Are there more tanks playing now?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

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I didn't give a "theory", I gave you an answer to your question in the context it was given. I have not said once that they do things differently rotationwise for optimal play, only that one is more punishing of mistakes due to CD importance and the numbers gap being wider, and as it a result it is more challenging but rewarding. You're the one who randomly brought up CD rotations being different, even though I said nothing about that. You asked what STR tanks HAVE to do that VIT tanks don't HAVE to do, well, STR tanks have to micromanage more carefully for bigger reward and safe play. That's your proof right there, as STR tanks have to be more careful than VIT tanks in everything they do.

As someone mentioned before, sometimes a STR tank will have to pop a cooldown that a VIT tank wouldn't have had to pop for example for whatever reason. An example you said isn't an example for some mysterious reason. Even though in non-raid content specifically, it is quite true.

I won't disagree with you in your second statement about judging rotation based on max output for gear, but you're very naive if you think stat choice judgement didn't have a place in 3.1, as they very well did. Judging by your previous post, you do think that. A STR tank could tank and DPS extremely efficiently with extra effort (having to micromanage choices more), while a VIT tank could only tank efficiently. That's a cold hard fact.

This statement right here:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Because maxing one's DPS is more a matter of how you play than what you wear.

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....is completely false as a result. A VIT tank could play perfectly optimally rotationwise with regards to DPS and still come up short vs a STR tank making mistakes. You are terribly underestimating the damage influence STR had over VIT.

You can tell yourself that tight cooldown usage for STR tanks wasn't any more important than it was for VIT tanks, but it won't make it true.

"I have enough HP now so I don't have to worry about cooldowns."

I bet your healers love you.

Ok, so they rotate their cooldown the same way...but they need to use them more carefully...
Let's ignore that it's a bit contradictory.

So, a VIT tank wouldn't need a CD, where a STR tank would. But, why would the VIT not use it ? Does it need for latter ? For a time where the STR tank wouldn't need it ? Or is it just lazyness from the VIT tank that should still use it, even if he can survive without it ? If it's that, yes, I agree, a good tank will use its CD more carefully than a bad tank.

I'm not underestimating the effect of STR, it's just far less meaningful than knowing how to play. It's easy to see garbage DPS even with good gear. As for tanks, if you don't know how to play, you'll die, again, whatever you wear. Especially because maxing DPS means reducing your mitigation.

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Originally Posted by RocheKat

"I have enough HP now so I don't have to worry about cooldowns."
I bet your healers love you.

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Is that for me ?

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Originally Posted by Adire

Doesn't change the fact that lower hp means you're on a tighter HP budget though.

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And this doesn't change the fact that VIT tanks prior to 3.2 had to use their cool downs at the same times as STR tanks. Which is what Reyn is arguing, where in any content would a STR Tank need to use their defensive cool downs differently than a VIT tank? Where would a Paladin need to use Rampart as a VIT tank and then where would they need to use it as a STR tank?

Because if there is no difference, and they used them at the same time, then that "extra budget" of HP you shaved off in exchange for DPS was for the healer, as that would have given them some extra time before you dropped dead on the ground. As no amount of "skill" (timing of your cool downs) is going to save you if your healer is slow on bringing your HP back up.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Now though all Tanks do less damage, are expected to sit in Tank stance and let everyone else do all the work while they soak hits which can be pretty boring. In effect both Warrior and Dark Knight were nerfed but PLD is pretty much "Well I can't miss what I never really had".

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Depends on the content and how hard the boss is hitting. Nothing is stopping any tank from maxing out their dps. If anything a lot of people are sore because we're not pushing out the same amount of damage anymore, which really doesn't make a difference currently since DPS checks have been considerably lowered to compensate for our lack of damage. -- The only real thing we're missing is the illusion of choice.

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Originally Posted by Seku

And this doesn't change the fact that VIT tanks prior to 3.2 had to use their cool downs at the same times as STR tanks. Which is what Reyn is arguing, where in any content would a STR Tank need to use their defensive cool downs differently than a VIT tank? Where would a Paladin need to use Rampart as a VIT tank and then where would they need to use it as a STR tank?

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Once again, there's no need for him to argue that. I already said I agree with that, the optimal rotation is identical for both.

Look at his original quote in the context it was in though. That's not what he was originally saying, he only brought up rotations afterwards.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Is that for me ?

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I honestly don't know who that's for....since no one at all is saying VIT tanks should neglect their cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by Adire

I already said I agree with that, the optimal rotation is identical for both.

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That's exactly what I don't understand.
You agree that the optimal rotation is the same for both types of tanks, but you're also saying that STR tanks need to use them more carefully.
How can both of those things be true at the same time, since "more carefully" automatically means "not in the same way" ?

That's why I'd like a real example to show this. I'm not saying that it's wrong, I'm just saying that I don't see where is the difference...except if you take a tank that neglect its cooldown because he have much more HP, a thing that neither of us advocate for ;)

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

snip

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There's less room for error for STR tanks is what I'm saying. A VIT tank making DPS errors won't be as noticeable as a STR tank making DPS errors, and a VIT tank making CD errors won't be as noticeable as a STR tank making CD errors.

This discussion started as a result of someone saying STR tanking was easy mode, and I'm starting to think our debate was really just the product of misunderstanding :P

I said more carefully because improper play punishes STR tanks more than it punishes VIT tanks, especially in regards to cooldown usage. Punishing things happening when errors happen is a sign of something being difficult, which was my argument against the person saying STR tanking was easy mode.

gave up my tank class, the nerf hurts to much, i made NIN my main

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Originally Posted by Adire

Punishing things happening when errors happen is a sign of something being difficult, which was my argument against the person saying STR tanking was easy mode.

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So, yeah, we're saying the same thing for quite a while, now :p

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

What is true, is that a VIT tank have more rooms for errors, but it's still errors.

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Something I'll keep, though, is that, considering two tanks that play both perfectly withtout focusing on the same stat, the HP budget was something that your healer hade to manage. His errors were also more punishing when your wore STR.

I honestly just feel that a tank's value is diminished with the 20% contribution nerf. It's not about "just doing damage, go play a DPS class" but the value you get from playing a class. Your worth as x class. I enjoy that now 4 of my skills have gained worth and consideration once more (Defiance, Unchained, Inner Beast, Steel Cyclone) as opposed to before where it was "Deliverance or go home noob"(ironically preached alot by yours truly). But once again, tanking and or healing is really just a mini-game that those roles have to do while actually contributing with damage. Excessive skill at those mini-games mean jack squat unless they mean more DPS.
Big HP numbers means nothing if your HP bar % still moves the same.

Nothing feels as rewarding as knowing you're wanted and your actions play an integral part to the completion of the fight.

This is why OT and/or OH suck onions. An OT can really be summed up as "gimped DPS for forced Tank Swap/Stacking Damage Mechanic/Tethered Adds". With the concept of MT and OT, a tank player is experiencing 100% of his role when he is MT and 50% of his role when he is OT. Nothing feels worse when you're really not worth that much and if and when the opportunity inevitably arises, you will be benched for another DPS. If you're being optimal anyways. You gain the effects of Lower Blows. Now I get how PLDs feel when getting replaced by WAR/DRK.

At the very least with the previous ratios people weren't quick to consider replacing you and I can't believe I'm saying this but, the ill informed wouldn't even consider it since we were "pretty much DPS classes but tankier."

Now I know what you're gonna say, "but Fallen, didn't you see that 7war thordan?!?!?!1111!"

Just because something was viable does not make make it suddenly optimal. By any stretch of the imagination. You gain the effects of Lower Blows. Take PLD+DRK for example.

A raid comp of 7 wars doing a collective of 7k raid dps is not better than your standard optimal setup of war drk healer sch 4 dps doing 8.5k. You literally lost another player's worth of contribution for an excessive safety net.

The moment a BCOB/SCOB(the umbral era of being a tank player) like fight arises wherein there is no Forced Tank Swap/Unmanageable Increased Damage Taken/Tethered adds. Your static is going to turn to your OT and ask if they have a DPS class levelled. Feels like broccoli when you can't play the class you main as. You gain the effects of Lower Blows. Feels like maining a PLD y'know?

Edit: Might be off topic but for what it's worth

What I took from the patch and what I think people should consider rather than just be salty purely because of damage nerf
Pros:
- Vit vs Str garbage is gone. Less stupid shitake mushrooms like "letting fending accessories hit the floor" *vomit*
- Enmity and Tank Stance mean something! Yay new skills! Defiance? OPOPOP (Grit still sucks though)
- Improved Skill floor and Skill ceiling

Cons:
- Diminishing Tank role value
- Nerfs
- Unfortunate Warrior niche advantages amplified into serious balance problem with the changes. (Enmity out of Tank Stance, RoH and PS vs BB)

In retrospect, excellent DPS players has become more valuable with the lenient DPS checks. So much more bonus DPS.

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Originally Posted by Adire

Before 3.2, tanks could only come close to outparsing bad dps.

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Where did i say they outparsed good dps? if tank can do 1300 and DPS job does 1600 then that is way too much for a tank job in my book. Was it fun to be close to dps jobs? yes it was but was it balanced? nope.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

This is why OT and/or OH suck onions. An OT can really be summed up as "gimped DPS for forced Tank Swap/Stacking Damage Mechanic/Tethered Adds". With the concept of MT and OT, a tank player is experiencing 100% of his role when he is MT and 50% of his role when he is OT.

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Well it has more to do with encounter design, A1S was cool because there was really no OT except for P1. We need more dual boss encounters tbh.

i don't get how the skill ceiling/flooring is raised from this patch Fallen. The flooring I can kinda understand with how the nerf/strength gear made holding aggro easier, but they buffed the enmity in tank stances as well. Idk if its still comparable to strength aggro but yeah.

Ceiling is debatable. Your dps is lower so that means you can't really slack off as much damage wise as before to play optimally AND staying in dps stance is far harder so i can agree there. The huge cushion however makes things easier damage wise for older content though. Not to say that its enough to completely avoid tank busters or makes them any easier with how the meta has changed, but I actually feel far more relaxed with all it ( at least for trash pulls and such).

but I guess since we are talking about playing at the highest level and raids then trying to "fully optimize" (keyword) now is a tad bit harder since stance dancing is basically a must so you have to be cautious outside of tank stance and things do indeed hit a lot harder. Outside of tank busters in gordias and few other instances, you mostly weren't in tank stance. Now it seems like you are in tank stance far more since meta is in reverse. Even if the dps checks are less harsh you still should try to play 100% as before when it comes to dps just to make runs go faster.

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Originally Posted by Gameplayzero

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Well you kinda answered your own questions, things hit alot harder than before and dmg nerf also nerfed enmity generation in dps stance so enmity matters again where str spec made it trivial before. I understand that not everyone like these changes but for them i say, you still can and should maximize your damage output even if its now less than before.

I don't even tank that often and I have 0 troubles with enmity while stance dancing. I feel the issue is more people who didnt have great enmity generation but were still fine because the STR made up for it.

Also for the people saying they cant stance dance much anymore, if anything this encourages proper stance dancing. What was going on pre-3.2 was NOT stance dancing. That was pulling in tank stance and then staying in dps stance for the rest of the pull

If you were tanking just to be a beefier dps, go play DRG

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Originally Posted by Zari

I don't even tank that often and I have 0 troubles with enmity while stance dancing.

Also for the people saying they cant stance dance much anymore, if anything this encourages proper stance dancing. What was going on pre-3.2 was NOT stance dancing. That was pulling in tank stance and then staying in dps stance for the rest of the pull

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Oh, the classic cherry picking here. You can't isolate what you experienced so far as universal. Who knows if the DPS you were with were terrible, hence you can keep aggro? We will never know.

The purpose of stance dancing is to maximize dps. That's it. Mainly for the experienced tanks to do since they are comfortable at it. Heck, you can still do pulling in DPS stance and still have comfortable lead on aggro. Just a matter of perspective when you see the aggro bar creeping up and down.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

The purpose of stance dancing is to maximize dps.

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Well technically, stance dancing is to maximize DPS while focusing on tank main responsibilites.
If you want to maximize DPS, you'd just stay in DPS stance all the time, and with the damage boost, enmity wasn't an issue...and that's mostly what happened before 3.2
With the proper CD rotation, you can eat a lot of things even in DPS stance, as long as your healer pay enough attention...although it put more burden on him, so it wasn't very "friendly". (The only exception is Inner Beast since you need your Tank stance to pop it.)
That is still very true...even more, since you wearing gear to increase damage also gives you a big HP pool.

That's what Zari pointed out when he said that it wasn't really stance "dancing". So they adjusted the other focus of tanks : Keeping aggro.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

In retrospect, excellent DPS players has become more valuable with the lenient DPS checks. So much more bonus DPS.

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Seems like a lot due to the fact that things have been shifted back to what they were meant to be. I can agree we did over all lose 'value' outside of the MT spot, but I don't agree with the rest. As a group is less likely to bench you now since DPS checks don't seem to be nearly as bad as they were before, where as before pushing out as much dps as possible was a necessity.

If anything SE needs to continue to put in content that forces tank swaps and skills for more active mitigation. Tanks shouldn't have DPS that is starting to cross over into DPS, at least not in a game meant for a team setting. And if they do they should at least bring in RDM and BLU and make them OP as they normally are. =/

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Originally Posted by Synestra

Where did i say they outparsed good dps? if tank can do 1300 and DPS job does 1600 then that is way too much for a tank job in my book. Was it fun to be close to dps jobs? yes it was but was it balanced? nope.

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You basically said it right here, since you clearly aren't talking about bad DPS:

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Originally Posted by Synestra

So bacially you want to do same numbers as DPS jobs but now that you cant outparse them tanking suddenly became boring?

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I don't want to do the same DPS as good DPS, but I'd like to be able to give bad DPS a run for their money. Now that's much more difficult.

Oh, and yes actually, it was balanced. In your example, 300 DPS is actually quite a considerable gap in DPS. Good DPS blew good tanks out of the water in DPS. Especially in raid settings, where something like 300 DPS is a huge number.

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Originally Posted by Adire

You basically said it right here, since you clearly aren't talking about bad DPS:



I don't want to do the same DPS as good DPS, but I'd like to be able to give bad DPS a run for their money. Now that's much more difficult.

Oh, and yes actually, it was balanced. In your example, 300 DPS is actually quite a considerable gap in DPS. Good DPS blew good tanks out of the water in DPS. Especially in raid settings, where something like 300 DPS is a huge number.

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considering how easy warriors rotation is compared to an actual full blown dps like a mch (who has one of the harder rotations to master) while putting out around the same numbers for far less work? Idk if thats balanced.

Not to say I don't miss the old damage, but I did feel that was very off-putting that a warrior could breathe down the neck of a mch/bard in a single target fight and say "thats cute bro. You guys support classes? Funny cause I can boost damage of others as well, don't need your tp regen, and we do around the same damage!"

Well tanks are still doing more then a bad dps.
Maybe they should take another 20% from tank dps.

I dont know about more tanks...but as of 3.2 I've converted to maining a tank xD.

Before 3.2, I used to have 1~5 mins queues as healer and 5~7 queues as monk doing my expert roulette.

Now, both are at 13+ mins.

Somehow, I feel like tank population shrank, at least in DF

Personally as a tank main, and someone who caps early, I've barely been running roulettes anymore unless someone needs help. Still tanking, just different focus.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Somehow, I feel like tank population shrank, at least in DF

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I think being able do roulettes with pre-made are real reason, since they added it i havent done any solo roulettes nor i have planned to do those anymore. Its either pre-made or PvP when it comes to tomes.

Ex roulette was already available for premades, I don't think that's the reason

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Originally Posted by Fue

Well tanks are still doing more then a bad dps.

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I've always found this statement loaded. Like being able to out-do a bad player is some sort of badge of honor.

"Tanks"? You mean "good tanks". And if good tanks can out-DPS bad DPS, congratu-goddamn-lations, you just joined the club of which every other "good (insert job here)" is a member.

On a side note, wtf is this thread even about now? I read the OP and the first page and fail to see how it has gone on for 19 pages.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Ex roulette was already available for premades, I don't think that's the reason

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Ah well i should have pointed out i meant roulettes in general, after patch i noticed huge influx on tanks in PvP and tbh i dont know why. Atm its not uncommon to see 3-4 tanks in each alliance o.O

Back on topic...

Occasionally I used to see healer be adventurer in need. I haven't seen that since 3.2 hit. Sign of fewer tanks?

I have also started tanking again since 3.2 hit. Although to be fair mostly with my FC or friends, although I have pugged a few Bisex runs looking for the bird. Ha ha only whatever the goal is -5 for my majestic tank mount. :p

I will probably try it out in Feast in a couple of days as well!

I was "deployed" for 3.1-3.2 - Got back a couple weeks ago and I was incredibly burned out in 3.1..

When I initially started playing again there were a TON of new tanks, DRK's especially...But, now - I notice there aren't many at all, especially in DF, PF and A/M.

I think people are generally unhappy with the dps changes - I could honestly care less about the whole str/vit thing but, yeah - Definitely noticing tanks dropping off the radar lately.

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Originally Posted by Masked

I think people are generally unhappy with the dps changes - I could honestly care less about the whole str/vit thing but, yeah - Definitely noticing tanks dropping off the radar lately.

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I prefer to run roulettes with people I know of and am confident about their DPS, rather than being on the mercy of the pug groups these days.
The new dungeons hamper down mass pulls so you're bogged down often with only 3-5 mobs on you before you can proceed, which make quick progress a chore with randoms.

Well. On DF I play as Tank normaly ,so I cannot tell. But on Party Finder on my server ,the tanks spots always fills the first ones normally. So, I don't think at least on my server they drop tank classes. And I see on Idyllshire a lot of them normally.

About the tank changes. I'm glad a tank now play as tank and not DPS. I like the tank changes, making them more tank and less DPS. But also, I understand those tanks, mainly warriors, who are now a bit frustrated because the damage is not as high as before.

Also, still a problem with mechanics. SE manage to create raids where the DPS cheack are designed to be passed using all the party DPS, including the healers and Tanks. Ifthey will make the tank DPS less relevant, they should stop making all party DPS to pass those checks.

I don't know about people in general, but the "Adventurer in Need" on the Roulette is almost unfailingly Tank, once in a great while Healer, and never under any circumstance DPS. That's all I know.

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Originally Posted by Gameplayzero

considering how easy warriors rotation is compared to an actual full blown dps like a mch (who has one of the harder rotations to master) while putting out around the same numbers for far less work? Idk if thats balanced.

Not to say I don't miss the old damage, but I did feel that was very off-putting that a warrior could breathe down the neck of a mch/bard in a single target fight and say "thats cute bro. You guys support classes? Funny cause I can boost damage of others as well, don't need your tp regen, and we do around the same damage!"

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Then.. why not buff Bard/MCH? Its not like they are screaming utility. If this was EQ2 ...


So you have 2 underpowered DPS. The suggestion was to NERF Tank DPS because 2 DPS classes are not up to par, but other classes are still better?

Why not.. *gasp* give them real group buffs and utility?

In EQ2, Bards have the same DPS as Tank classes, BUUUUUUT they have REALLLLY powerful group buffs.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Then.. why not buff Bard/MCH? Its not like they are screaming utility. If this was EQ2 ...


So you have 2 underpowered DPS. The suggestion was to NERF Tank DPS because 2 DPS classes are not up to par, but other classes are still better?

Why not.. *gasp* give them real group buffs and utility?

In EQ2, Bards have the same DPS as Tank classes, BUUUUUUT they have REALLLLY powerful group buffs.

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If they add true support classes to the game then content would have to be designed around it. A chance of either

1) Content becomes undoable without the support role present
2) Content is doable without support, but having support makes content trivial because of the buffs they provide

I think this is why AST buffs are gated by RNG; makes it okay to have buffs without balancing content around their inclusion since they aren't guaranteed.

I noticed this post some time ago but didn't have much to say. I kept an eye on the thing and it indeed seems there are less tanks on nearly every side:

From the DF taking ages for other roles vs being istant when I tank to the missing flow of Darkside flames in Idyllshire, even in PF I always find free slots for tanks. If something I saw more PLDs around but I can say at least on my server/datacenter there seems to be way less tanks around

the nerf was to high 200 50 atp loss was to much 100 or 150 fine. a second nerf in pvp are you kidding me why? just so more people wpm;d play different classes in pop????

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Originally Posted by Masked

I think people are generally unhappy with the dps changes - I could honestly care less about the whole str/vit thing but, yeah - Definitely noticing tanks dropping off the radar lately.

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Yea a WAR I talked to, stop being a WAR because their dps wasn't as high anymore. Its not like a mass of tanks stop playing as one, but I still think its not that great of a reason to stop playing as one because of the VIT being the main stat now. Before the patch I mostly used VIT gear on trash then switch to STR when I get to a boss, so with the patch I didn't see that huge of a dip in dps, yes its there I see it but nothing to whine about.

What Ragology said. Adding more support to mch/bard is nice and dandy, but the content atm doesn't really require it and does nothing to change the current meta since everything is already made. What you suggest (and I agree with) sounds like something next expansion could bring. Its not something that can just be changed on a dime and idk how much further they could make the "support" go with how set and stone everything is already. Stuns, pacifications, heavy, damage up, etc are already cared for by other jobs so in essence everyone is some sort of support. Hell I feel even ninja is more support than bard/machinist because the support they bring is by the far the most unique type of support this game has to offer AND they give tp as well (not in the same way but still). No other job can manipulate aggro like that.

Unless they prove me wrong with the current systems, the "support" classes are probably just going to be tp/mp batteries for a long time. As unfortunate as that is.