The arrogance of some people

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Originally Posted by Andrea

As I said in my post I get that people can be new and not great as a healer. Im fully ok with people taking their time and learning the basics first, those aren't really the healers I have problems with. We were all there at a stage after all , weren't we?

The healers I have a problem with are those geared in 210 and will sit around doing nothing or even jumping around while the party takes no damage.If you have time to jump around and run about you have the time to dot enemies. If people are happy to sit around doing nothing for 30-60 seconds at a time fine, it is their choice, I can't force people to play in a certain way. It also is my choice to consider those people lazy.

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Completely agreed, and I apologize for any miscommunication or misunderstanding.

After tanking for a while now. I give no damn now in DF just jeep me alive. I get more healers that let me die to dps than I get the idle heal only people. This game has too many excuses for dps being bad that this game needs to jump down dps's throats for not know rotations properly using CD right. We already demanding healers and tanks to do their roles and then some. It's not really good balance is two out three roles have to fill in 2 at a time.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

This is a problem I have faced as PLD many times, when sub-par dps means adds take too long to die, and I take far more damage than I would with better DPS, and for a much longer time. That puts pressure on the healer's MP, as does the feequency with which the DPS players stand in stupid. Unless the 'nice to have' extra DPS that a healer can safely provide, offsets the lack of real DPS, it's not going to alter that situation. The healer wil OOM because of the duration of the fight and the MP spent on supplementting the DPS.

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That's just a gearing shortfall or inexperience on the healer's part (speaking only for WHM though, which is my main). You can heal and DPS all day as a WHM with select use of cheap heals (DS, Regen, Cure, Cure II) and do full time DPS. Trick is just alternating Shroud at the right time with Assize. When the one is down the other is coming back. Unless the DPS is way under, you're doing heals and DPS yourself, AND you have to do some ressing, you're not running out. You may need to occasionally back off on a rotation as Assize won't give you as much as Shroud, but you can keep it up. Finished Saints boss 3 just myself and Paladin when we lost the two DPS. You can go forever. Yeah, it won't be fast, but mana won't be a problem for an experienced WHM.

Again though, you get there with practice. A newer WHM won't be doing that. I didn't. Early on I held back on Shroud, healed too soon, didn't utilize Regen as much as I could. Divine Seal was a safety button. Cleric Stance was scary because it seemed like I was always needing Cure handy. We were all there once.

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Originally Posted by SlyTribal

I just want to know, in all honesty from the people defending Healers not using DPS in their downtime, would you still defend a tank who back tanked while using flash, not DPSing, or only using a single hate move even. Maybe a Melee standing in an AoE that would otherwise force him to move out of range, so he can max out the dps, knowing healers are only healing and would be able to cure through it. Would you defend a Bard who only wanted to play the support side and purely sang songs without shooting or the other way around?

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I think we can all agree, that as it's the tank job to hold hate, once they have hate they are entitled to stand there and watch the mob die in front of them. Further, it's not the DPS job to heal themselves, thus they can stand in all the AoEs they want as the healer is there to bring them back up.

If possible, at all costs, never attempt to coordinate or perform in a team-manner. Duty finder isn't for that. It's for 2 things only, bonus rewards and getting carried.

Oh, no...It's escaped the Healer forums! Everybody run!

I do think a good healer will DPS when they have opportunities to do so, but if I had to choose, I would take a healer that focuses mostly on healing (or even entirely so) over one that focuses too much on DPS. I'm a bit risk-averse, though.

I tend to DPS when I heal, but my main is also a DPS, and sometimes, I play healer for a break from that, and so I focus on it a bit less, at least in less tense content, like roulettes and the like.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I think we can all agree, that as it's the tank job to hold hate, once they have hate they are entitled to stand there and watch the mob die in front of them. Further, it's not the DPS job to heal themselves, thus they can stand in all the AoEs they want as the healer is there to bring them back up.

If possible, at all costs, never attempt to coordinate or perform in a team-manner. Duty finder isn't for that. It's for 2 things only, bonus rewards and getting carried.

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This, as a tank, it is only my job to hold aggro. I don't play tank to dps or heal myself. I get aggro and stop. Dodging? I'm a tank! My HP bar is the healers concern!

I said it before, and I'll say it again:

"Raid-heavy players bring that mentality over to lesser content."

I don't care what anyone EXPECTS of me; my WHM will NOT dps, and my PLD will NOT wear STR accessories. I'll just play my NIN if I want to deal damage. SHEESH!!!

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Originally Posted by NaySilver

No, the main part is that you can't compensate bad dps with healer's dps. Sure, healers can use cleric stance, but saying that healers have to dps just means that many of these 'pro healers' are not so pro, because healer's dps is connected with the equip and the skill level of the group (bad tank=no time for dps; dps that can't avoid aoe=no time for dps).

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I actually beg to differ here. When I run my SCH with a friend's tank, if both DPS are poorly geared I just ask him to keep pulls reasonably sized so we can both maximize our damage. We both usually end up out-damaging the DPS in that case, which is fine. I get that undergeared people are in DF for tomes the same as I am and that doesn't bother me at all. I just do what I can to speed things up for everyone and in that case the healer DPS is inarguably speeding up the dungeon run.

Yes, there are situations where I can't reasonably DPS. Tanks that think they're too cool to use cooldowns make it exceedingly difficult. I was pleasantly surprised by a tank last night in Fractal that was all in i160 and i170 gear but he used his cooldowns and kept trash pulls to a reasonable size for his gear, which left me plenty of windows for DPS. DPS players standing in stupid aren't going to stop me from DPS'ing. Once or twice by accident I can accept, and I'll pop out of CS to heal if needed (hell, I don't even need to pop out of CS to use Leeches). After that they're at the mercy of Eos' whims and if they complain I'll pleasantly inform them that the floor candy is not tasty or nutritious, so could they please stop eating so much of it.

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Originally Posted by Felis

And in the moment you turn on cleric stance, one of the DPS jobs get a huge hit because he ignoed an aoe and you can't heal him up with just one heal because of clearic stance cool down.

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That's what skills like Bloodbath, Life Surge, and Second Wind are for. DPS have survival tools at their disposal for those times they stand in stupid, or even when they take unavoidable damage. I've lost count of many times it's saved my skin to pop Bloodbath when huge raid-wide damage is going out. As a SCH, I typically leave healing DPS up to my fairy until the next AoE heal is needed (unless I know AoE damage or other dangerous mechanics are coming soon). As a WHM, I'll drop a Regen on them and let it do its thing (again, unless I know something is coming up that people need to be topped off for).

The entire party doesn't need to be at 100% hp 100% of the time. If the DPS sits at 50% for a little while because you're DPS'ing and you know it's safe because there's no AoE damage going out, that doesn't make you a bad healer. It means you know the encounter and you can do your job efficiently. That DPS doesn't do any less damage at 50% HP than he would at 100%. With all that said, if you aren't familiar with the fight, then yes I can see an argument for keeping the entire party topped off.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Healer DPS isn't going to take minutes off a run, it's just not that significant, so why stress so much about it?

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That's patently untrue. A decently geared SCH or WHM can put out some pretty mean damage.

AST is a little less, but they can still throw some decent damage nonetheless.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I think we can all agree, that as it's the tank job to hold hate, once they have hate they are entitled to stand there and watch the mob die in front of them. Further, it's not the DPS job to heal themselves, thus they can stand in all the AoEs they want as the healer is there to bring them back up.

If possible, at all costs, never attempt to coordinate or perform in a team-manner. Duty finder isn't for that. It's for 2 things only, bonus rewards and getting carried.

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Everything wrong with duty finder mentality in a single horrifying post.

God forbid anyone to desire others to do more than being mediocre.
Let us all join hands, sing the Kumbaya and enjoy the Safespace™.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

That's patently untrue. A decently geared SCH or WHM can put out some pretty mean damage.

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Oh wow, she actually did say that. That shows a total lack of knowledge about the classes.

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Originally Posted by AlexanderThorolund

I can't stand healers who just stand there when the party is at full health and do nothing. Just stand there while they wait for HP to drop.

I play the 3 healers as my main classes and I wouldn't dream of doing that. I always DPS no matter how stressful it is.

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Well, in that case, you should ALWAYS go healer, then. No one makes you dps on your healer, just like you should make a healer NOT dps on their healer.

I just have the mentality that, if I'm healing or tanking, and the mobs die slow, it's boring and takes too long. What do I do? Continue to roll dps. What I'm saying is, everyone that says the healer SHOULD dps, should just roll as a healer ALL THE TIME if that's a pet peeve. Perhaps you can do it better. I have no true reason WHY I don't dps as WHM outside of getting too comfortable with that one extra Stone and miss the timing to heal; I simply just don't do it. Lazy? Nah! It's just how I play.

*EDIT*
There were times when I popped Cleric and charged Stone III. The tank got slapped hard for some reason. Cleric was still cooling down, so I threw a Cure II, which did NOTHING, so I had to toss Benediction. Then, the BLM lol'd at me, asking me why I wasn't healing. I had too many instances like that to the point where I'll NEVER dps again, as the tank actually lost all HP, called me a sucky WHM, then he left.

If you need a straight healer, I'll go. If you need a healer that can dps, ask someone else. I get praise and recognition for my healing prowess, being able to calmly handle those "oh crap" moments. That's what my healer is known for.

This is the thing: not everyone has the same skill level competency, and not everyone wants to improve. Those who do want to improve are probably already doing something to try and improve, and those who don't aren't going to listen to you anyway. Most people I see in DF can't even hit their GCD every 2-3 second, so it doesn't surprise me that there's a large portion of healers that just want to heal and watch the HP list because they find DPSing stressful.

I know as a DD in duty finder (with some random healer I have no clue about), I generally rather have the healer focus on healing if they aren't comfortable with DPSing. I much rather have a healer that will actually heal me then a healer that's going to DPS and let people die~

Out of curiosity:
If the tank is well geared and is taking very little damage to the point that you have nothing but overheal for many seconds at a time... do you not get... restless about doing NOTHING?

Fill. The. Void.
Be more.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

I just have the mentality that, if I'm healing or tanking, and the mobs die slow, it's boring and takes too long. What do I do? Continue to roll dps. What I'm saying is, everyone that says the healer SHOULD dps, should just roll as a healer ALL THE TIME if that's a pet peeve. Perhaps you can do it better. I have no true reason WHY I don't dps as WHM outside of getting too comfortable with that one extra Stone and miss the timing to heal; I simply just don't do it. Lazy? Nah! It's just how I play.

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You can still heal in cleric stance well enough to give yourself the one second you need to drop it and heal better. Also if casting one extra stone spell is the difference between life and death that seems more a matter of waiting too long to switch back to healing rather than it being a side effect of having to dps, most spells do not have that long of a delay.

In the case you edited in honestly that just sounds like something that happens once in awhile, there will always be a situation where your party will die no matter how good everyone is. It sounds as though when it happened to you it was in the company of poor players who can't handle the five seconds it takes to get back to where they left off and try again.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

I don't care what anyone EXPECTS of me; my WHM will NOT dps, and my PLD will NOT wear STR accessories. I'll just play my NIN if I want to deal damage. SHEESH!!!

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Interesting mentality to have in a game where 99% of the stuff you do is with other players.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

I said it before, and I'll say it again:

"Raid-heavy players bring that mentality over to lesser content."

I don't care what anyone EXPECTS of me; my WHM will NOT dps, and my PLD will NOT wear STR accessories. I'll just play my NIN if I want to deal damage. SHEESH!!!

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I don't raid in this game but I still prefer for healers to do more than half afk. I know I definitely am not okay with myself being bare minimally helpful to the group, don't know about you. I always DPS when possible when healing as such.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

I just have the mentality that, if I'm healing or tanking, and the mobs die slow, it's boring and takes too long. What do I do? Continue to roll dps. What I'm saying is, everyone that says the healer SHOULD dps, should just roll as a healer ALL THE TIME if that's a pet peeve. Perhaps you can do it better. I have no true reason WHY I don't dps as WHM outside of getting too comfortable with that one extra Stone and miss the timing to heal; I simply just don't do it. Lazy? Nah! It's just how I play.

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I remember you posting about how certain rotations are wrong and people shouldn't use them at all, and having posts telling people how to play jobs, and yet you come out with this. Either you're a troll or a complete hypocrite.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

I said it before, and I'll say it again:

"Raid-heavy players bring that mentality over to lesser content."

I don't care what anyone EXPECTS of me; my WHM will NOT dps, and my PLD will NOT wear STR accessories. I'll just play my NIN if I want to deal damage. SHEESH!!!

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Worst. Mentality. Ever.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

so I had to toss Benediction

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And whats the problem? WHMs should stop with this mentality of saving all skills for emergencies in dungeons, they are just cutting their power for no reason.

Sometimes I start DPSing without even using regen on the tank, just to finish with a Benediction. Example: In the big pack after second boss in fractal, I start with Presence of Mind, Holy Spam + Assize and finish with a beautiful Benediction on the tank, I always get at least 2 commendations when I do that, going 3k+ DPS there.

I use Tetra regularly, thats how I afford time and mana to DPS. Lots of damage going on? Instead of saving swiftcast for rez, I use swiftcast + Medica II, throw a Tetra in a DPS and Benediction on the tank, boom, situation already under control.

If I were always saving skills for the tank when he is almost dying, my hands would be tied almost all the time.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

I said it before, and I'll say it again:

"Raid-heavy players bring that mentality over to lesser content."

I don't care what anyone EXPECTS of me; my WHM will NOT dps, and my PLD will NOT wear STR accessories. I'll just play my NIN if I want to deal damage. SHEESH!!!

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http://s.quickmeme.com/img/ba/ba18f9...dfd84c44d8.jpg

I actually find arrogance in the healers who think it is ok to not even draw their weapon or sit there afk for a majority of a dungeon because heals are not needed and something interesting is on Netflix.

But that's just me.

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Originally Posted by Aryalandi

Everything wrong with duty finder mentality in a single horrifying post.

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Pretty sure that's sarcasm...but yes, it describes this community's problem spot on.

I guess it's fine when i start only auto-attacking as Ninja now. I'm still doing my job, right?

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Originally Posted by Elazu

Pretty sure that's sarcasm...but yes, it describes this community's problem spot on.

I guess it's fine when i start only auto-attacking as Ninja now. I'm still doing my job, right?

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Yes lol it was definitely sarcasm :P

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

Healers are expected to toss some dots, sure if your slammed and have to heal back to back to keep the tank or dps up I understand, but I main AST and find time to still throw some dots up and cast my attack spells. Don't be lazy.

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This is the general beef with healers that NEVER DPS. When the pull starts, but can be understandable since a lot of dmg is going out, but as the fight winds down and the healer is standing there not doing or casting anything for an extended period it's just laziness in my book.

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

Excuse me it is not being lazy. I took healer to heal not DPS. If I wanted to DPS I would play a DPS class. If I keep everyone alive then I am doing my job.

Do you also expect the DPS to throw heals too? If no then why do you expect healers to DPS?

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1) Your JOB has built in DPS skills including several new ones in HW, so take the hint.
2) As a BLM, I have on multiple occasions had to main heal by spamming Physik after healer dies because they can't dodge, helping the tank survive and winning the fight. as a DPS should I just say "Screw it, let the tank die. I'm a DPS not a Healer!" and just let us lose the fight?

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Originally Posted by Elazu

Pretty sure that's sarcasm...but yes, it describes this community's problem spot on.

I guess it's fine when i start only auto-attacking as Ninja now. I'm still doing my job, right?

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Oh i know, but its horrifying because in spite of the fact that the /post/ was only joking (it was hilarious) its actually how things are >.>;;

If it was taking you this long to run a dungeon that is done in 20-30 min top then you should've kicked your lowest DPS.

Blame the devs for putting so much emphasis on DPS in everything.

Pisses me off too, but you do it because that's the meta =/

I wanna be a pure healer, but I can't, so I do my frankly pointless dps/get stressed out toeing the line between Holy and healing. I refuse to wear str accessories on my paladin because I feel too squishy. You literally can't win with people in this game whatever you do (dps too much? "SCRUB HEALER". Don't dps enough? "SCRUB HEALER!"), and that's 99% of the reason I don't touch the DF unless I have to. My friends don't yell at me for playing "sub-optimally". They don't snark at me for not dpsing when I'm not confident doing so.

Why are people so horrible to each other on this game, seriously?

As a scholar, runs are actually more fun if I never need to leave Cleric Stance. Your fairy should be able to deal with like, 70-80% of all healing, so there's really no reason to leave Cleric Stance unless the tank's health has dropped considerably.

A Healer DPSing can be the difference between a run taking 25-30 mins or being done in under 20. I'd much rather be done in under 20.

If you're not DPSing as healer, you're on the same level as a tank that spams Flash/Overpower/Unleash and never pops cooldowns, or a DPS that only uses their basic combo and no buffs/debuffs. You have Cleric Stance and strong spells for a reason, and tanking/healing is so easy in this game that there's no excuse for not contributing as much DPS as possible.

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Originally Posted by Rynia

Why are people so horrible to each other on this game, seriously?

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Because: YOU ARE THE CAUSE OF ALL OF MY LIFES PROBLEMS!!!
people these days seem to have more than a healthy amount of anger and sadly go about dragging it with them when they get online, like a tank i had in duty finder who exploded at the first timer black mage for not noticing a mob that came out of nowhere

It took five seconds to get back to where we were after the whipe, it took 10 minutes before the tank stopped raging about how he "didnt have time for mistakes!!!"

I gave a memorable lecture on how if he was so angry playing a game and had no time for a five second delay then he needed to re-evaluate his reason for playing since it obviously wasn't for fun anymore, healer and blm gave a round of applause.. and commendations. was a good day.

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Originally Posted by Rynia

Blame the devs for putting so much emphasis on DPS in everything.

Pisses me off too, but you do it because that's the meta =/

I wanna be a pure healer, but I can't, so I do my frankly pointless dps/get stressed out toeing the line between Holy and healing. I refuse to wear str accessories on my paladin because I feel too squishy. You literally can't win with people in this game whatever you do (dps too much? "SCRUB HEALER". Don't dps enough? "SCRUB HEALER!"), and that's 99% of the reason I don't touch the DF unless I have to. My friends don't yell at me for playing "sub-optimally". They don't snark at me for not dpsing when I'm not confident doing so.

Why are people so horrible to each other on this game, seriously?

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Well, I'm sorry the world isn't one big liberal art college campus.

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Originally Posted by RickXRolled

Well, I'm sorry the world isn't one big liberal art college campus.

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Not a liberal arts student, try again =P

Just someone who thinks people on this game take things waaaaaaaay too seriously. It's a game. People play mmos to have fun with others. A lot of people on FF seem to forget that and treat it as though everything is superseriousomg and get annoyed at people who aren't playing the way they want them to xDD

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Originally Posted by Rynia

People play mmos to have fun with others.

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It's really fun for 3-7 people to have that one person be lazy and slow things down, stand around and do nothing for awhile while they're working none stop.

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Originally Posted by Launched

You have Cleric Stance and strong spells for a reason

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Yes because otherwise healers wouldn't be able to get through the MSQ/overworld fights

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Originally Posted by LazyMemories

I'm a great healer but your analogy for us to be great is silly.
When T6 was first out without buffs or echos I solo'd healed it because other healer got locked out.
To you I guess I'm good not great
But like my grandmother says Opinions are like assholes everyone got one.

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No offense, but "great" healers DPS. In endgame content, you would be considered a liability regardless of your healing because other healers will perform at a comparable and/or superior level, but also contribute to damaging the boss. As such, they are more valuable than you. That is simply the foundation FFXIV has laid out: all classes are expected to provide damage whenever possible. Personally, I do feel more responsibility should be forced onto DPS jobs to better balance the workload, however that's a new argument entirely.

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Originally Posted by Silica-chan

Yes because otherwise healers wouldn't be able to get through the MSQ/overworld fights

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Actually SE after seeing stance dance become a thing started taking whm in a direction that encourages it, so while maybe that was the intent originally this simply isn't true anymore.

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Originally Posted by Rynia

Why are people so horrible to each other on this game, seriously?

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It's mostly on the NA servers people get really nasty with each other.
Tonberry is amazing :) Not a complete hug box and not completely toxic and there's always people in a LS I'm in sharing their stories about how horrible the NA datacentre is. Even JP's call out NA players.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPlInJNc1Vc

I would never dream about going back to Gilgamesh.

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Originally Posted by Silica-chan

Yes because otherwise healers wouldn't be able to get through the MSQ/overworld fights

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Except you could clear any solo fight without Cleric Stance because your abilities still do damage and you can heal yourself. Cleric Stance is usable and toggleable in dungeons and combat, like tank stances or BRD/MCH stances. It's not like AST stances where you choose one or the other, and many healer offensive abilities are very useful in group content like Holy's stun, Assize having 300 potency, or Shadowflare's slow. You're clearly meant to be able to contribute with DPS, and 90% of the time the healing isn't intense enough to stop you from doing that.