Turning DRK into a tank was a huge mistake.

Here's my 2 cents on the subject of VIT vs STR accessories. PLD has a shield that has a passive mitigation therefore they can use STR accessories to give a bit more POW considering they loose 20% damage from Shield Oath. WAR Defiance gives 25% more hp but takes away 25% damage, therefore they can use STR over VIT accessories because they get the added HP from their tank stance and need to make up their damage reduction from Defiance. DRK on the other hand has Grit which works exactly like Shield Oath, but they don't have the passive mitigation from a shield, and they don't have the HP boost given to WAR with Defiance. What they do have is Darkside, which gives a 15% damage boost. THEREFORE they get the damage boost that other tanks get from wearing STR accessories BUILT INTO their job and so it frees them up to wear VIT accessories to make up the downside of not having a shield for passive mitigation or a 25% HP boost from Defiance. Sure you can use STR, thats fine, its more POW POW, but I think the job really shines as a tank when wearing VIT.

Regarding STR gear. I have to point out that VIT doesn't.... DOESN'T give you more Defense or Magical Defense... Someone with 2000 more vit is same squishy... VIT is only necessary or helps if there's a cap in some mega boss of raid attack... Or if the healer is not too alert to your vit. By far, when I use tanks I prefer to go STR, even if I still using CDs and stuff.

If only there was a way str would affect defensive abilities... OH WAIT...

Clemency: 1200 potency (based off attack power)
Equilibrium: 1200 Potency (based off attack power)
Swapping full vit for full str changes the heal from ~3400(vit) to ~4450

Inner Beast and Souleater both heal equal to attack damage at 300 and 260/500(DA) potency respectively. I know with inner beast its easy to get 2k/3kcrit heals with berserk
while pure vit drops it by almost a quarter

Not to mention passive healing increases with bloodbath up.

Not only this, tank dps DOES matter. The longer the fight goes on the scarier mechanics can get. Some fights have a hard enrage (ravana) but others ramp up damage till the tank dies, Alexander floor 4 (extra laser burst each time he does the tank buster). In both these fights DPS matters tremendously as you can avoid an extra tank buster or hard enrage by moving faster through the fight.

HP matters as far as you can soak a buster hit and possibly one auto attack, but beyond that, any extra is just that. When learning, VIT is nice to give breathing room, but when you want to down a boss before an enrage, you need DPS wherever you can get it, so you swap enough Vit pieces out so you can still survive a hit but contribute as much damage as possible.

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Originally Posted by Aegrus

If only there was a way str would affect defensive abilities... OH WAIT...

Clemency: 1200 potency (based off attack power)
Equilibrium: 1200 Potency (based off attack power)
Swapping full vit for full str changes the heal from ~3400(vit) to ~4450

Inner Beast and Souleater both heal equal to attack damage at 300 and 260/500(DA) potency respectively. I know with inner beast its easy to get 2k/3kcrit heals with berserk
while pure vit drops it by almost a quarter

Not to mention passive healing increases with bloodbath up.

Not only this, tank dps DOES matter. The longer the fight goes on the scarier mechanics can get. Some fights have a hard enrage (ravana) but others ramp up damage till the tank dies, Alexander floor 4 (extra laser burst each time he does the tank buster). In both these fights DPS matters tremendously as you can avoid an extra tank buster or hard enrage by moving faster through the fight.

HP matters as far as you can soak a buster hit and possibly one auto attack, but beyond that, any extra is just that. When learning, VIT is nice to give breathing room, but when you want to down a boss before an enrage, you need DPS wherever you can get it, so you swap enough Vit pieces out so you can still survive a hit but contribute as much damage as possible.

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And you dear sir/lady just said what I was about to bother writing, thanks!

Defiance = shield oath = grit. They extend the tanks effective health pool the same. Pld has no reason to gear differently than a warrior. Parry and block are useless vs magic damage and unavoidable special attacks.

Parry as a stat is the least useful to pld because of how the avoidance rolls in the game work. You roll for hit. Success then rolls for block. No block then rolls for parry. So if you have 15% block and 15% parry chance the rolls reduce your effective parry to 12.5%

15000 hp tank
15000 damage tank kill

Pld/drk 15000 - (15000*.8)= 3k hp
War (15000*1.25)-15000=3750 hp

Pld dark needs 12k heals to get back to full
War need 15000
12000*1.2= 14400 (I inner beast will put you over)

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HP matters as far as you can soak a buster hit and possibly one auto attack, but beyond that, any extra is just that. When learning, VIT is nice to give breathing room, but when you want to down a boss before an enrage, you need DPS wherever you can get it, so you swap enough Vit pieces out so you can still survive a hit but contribute as much damage as possible.

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Relevant content (such as coil and possibly alexander savage) is tuned so, as a tank, you are right at the threshold on the last floor while fully equipped with the gear dropping in said tier of content (not taking echo into account, but when echo is out the relevant content isn't relevant anymore).

When I read those things about vitality caps I always think back about the double dreadnought phase on T4 (where both tanks and 1 DPS used to take a lot of damage), the last phase of twintania (super hectic regarding burst, as healers can be stunned or have to run around dropping aoe on the grounds), solotank T8 or T9 and I laugh hard.

Obs if you only tank primordials or dungeons, while overgeared, you can throw in as many str as you want.

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Not only this, tank dps DOES matter. The longer the fight goes on the scarier mechanics can get. Some fights have a hard enrage (ravana) but others ramp up damage till the tank dies, Alexander floor 4 (extra laser burst each time he does the tank buster). In both these fights DPS matters tremendously as you can avoid an extra tank buster or hard enrage by moving faster through the fight.

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Please, the DPS threshold on those fights is incredibly low. Ilvl 180 is already overkill on those encounters.

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Originally Posted by Ditto

The problem with stat mixing like that (Save for the STR ring), is well, you have them so split apart that each one does an incredibly insignificant benefit for you.

Wall of Text

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It works for me. I've had quite a lot of fun running a hybrid build, and if the mood ever strikes me I can just buy a potion and reallocate. However, at the moment, I'm quite happy.

I don't have to Min-Max a build to be good at it.

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Originally Posted by l---------------l

Regarding STR gear. I have to point out that VIT doesn't.... DOESN'T give you more Defense or Magical Defense... Someone with 2000 more vit is same squishy... VIT is only necessary or helps if there's a cap in some mega boss of raid attack... Or if the healer is not too alert to your vit. By far, when I use tanks I prefer to go STR, even if I still using CDs and stuff.

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I'm not sure if your reply was to my comment, but if it was I'd like to address a few things. I never said VIT gave extra defense/magic defense. I was simply pointing out that a DRK in VIT accessories is more equivalent to PLD & WAR in STR accessories. Bad tanks not using CD is a different problem than using VIT or STR accessories. I bolded a part of your response to bring up a very important issue, Magical Christmas Land. A lot of times people will say STR is better than VIT because you only need enough HP to take a tankbuster plus an auto attack, or in your case, the healer just needs to heal you after getting hit. Things happen, no one is perfect at their job, cast times happen, reaction times differ between people. If you and anyone else arguing DRK taking STR over VIT really sit back and think of the multitude of things that can go wrong in a fight, you'll see that DRK is better in VIT. I agree, in a perfect world, where your healer precasts heals, where you have the perfect CD for every hit coming, sure go use all STR accessories. I can't count the number of times I i dipped below 1000 HP, and full VIT gear gives me a bit of a buffer to survive more of the non perfect fights. I like what someone said at the start of this thread, have 2 sets of accessories and switch out when you need more HP or more damage. Thats probably the best course of action, bring both and be prepared.

tldr; my playstyle is different than yours, deal with it

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Originally Posted by Zyrusticae

But if no one plays tank at all, queues just become a bloody nightmare and it affects everyone involved.

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With SE's love for anything RNG and Roulettes, They should make it that you will enter the dungeons (not Raids) as either a TANK, HEALER, or DPS.

That would force everyone to play at least one of them (but then that would force players to level up jobs they aren't interested, so SE won't do it), and until you have completed the task, you won't be allowed to get out, re-enter with the hopes of being a DPS instead.

Everyone would then have their own views about what the other jobs are, and would stop complaining.

*I know I'm dreaming, still..

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Originally Posted by Velstriker

What they do have is Darkside, which gives a 15% damage boost. THEREFORE they get the damage boost that other tanks get from wearing STR accessories BUILT INTO their job and so it frees them up to wear VIT accessories to make up the downside of not having a shield for passive mitigation or a 25% HP boost from Defiance. Sure you can use STR, thats fine, its more POW POW, but I think the job really shines as a tank when wearing VIT.

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Except so do the other tanks, War especially. Darkside is literally just a weaker version of Maim, that is toggle. And then of the 3, FoF gives the largest benefit, at the cost of downtime.

The difference in damage output when in your tanking stance between a War and a Drk is only 2%, not including things such as Unchained, Berserk, and IR that the War has which gives them the edge over Drk.

Darkside is not a unique concept that only we have, don't know why people think it is. I guess it just stands out too much seeing as it's a stance and not a refreshable buff through a rotation like Maim is.

So yes, the other tanks DO get that damage boost.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

Nobody anywhere mentioned attribute points that I can see.

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You didnt see, just look at the post above the one of yours I originally quoted.

I think the real problem is that the game forces you to be stuck into the "role" of the class. Everyone is therefore forced to hunt for the same gear, same rotation and same role. One thing ESO does great is let you play each class as you like. Im not at all trying to say ESO is better as I do play both games but I do think that the "holy trinity" in this game is just to limited.

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Originally Posted by Cinicus

I think the real problem is that the game forces you to be stuck into the "role" of the class. Everyone is therefore forced to hunt for the same gear, same rotation and same role. One thing ESO does great is let you play each class as you like. Im not at all trying to say ESO is better as I do play both games but I do think that the "holy trinity" in this game is just to limited.

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Games have tried to change away from the "holy trinity", Guild Wars 2 and to a smaller extent ESO. They both failed. Gameplay is shallow, as is what serves for "end game content".

If you like GW2 or ESO, that's fine. But from a progression/end-game standpoint, both games have poor showings. The holy trinity, even though it's bad-mouthed all the time, is a tried and true method, and works.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

You didnt see, just look at the post above the one of yours I originally quoted.

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Originally Posted by shinros

Just wait until savage everyone is going to switch back to VIT again until they overgear the content and switch back to str that's how this whole str accessory business started in the first place. I honestly hate it because its breeding bad habits in DF. This is how its like in my eyes.

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??????????

Unless you meant the post that started the quote chain:

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Originally Posted by Tam_Hawkins

I'm running with my Paladin in almost full str accesoirs (one ring is vit) and there was not yet any content in which i thought of it as inappropriate (that said I'm talking about after reaching lvl 60 and having full ilvl170/180 armor).

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

Nobody anywhere mentioned attribute points that I can see.

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Well... I'll help you.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Because 30 vit in ilvl 70 is around a 10% increase in HP, which is quite a significant increase, @50 in ilvl 130 as tank, 30 vit is closer to a 5% increase in HP. So at ilvl 70 it's more useful than wearing ilvl 130. Now we are at 15-20k HP, so the percentile increase is even less for those vit points. Even with the extra points to spend from 51-60.

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Originally Posted by Eisen-Zorn

I bonus allocated 15 STR, 10 VIT, 5 PIE because of MP regen. Most all of equipment is VIT focused, but I put a STR ring on to help out with damage. My level 50-60 points have been VIT, but will be STR on the last few points.

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So yes. People have most definitely been talking about bonus points as well, not only accessories.

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

Well... I'll help you.





So yes. People have most definitely been talking about bonus points as well, not only accessories.

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Sorry, I was only looking in the quote chain because that's what she responded to.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

Sorry, I was only looking in the quote chain because that's what she responded to.

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Yeah, I hopped back through it, then scrolled up one or two posts from each, like she'd mentioned (since I wasn't sure which post in the quote chain she was referring to). =) It's not always easy to find things when you need to read back. I don't even want to imagine how difficult it would be if I still had the posts per page at the default settings ^^;

Yeh I made some posts about the state of drks and the little drk fan bois were all like nah drk is fine, when it's actually not. They are squishier yes and I know some healers that hate healing them no matter what gear they are using.

There is always going to be that one kid who will disagree for the sake of disagreeing, drk is a dps class in FF, and will always remain a dps class, I just pretend that this class didn't happen.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

Yeh I made some posts about the state of drks and the little drk fan bois were all like nah drk is fine, when it's actually not. They are squishier yes and I know some healers that hate healing them no matter what gear they are using.

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I haven't had any more problems healing DRK than other classes if I consider that most DRK players were DPS who thought it looked 2edgy4me and jumped on without actually knowing how to tank.

In other words, if you know how to play DRK you aren't any more/less hard to heal than WAR/PLD.

You know, unless you have some math to back up your anecdotal evidence of them having less defense.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

Yeh I made some posts about the state of drks and the little drk fan bois were all like nah drk is fine, when it's actually not. They are squishier yes and I know some healers that hate healing them no matter what gear they are using.

There is always going to be that one kid who will disagree for the sake of disagreeing, drk is a dps class in FF, and will always remain a dps class, I just pretend that this class didn't happen.

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They're pretty good tanks. They definitely aren't as bad as warriors in 2.0. But I feel they're just not quite as good as PLD/WAR right now. They're weaker than the other 2 classes vs. physical attacks. And while they're probably just as good as WAR vs. magical attacks, they're not dominant vs. magical attacks like PLD is vs. physical (and no hallowed ground either).

Their utility is also lacking compared to the other 2 tanks.

There is no point for any tank @ 60 to wear any VIT acc or VIT spec atm even on ex primals.
Maybe it will be case in Alex savage but atm there is no content that requires tanks to be at VIT accs or VIT spec.

If tank is dead there are 3 causes atm:

a) tank is not using cooldowns properly or using them at all
b) dps is too slow and healer run out of mana
c) bad healer

Btw I am usually playing tank or healer and I am also completly fine if DRK is tanking bosses in full str build without grit, its no problem to heal that also.

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Originally Posted by Ditto

Except so do the other tanks, War especially. Darkside is literally just a weaker version of Maim, that is toggle. And then of the 3, FoF gives the largest benefit, at the cost of downtime.

The difference in damage output when in your tanking stance between a War and a Drk is only 2%, not including things such as Unchained, Berserk, and IR that the War has which gives them the edge over Drk.

Darkside is not a unique concept that only we have, don't know why people think it is. I guess it just stands out too much seeing as it's a stance and not a refreshable buff through a rotation like Maim is.

So yes, the other tanks DO get that damage boost.

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Good point, I completely forgot about Maim. I was just looking at stances. Considering I mained WAR through most of 2.0 I should've remembered that. When it comes down to it though, I like the way DRK plays. It, like all the new jobs, could probably use some tinkering to bring it up to snuff with the other jobs in the field though. I hope SE gives DRK similar love that they gave to WAR in 2.1

Turning dark into a tank class was not a terrible decision.

If anything, SE fixed DRK. I felt bad for a lot of DRKs in XI because they offer no utility to the parties. SE wanted to make sure that didn't happen again with XIV.

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Originally Posted by FallenArisen0990

If anything, SE fixed DRK. I felt bad for a lot of DRKs in XI because they offer no utility to the parties. SE wanted to make sure that didn't happen again with XIV.

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XI Drk, Stun, Debuffing mob jupp no utility there.

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Originally Posted by VarinaVashai

XI Drk, Stun, Debuffing mob jupp no utility there.

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Yeeeeeeeeaaaa. RDM was probably one of, if not, the best Job for that. Plus those Drain Spells that absorb stats came out when I nearing the end of my XI life. Plus RDM can Chain spell Stun so..... yeah they had stuff but other Jobs did things better.

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Originally Posted by KingOfAbyss

With SE's love for anything RNG and Roulettes, They should make it that you will enter the dungeons (not Raids) as either a TANK, HEALER, or DPS.

That would force everyone to play at least one of them (but then that would force players to level up jobs they aren't interested, so SE won't do it), and until you have completed the task, you won't be allowed to get out, re-enter with the hopes of being a DPS instead.

Everyone would then have their own views about what the other jobs are, and would stop complaining.

*I know I'm dreaming, still..

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It will be esy to manipulate. just move all weapons except 1 to the retainers.

From a healer POV (ASt/SCh lv 60 atm) and someone who use to play PLD/WAR a lot i really hate healing the mayority of DRK, they feel really squishy and get defensive (even ragequit) if u try to give then any suggestion/tip. Wiped chrysalis with 3 groups yesteday cuz the DRK till we got a traditional tanks groups (they wanted to tank at any cost and no CDs for triple spark- died - ragequit) .

As Sch my Fairy usually heal PLD/WAR while i do DPS 70%+ of the time. But if i am healing a DRK i usually have to focus ONLY on keep him alive.

I tried the job miself and felt really squishy (compare to PLD/WAR lv 30) and the effects hurt my eyes.

So far found some good DRK, but usually when i c one, as healer, i have to wear my carry pants.

DRK's aren't any more squishy than PLD's and WAR's. I'm guessing that the DRK's you've come across aren't completely geared yet as they possibly switched from a different job to DRK without having the funds or tomes to have all of the appropriate gear.

There hasn't been any evidence, so far, that the DRK's have a smaller defense pool than any of the other tanks. So, unless it's been proven that DRK's have a lower defense pool, the "squishy" aspect comes down to gear or simply your perception.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

Why, most of them put all attribute points in Strength, use full set of Strength accessories and never use any defensive cooldowns.

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This is actually a by-product of this community's (somewhat unhealthy) obsession with non-DPS jobs doing DPS. I've been in parties where healers will let me drop to an inch of my life (and sometimes hit the floor) to get that one more offensive spell out, I've seen tanks that never miss hitting that berserk button when it's up, but don't touch Foresight or anything else, all of it. I've honestly never seen a community so obsessed with healers and tanks doing DPS as this one, ever.

That being said, I'm one of those warriors throwing the points in STR, stance-dancing and swapping out gear when the situation warrants it. I agree that it's a fun way to play, but for the overall community it requires a commitment to the role that your average player isn't going to have. It's hard enough to teach people how to function in their own actual role without pressuring them to also do a job they aren't necessarily responsible for. I'm not surprised that those who embrace DRK have done it with the STR > all mentality because that's just what they have been taught by the elite tanks.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

This is actually a by-product of this community's (somewhat unhealthy) obsession with non-DPS jobs doing DPS. I've been in parties where healers will let me drop to an inch of my life (and sometimes hit the floor) to get that one more offensive spell out, I've seen tanks that never miss hitting that berserk button when it's up, but don't touch Foresight or anything else, all of it. I've honestly never seen a community so obsessed with healers and tanks doing DPS as this one, ever.

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This. All of this. I mean, I know that healers don't want to just be standing around healing, but that's their job. When I get dropped because a healer was stuck casting an offensive spell, that's not because I'm too squishy. It's because they weren't doing their job: Healing.

To be fair, if Square Enix didn't make Healing have such major periods of time where we don't need to heal, and didn't make DPS checks so strict without giving a way to tell which DPS is slacking, healers wouldn't feel obliged to be obsessed with DPS.

Though perhaps it's always going to be that way, because if they increase healing requirements too much, suddenly a lot of bad healers are going to cause a lot of more wipes (since when a healers screws up too much, that's usually a wipe.).

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Originally Posted by Eisen-Zorn

This. All of this. I mean, I know that healers don't want to just be standing around healing, but that's their job. When I get dropped because a healer was stuck casting an offensive spell, that's not because I'm too squishy. It's because they weren't doing their job: Healing.

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Uh, depends. Sometimes it's a mix of both elements. The healer can DPS as long as the tank does his job. It's really hard tp DPS when the tank ignore all his cds and he just goes ham on that big pull spamming flash/overpower/unleash. A wise healer will see how the tank does his job before dpsing. I've found plenty of tanks like that, lately. But the DPS obesession won't stop there. Even among the same DPS that still exists. DPS not using their LB when they should because "omg my stacks" or "omg my cds"? And not only that, they go greedy and ignore mechanics, stepping into AoEs or stuff like that.

Such is the life in FFXIV...

All I have to say was, I came in on low lvl roulette yesterday to get my law tomes. I joined an in progress as DPS. The healer made sure to let the rest of the party and myself know that he'd only been playing four days. The other DPS mentiond that the DRK really should put up Grit. He proceded to lecture us that he was not going to do so because it would decrease his damage out put. While I am not a level 60 tank, I am a level 50 one. I understand.. I *really* do, that when you're tanking you want to do more than pop you defensive cooldowns.

However, it's down right nasty to sit there and ignore the polite requests and then further pleas of your other party members and healer to use your freaking defensive capabilities instead of getting hit like a wet napkin with a hammer.


Needless to say, he continued to be rude and refused and since he kept pulling.. no one could kick him. :/ I apologized to the healer and other dps and logged out after calling him out for a third time.

This kind of attitude is on that I've seen a lot since the release of HW.

Not everybody needs to be the "hero." Sometimes doing you role in the party is what makes you shine instead of deciding that you need to be a special snowflake. It's not just about you. It's about the other players as well. We're contributing our time as a team to finish the dungeon, and people like this tank need to get their head out of their arse and deflate their ego. It's disgusting.

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Originally Posted by NamiNamai

All I have to say was, I came in on low lvl roulette yesterday to get my law tomes. I joined an in progress as DPS. The healer made sure to let the rest of the party and myself know that he'd only been playing four days. The other DPS mentiond that the DRK really should put up Grit. He proceded to lecture us that he was not going to do so because it would decrease his damage out put.

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The sooner dps players pretending to be a tank get tired of DRK the better. For that matter, the sooner the player community wakes up to the fact that tanks and healers dps should be considered optional at best, the better we will all be.

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Originally Posted by nyttyn

Though perhaps it's always going to be that way, because if they increase healing requirements too much, suddenly a lot of bad healers are going to cause a lot of more wipes (since when a healers screws up too much, that's usually a wipe.).

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They'd also totally have to rebalance healer MP management in that case since you go out of MP far before the encounter is over if you constantly have to keep healing.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

You're wrong OP.

1) Dark Knight was only "DPS" in FFXI. In FFIV and all other FF games that it appears, it's a "tank" job.
2) Bad tanks are bad tanks. It doesn't matter which tank job they choose.

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A job known to sacrifice HP to deal damage is a tank? >.>

There's a reason a number of people expected the job to enter the game as a DPS before the announcement was made. The only real analogue in FF to a tank for DRK was, surprisingly, Gafgarion from FF Tactics (because Night Sword drains allowed him to outlast pretty much everyone).

To FFXIV's credit, this is basically a brand new rendition of DRK (none of the other versions focused on the "harnessing the dark power" thing). It is understandably jarring, in a way. Sort of like if SE announced that the new tank job in 4.0 is Calculator. You'd definitely have people going "WTF?!" over that.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

The sooner dps players pretending to be a tank get tired of DRK the better. For that matter, the sooner the player community wakes up to the fact that tanks and healers dps should be considered optional at best, the better we will all be.

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Thing is, tank DPS isn't really something that could be considered optional any more. Many of the changes made with Heavensward, and the design of DRK itself (horribly flawed as it may be at the moment), all point towards that decision. You've got to pull your weight now.
That said, when tanking, there are a lot of things that are far more important than DPS. As a tank, you should only ever worry about DPS once you've got enmity control, survival, and utility down. 500 DPS and a functioning party is a hell of a lot better than 900 DPS with a ring of friendly corpses around you.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

A job known to sacrifice HP to deal damage is a tank? >.>

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Yes. Especially since they usually DRAIN hp as well.

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There's a reason a number of people expected the job to enter the game as a DPS before the announcement was made. The only real analogue in FF to a tank for DRK was, surprisingly, Gafgarion from FF Tactics (because Night Sword drains allowed him to outlast pretty much everyone).

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Sorry, that's wrong.

FF2, Leon. FF3, Magic Knight (later corrected to DRK). FF4, Cecil.

The "issue" is players from FFXI who either haven't played any other FF game or are simply obsessed with the FFXI version.