Why does Enochian have to be a pain in the neck?

I sometimes use Scathe for an extra GCD in Umbral Ice to make sure I don't push into Fire with only 66% of my mana. Granted, I don't know that it's a good idea to do that, but it does happen occasionally.

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Originally Posted by raisetheglass1

I sometimes use Scathe for an extra GCD in Umbral Ice to make sure I don't push into Fire with only 66% of my mana. Granted, I don't know that it's a good idea to do that, but it does happen occasionally.

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I usually go through a checklist in that situation:
-is it worthwhile to cast thunder on this mob (or next mob)
-do I have time to cast blizzard 1 before said mob dies

If I get no on both ill scathe but really its not a make or break situation imo. If someone notices I just stood there for a half second rather than scathe were either in really good shape or some on needs to pay more attention to their own ish :)

I don't have room for Blizzard 1 on my main bar unless I replace Scathe, and I'm currently on the fence as to whether I should do that. Scathe is nice to have for some fights (think, running from those orbs in Ravana) and if it's on my second bar it's automatically a little slower to cast.

I'm a huge fan of scathe, I use it all the time for those mob-is-about-to-die moments. Last mob of dungeon trash B3 > Scathe. It also gives you a chance to use an oGCD during the GCD, for example lethargy on adds.

if each fire 4 added 2 seconds of AF it would buff blm dps by a bit. that would add about 170 potency per fire chain, that's quite a bit. Changes like those would make us a bit op. You can currently squeeze in 3 fire 4s before AF drop and have some change left over, this is done all the time when there is a firestarter loaded. If the 2 seconds of AF were to be added per fire 4 you'd give blms an additional 10 seconds total (5 fire 4s in that particular rotation per cast) of astral fire. It would be way too much, this would result in a nerf to blm or a buff to other classes, and a waste of time.

i feel like I should chime in here.

ive played blm for nearly the whole time ive played this game. at first I was pretty bad and thinking I was doing good, finish my rotation, refresh mana I can dodge stuff you know the usual im pro nonsense when your not.

then I started getting better using my buffs or ogcd's to assist the group. still thinking I was a great blm but far from it. yeah I could aoe stuff and heck when it was still possible do the infinite flare rotation. burn down single enemies easy enough and deal with mechanics if I really had too.

but really all that was just a prelude to actually being a good blm never mind getting to be a great or expert blm.

basically adding on top of all that other stuff the knowledge of every fight where to stand, where to move too, how to dodge correctly, using ethereal manipulation properly, target swapping to maximise casts as oppose to dropping a cast due to mob dying before finishing, all whilst maintaining dps

I got good at all this stuff. not saying Im a pro blm who never screws up but ive been able to hold my own and do better than most on blm due to my commitment to using the class.

then hw comes out and we have the same levelling issues we did going from 1-50 with mana regens not lining up, spell costs not being familiar and once they do we gain a level and it changes. not being able to utilise some things the same way we were use to (x-ethers) and all the new skills to play with and incorporate into a new rotation that wasn't really fixed until level 60.

ive spoken out against the changes in other threads and how hard it can be to maintain enochian, the inability to use procs as we once could certain skills like thunder seeming useless or physick being now useless as an emergency heal.

now though after what 2months or so of heavensward being out I find that I cant be as harsh with my assessment as I originally was. yes our new skills are very unforgiving if you are trying to push very top dps as in cutting very close to refresh timers dropping off, sometimes they do cus you know gotta push that last cast.
yes mechanics can screw with us and force us to lose enochian on occasion but it isn't usually so bad its all the time. (even in neverreap) someone mentioned a4 and quarantine, the only time ive ever lost enochian going there is if it was literally as I was casting bliz4 with the last few seconds left, usually I will either straight up refresh enochain (transpose, bliz 4) or cast fire 1 /3 to get astral back.

ive found that positioning is the biggest single factor to controlling our dps and making sure to keep a good distance so that if mobs move we still keep los.
rearranging key layouts or if like me hotbars was and is a big boost to maintaining a good rotation and skill usage.
knowing the fights and what the enemies will do so you can minimise your movement and know when to push your (luck) dps.
understand that tanks will move around because they have so much aoe to dodge.
keep your distance from other people wherever possible as to not be surrounded by more than needed aoe markers.

this was just a few things I had to relearn to be able to utilise the new skills more effiecnetly and keep them up as much as I can. yes I make mistakes and sometimes I misjudge something and lose enochian or have to abandon ley lines, some content is rougher than others for this but in truth it really is a case of just having to learn the job over again.

we have a very good set of skills that may or may not need tweaking. but seriously it seems that really all it takes is some practice and pushing your limits to learn the new boundaries. yes we have to think quickly and make judgement calls on what is our best course of action but ill tell you what losing enochian or taking fatal damage is a no brainer don't have enough time for bliz 3 bliz 4 then transpose / bliz 4 which btw always you to use that thundercloud proc or extra fire 4 after first enochian refresh


oh and whoever it was who said we don't double flare anymore.. so you gave up on aoe altogether did you.? cus I use it all the time in dungeons.

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oh and whoever it was who said we don't double flare anymore.. so you gave up on aoe altogether did you.? cus I use it all the time in dungeons.

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BLM kinda lost its aoe dps identity. We are far behind the #1 and not far behind #3-4.
I rarely double flare because i would rather keep covert for 6x fire IV or not fuck my dps up for 6-9 seconds after flaring

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Originally Posted by hallena

BLM kinda lost its aoe dps identity. We are far behind the #1 and not far behind #3-4.

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Have you tried thunder in an AoE rotation? Since they boosted thundercloud to 10% it's a rapefest at times on medium sized groups.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Have you tried thunder in an AoE rotation? Since they boosted thundercloud to 10% it's a rapefest at times on medium sized groups.

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What is your AoE rotation with thunder?

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Originally Posted by Bahd_Monkey

What is your AoE rotation with thunder?

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Sharpcast > Thunder > Thundercloud (different mob) > 2.x AoE rotation with thundercloud procs as they pop, tossing it on a new mob each time

Thundercloud procs early in the rotation mean 710 potency for zero MP, and they just roll faster downhill the more you get. It's not uncommon to get 3-4 thundercloud procs before you hit your first Flare. Good RNG will blow any SMN out of the water, bad RNG will put you a little below a good SMN.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Sharpcast > Thunder > Thundercloud (different mob) > 2.x AoE rotation with thundercloud procs as they pop, tossing it on a new mob each time

Thundercloud procs early in the rotation mean 710 potency for zero MP, and they just roll faster downhill the more you get. It's not uncommon to get 3-4 thundercloud procs before you hit your first Flare. Good RNG will blow any SMN out of the water, bad RNG will put you a little below a good SMN.

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Okay, no offense but I don't think you know what a SMN can do in AoE if you think Thundercloud will let BLM compete with SMN. The difference is extraordinarily vast, you could chain cast Thundercloud and you'd still get absolutely destroyed as BLM in any dungeon pull or A2S.

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Originally Posted by hallena

Except when mechanic screw you over. Quarantine in A4 for exemple. You can't see it coming, its instan and its random if he'll target you or not

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Now that I've cleared A4 and started savage (working on A1S) I can appreciate what you were saying. The first few runs really caught me off guard. Although, I still believe in what I said though, the more I play/practice the more I am finding that knowing the fight is paramount. We will still get caught from time to time (broken screen yet anyone?) but overall I am happy with the changes.

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Originally Posted by chidarake

we have a very good set of skills that may or may not need tweaking. but seriously it seems that really all it takes is some practice and pushing your limits to learn the new boundaries.

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I agree completely. The more I practice and run dungeons, the better I am at keeping Enochian and getting the rotation right.

Take Neverreap as an example, it is not the most BLM friendly however, I love to run it because it puts me in situations where I need to think on my feet and try different strategies, all the while attempting to keep Enochian going. It now becomes more about timings and positions then the actual mechanics, and more often than not, is my own fault if I lose Enochian.

I am still learning though, but am better than I was last week and will be better again next week.

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Originally Posted by hallena

BLM kinda lost its aoe dps identity. We are far behind the #1 and not far behind #3-4.
I rarely double flare because i would rather keep covert for 6x fire IV or not fuck my dps up for 6-9 seconds after flaring

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I can agree on keeping it for the opener if your just about to hit a boss but if your a couple packs back and given the time it takes things to die at the moment there really isn't a reason not to double flare. the same goes for renewing enochian, just don't do it on last pack if you wont have time to start a boss without it.

although that being said not starting with the opener or having enochian is not such a big deal as it wouldn't be long before you can pull of the chain and chances are youll still get to use the skill a couple times in the fight given there length. << not referring to raids where you def want them on first pull.

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Originally Posted by raisetheglass1

I don't have room for Blizzard 1 on my main bar unless I replace Scathe, and I'm currently on the fence as to whether I should do that. Scathe is nice to have for some fights (think, running from those orbs in Ravana) and if it's on my second bar it's automatically a little slower to cast.

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You could just Sharp - Swift - F1 - F3 during the orbs, if you get targeted. I think the only time I scathe now is dungeon trash at 2%.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

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That is highly dependent on how many mobs there are, how fast they die, and how much downtime there is between pulls.

At around 6 mobs in the group, the ST damage starts to fall behind. When the mobs have low HP and die in under 30 seconds, the DoT damage drops off fast. When there's time between groups for the SMN to recover timers, they get a huge boost.

Expert roulette will vary greatly based on the rest of the group. Fast single pack tank vs slow everything-til-the-gate tank, dps healer vs cure and doze healer, some groups SMN have a higher potential, others it's BLM. But if you are destroyed by a SMN in similar gear in every case, you are doing something wrong.

SMN has a huge disadvantage in A2 (never done savage, but I'm guessing mostly the same thing with higher HP, harder hitting mobs, a few new mechanics); Aetherflow has a 60 second timer. BLM recovers much, much faster in a constant fight. Groups of 3-4 is where Thundercloud spam starts to shine as well.

Equally skilled and geared players, smn will be ahead in aoe. Don't believe it then you clearly have never run into good summoners, lol
That is just the situation of things now, i guess the countless threads about summoners needing a buff has worked to their advantage after all

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Originally Posted by Maero

Equally skilled and geared players, smn will be ahead in aoe. Don't believe it then you clearly have never run into good summoners, lol

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I never said BLM would always be ahead in AoE. I said BLM has potential to do more damage in some instances, and will come out ahead with good RNG on thundercloud procs. If you don't believe me then all you've seen are BLMs with a "ARR AoE" or "F4 only" mentality.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

SMN has a huge disadvantage in A2 (never done savage, but I'm guessing mostly the same thing with higher HP, harder hitting mobs, a few new mechanics); Aetherflow has a 60 second timer. BLM recovers much, much faster in a constant fight. Groups of 3-4 is where Thundercloud spam starts to shine as well.

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I am not going to argue with someone who thinks SMN has a disadvantage in A2 or A2S.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

I am not going to argue with someone who thinks SMN has a disadvantage in A2 or A2S.

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Compared to a BLM in the AoE department, they do.

SMN AoE skills:

• Deathflare once a minute
• Bane/Painflare 3 times a minute
• Garuda AoE tickle twice a minute
• Garuda big hit every 5 minutes

In a simple BLM AoE rotation I can get off 9 FIIs and a 3 Flares every 63 seconds without any CDs. So yeah, having those long CDs is a disadvantage for SMN in A2.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Compared to a BLM in the AoE department, they do.

SMN AoE skills:

• Garuda big hit every 5 minutes

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It's 3 minutes now.

Also, what numbers are you pulling on A2 ? Post a parse screen w/ your gear and I will happily prove you wrong.

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Originally Posted by OneWingedSora

Also, what numbers are you pulling on A2 ? Post a parse screen w/ your gear and I will happily prove you wrong.

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I don't use a parser, but on a PF group I topped a comparably geared SMN in all but one run, according to one of our healers.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

I don't use a parser, but on a PF group I topped a comparably geared SMN in all but one run, according to one of our healers.

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Sorry to break it to you, but it is a well known fact that a good SMN just crushes a BLM of the same skill in heavy AoE fights. Many SMNs are parsing more than 2K in A2 Savage. If you can get me a comparable BLM parse I'll eat my words.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

I don't use a parser, but on a PF group I topped a comparably geared SMN in all but one run, according to one of our healers.

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Most SMNs I play with, regardless of gear, don't even come close to tapping the SMN AoE potential, but you can say that about 99.99% of PUGs including those in PFs. The facts you listed, you forgot a bunch of things including Shadow Flare, B2, and a bit more I could go over but since you seem to be stuck in the ARR era where BLM is top tier AoE and SMN is just alright at it, I'm not sure if I could persuade you.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

I don't use a parser, but on a PF group I topped a comparably geared SMN in all but one run, according to one of our healers.

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Well that summoner was garbage

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Originally Posted by Waliel

You could just Sharp - Swift - F1 - F3 during the orbs, if you get targeted. I think the only time I scathe now is dungeon trash at 2%.

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As I recall, right after this point in the fight I have an opportunity to use Raging Strikes + Convert for a round of 6 Fire 4s, so I don't want to blow Sharpcast here. Not a big deal either way unless you're trying to way over-optomize just for the hell of it, or doing carry/sell runs. I did end up replacing it with Blizzard 1 on my main bar tho, because I found a place where I consistently wanted to use Blizzard 1.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I'll mention something I suggested earlier in the thread: how about changing Scathe so that it extends Enochian/Astral Fire/Umbral Ice by some amount? The ability was designed to be used with movement in mind, so I still think it'd be a good fit.

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Great suggestion Duelle!

I would be happy with Duelle's suggestion of Scathe extending Enochian / Astral Fire / Umbral Ice, since it's Instant Cast. It makes sense and feels like a way to run / get out of the way and Instant Cast Scathe before settling back in.

Or Fire IV / Blizz IV suggestion to refresh is another simple change by SE as well that would help the situation.

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Originally Posted by luizf_sp

Sorry to break it to you, but it is a well known fact that a good SMN just crushes a BLM of the same skill in heavy AoE fights. Many SMNs are parsing more than 2K in A2 Savage. If you can get me a comparable BLM parse I'll eat my words.

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Gotta love the logic there.

"We don't like Black Mages being AoE kings, so we're going to buff your consistent single target damage and gut your aoe by nerfing flare, not introducing new ether potions, and adding in timers that really only line up well when hitting one person."

Dang. Now I'm a summoner.

"We're also giving Summoners more AoE potential, a slap on the wrist for baning more than 3 targets, abilities that make dotting up easier, and keeping their single target damage roughly in the same ball park."

...FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

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This is why i dont understand the flare nerf. If BLM's aoe was so op it needed a nerf then why did they give summoner aoe stronger than blm had in ARR

whats funny about the flare nerf is that there isn't many places that we could get to hit more than 5-6 mobs anyways, and on average id say its 3-5 in a pulled pack right now due to most tanks being pussies and not trying to pull more.

plus anyway the biggest nerf was no more ether use as that limits blm aoe quite a fair amount, so if they add another easy to get relative ether then we will be back in business to triple flare.

i must say though ive been levelling smn recently and they do have a strong aoe rotation but its a little rng based on bane usage and shadow flare has quite a limited range, but in a nice tight area or with a tank who knows how to keep the pack nice and tight they wreck stuff very quickly.

sry for being rude but why are there so many complains about enochian and ppl wanting an easier way to solve the problem (i.e someone wanted scathe to refresh enochian).
When HW came out i was so curious of finding a new way to mash out the highest dps while learning a new way to fight with blm's.
If ur not satisfied with the class then change to another that suits u better. or u could try find a rotation that suits u and just practice and get used to it, its not that hard to keep 2 buffs up. i mean sometimes i just refresh enochian without even thinking cause im used to it now.

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Originally Posted by hallena

This is why i dont understand the flare nerf. If BLM's aoe was so op it needed a nerf then why did they give summoner aoe stronger than blm had in ARR

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Diversity, BLM has high Single target damage, Low AOE damage

SMN has high Multi-Target damage, But low Single target.

It works. i personally do not like the flare nerf, but i understand it.

But let's be honest here, All ARR BLM did was Thunder-> fire fire fire fire fire flare bllizzard (mp gain) thunder--> fire fire fire fire fire flare. etc.....you get the point.

Enochain felt like a nice change, it just makes you start thinking more, you have to really KNOW the fight to decide when you can plant safelty.

Regarding Enochian, I was thinking ... can't you just refresh it early if you know you are going to move?

You can refresh it any time right? Just a Blizzard III -> Blizzard IV. No CDs involved.

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Originally Posted by Blood-Aki

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The way blm raid now is not much different than the way blm raided back in ARR. The rotation is slightly different but the "you have to think more now!" part doesn't matter because both in ARR and Heavensward you want to move as little as possible.
As for flare nerf, its not for diversity or else they wouldn't have nerfed holy aswell.
Edit : your ARR's rotation is dead wrong btw

We got a cool new toy for astral and umbral (blizzard/fire 4) why didnt we get a new aoe move tied to enochian? I used to hold off using enochian in aoe situations to "save" it for single target nuke situations before I realized how easy it is to throw in a blizzard 4 after transpose (also giving u more time for mana regen. Is this wrong?Havent seen much talk about it). How would you guys feel about removing the nerf to flare while under the effects of enochian? Maybe not the same flare we had in arr but atleast better than what we have currently? What would be "balanced"? Im not asking to dethrone smn as aoe king but maybe make us a little more respectable? If not, well I'm still content tbh. I dont believe we're the weakest in the aoe department and our single target is relatively competitive.

Edit: so I went back to aikaals guide and saw that he updated the aoe rotation with use of enochian. I trust his math but I dont like it. This leads me further into thinking enochian should provide either an aoe move that can only be used under enochian or that enocian should un nerf, to an extent, flare. I think 3.0 blm should be about maintaining enochian at all times (even aoe situations). Seems like a silly oversite that it is actually a dps loss to maintain enochian in a large aoe situation. My 2 cents

Ummm Blm does not have "low" aoe damage, it is just less then smn now. So for many of the fights we are #2 in aoe... c'est la vie
Removing flare nerf under enochian tbh would be too much, sooo many other classes would complain
@ Bishop yes you can refresh at any time though if you move as little as possible a refresh should not be needed, especially if you just started FireIV's.
Some fights that i know there will be movement i cast a Fire instead of an IV so when i am refreshing usually i have a Firestarter proc

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Originally Posted by hallena

The way blm raid now is not much different than the way blm raided back in ARR. The rotation is slightly different but the "you have to think more now!" part doesn't matter because both in ARR and Heavensward you want to move as little as possible.
As for flare nerf, its not for diversity or else they wouldn't have nerfed holy aswell.
Edit : your ARR's rotation is dead wrong btw

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Wrong, first off, my "rotation" was not an actual rotation, it was a rough example of how mindless blms played back then, so that is simply a failure to understand on your part.

second: no, it isn't "Slightly different" unless you are are still playing ARR style blm, which means you're probably the lowest DPS in the group. managing enochain plus the tier 4 spells (which are your primary source of damage) does take some thinking. otherwise, good luck keeping it up. because unlike in arr moving gave you no harsh penatly, but now if you don't try to keep enochain up when facing mechanics it will fall off, leaving you dealing lower damage untill recast, But this is something only BLMS who know what they are doing will understand.

Flare was nerfed because it was heavly abused for aoe damage in addition to BLMs high single target damage, holy is a WHM spell, which is a healer job. (but it was nerfed for the same reason) tho i don't like it personally, we do have aero 3 and assize which are by no means weak.

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Wrong, first off, my "rotation" was not an actual rotation, it was a rough example of how mindless blms played back then, so that is simply a failure to understand on your part.

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But thats wrong. Blm's rotation was simple but what made a good black mage pull good numbers was knowing the fight enough to pre position yourself at specific spots and minimizing movement. Dps difference between a good and bad blm was very noticable. This isnt "mindless"

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second: no, it isn't "Slightly different" unless you are are still playing ARR style blm, which means you're probably the lowest DPS in the group. managing enochain plus the tier 4 spells (which are your primary source of damage) does take some thinking. otherwise, good luck keeping it up. because unlike in arr moving gave you no harsh penatly, but now if you don't try to keep enochain up when facing mechanics it will fall off, leaving you dealing lower damage untill recast, But this is something only BLMS who know what they are doing will understand.

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Managing enochian isn't hard when you know the fight enough to position yourself in places where you know you won't have to move too much. Which again is how blm played in ARR. It's more punishing to move now but it doesn't change the fact in both ARR and heavensward, the whole playstyle was about minimizing movement. The current "rotation" is just as simple. fire IV x2 - fire I - Fire IV x2 outside of the opener. when we did floor 1 yesterday i phased out through most of the fight and ended with 1050 dps

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Flare was nerfed because it was heavly abused for aoe damage in addition to BLMs high single target damage, holy is a WHM spell, which is a healer job. (but it was nerfed for the same reason) tho i don't like it personally, we do have aero 3 and assize which are by no means weak.

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And summoner's current aoe cannot? Hint : summoner making alex savage floor 2's enrage timer and hard pulls a non issue

I have no problem with knowing where to place mys lf if LL wasn't such an aoe magnet.