PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke

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Originally Posted by Donjo

No, the correct answer is absolutely a nerf. We're currently in a situation where the Tanking classes are busting over the "Support DPS" and nipping on the heels of the actual DPS. Buffing PLD damage is just playing with fire.

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Uh, no. So far Alex Savage is being designed with hard DPS checks as the primary method of gating, a change from Bahamut's Coils where mechanics often were. Tanks need to be out there DPSing hard now to meet these checks. The content is intended to be cleared with tanks DPSing and their DPS in expac has been boosted relative to in ARR specifically for this.

If "support DPS" aren't able to out-DPS tanks in progression content then they seriously need to git gud. I know a BRD who outputs 1.2k on Faust, find me a tank who can output 1.2k on Faust and we'll talk. Otherwise your argument is completely invalid.

If anything , they need to rework the crit,parry,block system and make parry (a stat you actually have control of) proc before block and crit. Basically every attack you take is first checked by parry , if you don't parry it you may block it , and if you do neither it may be a crit hit on you. It should also work exactly like critical hit chance was adjusted to do as well. The more parry you stack , the higher the rate you parry and the higher the percentage per parry.

Imagine if even before thinking about blocking (cause it should be 2nd behind parry and not behind crit hit on the proc list ) , your character basically had a 40% chance to parry and that parry was 30-40% mitigation. Parry then becomes extremely viable and dps stats are brushed to the side.


And lastly , I don't think tanks should be able to parry magic but I feel Pld should have a chance to block it for around 15% mitigation.

The sooner they fix parry , the sooner tanks will stop worrying about dps #s

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Originally Posted by Geaux

And lastly , I don't think tanks should be able to parry magic but I feel Pld should have a chance to block it for around 15% mitigation.

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Sure, but as long as Drk's can equip shields and block physical.

I'll take a Bulwark with that too.

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Originally Posted by Illya

Uh, no. So far Alex Savage is being designed with hard DPS checks as the primary method of gating, a change from Bahamut's Coils where mechanics often were. Tanks need to be out there DPSing hard now to meet these checks. The content is intended to be cleared with tanks DPSing and their DPS in expac has been boosted relative to in ARR specifically for this.

If "support DPS" aren't able to out-DPS tanks in progression content then they seriously need to git gud. I know a BRD who outputs 1.2k on Faust, find me a tank who can output 1.2k on Faust and we'll talk. Otherwise your argument is completely invalid.

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Uh, no. Tank dps is only needed when trying to push content with a lower ilvl than intended. Once the real dps jobs get their i200 weapons in a few days, the need for tank damage clear clear dps checks will go away.

While I do try to maximize my dps as a pld, I don't see the need for more buffs than we already got.

Yes we do need more dps, a simple solution would be to add a 25% of damage self heal and a 10% damage increase buff that lasts 20 sec to Royal Authority, problem solved.
Also, to Goring blade an mp refresh to each tick of the dot would be good. These changes are necessary because both Dark Knight and Warrior have some extra effect on each of their three combos
while Paladin only has one combo with an effect the rage of halone combo, where you get enmity and strength down.

Tank dps is always a good thing. It shortens fights which reduces how much time strain you put into your healers.

Now in 2.0 you did not have so many dps checks. Soft enrages happened but we're largely rare, which coupled with heavy physical damage made this an ok view in 2.0

3.0 just isn't the same. Most fights have a food amount of Magic and no physical busters. Most have enraged to build around. It's a different paradigm and your classic paladin fits poorly into it.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Tank dps is always a good thing. It shortens fights which reduces how much time strain you put into your healers.

Now in 2.0 you did not have so many dps checks. Soft enrages happened but we're largely rare, which coupled with heavy physical damage made this an ok view in 2.0

3.0 just isn't the same. Most fights have a food amount of Magic and no physical busters. Most have enraged to build around. It's a different paradigm and your classic paladin fits poorly into it.

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Um, no. Tanks are meant to take massive amount of dmg and LIVE. I have NO clue why or where this new "STR based tank" crap is coming from. Every time I have been in a party with these str based tanks, guess what happens. THEY DIE. I wish this craze or fad or w/e it is would go away. Want to do dmg, then role as a DPS....

Now don't get me wrong, Pally should have lowest dps and maybe the worst aoes, but the aoes right now are garbage tier in comparison to DRK. The Dark has 3 damaging aoes if you don't even count dark passenger. The pally has 1. This is wrong. We need some kind of dps buff and it needs to be on our aoe.

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Originally Posted by Illya

If "support DPS" aren't able to out-DPS tanks in progression content then they seriously need to git gud. I know a BRD who outputs 1.2k on Faust, find me a tank who can output 1.2k on Faust and we'll talk. Otherwise your argument is completely invalid.

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Faust is a terrible indicator of single target DPS because nearly every DPS class(this includes Bards) is going to use an AOE ability at some point in their rotation. They could even be doing it on purpose to pad their numbers. A more correct metric would be the first 90 seconds of the Savage Oppressor fight or an actual Target Dummy.

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Originally Posted by Illya

Uh, no. So far Alex Savage is being designed with hard DPS checks as the primary method of gating, a change from Bahamut's Coils where mechanics often were. Tanks need to be out there DPSing hard now to meet these checks. The content is intended to be cleared with tanks DPSing and their DPS in expac has been boosted relative to in ARR specifically for this.

If "support DPS" aren't able to out-DPS tanks in progression content then they seriously need to git gud. I know a BRD who outputs 1.2k on Faust, find me a tank who can output 1.2k on Faust and we'll talk. Otherwise your argument is completely invalid.

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This. I would say the only exception is A2S where WARs may viably out DPS some actual DPS.

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Originally Posted by Donjo

Faust is a terrible indicator of single target DPS because every DPS class is going to use an AOE ability at some point in their rotation. They could even be doing it on purpose to pad their numbers. A more correct metric would be the first 90 seconds of the Savage Oppressor fight or an actual Target Dummy.

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People should be filtering out the adds on their Faust parse. Anyone citing a parse that includes the damage on adds is going to instantly lose credibility. I know that just targetting Faust my BRD does about 1125-1175 DPS so his numbers are accurate (My BRD will be slighly behind most as all my NQ Alex drops went to my PLD)

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Originally Posted by Fue

Ill just leave this here.

http://puu.sh/jl9mt/19e9a0ea40.png
ilvl186 with Ravana Axe. No party buff, food or pots

http://puu.sh/jlet3/6eff2967e7.png
Same thing with Pld obviously missing the slashing debuff and i had to use enliven to even get a decent time.

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What gear on the PLD? Main reason I ask is because I just went and wailed on a dummy on my PLD using i200 weapon, 4 melded accs + 1 STR acc and I came out at 836 DPS at the point I ran TP dead (like 2 mins 40). That was with some food still on too.

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Originally Posted by Kaith

People should be filtering out the adds on their Faust parse. Anyone citing a parse that includes the damage on adds is going to instantly lose credibility. I know that just targetting Faust my BRD does about 1125-1175 DPS so his numbers are accurate (My BRD will be slighly behind most as all my NQ Alex drops went to my PLD)

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M'kay. Guess Yoshi-P was also speaking for Bards when he told Machinists to get good. So the Tanks are all nipping on the heels of every DPS. This doesn't change the fact that they are still doing too much damage.

I wouldn't include PLD in that conversation. Sword Oath and not worrying about enmity I get 830-840 DPS on a dummy. In Shield Oath it's like 590 DPS. That's also using the i200 weapon which other jobs don't have access to yet and using melded accessories.

WARs are on the heels of DPS though, which is also why PLD DPS looks so bad. DRKs are somewhere in between the two.

The other problem which makes PLD seem bad right now is that it's the lowest tank DPS whilst the current endgame content has mainly magical tank busters. So it may have better mitigation on paper to make up for the lower damage but it isn't getting to utilize it in the current endgame environment.

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Originally Posted by MaiyaBeaumont

Um, no. Tanks are meant to take massive amount of dmg and LIVE. I have NO clue why or where this new "STR based tank" crap is coming from. Every time I have been in a party with these str based tanks, guess what happens. THEY DIE. I wish this craze or fad or w/e it is would go away. Want to do dmg, then role as a DPS....

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I've been running str gear as pld and war for post-50 dungeons, and a mix of str and vit in Alexander normal. You can do it, you just have to not suck, but apparently, that's too much to ask of players.

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Originally Posted by Donjo

M'kay. Guess Yoshi-P was also speaking for Bards when he told Machinists to get good. So the Tanks are all nipping on the heels of every DPS. This doesn't change the fact that they are still doing too much damage.

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Why does it matter if tanks do more damage? Progression teams only bring two and farm teams will only bring one. There's no balancing issues to worry about because this isn't a pvp-centric game. There are no victims here.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

Why does it matter if tanks do more damage? Progression teams only bring two and farm teams will only bring one. There's no balancing issues to worry about because this isn't a pvp-centric game. There are no victims here.

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We are getting deeper and deeper into what I would call "efficiency by exclusion." If someone prefers to play as a class or job that the community has decided is too inefficient for a particular situation, then they become the victims by being excluded. This is why SE is always quick to make adjustments to the game whenever enough cries about a class pop up that are powerful enough to stop a lot of people from using it.

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Originally Posted by Donjo

We are getting deeper and deeper into what I would call "efficiency by exclusion." If someone prefers to play as a class or job that the community has decided is too inefficient for a particular situation, then they become the victims by being excluded. This is why SE is always quick to make adjustments to the game whenever enough cries about a class pop up that are powerful enough to stop a lot of people from using it.

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Personally, I'd introduce a debuff for coils that gets worse the more you have of each class to punish stacking and encourage inclusion. It'd change depending on what you brought. Two Warriors would nerf everyone's defense. Three Dragoons would nerf outgoing damage. Two white mages would nerf raid-wide healing. I'd call it 'Inequity.'

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

Personally, I'd introduce a debuff for coils that gets worse the more you have of each class to punish stacking and encourage inclusion. It'd change depending on what you brought. Two Warriors would nerf everyone's defense. Three Dragoons would nerf outgoing damage. Two white mages would nerf raid-wide healing. I'd call it 'Inequity.'

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They already made parties which stack 2 of a job build up LB much more slowly than parties with all jobs unique starting in 2.1. After that there have been no further issues with job stacking such as seen in 2.0 when Coil groups were bringing 2x PLD and 2x BRD. There doesn't need any more discouraging of job stacking at this point TBH, most raid groups in this game go out of their way to have everyone a unique job not just to avoid the slower LB buildup but also because it makes loot distribution really easy and fair for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Kaith

This. I would say the only exception is A2S where WARs may viably out DPS some actual DPS.




People should be filtering out the adds on their Faust parse. Anyone citing a parse that includes the damage on adds is going to instantly lose credibility. I know that just targetting Faust my BRD does about 1125-1175 DPS so his numbers are accurate (My BRD will be slighly behind most as all my NQ Alex drops went to my PLD)



What gear on the PLD? Main reason I ask is because I just went and wailed on a dummy on my PLD using i200 weapon, 4 melded accs + 1 STR acc and I came out at 836 DPS at the point I ran TP dead (like 2 mins 40). That was with some food still on too.

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Same as War just with Ravana sword and shield

shield oath grants nothing for dmg, while drk can use grit and darkside, and warrior is warrior, that's the problem. All the other tanks get to do dmg but not you, the balancing is really bad in this game.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

shield oath grants nothing for dmg, while drk can use grit and darkside, and warrior is warrior, that's the problem. All the other tanks get to do dmg but not you, the balancing is really bad in this game.

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PLD can do plenty of damage, you just need to know when it's safe to swap to Sword Oath and be able to properly rotate your CDs so that you're not turning into an MP sponge.

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

PLD can do plenty of damage, you just need to know when it's safe to swap to Sword Oath and be able to properly rotate your CDs so that you're not turning into an MP sponge.

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By plenty, you mean the least out of all three tanks while outside of their defensive stance, and loads less while in their defensive stance? Costs a gcd to swap into either stance, takes a fifth of your mana (problematic in AS2 where you actually want mana for things like flash) and once in it--yeah its not terribly impressive. It's ---better--- certainly, but to say they do plenty of damage begs the question of some data and what you consider loads. If they actually mitigated most of the Alexander content better than other tanks (they dont) I'd feel more comfortable with them, or if their enmity allowed for offensive tanking (I tank 80% of Faust for instance in deliverance and can alternate debuffs, not -needing- to use my aggro combo very often at all. On my equal ilvl paladin? You better believe im spamming rage of halone--which kind of makes Royal Authority a tad useless.

Since people are talking about PLD DPS here :O

We just beat Alex 3 savage today, we used MNK/PLD instead of DRG/DRK like the other clear groups were running.

My PLD DPS at the end of the fight was 650.33, next week the DPS I have to do will go down since everyone will have weapons.

PLD isn't too far behind DRK at all, its just that DRG buffs BRD so you have a large net gain swapping those roles around. PLD needs to get piercing debuff added to RA is the correct buff to the class! :D

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Originally Posted by Zdenka

Since people are talking about PLD DPS here :O

We just beat Alex 3 savage today, we used MNK/PLD instead of DRG/DRK like the other clear groups were running.

My PLD DPS at the end of the fight was 650.33, next week the DPS I have to do will go down since everyone will have weapons.

PLD isn't too far behind DRK at all, its just that DRG buffs BRD so you have a large net gain swapping those roles around. PLD needs to get piercing debuff added to RA is the correct buff to the class! :D

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Would love to see an actual meter to this. No offense, lots of people claim numbers but without seeing a meter--its all just air.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Would love to see an actual meter to this. No offense, lots of people claim numbers but without seeing a meter--its all just air.

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I blanked out all other people in the kill and just left in just PLD, can see on the left the ACT parse has a different color for this attempt indicating a kill. errrr well it would be if i didnt have it selected

http://imgur.com/u6kyopY

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Originally Posted by Zdenka

I blanked out all other people in the kill and just left in just PLD, can see on the left the ACT parse has a different color for this attempt indicating a kill. errrr well it would be if i didnt have it selected

http://imgur.com/u6kyopY

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Well you delivered! Your damage taken looks pretty low--were you the OT for most of the fight (for when there is such a thing as OT/MT--I know a lot of it is duo tanking, but not all of it).

EDIT: Looks like the war is above you. Can you unblock out that line, minus their name. Curious to look at the difference. Although--to repeat it, rarely do I see anyone call out and then get delivered facts. I'm humbled ^_^

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Well you delivered! Your damage taken looks pretty low--were you the OT for most of the fight (for when there is such a thing as OT/MT--I know a lot of it is duo tanking, but not all of it).

EDIT: Looks like the war is above you. Can you unblock out that line, minus their name. Curious to look at the difference.

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I was MT entire first phase, and then like normal(most people?) I was MT for 3 of 6 Cascade sections. Right now I just wanted to post this to let people know what PLD can do, if I had been OT at the start of the fight I'd be over 700 DPS on the fight most likely. I also stop DPSing the adds to make sure I have 1000 TP entering Cascade sections, since PLD TP is terribad. So I lost a little DPS from that also.

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Originally Posted by Zdenka

I was MT entire first phase, and then like normal(most people?) I was MT for 3 of 6 Cascade sections. Right now I just wanted to post this to let people know what PLD can do, if I had been OT at the start of the fight I'd be over 700 DPS on the fight most likely. I also stop DPSing the adds to make sure I have 1000 TP entering Cascade sections, since PLD TP is terribad. So I lost a little DPS from that also.

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I started this xpac as a paladin but I've felt far more comftorable (damage, and frankly mitigation wise) on my warrior and opted to swap back. A1S just seemed to go smoother with it, but we are still there at the time being. It's good to see where your damage is with melded accessories (which I suppose anyone that is serious should have--I'm still gathering all my mats for the meldathon/cryathon).

Would love to see a tank pov from you on as1/as2/as3 some day--my general impression so far of paladin has been.
1) spamming rage a bit more than id like, especially when in sword oath.
2) divine veil is nice, but never really a game changer. Clemency is generally too slow to be effective as an mt, and so so as an ot. AS3 is a place sheltron feels more useful but looking at AS2 and going through as1--not as much? I don't know how you do as1 without having to hallowed ground the second buster for instance--but maybe you just count on that as a Paladin as a defensive cd as opposed to an 'oh crap' or mechanic specific cd like holmgang and living dead.

I only have DRK and PLD at 60 but from what I can tell right now,

PLD feels more comfortable to play, that's why I use it instead of DRK. Yes maybe I can do more damage on DRK, but I tunnel hard on DRK since I'm not used to it.

PLD's main drawbacks are right now, is that it's new combo's are great but don't add threat so you either need a Ninja or a ton of STR gear, or both. If you try to hold threat in Sword Oath now, you basically just have to spam Halone combo for the bonus threats and give up on that extra DPS. Depends how good your DPS/OT are and how much your healer has to heal, so it could vary. Basically PLD does less threat (comparatively) than it does in 2.0.

The other things are:

With high DPS checks, stoneskin and clemency are basically useless, you probably lose 3-4 encounter DPS for every cast. Divine Veil is good, its really good actually, if it wasn't on a 3 minute CD.

Shelltron :X yeahhhhh good and bad at same time

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Originally Posted by Zdenka

Shelltron :X yeahhhhh good and bad at same time

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Basically, its fantastic but nothing actually capitilizes on it. Rav Ex; you could time it with every blinding blade. Amazing!
Since then? Um...Auto attacks? Not really that impressive. In fact, cause of it I imagine kite shields are really a better choice over tower shields for total mitigation.

I actually kind of hate the route they went with physical and magic damage in Heavensward. It feels that, fight to fight, either Dark or Paladin will be (mitigation wise) loads better, while Warrior casually shrugs and tanks both 'good enough'.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Basically, its fantastic but nothing actually capitilizes on it. Rav Ex; you could time it with every blinding blade. Amazing!
Since then? Um...Auto attacks? Not really that impressive. In fact, cause of it I imagine kite shields are really a better choice over tower shields for total mitigation.

I actually kind of hate the route they went with physical and magic damage in Heavensward. It feels that, fight to fight, either Dark or Paladin will be (mitigation wise) loads better, while Warrior casually shrugs and tanks both 'good enough'.

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In a magical damage fight, WAR has every disadvantage the PLD has minus the DPS. WAR loses on parry and Raw Intuition (can still use it for wrath/abandon I guess?) just like how PLD loses shield and Bulwark/Sheltron.

My point is WAR isn't far ahead (if at all) of PLD in non-physical fights. Effective HP wise WAR can pull 7% more EHP than PLD but is still 4~10% Effective healing behind due to discrepancy in the healing bonus from Defiance and it not affecting healing abilities. A MT WAR "can" mitigate more than PLD in both physical and magical environments but it will ALWAYS be easier and safer to heal a PLD MT.

DRK is the odd one in that it mitigates magical damage a lot better than the other tanks (very short but effective CD against magical damage) but at the same time is the worst physical tank because it lacks to tools to handle it outside of 2 major relatively long CDs.

Do not get me wrong, PLD needs a buff on its basic enmity combo multiplier to be in line with the other tanks. It is sad that PLD FINALLY got an actual rotation, but still end up only spamming 1, 2, 3 to barely keep enmity.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

In a magical damage fight, WAR has every disadvantage the PLD has minus the DPS. WAR loses on parry and Raw Intuition (can still use it for wrath/abandon I guess?) just like how PLD loses shield and Bulwark/Sheltron.

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Come on now, PLD loses parry too. It's really Raw Intuition and 90s Foresight vs. 120s Foresight and Shield/Bulwark/Sheltron. It's a bigger loss on the PLD.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

My point is WAR isn't far ahead (if at all) of PLD in non-physical fights.

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I think you're seriously underestimating the usefulness of being able to have SP up 100% of the time and Inner Beast ready every 20s (less actually).

A thing that could help PLD's shield oath DPS (sword oath is fine) would be adjusting shield swipe to be an actual DPS gain once more, either a flat potency increase or something like "ignores the damage penalty from shield oath" since its, well, a shield attack. Using shield swipe is fun but at the moment its only occasionally viable and only used for its TP restore.

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

A thing that could help PLD's shield oath DPS (sword oath is fine) would be adjusting shield swipe to be an actual DPS gain once more, either a flat potency increase or something like "ignores the damage penalty from shield oath" since its, well, a shield attack. Using shield swipe is fun but at the moment its only occasionally viable and only used for its TP restore.

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Would be nice if shield swipe granted a shield spikes buff, where blocked attacks return damage (sort of like vengeance but only on blocked attacks). Would make the move worthwhile in a normal rotation, gives sheltron a purpose outside of large physical tank busters (force refresh) and helps with PLD's seriously lacking AoE damage too.

Also the only other thing both PLD and DRK need is a means to restore TP. Putting a TP restore on Tempered Will would probably be okay, and maybe letting, I dunno, Dark Arts Carve and Spit drain some TP would make it a more interesting skill than what it currently is.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

Come on now, PLD loses parry too. It's really Raw Intuition and 90s Foresight vs. 120s Foresight and Shield/Bulwark/Sheltron. It's a bigger loss on the PLD.

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Congrats, you lose the worst stat on the class where it scales the worst anyways. My point was the bonus from wrath which people, for some reason that eludes me, seem to envy us for. lol

Are you seriously trying so hard to exaggerate the physical mitigation issue? Foresight? youserious? I mean REALLY? Foresight? Arguably the WORST CD IN THE GAME.

lolBulwark has always been considered a shitty CD for tank busters anyways. It's not guaranteed. Sheltron + Bulwark are what make shield block equivalent to Raw Intuition. Reliability and reuse are very important! Raw Intuition is guaranteed 20s of 20% physical reduction. EDIT: Let's not forget it's 90s CD vs 180s.

Sheltron can be popped by the auto attack right before your buster even if you time it well. Bulwark is only 60% boost, with a tower shield it's poop, with a kite shield you still have a 20% chance of it not working. Bulwark at its best is 15s of 10~20% average physical damage reduction, making Bulwark an over-glorified Foresight. Most PLDs couple Bulwark with Foresight anyways lol. Coupling two meh CDs to make a good one. EDIT: WAR loses a better CD in Raw Intuition than PLD in Bulwark and Sheltron.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

I think you're seriously underestimating the usefulness of being able to have SP up 100% of the time and Inner Beast ready every 20s (less actually).

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Do you play WAR? Because I think if you do, you wouldn't bring up Storm Path all the time.

1- If you have a WAR and ANY other tank, ALL TANKS benefit from Storm Path.
2- ANY WAR worth their salt will not put up SP 100% of the time. SPECIALLY as MT. Putting SP 100% means you either can't do SE (Your combo is SP > BB) to keep sub-optimal enmity, or you lose 50 potency each time you apply SP compared to BB, and lose massive enmity.

So based on point 2, WAR's enmity and DPS plummet if they keep SP up 100%. Since everyone here is crying about WAR DPS being high, that won't be relative anymore.

Oh, and as if there is any situation in this game where a WAR will pop IB every 20s or less because they need to. WARs spend most of their time in Deliverance for FC. Again, every IB used is 1 less FC used, lowering WAR's DPS, which is the whole reason for this forum outrage. Even when main tanking, WAR will slip into Deliverance during fluff damage and go back to Defiance to IB busters.

Let's stop talking about things in vacuum and talk about practical uses.

Comparing mitigation options in a magical fight:

WAR combines either ToB+IB for 150% eHP, or Veng+IB for 178%, or all three for 214% max eHP. In all cases, WAR is behind 4~15% effective healing (specially when ToB is used). WAR can, but has no reason to, incorporate Holmgang to save CDs on a buster. But it's very risky and stresses healers.
PLD uses Rampart for 125% eHP, Sentinel for 166.67%, or both for 207% max eHP. All cases PLD's effective healing received is increased by as much. PLD can effectively take 0 damage by incorporating HG into its CD rotation.

In a magical fight, WAR has his own SP, yes. PLD will receive SP or INT Down or both from the OT and/or MNK. So WAR bringing its own SP is irrelevant. Remember, this is a team game.

No matter how you spin it, WAR is not in a "clear" advantage over PLD.

Stop arguing that in vacuum one tank is better than everyone else, specially when disregarding party set ups. It's stupid.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Congrats, you lose the worst stat on the class where it scales the worst anyways. My point was the bonus from wrath which people, for some reason that eludes me, seem to envy us for. lol

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definitely not clear and the benefit from wrath parry is less than the benefit from normal parry to the PLD.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

blah blah blah foresight

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Reread it, foresight is mentioned for completeness. It's also better for the WAR so it represents a bigger loss to the WAR, but you'd actually have to stop raging nonsensically to get that.

Shield is a big deal, mostly because it helps smooth out damage and it's always active that you don't even have to think about. Bulwark turns it into something mostly reliable (depending on your initial block rate), and sheltron while iffy due to it's implementation just adds to it.

I also forgot RoH, so there's that. Which, sure, an OT PLD can bring, but if you've got an OT using RoH that's not terribly optimal in terms of raid damage.

I don't see how you can honestly think the WAR loses as much as the PLD when we're talking losing abilities vs. pure physical damage.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Do you play WAR? Because I think if you do, you wouldn't bring up Storm Path all the time.

etc, etc, etc

Stop arguing that in vacuum one tank is better than everyone else. It's stupid.

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Inner Beast is enough to put the WAR on par with the PLD against magic, all the rest is extra. Better if we're talking about frequent damage. SP on the WAR just means you can do it on your own and if tanks have to split (A1) or the OT isn't there (A4) then the WAR still gets it. Bringing up the INT down via some other class (DRK/MNK) is sort of pointless because that stacks with SP so it's not an either or situation.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

Snip.

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I wasn't raging at all. My point is WAR loses as much as PLD in a magical fight. Even if WAR is slightly ahead in mitigation, and it isn't, I provided numbers, and WAR is still behind in effective healing, which is as important.

My point with parry is that DRK and WAR scale completely from parry (even if the scaling is poop). PLD's parry is reduced by whatever block rate they have. Look at the following example:

Let's assume at 750 parry (random number) you get 20% parry chance and assume PLD's shield has a 20% block chance;
WAR has a base of 20% parry chance, and from 22% to 30% based on Wrath. The stat is useless while Raw Intuition is up for 100% parry.
PLD will have a 16% parry chance. Since block precedes parry checks. During Bulwark total 80% block chance, parry chance is down to 4%.

So PLD losing parry isn't the same as WAR/DRK losing parry and is far less impactful.

Foresight is an overlooked CD anyways. WAR wouldn't use it even in physical fights outside of "it's up so I used it". PLDs couple it with Bulwark to increase average mitigation of Bulwark + Foresight.

Inner Beast is pure Awesome. It is the single best mitigation skill in the game. But I didn't argue that. Storm Path is great, and I didn't deny that.

You keep bringing up sub-optimal situationalities as evidence when it isn't. In a fight like A1/As1, you can keep the monk with the PLD that needs the INT down and have the WAR keep SP, there, both tanks have 10% less magical damage received. Any other setup doesn't matter. You also seem to ignore the whole thing about SP isn't optimal to be kept 100% of the time. There, I gave you a more optimized situation.

You are over-glorifying SP when in application it's not that vital or optimal to be up 100% of the time. No good WAR keeps SP up 100% of the time and that's my whole point. I would agree with you if SP had the same potency as SE or BB and SP and SE both lasted 30 seconds. That way WAR's rotation would be to apply SP, SE, then BB. Oh but even then, due to the existence of Fracture and IB/FC, they will drop. So it wouldn't be optimal/possible to keep both up.

Again, you are leaving too many important factors out. WAR is NOT at any advantage over PLD in a magical fight outside of MT DPS.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

I wasn't raging at all.

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all caps, bold, underlined about an ability that was mentioned both for the WAR and the PLD? I don't have any other way to describe that.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

My point is WAR loses as much as PLD in a magical fight.

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that's the part I disagreed with

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Even if WAR is slightly ahead in mitigation, and it isn't, I provided numbers, and WAR is still behind in effective healing, which is as important.

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The 4% base healing efficiency isn't as big a deal because of overhealing.

Defiance not boosting healing efficiency is a significant disadvantage. But WAR's mitigation advantage (IB every 20s + ToB every 2min + Vengeance every 2min vs. Rampart every 90s, Sentinel every 3min and HG every ... I forget 5 or 6 min?) pretty much erases that completely and then some.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

You keep bringing up sub-optimal situationalities as evidence when it isn't. In a fight like A1/As1, you can keep the monk with the PLD that needs the INT down and have the WAR keep SP, there, both tanks have 10% less magical damage received. Any other setup doesn't matter.

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As opposed to WAR/DRK where you could stick the MNK with the WAR? Or drop the MNK for DRG/BRD? WAR being the one with SP means flexibility and doesn't make you reliant on other classes in a way that PLD is in your scenario.

A1 & A4 aren't just "situationalities", they're actual current raiding scenarios where a PLD MT can't just depend on a WAR OT providing SP for him. Which is why you can't just assume the PLD always has access to the relevant debuffs.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

You also seem to ignore the whole thing about SP isn't optimal to be kept 100% of the time. There, I gave you a more optimized situation.

You are over-glorifying SP when in application it's not that vital or optimal to be up 100% of the time.

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INT down is this amazing debuff that made MNK so desirable for FCoB fights that had magic damage. SP is stronger.

You're also not really losing as much potency going from SE > BB to SE > SP as you think. It's only 40 potency at most every 6 GCD. It's actually less than that with Fracture and IB or FC usage. When you throw in brutal swing and auto attacks, it works out to something like 2%? of your total DPS. So if you're MT pulling out 700 dps, then you lose something like 14 dps whenever you want to have -10% raid damage (all types) up all the time? It's a definite advantage for the WAR in magic fights.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

Stuff...

Defiance not boosting healing efficiency is a significant disadvantage. But WAR's mitigation advantage (IB every 20s + ToB every 2min + Vengeance every 2min vs. Rampart every 90s, Sentinel every 3min and HG every ... I forget 5 or 6 min?) pretty much erases that completely and then some.

..other stuff.

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Based on the frequency of CD usage, isn't WAR ahead of PLD in physical fights as well then? RI is half the CD of Bulwark and is 100% instead of just 60%. WAR can still parry with IB up and PLD can't parry with Sheltron (assuming PLD and WAR couple Sheltron/IB with another CD). And Sheltron is not as reliable as it should be (kinda sucks, I wish it had more reliability).

Edit: Also throwing all CDs at physical attacks: WAR can stack up to an impressive reliable 267% eHP while PLD is somewhere between 260~272% based on shield type and "successful" blocks. Let's not forget WAR can throw "everything" every 2 minutes while PLD can't until the 3 minute mark.

Sadly though, mitigation isn't looked at at how often you can use the CDs on fluff since CDs are only used for busters.

This gives us a new fact here: The more frequent tank busters are, the more the WAR will mitigate over the other two tanks.

Point is: As long as Tank busters are on a ~1 min or longer timer, PLD will mitigate more physical damage than WAR but roughly the same in magical fights, DRK will mitigate more magical damage than WAR but far behind both WAR and PLD in physical fights.

PLD is still by far the tank with the most utility options. DRK is the tank that got the short stick really.

I don't want to argue any more though. Let's assume you are right and WAR mitigates more magical damage, and I honestly do not think you are. WAR being a versatile tank is the least it can get for being the tank that doesn't "shine" in either situation to keep a reasonable balance. Specially when most statics are forcing their PLDs and DRKs to level DRK and PLD respectively because they want the most optimal MT (and WAR isn't in neither situation).

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Let's assume you are right and WAR mitigates more magical damage, and I honestly do not think you are. WAR being a versatile tank is the least it can get for being the tank that doesn't "shine" in either situation to keep a reasonable balance. Specially when most statics are forcing their PLDs and DRKs to level DRK and PLD respectively because they want the most optimal MT (and WAR isn't in neither situation).

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Alright, but I just want to be clear on where I'm coming from. I don't think WAR is too good or needs to be nerfed. It's mostly in a good place. The only complaints I'd have about it are healing abilities not working in Defiance (which is silly) and Holmgang is trying to do too much for one ability and should be split up into 2 abilities (invulnerability and the lock in place).

I do think the PLD & DRK could use some buffs. Nothing major like WAR 2.0 > 2.1, but they could use a little more help in a few areas.

The only possible nerf all tanks might face is if they're encroaching too closely on the DPS of actual DPS classes. But that's a completely separate issue.