Please disable changing Cleric Stance during combat for make healer focus on healing.

If your dps are losing to the dps check... maybe you should check with the dps.

But nah, that would make sense. Because what it sounds like you're saying, is that the healer dps could help -make up- for the failed dps to give it that -last push-.

Hmm... Thanks for making my case, I'm glad you understand. Helpful =/= Mandatory. If it was mandatory, you would fail every single time with any dps makeup regardless of skill level if a healer wasn't dpsing.

I'll keep stance dancing (or not). And I'll keep letting the other healers do the same. Cleric stance is fine.

In coil the penalty of cleric stance didnt mean much as a WHM, because not only did your spells mostly miss. You could only use cleric stance in certain times where the boss is outputting low damage. Its also your duty to precast heals etc.
So even if cleric stance was easier to use. It wouldnt be used much more on WHM.
SCH would enjoy it alot more though, because WHM is main healer and SCH don't precast spells in the same way WHM has too.

Maybe in dungeons and primals you would use cleric stance way more , because as WHM you would have plenty of time to contribute DPS since your regens and stoneskins are often enough(but not enough to last the cleric stance penalty) and your dps will always hit. For dungeons holy also stuns.
SCH in these situations are free to dps as much as they want anyway. I don't think you will even care about your penalty if your second healer is alive and not braindead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hiragawa

Helpful =/= Mandatory. If it was mandatory, you would fail every single time with any dps makeup regardless of skill level if a healer wasn't dpsing.

I'll keep stance dancing (or not). And I'll keep letting the other healers do the same. Cleric stance is fine.

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The issue has never been about the use of CS being mandatory; it's more that knowing how to use it effectively and doing so is a practice of skilled healers and ought to be encouraged.

I expect of healers the same that I expect of other roles: do everything you can to aid timely, efficient, successful completion of objectives. That I expect this does not make it mandatory for others, of course, but I would hope that most players would want to play as well as they could.

Did any of you guys read?

No, its not mandatory. No, its not included in the design.

Yes, it helps if you're at or below minimum expected gear, but if you are at minimum, you should be able to complete it(yes, even Savage) with your healers *only* healing and NO DPS.

I think you folks aren't completely reading that interview.

And honestly, healer DPS should *never* become mandatory, ever.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

The issue has never been about the use of CS being mandatory; it's more that knowing how to use it effectively and doing so is a practice of skilled healers and ought to be encouraged.

I expect of healers the same that I expect of other roles: do everything you can to aid timely, efficient, successful completion of objectives. That I expect this does not make it mandatory for others, of course, but I would hope that most players would want to play as well as they could.

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Now now, I'm on your side of this argument. The reply you quoted was one of many towards Sharaz and others in the thread. I'm always far more pleased with a skilled healer adding in dps, but I'm not going to admonish them if they don't use it.*

*provided of course, that they are actually performing their healing role. If you aren't healing (when needed) as a healer, please leave. Thanks kindly.

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Originally Posted by Hiragawa

Now now, I'm on your side of this argument. The reply you quoted was one of many towards Sharaz and others in the thread. I'm always far more pleased with a skilled healer adding in dps, but I'm not going to admonish them if they don't use it.*

*provided of course, that they are actually performing their healing role. If you aren't healing (when needed) as a healer, please leave. Thanks kindly.

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Yeah, I only quoted because I know that people will jump on the use of the word "mandatory" and start straw-manning the "good healers know when to DPS and should do it" argument into a "healers must DPS to make up for raid deficiencies" one.

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Originally Posted by DarkmoonVael

Healer DPS is not the norm, it is there to be done by those with the skill to do so. Just because some can, some cant and some wont, it doesnt mean the ability has to be removed to placate those who cant/wont. Healer DPS is "the norm" for those who have the skill to do so. OP, like many other people, is blaming the lack of certain peoples skill on an ability. If you dont raid, then healer dps should not be that much of an issue. If you do raid seriously as a healer and refuse to dps to push phases, then the issue is the lack of skill on said raid healer.

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I do plan to raid seriously. And that last sentence is precisely my issue. I repeat, I suck at DPS. I don't play this game to DPS. That said, I can DPS during lulls, and am teaching myself to do so. But I can't do it with Cleric Stance. I'm very aware of my limits and realize that trying to stance dance is just asking for it.

My skill as a healer should not be judged by my ability or inability to DPS. It should be judged by how good I am at keeping everyone alive. That's the whole point of the role, after all (I plan on playing a WHM, BTW).

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

And honestly, healer DPS should *never* become mandatory, ever.

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I really hope you never had the joy of wiping sub 1% on any boss where your healers didn't do a single point of damage, not even on the long as fuck enrage cast (ie Ultima, Gigaflare).
No one expects healers to full time DPS, but not DPSing when your healing isn't required and just generates overheal is about as stupid as letting the tank die because you were busy doing your sick DPS. When you're new to content you probably won't have much time to DPS, but as you do content more often you should be able to see windows were you can DPS.
And no, I've never seen anyone complain that a healer does too little DPS or no DPS at all. It's up to the healer after all, but it's also up to the group if they wouldn't rather take a healer that can do more.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

-snip-

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You really don't get it, do you?
No one queues as a healer expecting only to dps. A good healer will heal AND dps when the opportunity is there.
Whether it's factored into the fights or not is a pointless argument, and is just an excuse to do less work. If you can keep everyone alive and still do 200 dps to help kill the boss, there is literally no argument to not do it except "I'm lazy" or "I'm not good enough".

Also saying Cleric Stance is optional because it's a cross class skill just shows how little you know. ._. Next you'll say invigorate and swiftcast are optional for melee and casters respectively.

It also greatly helps. When final coil first came out, there were very few (IF ANY) groups that were able to push 4 bennus without both healers contributing as much dps as possible in t12. Stuff like that makes a huge difference.

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Originally Posted by Alisa180

I do plan to raid seriously. And that last sentence is precisely my issue. I repeat, I suck at DPS. I don't play this game to DPS. That said, I can DPS during lulls, and am teaching myself to do so. But I can't do it with Cleric Stance. I'm very aware of my limits and realize that trying to stance dance is just asking for it.

My skill as a healer should not be judged by my ability or inability to DPS. It should be judged by how good I am at keeping everyone alive. That's the whole point of the role, after all (I plan on playing a WHM, BTW).

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Take it slow and first get adjusted to it not being on GCD. As basicly the way you do it is that you turn it on right after a cure or offensive spell goes off, that way on the way back around on your normal GCD, your spells are up and at their full power ready to go again. Takes some getting use to though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alisa180

I do plan to raid seriously. And that last sentence is precisely my issue. I repeat, I suck at DPS. I don't play this game to DPS. That said, I can DPS during lulls, and am teaching myself to do so. But I can't do it with Cleric Stance. I'm very aware of my limits and realize that trying to stance dance is just asking for it.

My skill as a healer should not be judged by my ability or inability to DPS. It should be judged by how good I am at keeping everyone alive. That's the whole point of the role, after all (I play a WHM, BTW).

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Frankly this is less of an issue for WHMs since it's known that WHM DPS is entirely impractical without crafted gear for ACC. Unless you are pushing for server firsts, most parties will expect minimal DPS from their WHMs.

Technically you can still be good at healing without being able to DPS, but you won't excel at the healer role in this game without learning how to use your full kit.

Learning to DPS isn't difficult, particularly with the current version of WHM, which has a whopping 2 DoTs, 1 main single target attack, and a 30 sec oGCD to keep track of. Good healers already know to anticipate damage spikes and specific mechanics, so if you practice weaving those skill sets together, you have the full package and can use any tool when appropriate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alisa180

I do plan to raid seriously. And that last sentence is precisely my issue. I repeat, I suck at DPS. I don't play this game to DPS. That said, I can DPS during lulls, and am teaching myself to do so. But I can't do it with Cleric Stance. I'm very aware of my limits and realize that trying to stance dance is just asking for it.

My skill as a healer should not be judged by my ability or inability to DPS. It should be judged by how good I am at keeping everyone alive. That's the whole point of the role, after all (I plan on playing a WHM, BTW).

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The SCH is one who is DPSing all the time. They do so much more DPS then WHM can. 350dps i think?
Due to a few reasons
Able to ignore acc
Have more opportunities too since they have lustrate , fairy, dmg reduction and shield
DOTS do more damage overall in less GCDs used

If you only cleric stance when you clearly are safe, that's fine. Because as a WHM your spells tend to miss and have lower potency then SCH DOTS. You also don't have that much mana to waste on too many missed spells. 1% wipes on boss is still lot of damage that your WHM dps won't ever make up lol. If you are able to comfortably let your SCH buddy focus on doing as much dps that should be enough or your DD and Tanks are doing too little DPS.

If Whm gets their Acc issues fixed then you will have to DPS alot more because your potential DPS shoots up dramatically, with the new Stone 3 spell and Assize.
AST will probally DPS alot less then since apparently they have lower dps then WHM and can compensate by using buffs to increase your parties DPS output instead.
If you run AST/WHM then you will have to be the DPS since AST should be buffing and WHM apparently has higher DPS then AST.
Though i do think WHM/AST is going to pretty bad in cutting edge compared to SCH and a AST/WHM. Because SCH works better in the DPS role then WHM does.
If you do hate the idea of DPS-ing as a Healer. Roll AST you are the least likely to DPS since you can compensate by buffing instead.
Unless they lied about AST and secretly it is amazing at DPS.

Side note for players wanting to become more comfortable with Cleric Stance:

Practice is how you improve.

Obvious tip is obvious, but I can't stress it enough. When I was a new player, I was nervous about using CS in group play, but I saw other healers do it successfully, so I knew it was possible. Then I read end-game discussions on this forum and started putting that info into practice. Before long, stance-dancing became natural and even automatic at times.

Learning to stance-dance also forces you to anticipate mechanics, which is a great practice in and of itself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Side note for players wanting to become more comfortable with Cleric Stance:

Practice is how you improve.

Obvious tip is obvious, but I can't stress it enough. When I was a new player, I was nervous about using CS in group play, but I saw other healers do it successfully, so I knew it was possible. Then I read end-game discussions on this forum and started putting that info into practice. Before long, stance-dancing became natural and even automatic at times.

Learning to stance-dance also forces you to anticipate mechanics, which is a great practice in and of itself.

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If these players arent touching Coil (or savage in Heavensward) then they don''t need to practice cleric stance outside of personal improvement . Alot of players are casuals that just want to relax instead of having to work twice as hard as the DPS. Alot of DPS actually play DPS because they want to have less responsibility lol.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

If these players arent touching Coil (or savage in Heavensward) then they don''t need to practice cleric stance outside of personal improvement . Alot of players are casuals that just want to relax instead of having to work twice as hard as the DPS. Alot of DPS actually play DPS because they want to have less responsibility lol.

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Coil didn't teach me to play well; rather, being able to play well helped my learning curve in Coil.

Personally I play games for fun, and I have difficulty imagining slacking on gameplay to be fun, especially since it means more time spent retreading familiar content. What especially kills me are DPS who play to "relax" and then complain when their "relaxed" play style proves too godawful to perform well even at basic content.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

You really don't get it, do you?

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I've been playing the game on and off since V1.0 Beta, kid. Nothing has changed in this game regarding people complaining about DPS as a healer.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

No one queues as a healer expecting only to dps.

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Nonsense. If this was the case you wouldn't see WHM's entering CS and never removing it. That's one of several kinds of bad WHM's.

I have never had anyone, in any party to date ever tell me to DPS or not DPS outside a RAID. In fact I've had more commendations when I haven't DPS'd at all. I have had co-healers people say they were not going to heal in 24-man raids. For every one that says they aren't, there's several who just don't heal in any meaningful way.

http://i61.tinypic.com/osa8ee.jpg
The fact is, people queue as healers because the queue is faster, and Hunt/FATE grind is boring.

The situation is much different with light parties, because as the Solo Healer, you're setting the pace. The average party is less crappy overall compared to the 24-man Raid, but just like the raid party, you have players trying to just faceroll over the content so they get carried. When you luck out and get a party that actually isn't all about speed-pulling the dungeon, then you see opportunity to DPS to make the trash pulls go faster.

But as I've said (across many threads in this forum)
1. There is NO REQUIREMENT of the healer to DPS.
and
2. The developers intent has NEVER REQUIRED the healers to DPS.

If you pick the healer role in the DF queue, don't be a jerk to the party and eschew your duty as a healer. Players like Cynfael are just fine Stance Dancing, and that suits their play style. It does not however equate with everyone is required to play like him, and the average player is awful when they do outside their Static party.

Whenever we have these threads on THIS forum, it always devolves into more people saying they don't want to do any DPS, a few people berating those that don't want to DPS as being lazy or incompetent. Then there is someone else who I won't name, who says they purposely make the Healer's job harder when they tank because they believe it so.

If people weren't so quick to be abusive to each other in this game over bloody playstyles then maybe we'd have less arguments of this kind in the first place.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If people weren't so quick to be abusive to each other in this game over bloody playstyles then maybe we'd have less arguments of this kind in the first place.

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This much I will agree with. Sometimes conversation can get heated (or even just appear that way since text is subject to the reader's interpretation regardless of how hard the writer might have tried to express their own), and I know that I am prone to talking myself into an elitist corner because I have such a difficult time relating to some of the concerns other players have in this area. I'm quite a bit more forgiving of my fellow players in actual gameplay than I come across as here.

On the flip side, it can be tough not to come down hard when players openly campaign for what one views as unnecessary and punitive changes to an entire role that would drastically impact your own play experience (referring of course to the OP).

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Originally Posted by amihavingfunyet

I really hope you never had the joy of wiping sub 1% on any boss where your healers didn't do a single point of damage, not even on the long as fuck enrage cast (ie Ultima, Gigaflare).
No one expects healers to full time DPS, but not DPSing when your healing isn't required and just generates overheal is about as stupid as letting the tank die because you were busy doing your sick DPS. When you're new to content you probably won't have much time to DPS, but as you do content more often you should be able to see windows were you can DPS.
And no, I've never seen anyone complain that a healer does too little DPS or no DPS at all. It's up to the healer after all, but it's also up to the group if they wouldn't rather take a healer that can do more.

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1% wipes don't make healer DPS mandatory, and there's plenty of reasons you did or did not make that kill.

I've done realm first raiding. I've been there.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

1% wipes don't make healer DPS mandatory, and there's plenty of reasons you did or did not make that kill.

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There are. And this is one of them.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

There are. And this is one of them.

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Still doesn't make healer damage mandatory. Go get some more gear or stop dying to stupid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Still doesn't make healer damage mandatory. Go get some more gear or stop dying to stupid.

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So how dead is your realm that you do realm first raiding and still don't see the reason for healers DPSing?
Gear is sparse when you start progressing. I never said it's mandatory as it clearly is not according to the interview, but in early progression you don't have much choice in gear and are usually under the expectations of the dev team (What is the ilvl they consider appropriate? The highest you could have before the content was released? Or the requirement they put on DF queueing?). And mistakes do happen in progression.
Maybe your group won't blame you for it, I know I wouldn't. But I'd damn myself for not pushing harder.

Edit: Looking at your lodestone, you are an ~ i100 Bard, with no healer at level 50. And you are trying to tell me I shouldn't DPS when I don't have anything better to do with my time?

Nothing is "mandatory." No one can force players to adopt a specific play style (particularly if it's a beneficial one to learn, ironically enough).

However, if one wants to be a good player, there are things one will take the initiative to do in one's role. Similarly, if the team has a vested interest in players being skilled so that it boosts the group effort, they will probably express that expectation.

Edit: Can't help but notice that the OP has 10 thumbs up now. It's really disheartening that even 10 people support drastically lowering the skill ceiling on this role and gutting the fun and effectiveness of skilled players. I do wish that people would think more carefully or even learn something about the game before posting pieces like this.

They will not disable Cleric Stance due to your whim, quite the opposite. Healers can DPS, face it.

If you are an healer and you don't want to DPS it's okay, it's not mandatory, just a plus. Never ever heard someone even asking me to DPS when I don't and I play healer from release.

If you're not an healer well.. start working your role better before even think to limit other players possibilities.

Just to give some idea of the difference between non-Cleric'd DPS and Cleric'd DPS....

WHM, non-partied, lvl 50 housing striking dummy, ilvl 128, 632 Mind -
I went and slapped a striking dummy with stone II a few times and generally saw these ranges (it's just a range I happened to see so there are chances numbers can go higher and lower)

Non Cleric'd Stone II: 234 - 255, with 374 crit
Cleric's Stone II: 650 - 706, with 1024 crit

Non-Cleric'd Holy: 284-300, with 424 crit
Cleric'd Holy: 763-816, with 1207 crit

Yes, Cleric isn't mandatory to DPS - but it makes a HUGE difference >_>

How dead is my realm? Was most populated in NA.

Was high pop NA.

Oh wait, I forgot, this is the only game with top end raiding. My bad.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Still doesn't make healer damage mandatory. Go get some more gear or stop dying to stupid.

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And you have just managed to completely ignore how healer damage contributes to raids and what yoshi-p actually states in the quote. Healer DPS is there to push if you want to, and yoshi-p acknowledges that healer DPS is still there for progression orientated raid groups. You know what this means? It means they are hovering at the gear threshold for the raid, and need other means to push DPS. How do they do this you ask? Well healer DPS.

With a 1 % wipe and no healer DPS, its kind of obvious to anyone that if the healers decided to contribute DPS it wouldnt have been a wipe but a success.

But again, it comes down to Cleric Stance being a huge skill tester for a healer. For those who lack the skill to do this, then thats fine. Just dont expect an ability to be removed because you can not use it. Its getting silly now and coming accross as hugely self-entitled.

Instead of Healer DPS can you guys say SCH dps instead. The 50 or something dps Whm adds is kind of useless compared to the 300+dps sch adds. Its better for WHM to solo heal, because thats overall more dps for you then having both healers share the dps role.
Im talking about times where healer dps actually matters (progression coil).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

Instead of Healer DPS can you guys say SCH dps instead. The 50 or something dps Whm adds is kind of useless compared to the 300+dps sch adds. Its better for WHM to solo heal, because thats overall more dps for you then having both healers share the dps role.
Im talking about times where healer dps actually matters (progression coil).

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Why does it matter? The suggestion made here is a change with wide sweeping strokes that will affect all healers in all content, greatly reducing the efficacy in which they can DPS. Healer DPS is relevant as soon as the healer decides to turn on cleric stance and start DD'ing, regardless of content. Coil specifically has an established paradigm of SCH DPS'ing because of ACC requirements, and mainly the ability to ignore them, but as a WHM I'd lose the ability to DPS effectively in light parties, FATEs, hunts, CT, primals. While Coil may be the cutting edge for healer DPS, it is by no means the only place it happens.

Not gonna touch the dps argument..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

It happens to sprint/swiftcast as well , occasionally first press wont register. Maybe its because i am EU although my ms is only 100.

So you can see why i think current cleric stance is clunky...

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I am in the US and still see this issue if I press swiftcast too quickly after my last action (or panic and try to drop cleric right after I used a skill). I've taken it as an issue with myself and realized I need to pause for a moment after certain skills, plus verify I've received the intended effect (not out of CS? OK, try again).

I really don't enjoy DPSing in the slightest, I've been a career healer pretty much since Everquest's release in 1999 and I'll plead guilty to avoiding playing SCH in raids pretty much because I'm not and likely never will be particularly good at putting out DPS numbers that the job is capable of.

However, I don't agree with the OPs opinion in the slightest and I'd go as far as saying that it's an absolutely idiotic idea that would maybe pander to a minority of players who are flat out unwilling to adapt to the abilities demands whilst also taking offence to those that suggest they try. DPSing healers are far from the norm and outside of progression FCs it's not really an expected thing. If you don't like it, just don't use it. If someone suggests you try, then simply add that you're not comfortable with the ability and don't want to risk causing any needless wipes.

I just can't get over the fact that there are players so vexed that others try to play well and maximize their job that they want to drag everyone down to their level. And they don't see the irony in this, in getting incredibly mad that people are enjoying a meta towards DPS and their solution is to force others to play the way they like playing instead.

Imagine you're driving on the road and there's a stubborn, bitter cyclist on the road ahead. Instead of giving way they just block traffic and make everyone go their pace. That's what this boils down to, small insecure people who want to make job boring and tedious to a lot of players because even though they get mad when others tell them how to do their job, they want to do the same back.

I thought this was troll topic, and unfortunately not. Healers can dps, tanks can dps, it gives flavour to the game, which lacks creativity.
The more I play with FFXIV players, and the more I see them as old geezers unable to multi task.

The better suggestion to the thread:

Make end-game fights more healing intensive so there are less opportunities to allow for Clerics Stance. This will maintain the risk/reward aspect of Cleric Stance and encourage higher level play as raiders try to find the correct (and smaller windows) to use Clerics Stance.

Op, this suggestion is the worst ever. People who actually raid in a progression setting enjoy dpsing as healer. My Whm counterpart enjoys solo healing.

If they removed the ability to toggle clerics during combat I'd quit the game. It would change my main class enjoyment that much for me.

Can't read every page of this but man people are seriously weird! Why wouldn't you want to be able to do CS? If you actually are SO busy healing right now that you have no time to DPS, then I'm sorry but you're not a good healer. I get it for maybe your first run or two on a new instance, sure you don't want to chance it. Once you've done it a bunch though it becomes very routine and monotonous to just heal. I personally enjoy that you can instantly flip into CS but there's a cool down to remove it, makes it a bit more challenging to me determining if I have time to quickly flip into it, hit Aero II, Virus, etc then back out. If I could just flip into it instantly and out instantly, or not need it at all, I think it would be a bit less interesting personally and if they removed it I'm pretty sure I'd stop playing. I can't even think of how many times it's me that's taking out some of the easier adds while the DPSs are still focused on the boss not even paying attention to them.

I was playing on PS4 the other day doing WoD on the one boss can't remember the name, where the ground changes colour and you have to move to the opposite one, then it does that hour glass spinning thing as well. My friend who is a Monk is too nervous to try WoD so I thought I'd send him the footage that the PS4 is always recording. Of course I'm in a good party, so I was seriously standing there many times with everyone at 100% HP and literally nothing to do. I was like wow, this makes it look like healing is so easy, which he already bugs me about as he thinks we just stand around doing nothing all the time. I was using CS and DPSing just so that I wasn't standing still for 10-15 seconds in between needing to heal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

Instead of Healer DPS can you guys say SCH dps instead. The 50 or something dps Whm adds is kind of useless compared to the 300+dps sch adds. Its better for WHM to solo heal, because thats overall more dps for you then having both healers share the dps role.
Im talking about times where healer dps actually matters (progression coil).

---

While it's true that the majority of groups will have the SCH provide the bulk of supporting DPS, I wouldn't exclude WHMs because they, too, can push out some statistically significant numbers depending on their team comp and strategy.

(IOW WHM DPS is by no means poor; you just don't hear about it much because WHMs absolutely require high ACC melds and have tighter timing for safe and effective CS usage)

Also, without doing any Lodestone spying, I highly doubt that the OP has done much of any raiding and is probably basing that strange opinon exclusively on DF dungeons and CT-type raids.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

I just can't get over the fact that there are players so vexed that others try to play well and maximize their job that they want to drag everyone down to their level. And they don't see the irony in this, in getting incredibly mad that people are enjoying a meta towards DPS and their solution is to force others to play the way they like playing instead.

Imagine you're driving on the road and there's a stubborn, bitter cyclist on the road ahead. Instead of giving way they just block traffic and make everyone go their pace. That's what this boils down to, small insecure people who want to make job boring and tedious to a lot of players because even though they get mad when others tell them how to do their job, they want to do the same back.

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You rock! Thank you for posting this.

Noticed how the OP never came back?

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Noticed how the OP never came back?

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Yeah, but it doesn't matter.

Either the OP just wanted to start something (a possibility that any of us who've posted on the forum for more than a day accepted from page 1) or felt soundly rebutted and had nothing else to contribute.

I'd say 50/50 for either case because dropping a stink bomb isn't unheard of and the OP's position was really, really not very well thought-out.

Just because you want to sit on your ass for 90% of most fights doesn't mean the rest of us have to.