Getting refused to EX groups as a DRK

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

I specifically didn't include any skill that any tank can use, such as Convalescence and Awareness. All tanks can use them, so trying to use them in argument is ridiculous.


@Giantbane I didn't include healing, because healing isn't mitigation. And DRK's self-healing is very good anyway.

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Neither did I, but you mentioned a shortness of one power, which a general power counter acts. Tell me--what of my points included general powers...?

Right..none..i brought up awarness up in regards to -ONE- power, you meanwhile skipped Equilibrium and Thrill of Battle, two immensly important cooldowns..why?

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Originally Posted by Faytte

you meanwhile skipped Equilibrium and Thrill of Battle, two immensly important cooldowns..why?

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See my note to Giantbane. They are healing. I didn't include them because we were talking about mitigation, and DRK has plenty of self-healing too, just like WAR.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

If a WAR has equal to or less HP than me in Defiance, he is a worse MT. In that case he has FAR less mitigation and might do marginally more damage, not at all enough to make up for it.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

In that case, the WAR has far less mitigation than a DRK, and is thus a bad MT.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

[2o,ooo HP WAR vs 14,ooo HP DRK] Great. That WAR would make an equally good MT to a DRK. Not better though.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

Alright, let's refocus: move the goal post:
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If the WAR is using STR accessories, the DRK has a clear mitigation advantage over the WAR.

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You won't get passed this STR vs VIT thing.

Excess VIT is a waste - maximize your EHP via other means - like your CDs. It's why people substitute VIT for STR - it's min/maxing the job - avoiding redundancies. ALEX NM today, went DRK 14ooo with Party VIT bonus.. MT'd everything just dandy. F2 - Higher DPS than MNK and BRD - ok I lied - I didn't MT F2 - THX, PLD buddy! (BRD may have died without my knowing, I can't understand why he parsed so low - ACT not registering WM damage after patch maybe?). F3 my DRK beat that aforementioned 20k HP WAR by over 120 DPS (And I was the MT!). Was *he the better tank cuz he had 20ooo HP vs my 14ooo? No! And I'm not foolish enough to think *I am awesome for beating him out like that, or that DRK is OP. No, all that parse tells me is he's lazy or watching Netflix while raiding. Point being he wasn't willing to min/max his job to it's fullest potential.

But by your logic he makes the better tank and is the shining example everyone should strive for.

Since day one of early access these 'cd' = 'cd' have been ugh.. false equivalencies.. lack of context.. Many game first competitors role with STR-hinged WAR MTs (DPS checks are a thing), absolutely no reason to have to prove their worth to you. It's DRK that's in limbo - we'll see what happens come (Savage) when i170/i180 gear won't be enough to carry casually through.

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I didn't include them because we were talking about mitigation, and DRK has plenty of self-healing too, just like WAR.

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And then the bait and dodge. Things like this are why your comparisons aren't holding water.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

See my note to Giantbane. They are healing. I didn't include them because we were talking about mitigation, and DRK has plenty of self-healing too, just like WAR.

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I've already explained numerous times why thrill of battle is an important cooldown, just like shadowskin, inner beast, vengeance, and everything else you did include on the list. I have no idea why you find this so difficult to understand.

I'd say between Vengeance and Shadow wall, Vengeance is certainly better (without a doubt)...but also keep in mind that the 30% that shadow wall gives is doesn't include the 20% multiplier that Grit already does....and in the case of Defiance, War DOES get the hp boost, but a lot of warriors these days don't really stack Vit on their accessories so the HP bonus from Defiance isn't being used to it's full potential which is holding it's usefulness back a bit (sometimes by a lot). But it's however you guys look at it. I myself have started to come around to really enjoying how Drk plays but some tanks just work better in certain situations. For instance, I'd rather run Drk for A1 over my Pld because the overall dps *while in tanking stance* is higher than it is with Pld (and by a respectable amount). I haven't had any issues with keeping up with partner warrior dps (while both of us are tanking) and in most cases I've been ahead in overall dps (again, while both are tanking...otherwise the War would win every time). With A2, however, I'd rather run my Pld because tanking 2 dolls and adds with him is much easier than it is with War and Drk (thanks to the use of great things like HG and more reliable overall mitigation). I've also found a way to burst 10k+ damage in around 5 seconds against the striking dummy with my Drk without the use of any party buffs/debuffs (and this is also without the use of Blood Weapon). Not sure how other warriors are looking, but my friend's warrior takes a little longer to hit that 10k mark so he can build up those stacks to max out his Fell Cleaves. Once he gets going he'll still surpass me in overall DPS once he's got his stacks/buffs built up, but a 5 second 10k burst from a tank isn't too bad at all. It's rather nice having all those OGC moves. I'm currently building up my War now because I'd like to have all 3 tanks for different fights....but as it stands, I'm pretty content with how each tank job plays. Sure, Drk could use some slight tweaking here and there (it IS a new job, after all)...but I don't have issues running it anymore and I don't see it as broken. It seems to me that people just haven't gotten to the point to where they're comfortable with how the job plays yet and are just more comfortable with the tanks we already had. It also seems to me that most are more focused on the theory crafts that have been put out and less on practicing how the Job could/should be used in combat.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

Huge wall of cooldowns

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Sure, DRK's cooldowns don't look bad if you compare them 1:1, but that's not how WAR tanks. WAR has IB for every single tankbuster, on top of one of their other cooldowns (Vengeance, Thrill, Equilibrium, Raw Intuition). They're effectively stronger than all of DRK's cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

I specifically didn't include any skill that any tank can use, such as Convalescence and Awareness. All tanks can use them, so trying to use them in argument is ridiculous.


@Giantbane I didn't include healing, because healing isn't mitigation. And DRK's self-healing is very good anyway.

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You can easily compare Foresight/Convalescence/Awareness because each tank has different cooldowns to use them with. On DRK/PLD, you can't use any of those three to mitigate a tankbuster. You need to use them with one of your big cooldowns. A WAR can use them with IB, giving them 20% mitigation and the extra effect from the weaker skill, and then they'll still have their stronger cooldowns like Vengeance.

Heals like Bloodbath, Path, IB, Souleater, Clemency etc. aren't great for mitigating incoming damage because they're either gated behind the GCD or are pretty weak. Thrill of Battle increases your max HP AND heals you, so by using that you're effectively losing a smaller percentage of your max HP. Equilibrium is off-GCD and pretty strong, so you can use IB to reduce incoming damage and then Equilibrium for a quick burst of healing. For example on Ravana Ex, reduce Blinding Blade by 20% (18k to 14.6k) and then heal for another 3.5k immediately after the hit.

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Originally Posted by Agrieus

I'd say between Vengeance and Shadow wall, Vengeance is certainly better (without a doubt)...but also keep in mind that the 30% that shadow wall gives is doesn't include the 20% multiplier that Grit already does....and in the case of Defiance, War DOES get the hp boost, but a lot of warriors these days don't really stack Vit on their accessories so the HP bonus from Defiance isn't being used to it's full potential which is holding it's usefulness back a bit (sometimes by a lot).

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Grit and Defiance do effectively the same thing. A WAR with Defiance+Vengeance will lose the same amount of their eHP as a DRK with Grit/Shadow Wall. The 20% from Grit is completely ignoreable.

And why would you assume a WAR is using STR accessories all the time? If you're going to compare how effective they are at tanking, you should always assume identical gear.

People trying to say Drk is just fine really don't know anything about the class. Sure Drk isn't terrible or isn't Warrior 2.0 bad, but they far from what War / Pld is right now. War / Pld tools are far better in just about all aspects.

Below are ability lists so you can compare without needing to do a bunch of research, and come to a better understanding of how all three tanks stack up to each other.

I can't even compare the aspects for this as being remotely even, well lets start with Defensive capabilities? Not going to cover cross class skills with this.

Pld = Shield Oath -1GCD- Reduces damage received by 20%, while lowering damage dealt by 20% and increasing enmity. Also increases chance to hit by 5%.
Shelton -30s- Blocks the next physical attack for 10s. Additional Effect: Partial MP restored upon block (restores 707 MP at lv 60), Better Def and less Cd then our Carve and Spit.
Divine Veil -150s- Upon next HP recovery via healing magic cast by a party member, a protective barrier is cast on all party members within 15y for 30s.
Barrier Effect: Prevents damage up to 10% of PLD's max HP for 30s. Drk / War don't have anything like that.
Clemency -1GCD (MP 2121)- Restores target's HP. Cure Potency: 1200 - Additional Effect: Restores to self 50% of HP restored to target if target is a party member.
Rampart -90s- Reduces damage taken by 20% for 20s.
Convalescence -120s- Increases HP restored by spells or actions by 30%.
Awareness -120s- Nullifies the chance of suffering critical damage for 25s
Sentinel -180s- Reduces damage taken by 40% for 10s.
Bulwark -180s- Increases block rate by 60% for 15s. (Which block is so much better then parry)

War = Defiance -10s- Increases maximum HP by 25%, while lowering damage dealt by 25% and increasing enmity. Increases HP recovery via curing magic by 20% for self. Also increases chance to hit by 5%.
2% Parry per stack (5 total)
Raw Intuition -90s- Parries all attacks taken from the front for 20s. All attacks taken from the flank or rear will result in critical damage.
Equilibrium -60s- Restores own HP when used with Defiance. Cure Potency: 1200. Restores 200 TP when used with Deliverance. (All tanks should have a form of this)
Bloodbath -90s- Converts 25% of the damage dealt by next successful offensive ability into HP - Buff duration: 30 sec.
Foresight -90s- Increases defense by 20% for 20 sec. (nothing special)
Vengeance -120s- Reduces damage taken by 30% and delivers an attack with a potency of 50 every time you suffer physical damage for 15s
Thrill of Battle -120s- Increases maximum HP by 20% and restores the amount increased for 20s.
Inner Beast -1GCD- Delivers an attack with a potency of 300. Ignores the 25% damage penalty inflicted by Defiance. Additional Effect: Absorb 100% of damage dealt as HP Additional Effect: Reduces
damage taken by 20%

Drk = Grit -1GCD (MP Cost 1300+)- Reduces damage received by 20%, while lowering damage dealt by 20% and increasing enmity. Also increases chance to hit by 5%.
Shadowskin -90s- Reduces damage taken by 20%. Duration: 20s
Dark Dance -60s (MP Cost 1768)- Increases parry rate by 30%. Can only be executed while succumbing to the Darkside. Duration: 20s - Dark Arts Effect: Evasion increased by 20%
Dark Mind -60s (Mp Cost 1768)- educes magic vulnerability by 15%. Can only be used when succumbing to the Darkside. Duration: 10s. Dark Arts Effect: Increase magic vulnerability reduction to 30%.
Shadow Wall -180s- Reduces damage taken by 30%. Duration: 10s

Now this is only what each class has base without cross class CDs. Soooooooo

Pld = 8 CDs / Cross = 10 Cds
War = 7 Cds / Cross = 10 Cds
Drk = 4 Cds / Cross = 7 Cds

Pld / War even out quite well but Drk is 3 Cds short. Having a Pld tank stance without a shield for added Mitigation, kinda hinders Drk. Case and point is that Drk just isn't as good nor ever will be as good as Pld / War until those issues are fixed. (Stance and Cds)

This is only the Defensive side of the issue.

Now for dps potential: This is mainly for single target!

Pld = Sword Oath -1GCD- Increases the potency of auto-attacks by 50. (quite powerful)
Goring Blade combo -3GCD- 920 potency / Mp regen (Takes 24sec to achieve this potency)
Royal Authority combo -3GCD- 690 potency / enmity combo
Rage of Halone combo -3GCD- 610 potency / enmity / Utility combo (-10% str on target)
Circle of Scorn -25s- Delivers an attack with a potency of 100 to all nearby enemies. Additional Effect: Damage over time for 15s, Potency: 30 (combined total potency of 250 per target).
Fight or Flight -90s- Increases physical damage dealt by 30% for 30s. (33% up time)
Mercy Stroke -90s oGCD- Delivers an attack with a potency of 200. Can only be executed when target's HP is below 20%.

War = Deliverance -10s- Increases damage dealt by 5%. 2% Crit Rate per stack (5 stacks)
Storm's Eye combo -3GCD- 610 potency / 20% dmg up / 10% slash resistance down / 50% reduced healing (so gets more powerful then what the potency would say)
Storm's Path combo -3GCD- 590 potency (again 20% more dmg / 10% slash resist down so more powerful then potency tells) 50% dmg done heal / -10% dmg from target
Butcher's Block combo -3GCD- 630 potency / enmity combo
Fracture -90s-Delivers an attack with a potency of 100. Additional Effect: Damage over time with potency of 20 for 30s- potency 300
Fell Cleave -9GCD (or with Infuriate every 60s)- Delivers an attack with a potency of 500.
Brutal Swing -20s oGCD- potency 50 / Stuns for 3sec
Berserk -90s- Increases attack power by 50% for 20s. Unable to use weapon skills for 5 seconds after effect fades.
Mercy Stroke -40s oGCD- Delivers an attack with a potency of 200. Can only be executed when target's HP is below 20%
Internal Release -60s- Increases critical hit rate by 20% for 15s.

Drk = Darkside -5s (MP 443)- MP is slowly drained while increasing damage dealt by 15%. MP refreshing statuses have no effect.
Souleater combo -3GCD (MP cost if DA used 1768)- 660 potency normal / 800 potency with DA / MP regen
Delirium combo -3GCD- 680 potency / MP regen / -10% Int on target
Power Slash -3GCD (MP cost if DA used 1768)- 670 potency / enmity combo / boosted enmity with DA
Scourge -1GCD- Delivers an attack with a potency of 100. Additional Effect: Damage over time with a Potency of 40 for 18s (30s with trait) (combined total potency of 500 with trait)
Low Blow -25s oGCD- Delivers an attack with a potency of 100. Additional Effect: Stun Duration: 5s Additional Effect: 30% chance that next parry will reset the recast timer
Salted Earth -45s oGCD- Creates a patch of salted earth, dealing unaspected damage with a potency of 75 to any enemies who enter. Duration: 21s (combined total potency of 525 per target)
Plunge -30s oGCD- Delivers a jumping attack with a potency of 200.
Carve and Spit -60s oGCD- Delivers an attack with a potency of 100. Also restores MP if used while not under the effect of Dark Arts. Dark Arts Potency: 450
Blood Weapon -40s- Increases attack speed by 10% and converts physical damage dealt into MP. Duration: 15s
Mercy Stroke -90s oGCD- Delivers an attack with a potency of 200. Can only be executed when target's HP is below 20%.

Now it may seem like Pld doesn't bring much to the table on the lack of abilites, but there pure potency and stance / buffs are powerful. Making them very consistant, on the other hand War / Drk seem quite similar. Not close really if you get down to it.

War has a very fuild rotation and great buff uptime to further increase there deadly tool kit. Out of the 3 tanks they have highest burst hands down. Probably best OT in game considered by most, even though I think Pld can make them work for that title.

Drk has on paper quite a great dps tool kit (until you release MP is a pain in the ass to manage along with TP), but in practice it is clunky and not effective really. Button bloat is more trouble causing then helpful. DA is clunky and punishes you more then helps. While Drk on paper shows them to be quite powerful and consistent for dps, in reality this isn't the case at all.

I really hope this shows the overall short comings of the Drk class, and people can now better address the issue with knowledge at hand.

Sorry if I missed anything in my post above, at work atm with a major migraine. So forgive me for any mistakes.

Defiance and grit are the same thing. Not sure why you think grit multiplies into other cool downs better than Defiance. This is false, blows hitting you do the same percent damage of your total life pool, therfore cds behave the same. When a war and drk in tank stance pop - 30% damage buffs, it effects them the very same.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

In this case, DRK and WAR are more or less equal. WAR has some slight benefits in areas, and a lack in others compared to DRK. However, if the WAR chooses to Stance Dance, the advantage goes to the DRK, due to losing the 25% max HP mitigation every time (which has to be healed back).

If the WAR is using STR accessories, the DRK has a clear mitigation advantage over the WAR.

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The thing is they don't actually lack in any areas - by your own list they are better or equal on every cooldown but Dark Mind, and as others have said you could very easily compare IB to it as well. IB is just plain better than anything DRK has, due to both it's very powerful effect as well as it's short (effective) cooldown. You can have it up for every tank buster. That's essentially like DRK having Shadowskin up for every big hit, something that is obviously quite impossible.

If he stance dances, or wears str accessories, or if he decides to tank naked - these are all scenarios where DRK might be sturdier. They are also completely irrelevant as you always compare classes on the basis of equal gear and skill. A DRK could also be wearing STR accessories, or stance dancing, or tanking naked. That's not some unique thing that only WAR does. I have no idea why you keep bringing these scenarios up as if it speaks to the overall balance of the jobs.

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Originally Posted by Launched

And why would you assume a WAR is using STR accessories all the time? If you're going to compare how effective they are at tanking, you should always assume identical gear.

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Because that's how most WARs have been running content.

That being said, I did say that a WAR in the same gear is about equal at MTing to DRK, not any significantly better or worse. As long as WARs maintain their 20-25% max HP over a DRK, then they are roughly the same mitigation-wise. However, as soon as WARs start stance dancing or lowering their HP to the same level as a DRK, the mitigation advantage goes to DRK in MTing.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

That being said, I did say that a WAR in the same gear is about equal at MTing to DRK, not any significantly better or worse. As long as WARs maintain their 20-25% max HP over a DRK, then they are roughly the same mitigation-wise.

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Sure, if neither tank ever uses any cooldowns, then they are roughly the same.

Are people forgetting about Warriors 10% parry in this stance. 20% dmg reduction up every 20sec for 6sec? Sorry but Grit doesn't really compare to War Defiance

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Because that's how most WARs have been running content.

That being said, I did say that a WAR in the same gear is about equal at MTing to DRK, not any significantly better or worse. As long as WARs maintain their 20-25% max HP over a DRK, then they are roughly the same mitigation-wise. However, as soon as WARs start stance dancing or lowering their HP to the same level as a DRK, the mitigation advantage goes to DRK in MTing.

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And by time a WAR has lost 25% of its max health, so will a DRK, so the same rules apply throughout, except for the fact that WAR is always going to have far better and far more consistent mitigation. You're not making a whole lot of sense. Of course a WAR who is at 75% health is going to be in a worse position than a DRK at 100%.

Keep complaining about DRK I want to be OP.

As a dark knight main, nothing shits me more than having to spend my mp to make my dark mind worth using. I know you'll say "what else will you spend your mana on". Well, when main tanking I'll spend it on:
Bonus enmity on Power so I can siphon more often.
Bonus health drain from soul eater.
Upkeep of Darkside so my dps ain't shocking.

Want to compare dps? Look at dark knight's MT dps.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Because that's how most WARs have been running content.

That being said, I did say that a WAR in the same gear is about equal at MTing to DRK, not any significantly better or worse. As long as WARs maintain their 20-25% max HP over a DRK, then they are roughly the same mitigation-wise. However, as soon as WARs start stance dancing or lowering their HP to the same level as a DRK, the mitigation advantage goes to DRK in MTing.

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You know why WARs do stuff in STR accessories? Because they're offtanking. You don't need anywhere near as much HP from that. A PLD/DRK OT should also drop some VIT gear if that's what they're doing for the entire fight. Otherwise, if you're comparing all three in maintanking, it's only fair to compare them in equal gear.

WARs aren't the only tank that can stance dance. a PLD that goes into Sword Oath loses mitigation. A DRK that drop Grit to do more damage loses mitigation. That's definitely not something unique to WAR and I have no idea why you'd bring it up.

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Originally Posted by Kalma51

Are people forgetting about Warriors 10% parry in this stance. 20% dmg reduction up every 20sec for 6sec? Sorry but Grit doesn't really compare to War Defiance

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Because as soon as 5 stacks of wrath are up they're almost immediately used on something so the parry boost doesn't really account for much. And it's for physical attacks so it's not damage reduction because last I checked, parry doesn't do anything for magic attacks (which is also why a DA Dark Dance is meant for magic attacks - because you won't be parrying these anyways. The cost is just a little on the high side). So since it doesn't do anything in terms of magic damage, it's just like foresight.

Tanking with both WAR/DRK now, WAR is squishier than DRK, and if WAR stance dances to use Fel Cleave they are even squishier since a big part of a WAR's mitigation is Inner Beast. Also there is SOOOOO much magic in Alex Dark Mind is fantastic! DPS wise, if a WAR spends all their time in Deliverance they are about equal with DRK, without Grit (assuming they both have slashing debuff). MTing DPS, DRK is higher than WAR assuming the WAR spends all their time in Defiance and uses all stacks on Unchained/Inner Beast.

Warrior is a lot easier to play, and their burst is amazing with Fel Cleave. I went warrior in Floor 4 because the burst was great since you spent such little time on the boss, because of quarantine.

Of course DRK will drain TP in any sustained fight while WAR has pretty solid sustain, assuming you use Equilibrium for TP. I did like using it for healing in Floor 4 though because of the orb damage.

Okay, nobody ever mentions Bloodbath and Foresight, which I use regularly on cooldown. Are they really that awful that nobody mentions them even once?

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Originally Posted by Krissey

Okay, nobody ever mentions Bloodbath and Foresight, which I use regularly on cooldown. Are they really that awful that nobody mentions them even once?

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Foresight is ok, but it's not a tank buster CD. Bloodbath usually leads to overhealing, or just healing too little - it's semi-useful under offensive buffs to alleviate fluff damage a bit but that's about as far as it goes.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Foresight is ok, but it's not a tank buster CD. Bloodbath usually leads to overhealing, or just healing too little - it's semi-useful under offensive buffs to alleviate fluff damage a bit but that's about as far as it goes.

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I thought this whole argument was "overall mitigation", and Foresight reduces damage right? So that's mitigation. I just feel like, if we're going to argue for 7 pages over precisely every little detail of mitigation, any amount of damage reduced or damage recovered, even 1, might be important to be completely fair?

Maybe I am missing the point :(

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Originally Posted by Krissey

Okay, nobody ever mentions Bloodbath and Foresight, which I use regularly on cooldown. Are they really that awful that nobody mentions them even once?

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Sshhhhh.
When someone talks about "damage mitigation" and "eHP" to emphasize the work that the healer has to do, while breathlessly comparing the classes and ignoring Bloodbath, I giggle a little inside. ;)
/ and I'm a plaid, not even a wore

Really, a spirited discussion like this is the result of some really good balancing work on SE's part.

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Originally Posted by Krissey

I thought this whole argument was "overall mitigation", and Foresight reduces damage right? So that's mitigation. I just feel like, if we're going to argue for 7 pages over precisely every little detail of mitigation, any amount of damage reduced or damage recovered, even 1, might be important to be completely fair?

Maybe I am missing the point :(

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Well, everyone can kinda use Foresight, the only thing the trait does is shorten the recast time (120s -> 90s). Foresight is also physical defense only, so would be useless against magic attacks. But yeah, over the course of a physical-based fight, a WAR would probably end up mitigating a bit more damage with some extra Foresights.

No one is denying Foresight's use, and Bloodbath should be used on cooldown just because why not.

Thing is, every tank has these. Just as they can all have Convalescence, but Conv just beats both Bloodbath and Foresight in terms of usefulness.

Foresight is like an extra small layer of protection you throw over your actual cd's. It alone isn't going to save you from anything.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Well, everyone can kinda use Foresight, the only thing the trait does is shorten the recast time (120s -> 90s). Foresight is also physical defense only, so would be useless against magic attacks. But yeah, over the course of a physical-based fight, a WAR would probably end up mitigating a bit more damage with some extra Foresights.

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And ya pretty much that^

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Well, everyone can kinda use Foresight, the only thing the trait does is shorten the recast time (120s -> 90s). Foresight is also physical defense only, so would be useless against magic attacks. But yeah, over the course of a physical-based fight, a WAR would probably end up mitigating a bit more damage with some extra Foresights.

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I just feel bad for Foresight. Nobody ever talks about him but he's my buddy and I use him on cooldown, every time, whether tanking trash or tanking bosses. I like to combine him with Bloodbath, then do a few overpowered strikes to get that healing going.

However that's just a habit I've fallen in to, also I only do that combo on trash packs. Otherwise I do the Bloodbath+Foresight thing on main boss with Unchained and break out all the cooldowns.

Edit: Does Convalescence effect help or combine well with Bloodbath?

I usually do Bloodbath+Foresight together, and use Thrill of Battle+Convalescence+Second Wind together, and use Vengeance on its own. Inner Beast every 5 stacks, and use Infuriate+Inner Beast on cooldown.

Am I doing it wrong?

Convalescence doesn't effect Bloodbath's healing (Conv only affects healing magic), you usually want to save Convalescence to pair with Thrill.

Thrill + Conv, Vengeance, and Raw Intuition are your big CDs that you want to save for tank busters (Raw Intuition is useless against magical tank busters, though). Bloodbath and Foresight are used on CD, Bloodbath often best paired with offensive CDs (Unchained, Berserk, IR) while Foresight is just useful for mitigating fluff damage as often as it's available for. Second Wind and Equilibrium are best when under the effect of Berserk, but basically just used in a pinch (no heals incoming, at critical health, tank buster incoming, etc) or after a tank buster. Always use IB @ 5 stacks unless Infuriate isn't available and a tank buster is coming up in a few GCDs.

If Unchained is up and no tank buster is coming in the next ~20s, it's better to use that over IB.

That's the basics of WAR mitigation/management-wise. Stuff changes from fight to fight and WAR has a lot of leg room for mitigation, so as long as you're not dying and your healers aren't complaining then you're doing it right.

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Originally Posted by Kiteless

DRK's only damage increasing cooldown, Blood Weapon, increases our attack speed by 10% for 15 seconds every 40.

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Hmmm, Darkside, maybe ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Hmmm, Darkside, maybe ?

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Yup. Dark Arts as well. And Drk has also has quite a few OGC attacks to use even while in it's tanking stance. It's got a lot to do with why Drk dps is higher than War dps while the two are in their respective tanking stances. Kiteless...you also forgot to mention that all attacks that hit the War from the side or rear will be crits while Raw Intuition is up, which is kind of a big deal....especially when tanking two large enemies or many small to mid sized enemies because some of them WILL be flanking you so you've got to be careful when using raw intuition. You CAN combo it with awareness to help with the crit thing but having to pop another CD to counter the negatives of another could be considered a disadvantage. This is also assuming that the two can be used at the same time, which I'm sure they can be.

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Originally Posted by Ipkonfig

Tanking with both WAR/DRK now, WAR is squishier than DRK, and if WAR stance dances to use Fel Cleave they are even squishier since a big part of a WAR's mitigation is Inner Beast. Also there is SOOOOO much magic in Alex Dark Mind is fantastic! DPS wise, if a WAR spends all their time in Deliverance they are about equal with DRK, without Grit (assuming they both have slashing debuff). MTing DPS, DRK is higher than WAR assuming the WAR spends all their time in Defiance and uses all stacks on Unchained/Inner Beast.


Warrior is a lot easier to play, and their burst is amazing with Fel Cleave. I went warrior in Floor 4 because the burst was great since you spent such little time on the boss, because of quarantine.

Of course DRK will drain TP in any sustained fight while WAR has pretty solid sustain, assuming you use Equilibrium for TP. I did like using it for healing in Floor 4 though because of the orb damage.

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Yup. The textbook numbers never quite represent the reality.

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Originally Posted by Krissey

Okay, nobody ever mentions Bloodbath and Foresight, which I use regularly on cooldown. Are they really that awful that nobody mentions them even once?

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No point mentioning them since every Tank can use them. If only 1 or 2 of the 3 tanks could use them, then it would be a point of discussion.

Guessing it's because drks awful tp managment combined with the darkside mp bug with regens that still isn't fixed, these things are holding drk back considerably compared to a warrior, I don't have exp with pld but I think they are doing ok dmg not sure.

The problem is forsure the darkside mp bug, with all the buffs and regens flying around you will constantly be using the low dmg syphon combo to just stay afloat, where as a warrior can just keep slamming away with no mp to worry about and good tp also.

To the people who said " those guys were just being jerks" all 5 different groups? yeh sure... it's called a stigma, and isn't going away until darkside bug is dealt with.

@Adventica6

First, it's been said to death, the Darkside MP bug is not an actual bug it's just a graphical glitch, you gain the MP back in the next ticks, but yes if you don't manage your MP and let yourself get low enough where the glitch drains you to zero before the next tick, Darkside falls off, but that's just bad DRKing. Also Syphon Strike is DRK's highest potency combo, Syphon Strike -> Delirium Blade is the second highest average potency combo for tanks.

Playing both DRK/WAR in all current content at i181 I can say that they both have there ups and downs, and I can see reasons to bring either to a fight, and so far you don't need a PLD MT for anything.

It also isn't that the were being "jerks" they are just ignorant and assume because a bunch of players, who don't even have the class at cap say it's bad, that it is, in fact, bad. The reality is that it's a solid tank, great for Alex because of the preponderance of magical attacks, and it also does great damage. Tied with WAR in OT DPS (zero fights atm have enough up time to drain your TP) and the best MT DPS.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Hmmm, Darkside, maybe ?

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Darkside isn't really a cooldown. You should always have it turned on unless you're bad. It's closer to a weaker, MP draining Shield Oath in that comparison, even if you can keep it on during Grit (at the cost of losing Blood Weapon, which evens things out with Keen Flurry).

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Originally Posted by Agrieus

Yup. Dark Arts as well. And Drk has also has quite a few OGC attacks to use even while in it's tanking stance. It's got a lot to do with why Drk dps is higher than War dps while the two are in their respective tanking stances.

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DRK does have quite a few oGCD attacks, but that does not mean that they'll do more damage than WAR. Considering their major offensive buffs, DRK will generally be dealing 92% damage (Darkside at all times), WAR 90% (Maim at all times), and PLD 88% (Keen flurry a third of the time) while in their tanking stances. Then you factor in things like Unchained, Eye of the Storm and Berserk, and WAR's damage starts to soar. Furthermore, WAR has the ability to stance dance freely. Even if DRK can manage to outDPS WAR in Defiance, that doesn't really matter, since good WARs should be freely switching throughout the fight, outputting massive damage with Deliverance, and then switching to Defiance to use Inner Beast and eat any big hits.

Because of the massive MP cost and GCD attached to Grit, DRK doesn't really have this luxury. WAR has changed quite a bit with 3.0, and you're not giving it the credit it deserves.

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Kiteless...you also forgot to mention that all attacks that hit the War from the side or rear will be crits while Raw Intuition is up, which is kind of a big deal....especially when tanking two large enemies or many small to mid sized enemies because some of them WILL be flanking you so you've got to be careful when using raw intuition. You CAN combo it with awareness to help with the crit thing but having to pop another CD to counter the negatives of another could be considered a disadvantage. This is also assuming that the two can be used at the same time, which I'm sure they can be.

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Okay, bad WARs will be hurt by Raw intuition. But we don't care about bad WARs. And yes, Raw Intuition can be used with Awareness, and that's not a disadvantage.

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Originally Posted by Ipkonfig

@Adventica6

First, it's been said to death, the Darkside MP bug is not an actual bug it's just a graphical glitch, you gain the MP back in the next ticks, but yes if you don't manage your MP and let yourself get low enough where the glitch drains you to zero before the next tick, Darkside falls off, but that's just bad DRKing.

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Um... no. Any MP you don't spend is wasted output or mitigation. Managing your MP is all about letting it get as low as possible without actually reaching zero. If you're not letting your MP get low enough to the point where you're being affected by the MP bug, then you're not playing DRK efficiently enough. But if you have MP randomly dropping for no reason, there's nothing you can do about that except lower your own efficiency.

Seems like the dps are relying on the tanks to meet the check which is a no go IMO. Ive beaten the dps check with any tank combination and sometimes with the tanks parsing below what they should be. With good dps and the tanks understanding their necessity and survivability it's fairly simple. Also I see a lot of talk about low Drk dps and honestly the ones who I've met and seem to understand the class have been bringing in high numbers as MT (more so than as OT) but I think an MT DRK is extremely viable if the person knows the job. So long as the tanks are at least bringing an average amount of dps the party should be successful. I think there is a lot of sub par dps at this point relying on tanks and even healers to meet the check and using this as a basis to discriminate against drk (or other classes like brd or mch) to make up for their lack of ability on their own jobs. Drk doesn't deserve all the hate it gets even if their are mountains of people who don't fully understand the job yet.

TL;DR
unless the tank is bringing extremely subpar dps it really shouldn't matter. If the dps are decently geared and know their stuff the tank composition wont matter to any extreme degree to warrant discrimination of one job vs the next. In savage content this might be different but the ex primals should be more than accessible with any tank combo including 2 drks.

@Kiteless - I've never had an issue with DAing any CD, along with mixing in DA/Souleaters, AND running out of MP. You have a constant stream of incoming MP along with out going MP there is no reason to bottom yourself out versus maintaining a solid level and sticking with it. Especially in emergency situations, I had a tank get knocked off into the transition to the third phase of Bis Ex and if I didn't maintain my MP I wouldn't have been able to snap off a few Abyssal Drains to pull the two melee adds over to the caster add.

Unless you're fighting nothing but trash (and phase 3 of Bismark Ex is basically a glorified trash pull anyway), there's no way you're going to be unable to spend your MP faster than Blood Price regenerates it. Especially against bosses with slow attack speeds (I'm looking at you, A1).

The whole point is to not bankrupt yourself. Is there some lost DPS potential there? Yes, but we're talking about 40 average potency on DA/Souleater versus Delirium Combos. Only having Dark Dance and Dark Mind to worry about cool down wise is easily subsidized in the grand scheme. Dark Passengers blind is useless on most bosses, and you have to decide if you want to use C&S to gain MP or lose MP and deal damage.

Syphon Strike refunds half a Dark Arts, same with C&S, and for slow hitting bosses, like Floor 1, the damage on tank is really low I typically drop Grit and Blood Weapon to get back to 100%.

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Originally Posted by Ipkonfig

@Adventica6

First, it's been said to death, the Darkside MP bug is not an actual bug it's just a graphical glitch,

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No its not, a graphical glitch implies it does not actually affect gameplay which it does. You may think its a minior thing but even if you do saying its a graphical glitch is incorrect

Though again its not as harmless as you think it is. You can try to pass it off as "If you cant deal with it you are just bad" but that doesnt make it so.

The only time it effects game play is if you let yourself get extremely low and the glitch causes you to drop to zero making Dark Side fall off. Why on earth would you let your MP get so low? At that level of MP you lose almost all utility, you can't grab ranged threat, you can't generate AoE threat, and you can't Dark Arts till you get yourself back to at least 33% MP.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be fixed, but I'm stating it's a completely ridiculous reason to exclude a DRK from content. I've done everything as DRK and WAR and I feel more like a tank on DRK, but it's hard to not play WAR for those sweet Fel Cleaves.

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Originally Posted by Ipkonfig

Tanking with both WAR/DRK now, WAR is squishier than DRK

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Your WAR is bad then.