themepark MMO is one that takes you on developer designed experiences, MSQ, raids, etc.
A sandbox MMO, at its core, is a game designed in a way that the devs do not provide game experiences, they just provide tools and systems that allow the players to create the game experiences with their interactions. -
08-19-2016, 06:16 PMCakekizyyWould you consider EQ a sandbox or themepark?Quote:
Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi
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08-19-2016, 06:21 PMArchaell
Savage is a lot of hard work with low rewards, no wonder people aren't eager to do it.
I would like to see a little social experiment. How much would the raiding population change were all the weekly restrictions removed? Making the savage the only place where you could gear up in the best ilvl for several patches, and allowing players the freedom of movement between the groups.
Right now the amount of raid time we have depends on other 7 people in the static - if someone clears it with a different group the static gets punished and you probably kicked. I don't think this is helping the clear rates and overall appeal of the hard content. There are times when I have nothing better to do, I could be helping people with clears, but nope, the raid day is the next day so you can't touch it today... this is seriously annoying, because it discourages the raiding community to help the newbies. -
08-19-2016, 07:02 PMDuelleI'd suggest the opposite. Create normal modes tuned for 8-man groups and 24-man groups. Even if tuned similarly, a 24-man group has a higher chance of recovery (thus allowing more room for error) and allows for more people in a guild to run content. Back when I raided our 25-man groups always rotated people who weren't cutting edge but could follow directions. It also allowed our guild to befriend other guilds because we sometimes needed extra bodies, and our leaders would sometimes talk to friendlies and ask if anyone hadn't been able to raid that week.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaell
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08-19-2016, 07:21 PMReinhaFlexible rewards could help. Flexible group sizes would also help, I believe. I don't think that would be an easy thing to code in this game though. But it's pretty clear to me that when the average player becomes older he/she gets more responsibilities and the raiding having a strict schedule and depending on every team member showing up just doesn't fit the picture. If people were allowed any number between 8 and 16 to participate in the scaling boss fight, teams would not need to have a "bench" and could continue to recruit past 8 raiders to ensure progress even when someone has IRL business. The rewards could scale like they do in WoW; every light party (4 people) ensures a chest and extra people would bring an additive 25% chance to get another chest. An 11 person team would mean two chests and a 75% chance for a 3rd one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaell
Another issue with a small static group size is that compositions become very strict. You need 2 tanks, 2 healers, 1 support, and other dps for good ST and good AoE. What if your fc is building a static and they already have SCH, AST, BRD, SMN? Good luck joining as anything other than a tank or melee. Some players do not enjoy more than 1 or 2 jobs or roles and this might deter a lot of people from playing with people they are familiar with in game, like their fc. I can only speak for myself but if it comes down to raiding with strangers or not raiding at all, I'll choose the latter every time. -
08-19-2016, 07:21 PMBrian_
Normal mode is a massive mistake. Level 5's CEO was right in pointing it out to Yoshida.
First off, it kills off a lot of the hype and anticipation behind the story and big reveals. I can only imagine how anticlimactic it would've been to defeat Nael van Darnus, Louisoix, or Bahamut if all it took was 10 minutes with maybe a single wipe. These enemies are supposed to be a threat to the realm. They should feel more substantial to defeat.
Second, putting the gear, even if it can't be dyed, into normal mode does two things. It takes away unique glamours from raiders that they could show as a badge of honor. And, it's horrible for gear progression. They already have catch-up gear in odd patches. They don't need an additional gear reset on an even patch. As is, unlocking WCoM / downgrading lore / putting Midas Savage into DF in 3.4 will be pointless because you can just get higher ilevel gear from Alex normal. This led to complaints about needing to farm normal for gear needed for Savage progression. In response, SE added crafted DoW/M gear on par or better than normal gear which further invalidated old gear. Before, the gear you had from an older patch mattered. As such, doing that content mattered. Now, after you clear A8S, nothing matters. If early prog is your goal, you're just going to buy a full set of crafted gear and pick up a few pieces of normal gear that might be better. All that gear from Midas Savage? worthless. Weeks and sometimes months of prog for nothing. That's what normal took away from savage.
Next, normal killed the mid-core difficulty. When you can just toss your investment on the story, aesthetics, and fight design into a casual mode, you no longer have to care about keeping your hardest content reasonably accessible. You can make it all about the challenge just like SCoB Savage. If normal didn't exist, they would be forced to tune Savage for a lower bar or risk having their investment of resources wasted when only a tiny portion of their player-base can experience it.
So, when you combine a sharp spike in difficulty with irrelevant rewards (no story, no unique fights, no relevant gear), of course you're going to see a big decline in your raiding population. And, when you kill off a person's desire to do content with a higher skill-cap, you also make it more common and acceptable for people to not care about their skill. When the skill cap of the content you do is Alexander NM and maybe an EX trial, is it surprising that so many people don't know how to play their roles? It should be expected.
But, what's the most damning loss with the decline of raiding is the loss of its social aspect. The friends I made raiding are the people who keep me playing this game. I don't play this game for the effectively nameless DF randoms I met during Alexander NM. I play the game because of the bonds formed during weeks of progression, the moments of laughter and levity amidst the frustration and disappointment, the outburst of triumph after finally overcoming an obstacle, and the calm after the storm when we can bask in our reward together. -
08-19-2016, 07:50 PMKarstenSThe difference is: With coil we had no gear reset at the start of a new tier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alym
The normal mode right at the start did its part to destroy the atmosphere of the raid. For Alexander Savage you had to do the normal mode to unlock it. You had to farm it for gear. It destroyed the entire feeling of an exploration. An then you enter Savage. There is not much new. No surprises. You already knew nearly everything. No exploration.Quote:
Alex Savage is not fun, but it's not because Alex Normal exists, in my opinion.
There is still the challange. But I miss the other stuff really hard. And BTW: The exclusive glamour too. The normal mode should not hand out the same glamour as Savage. PvP players have their exclusive glamour, so why not for Savage? -
08-19-2016, 08:25 PMKarstenSThey are. Do A8 Savage and you will see. Only in this fight you can understand what the little text bubbles of the robots do really want to tell you. In every other fight, including A8 normal, they are out of context.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jynx
And BTW: The biggest fail with heavensward was it to make pets, mounts, titles and crafting mats available when running unsync. Especially for SCoB Savae I can't facepalm enough. -
08-19-2016, 08:26 PMCakekizyyOther people getting something easier doesn't impact you. Exclusivity is not a virtue.Quote:
Originally Posted by KarstenS
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08-19-2016, 08:31 PMVantolYes, it does. That's the whole point of this and many many other threads. It's the 2nd biggest problem of this game (1st being stats).Quote:
Other people getting something easier doesn't impact you.
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08-19-2016, 08:34 PMSanghelios
I agree that the normal difficulty raid we have now actually destroys the atmosphere. Actually i would it do like this:
3.0 Raid A (Savage) i210 dyeable
3.1 Raid A (Normal) i200 non-dyeable
3.2 Raid B (Savage) i240 dyable
3.3 Raid B (Normal) i230 non-dyeable
3.4 Raid C (Savage) i270 dyeable
3.5 Raid C (Normal) i260 non-dyeable
This would be, in my opinion, the optimal way for raiding without major changes. The reason for normal mode was that casuals can enjoy the storyline ect, and following this way, they still can do it, just a bit later and raiders would still have their savage raid without destroying the atmosphere beforehand. Rewards for normal mode would have to be adjusted. I think 10 ilvls lower than the savage counterpart and non-dyeable should be fine since its 3 months later. -
08-19-2016, 08:37 PMZojhaObjectively...no it doesn't, unless the thing in question has limited supply and thus, taking something away on one end means it's missing on the other. That's not the case for digital items.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vantol
Subjectively...some people consider it sexual oppression when words have a grammatical gender assigned. I suppose yes, it does impact people subjectively. -
08-19-2016, 08:44 PMVantolI already explained it. Let's say I spend 20 years of my life working hard 24/7 to buy a plane. Now I have plane, get fame, girls, ride friends, tell stories and have fun with it. And next morning goverment decides to give free plane to every person. So in the end I just wasted 20 years of my life for nothing while everyone was spending this time with families, beloved ones, doing fun stuff and enjoing life. Of course that is not fair and I will be mad.Quote:
Objectively...no it doesn't, unless the thing in question has limited supply and thus, taking something away on one end means it's missing on the other. That's not the case for digital items.
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08-19-2016, 08:46 PMaesteval*ponders* A flaw with every player being the warrior of light and leaving no room for supporting roles? What if we all WEREN'T the world's "only hope." What if the normal mode was the challenge and the minstrel's ballad was the easier story mode to share the tale that becomes accessible as legend spreads. Could community incentive be designed around only making story mode available after server first clear (and maybe a later patch as a last ditch time based release.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
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08-19-2016, 08:50 PMaesteval...set it up so that the server first player names are part of the story / legend as part of the story line leading up to normal mode? That could be some incentive?Quote:
Originally Posted by aesteval
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08-19-2016, 08:59 PMMihaelBOr copy SAO and slap the first server clears, perhaps 1-10th groups on a stone somewhere :DQuote:
Originally Posted by aesteval
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08-19-2016, 09:18 PMaestevalGear wise the challenge mode would be the top gear for a time periodQuote:
Originally Posted by aesteval
Story mode would be lower powered
There would be a "catch up" period that acquire gear inbetween the two tiers to allow preparation for the next challenge. The previous top reward would still be best to start the next challenge in, but the catch up gear would be close enough to be relevant and good enough for a competent player while not destroying the value of the previous challenge's rewards
Ie using current ilvls as guidelines:
challenge mode ilvl 245
Story gear 220 - 230 range
Catch up 235 - 240 range
The could also spread out the rate of gear growth to be something a little slower. -
08-19-2016, 09:42 PMZojhaOh, it's not and you can be miffed about it - But if the plane is so easy to procure that everyone can just easily get one, it shouldn't have been gated behind 20 years of work in the first place, so it's merely correcting a mistake that you were the victim of. And if you suddenly enjoy the plane less than prior, it just means that you didn't want the plane in the first place, you just wanted some ego stroking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vantol
And always remember: Whenever you use a bicycle, car or other means of transportation, remember that your forefathers had to work hard to go from A to B by foot. Whenever you buy something in a local store, remember that your forefathers had to work hard and risk life and limb for their food. Whenever you buy medicine, remember that your forefathers had to work hard fighting the sickness with their body alone. And remember that there are places in the world that are less developed where this is still the case and that by having a higher standard of living, you are diminishing their achievements.
A dreadful thought, no? -
08-19-2016, 09:48 PMTaranTatsuuchiUnfortunatly, I do now know enough about everquest to even try to make the distinction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cakekizyy
It was before my time of available time/funds to actually get into the MMO genre. -
08-19-2016, 10:04 PMTolmosEverquest is THE themepark MMO. It basically defined the entire sub-genre. While there were other online multiplayer games before these two, Everquest (Themepark) and Ultima (Sandbox) are basically the parentage that pretty much every MMO for the next decade followed the footsteps of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cakekizyy
I, personally, was an ultima/sandbox fan. I didn't really start enjoying Themeparks until Vanilla WoW and Final Fantasy XI released. -
08-19-2016, 10:09 PMVantolIn this context you are supposed to get all items in game the instant you log in, because they are "easy to produce". Anyway, the point is, everything in this game gets nerfed because echo, unsync, ilvl. Why should I work hard and play every day, when I can just pay 1 month per year and accomplish same things that other person that was in game 5 hour/day every day for past year? That's the main reason ppl stop playing. Not because they don't like the game, but because they can leave game for months and lose nothing.Quote:
But if the plane is so easy to procure that everyone can just easily get one, it shouldn't have been gated behind 20 years of work in the first place, so it's merely correcting a mistake that you were the victim of.
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08-19-2016, 10:16 PMTolmos
I never really understood the mentality of people getting upset that someone else got what I achieved but easier in a video game. The "work" I did to achieve my items was me PLAYING the game and enjoying myself; if I wasn't enjoying myself then the flaw was mine. So if, down the road, they reduce the requirement for that thing, I see no problem. I had fun and got my reward, and I do not define my personal worth by that in game achievement... So I fail to see its impact on me.
That's my personal view on it, anyhow -
08-19-2016, 10:28 PMWhocareswhatmynameisFor most people it makes them not want to bother if in 2 patches the thing they spent a bunch of time on is just given away in a cash shop or w/e. If your the one that spent 1M MGP on a fenrir mount, then the devs turn around 2 months later and lower the cost to 100K, you might feel a bit differently. Chances are the next mount they put in the gold saucer for 1M, you wouldn't want to actually participate in getting it. That's the problem people are having.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tolmos
Anyone that farmed red scrips in patches 3.0 - 3.3 probably know this feeling very well. When the gear they earned was given away for blue scrips. You start to ask yourself 2 questions... why did i bother doing that? and why would i want to do it again? -
08-19-2016, 10:35 PMMihaelBI don't understand either, especially with that example. I invested 50mil into red scrip gear at the time when it was relevant to produce goods worth 150mil in profits in return.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis
I upgrade my gear now to do content relevant now. I understand it won't be relevant in maybe even a week because possibly they'll allow something in the game that completely wrecks my current gear but at least I'm enjoying it now.
If I just wanted to be 'efficient' with no satisfaction in doing content in relevance, I would quit a year and do 1 minute runs of everything but personally for me, there's no enjoyment in that. -
08-19-2016, 10:36 PMSangheliosThats well spoken. Actually same for ponys. I did farm them when drop rates were low, just to see them raining down from heaven a while after. Now in this patch circle, i did only farm one bird and cba to farm all the others again, because i know its super pointless as square will do the same as they did with pony droprates. Same goes for literally every other content, let it be scripts or whatever. I like this game, but those things are really annoying after you did it once and i can see myself leaving this game one day just because of those points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis
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08-19-2016, 10:39 PMTolmosI've experienced this situation multiple times across various MMOs, I just never really experienced the emotional response that others seem to describe. I usually think "good for them" and move on, because I'm working on the next thing. I'm not getting these rewards to become a special snowflake; I'm getting them because I want the rewards, and enjoy playing the game. It's a double win for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis
Maybe it's just a personal thing, but I get some enjoyment out of other people getting to have things they want as well, rather than getting upset by it. How I attained the rewards, and how they attained it, is entirely irrelevant to me.