Please Add no bonus option for PF

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Originally Posted by Divine_Intervention

I've made my opinion clear on this topic, other people have made theirs clear. I'm for and against it, but i'm not going to use anymore of my daily post limit on this topic xD . Take care o/

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And I respect your opinion. Im not here to force people to my opinion.

And I agree the post limit is a highly stupid thing on these forums.

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Originally Posted by Singularity

I dispute statistic, assertions...

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The context you're using to dispute the points is valid. But I don't think it's a fair representation of the issue.

I agree with what you say about the majority of users on the whole.

But what we're talking is an issue that stems from people being dishonest about their abilities and sneaking into PFs without heeding the descriptions.

It's my contention that the number of people who do this are already a small minority of the whole population.

Like this:

Some PFs exist without issue.
Some PFs have a dishonesty-problem.
Of the PFs that have a dishonesty-problem, it's usually only 1 dink who's trying to sneak in.

Do you dispute this data?

This data would suggest that the number of dishonest people trying to sneak into PFs is about 10% of the population. (1 in 8 is 12.5 %)

The majority points you use to disregard my statements doesn't seem to take this into account.

What you need to do is look at the people who are dishonest (10% or so of the population) and then see how many of those would be prevented from entering a no-bonus PF. Keep in mind, that a dishonest person can still get an eventual clear and still be dishonest and join your no-bonus blocked PF eventually anyway. Since even a lucky clear is "inevitable" this no-bonus PF block mathematically does nothing except delay the issue by a few days until the dishonest person can get a clear and sneak in anyway.

It's a waste of time.

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Originally Posted by Divine_Intervention

Is an option to automatically block someone with bonus viable - probably, but will add to the already toxic community feeling.

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I would actually expect this to reduce the toxic community feeling. Consider how it is now: Farm group is made, bonus player sneaks in, eventually the instance starts and the bonus message comes up. The party often at this point starts a witch hunt for the bonus, creating an air of suspicion. If the player is found out, he/she is kicked and possibly blacklisted, earning the ire of up to seven other people (plus however many others they may tell), while the bonus player feels hurt and possibly humiliated. If the player is not found out, the group may simply disband and start over, generating resentment among everyone present.
On the other hand, with a filter, the bonus player never joins at all, the others never meet him/her. No witch hunt and no blacklisting.

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Originally Posted by Launched

It makes a big difference if it stops just one person that hasn't cleared the fight from joining and wasting your time trying to figure out who it is.

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It also makes a big different if it blocks just one person who would have been an amazing asset to your team from joining up.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

And I agree the post limit is a highly stupid thing on these forums.

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There's a post limit?

*screws self*

Ha ha...

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Originally Posted by Singularity

I would actually expect this to reduce the toxic community feeling.

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You also missed the part where this would stop players expecting to clear through farm parties and we would see more learning and clear parties crop up. In an ideal world this would create a bigger pool of players who can't clear, and they can work together to get the clear.

One potential issue I see (which SE for the love of god, don't design a system like this, it's dumb), is if the option is available to people who haven't cleared, i.e. a person can make a clear party and only make it so you can join if you have beaten the content. This needs to be accessible only if the party leader has themselves cleared.

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Originally Posted by Cold_Raven

It also makes a big different if it blocks just one person who would have been an amazing asset to your team from joining up.

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Except as soon as the party sees a bonus message, they'd leave the instance and kick that person anyway, then have to put the PF back up and hope the next person to join doesn't do the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Divine_Intervention

I've made my opinion clear on this topic, other people have made theirs clear. I'm for and against it, but i'm not going to use anymore of my daily post limit on this topic xD . Take care o/

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Can I pose this to you. I understand that you feel that this will make the community more toxic. But I think this is a knee jerk reaction.

Is it not the people who sneak in whos actions create toxicity? People do not like seeing the bonus in a farm because they understand what it means, in a farm you know all the mechanics (or at least you are supposed to) from constant trial and error wiping until you have it memorized. They have seen the wipes and wipes that come with clearing and getting to the farming stage. So when someone sneaks in for a clear, it is a dirty play and will justify a reaction.

This is what creates the toxicity towards bonus players in farms. If you remove the option for it to be created, you alleviate the problem.

An added bonus is that it may help spurr people into actually using PF to create thier own parties, giving more life to PF.

People always seem to think that this suggestion is barring people from content, and we need to get past this concept that they can't use PF to create their own groups. I'm currently struggling with sephex since I don't have a static, and I turn down all suggestion that we ditch my progression party for that farm one two slots down PF.

This has probably been mentioned previously in this topic but I'm too lazy to read atm. So.

I would be in favor of this, to be honest. If people aren't in the mood to teach or are going to be assholes to people without a clear regardless of their experience, may as well let those people have their own little club and let the more newbie-friendly crowd be the ones to accept those who haven't yet cleared. At the same time, this isn't going to suddenly make every "no bonus" party effective farm (or even single clear) parties. I cannot begin to TELL you how many "no bonus" parties I have joined in the past, some even for OUTDATED content, with people whom I begin to question how they even cleared Sastasha NM. It's sad really. I just got my SephEX clear last night with a static (third night's a charm \o/ ), so I haven't tried the PF farm groups yet... and am not sure if I will, simply because I don't want to deal with the frustration of PF. I might for the practice though and see how it goes...

So yeah. This system would have both its benefits and its drawbacks.

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Originally Posted by Divine_Intervention

Used duty finder for content you can't go into via duty finder? cool.

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There is a such thing as not clearing content as soon as it is released and then learning and clearing it later on in Duty Finder. I haven't even attempted a serious run of Thordan Ex yet. Keep trying to make invalid points against me though.

Nobody said all players with a bonus are a hindrance. But some are. All this is doing is stopping that from happening. If they want to join the group they can still /tell the leader and say they're new. There's no issue here other than you trying to create one.

So it seems people have had a lot of PF issues, so my suggestion is after pfing things for a while take note of the good players and create a LS to farm content and then PF when you feel like helping. I join PFs to help and I create them to teach, I typically farm content with friends. Make friends grow the community. :)

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Originally Posted by Divine_Intervention

when in fact many people with bonus tend to know the fight a lot better (due to spending hours and many parties practicing intrinsic details of the fight).

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In this thread, we learn that people that have cleared the fight haven't actually practiced it as much as people that haven't? :confused:

This argument makes no sense. Once you've cleared, every single clear after that is further practice at those "intrinsic details of the fight." Every clear builds muscle memory, and every clear has the potential to reveal new little tricks and ways to handle mechanics and potentially salvage botched runs (cause hey we're all human and we all screw up even once we have something on farm). Are there people that get their one clear and then stop? I'm sure there are a few. But to say someone that hasn't cleared the fight potentially knows it better than someone that has it on farm doesn't exactly ring true to me. I know it took several clears for me to really get it down pat as far as the order of mechanics to where I'm not going "ok, what's next?"

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TL;DR - Bonus does not equal skill-less, no bonus does not = totally competent.

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Nobody is saying it does. I'm not sure how many more times we have to reiterate that. Yes, there are incompetent players that were carried to their clear and there are competent players that just can't get the right party together. Those are a minority, though. Generally speaking, someone that's cleared the fight is simply more prepared to farm it than someone that hasn't. The filter we're asking for is meant for that majority, but nothing can cover every eventuality. Players that are in the non-cleared but skilled category would still be free to either send tells to party leaders asking if they can join, or make their own learning/clear parties.

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Originally Posted by Cold_Raven

It's my contention that the number of people who do this are already a small minority of the whole population.

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I agree here. I don't have data but I don't think this community is so rotten that a large proportion of players try to get their clears by exploiting others.

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Originally Posted by Cold_Raven

Some PFs exist without issue.
Some PFs have a dishonesty-problem.
Of the PFs that have a dishonesty-problem, it's usually only 1 dink who's trying to sneak in.

Do you dispute this data?

This data would suggest that the number of dishonest people trying to sneak into PFs is about 10% of the population. (1 in 8 is 12.5 %)

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The logical statements are valid and I agree with them, the 10% statistic however does not follow. It relies on the additional assumptions that 100% of the population uses PF and that the people trying to sneak into farm parties are all different people. One person can potentially ruin many PF groups trying to steal a clear. In any case, the proportion of the entire population that is trying to obtain clears they don't deserve is almost certainly less than 10%.

However, when evaluating a potential change, one must consider the effort required as well as the potential impact. If this option would take a month to implement, I would say definitely not - it's not worth the time. If it would take a week, I'd want to spend an hour or two getting really good estimates of how much good it would do before deciding. But this is the sort of thing that I would expect can probably (code architecture permitting) be done by a single developer in less than a day (indeed, we've already spent longer discussing it than it would take to implement). I would contend therefore, that it is worth the time even if it only affects a minority of PF groups.

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Originally Posted by Cold_Raven

Keep in mind, that a dishonest person can still get an eventual clear and still be dishonest and join your no-bonus blocked PF eventually anyway. Since even a lucky clear is "inevitable" this no-bonus PF block mathematically does nothing except delay the issue by a few days until the dishonest person can get a clear and sneak in anyway.

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How are they getting that eventual clear though? Perhaps they get carried by friends or buy a clear from a sale group. Both those options exist now though, but not every dishonest player has access to them (either don't have friends that are able to carry or can't afford sale groups' prices). These dishonest players that can't use one of the other paths would be effectively stymied. As a result, some of the dishonest players that currently sneak into farm groups (in fact I would argue most since groups that can carry current content are rare) would be completely prevented from doing so, and that is an improvement worth having.

I just blacklist people who do this honestly. I have no issue letting them in if they are honest but dishonesty is not something I will reward in any situation. I think really all this suggestion would do is force people to ask if they can join before attempting to do it dishonestly.

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Originally Posted by Cold_Raven

It also makes a big different if it blocks just one person who would have been an amazing asset to your team from joining up.

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Stop everything you're saying and think about what I'm about to ask you very carefully.

Why would a person who hasn't cleared join a FARM party?

By definition, someone who has something on farm has cleared multiple times. If you don't have a clear, you literally don't meet the requirements for a farming party.

Furthermore, you and all of your ilk have yet to answer why these oh so skilled players can't make their own parties for clearing

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

Furthermore, you and all of your ilk have yet to answer why these oh so skilled players can't make their own parties for clearing

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Oh they have, they just keep saying that sometimes it takes to long to form parties. As if those with a clear all logged on to be magically in parties.

I'm failing to understand how is there still opposition towards this o_x Its pretty much as Aquaslash said: why would someone who hasn't cleared join a party that's there to farm? and or what is stopping them from making their own parties? The option for no bonus isn't going to stop them from making their own parties or using DF (and yes EX primals can be cleared with DF; have done it myself at least with those before HW, Im not that far ahead) and as Andrea said, if the issue is just that it takes long to form a party---well it---really just takes a while overall to form a party. Not everyone feels like farming, not everyone feels like clearing, not everyone feels like learning---so in all those aspects it can and might take a bit to get your party going but for that you just need patience and time. It is still no valid excuse to jump into a farm party and lie when it states 'no bonus' or not just sending a tell to the PF leader if you know the fight @__@;

One thing that amuses me is you see learning parties, where you get the impatient guys that will rage quit after 10-15 minutes or 2-3 wipes.
you see clear parties, where people have come close to beating the fight. kind of the next step from a learning party logically
then however you see farm parties, where people have finally cleared it once and now declare themselves uber professional and have the fight "mastered"

never see a party that sits somewhere between clear and farm.. people clear it once and suddenly assume there's gods at the content.

personally most issues I encounter in farm parties come from lack of communication. everyone just assumes everyone is doing the exact same strategy and that's often just not the case. common example seems to be the mt expecting ot tank swap a mechanic while the ot thinks mt will just cooldown through it. bam! dead people. or the reverse where the mt isn't expecting a swap and the ot moves in for one and bam both tanks eat a massive debuff.

or going back to arr t9 farms were horrendous in my experience. some folks would stack centre expecting golems to be dropped on edges leaving that nice little "safe" area in the centre. other folks would stand on edges expecting golems to be dropped in circles, then you see a golem in the circle and one at the edge too close together merge wipe, everyone rages cos the other guy was doing it wrong..

same in bis ex where healers don't get the dragon killers / generator cos they think a ranged dps /tank will. dps won't get them cos they think the healers will before you know it islands at 50% and you haven't even started smashing the carapace.... wipe then rage....

it's almost as if people believe there is only one way to clear a fight and that everyone has done the exact same strategy as them. I wonder how many wipes would be prevented if people took a minute to make sure everyone had the same strategy / plan of attack