the new trial is too hard

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

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I think this is a common problem. I was grouped with another bard yesterday for my first try and he ignored everything that we told him and didn't touch the canon once despite being asked to man one. We made it to first snares which this guy just ignored totally so we ended up wiping. As soon as we reload after the cut scenes he initiates a vote abandon which is just moronic as how else are we going to learn the strat if we don't keep attempting? This is the problem, many current players have been in some sense carried through content that is now zergable in poetics gear and so they don't want to learn mechanics or wipe they want to annihilate stuff on the first go - I can't wait for Heavensward.

There is 0 statistics or evidence to support that FFXIV will lose more players if it try to raise the current difficulty bar. How do you know that the game won't attract much more players if it somehow gain a reputation for being a challenging game? So far, all we know is that FF14 failed once mainly because:
1. They failed at optimization by wasting too much graphical resources.
2. They were still stuck on MMO design from FFXI era and did not consider the current MMORPG market.
3. Player feedbacks from the previous two points led to catastrophic media backlash.

With ARR, Yoshi already made sure those 3 points will never repeat:
1. We got a fully optimized AND multiplatform MMO.
2. Yoshi is constantly factoring in ideas from other successful modern MMO.
3. The constant PR effort led to a loyal fanbase that is constantly growing.


FF14 2.0 have already eased new players into game and held their hands for almost 2 years with the same formula of primal > coil > CT repeat. Now is the best time for Yoshi's team to break the mold and do something different (Steps of Faith) as we are nearing Heavensward.
New and challenging mechanics are more than welcomed to reinvigorate the gameplay even if it piss off those that only want to faceroll and refuse to learn.
If people are claiming that this type of player will complain and quit if their demand is not made, what make you think they can be a stable subscriber in the future that is worthy of concern?
Sure we all want the FF14 player population to prosper, but how can you say that FF14 can't thrive if we lose these type of players?

Lastly, there is no reason for fearmongering if FFXIV try to experiment a ramp up the difficulty. This is not a monolithic single player game and tweaks/nerfs/buffs can happen on the producer's discretion. Be optimistic.

I did one run yesterday and the boss was at 90% when the battle ended. I don't know what the hell people were doing. lol

Just going to vent my frustrations a bit at this. First thing, it's good that they are trying something new when it comes to trials and all that.

The major issue is, people are not sticking to their jobs. It's a case of them going to the first wall and then going 'lol no' and ignoring everything after. People aren't getting rid of the mobs on cannons, they aren't interrupting the big turtle, they're getting trampled on etc..

This is not a hard trial to do but when people cannot do simple things such as stay on cannons, pull mobs under the boss and all that, it makes for one frustrating experience. 4 people would have been more manageable but putting 8 people in doing a lot of things required to win is a nightmare as people are not listening.

Have not yet tried it, but as looking at other stuff where there is mechanics involved, I think the main problem is that lot of people don't like to actually concentrate on them and just want to rush in the fight and bombard the boss and that's it. (Bone dragon in ct - lately they have been NOT using mechanics, because hey over-geared we can survive anyway).

I mean of course when something new comes out you have to figure it, but hey if there are 4 freaking bertas (that's the name of the canons isn't it) - it means: YOU NEED TO USE THEM. (I already am afraid at failing using them; my timing sux)

People are simply not used to do mechanics anymore (another example: garuda hm farming - ignoring completly the adds and just concentrate on the boss)

Still I'm scared to try this now ._.

The instance doesn't merely promote teamwork and coordination, it REQUIRES it.

That said, any group with sufficient ilv (i90+) should have no trouble with this content in the countdown time alotted.

The only true factor apart from gear level that sets the winners apart from the losers is 'the bads'. People unwilling to perform the roles they must in this instance, while at the same time- effectively playing their chosen classes.

Not to belabor the point, but 'bads' is not even a half-good excuse to nerf the instance. People either learn to listen and become team players... or be forced to have mercs carry them through the content. SE should not be obligated to implement every player's idea, and this is a prime example of something, if nerfed, which would encourage laziness and discourage esprit de corps in the game.

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Originally Posted by Akira_Tenshi

I did one run yesterday and the boss was at 90% when the battle ended. I don't know what the hell people were doing. lol

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Seriously WTF happened there? XD lol

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Originally Posted by Akira_Tenshi

I did one run yesterday and the boss was at 90% when the battle ended. I don't know what the hell people were doing. lol

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what ya guys smoking?
Can I have some of that!

I tried to read this somewhat serious discussion. The avatars are just too funny to take this seriously.

GL to OP though XD

Wtf.. Too hard? I did this in DF and cleared in on second attempt :s. I have no clue what you are even talking about... It's a trial where you can't brainless hit the boss and it's too hard already? Sigh... And this is exactly the reason why this game becomes too easy...

I enjoyed the fight quite a bit, somewhat different to the regular tank and spank with a few mechanics. Though the group I ended up with also beat it on 2nd try and this was before people had finished writing/record guides. I guess it is just a matter of getting a good DF group, the trial itself isn't hard, not even close to it.

my first couple of attempts we finally got it to 1% and you know what? I'm enjoying this trial immensely. I am frustrated cause I want to see more of the story but it is tempered with the fact that this fight is a good challenge. will it be easier come future updates? maybe. but for right now the group I am with might be able to get it done today.

The fight is just fine in difficulty I would say, only thing that would make it hard is people who don't know how to react or read what is going on.
I did spend a full instance timer the first time with a DF group and in the end we all knew what needed to be done but we ran out of time.
So before you go and wish it was easier, try instead looking at what the groups you were doing it with, what they were doing, or not doing, of course it gets harder if most of the groups runs around like headless chickens~

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

jumping from a no brainer tank and spank, to something that require collaboration of full group, is an huge gap, and I think the Main Scenario needs help the player to learn that, with some progression.

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Specifically with regards to interacting with gimmicks in a fight, the main scenario already does that, starting with CM and the Magiteck ride, way back in 2.0. Then in Leviathan there's the shield. Stone Vigil (Hard) makes you interact with cannons. After that the Keeper of the Lake also provide you with an activated shield.

Interacting with gimmicks should not be new to someone who is even able to enter this trial. The problem is too many people are used to face rolling content with their iLv 120~130 gear that they expect new content to be the same. People who have once climbed up to the top of the learning curve have forgotten the skills they learnt, relying on brute forcing everything, that is the real problem.

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Originally Posted by Alpal

and all the pfs are looking for people who beat it

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What incentive is there to do it again once you beat it?

I joined a PF group last night and one shot it, it was my first time.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

What incentive is there to do it again once you beat it?

I joined a PF group last night and one shot it, it was my first time.

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Absolutely none other than having fun. :3

As tank, there's no fun kiting the mobs. We tanks have been controlling mobs since Sastasha. I guess DPS gets more fun out of it pumping the canons...

As other players have already pointed out, the fight overall is not hard at all. I spent the best part of my evening queuing up on df only to have the group vote abandon after a couple of tries.
This happened 7 times. >.<
Luckily for me, I found a good group on df and we got it done on our third attempt.

I solo queued today and we downed it on the second try. I assessed the situation and on the second pull I told people what to do. Taking initiative on the cannons, telling people when to move and where to put the mobs. Smooth as butter. No prior knowledge. You just have to overcome diffusion of responsibility and give some direction.

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Specifically with regards to interacting with gimmicks in a fight, the main scenario already does that, starting with CM and the Magiteck ride, way back in 2.0. Then in Leviathan there's the shield. Stone Vigil (Hard) makes you interact with cannons. After that the Keeper of the Lake also provide you with an activated shield.

Interacting with gimmicks should not be new to someone who is even able to enter this trial.

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With maybe the exception of Vigil HM, guess which people generally don't get to bother with such things anymore because nobody ever slows the hell down and actually lets them learn how to use them?

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

With maybe the exception of Vigil HM, guess which people generally don't get to bother with such things anymore because nobody ever slows the hell down and actually lets them learn how to use them?

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This is the sad truth as people turned dungeons and trials into speed runs and no one understanding the mechanics because who needs mechanics I am over geared! This is the problem in which needs to be fixed other wise these same people are the ones that keep crying content is too hard, because they can speed run and faceroll it. Also expecting to get it first try no mistakes perfection is already bad enough in other parts of the game. Just my opinion on the situation and I hope it gets addressed otherwise everyone suffers in the end.

I wouldn't say the trial is "too hard." However, I do have two suggestions that I think would be useful.

First, since there's no tradition way to wipe (unless the dragon reaches the end), there should be an option to "vote restart." Even after a couple runs it's pretty apparent that if the dragon reaches a certain point, with a certain amount of health, there's really no chance of winning. There's very little point to waste those precious minutes watching the dragon go through with the inevitable. I think that time could be much better spent coordinating the group.

On that note, should the timer expire, I think that there should be an option to restart the instance with the same DF group (if the members of that DF group choose to, of course). Coordinating a group of new people is almost as time consuming as the fight itself. I had one DF group, last night, that was learning the fight rather well. We were making steady progress, with each attempt. We would have actually won the fight, if we actually had ten more seconds to spare (seriously, ten seconds). Of course, the timer expired, and we were kicked from the instance. The group dynamic, that we painstakingly crafted, just dissapated into the aether. There was no choice but to DF with an entirely new group. The second group I ended up with was absolute garbage. We had to spend another five to ten minutes explaining the fight, and we never got as coordinated as the first group.

If the first group had one more chance, with enough time to spare, I'm positive we would have won that fight. I'm sure there could be something that can be done to help the time management aspects of the fight, without having to nerf the dragon into a puk. The real difficulty isn't the fight, but rather coordinating a group of people, mostly entering the fight willingly blind, within the time limit.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

Absolutely none other than having fun. :3

As tank, there's no fun kiting the mobs. We tanks have been controlling mobs since Sastasha. I guess DPS gets more fun out of it pumping the canons...

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Hmmm cannons... nope didn't touch them as dps. Kept poping CDs, pots etc... and burning the dragon along with signing ballad for the pld to be able to keep flashing the mobs every so often. While the other tank and one healer were on cannons and the blm while not aoeing adds and boss on the dragon killer... Melee, other bard and myself kept the pressure on the dragon and on any adds that got out of hand. When we cleared we only used 2 dragon killer shots and were coming up on the third one.

I did this with DF group, was a first time for many if not all. Lost the first two tries, and beat it (barely) on the third try.

DF is completely doable, however there needs to be communication between players.

Ppl need to go back to stone vigil hm & castrum to learn cannon basics 101 lol
But yes there really should be a vote restart as technically u only got 3 attempts before the instance times out.
I cringe when i see no one even attempts to Limit break.
Its like what r u guys even saving it for? Lol
Adds? Why r they still there then... Hakdbdjhekskdbdkslsbdndjdbskshd doesn't have to be harder than coil guys. But i guess it just needs more time and practice before ppl come up with burn strats.

Like with anything else that is new, most people aren't going to have a clue what to do and this is not a fight where you just smash 1-2-3 on the giant boss. Get in the fight, learn what each mechanic is about and fail (or fluke a success) then get back in and TEACH YOUR GROUP what to do. I know this is a foreign concept, but most DF groups are full of sheep who will follow orders. As long as someone gives the orders, most fights like this are trivial. Either way in a few weeks everyone and their mom will know this fight and it will just be a long and boring trial for your tomes.

Make a pure tank and spank fight: "The fight is too easy. Why doesn't SE add depth and complexity to this fight!?"

Make a fight with depth and complexity: "The fight is too hard. Why doesn't SE ease up the mechanics of this fight!?"

It is actually hilarious at this point how SE cannot make you all happy no matter what they do. The fight is actually really easy, you just need to actually work with the mechanics instead of just sitting there hitting stuff.

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Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

But i guess it just needs more time and practice before ppl come up with burn strats.

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Like I said, if people cannot DPS race it to the end, it's nearly a lost cause. You HAVE to use those tanks.
There is no way unless you're like ilvl 200 because a lot of the damage from from all the cannons. There are too many adds for you kill and damage Vishap at the same time.
Without snaring him, he goes up too fast. Missing one tower cannon is a bad thing, though the text tells us
"Better not miss the next one." So it's pretty much 1 screw up, you're fine but you have to it right next [Maybe the first tower cannon
if you happen to miss..]. What kills me is:
THEY TELL YOU WHEN TO GO AND DO WHAT YOU NEED TO DO. It's not a healing intensive fight. Healer 1 can man the cannons,
so can Tank 2. I really reeeeeaalllllyyyy hope we get more things like this. People need to step it up
and trying to communicate better....I ended up doing it with my FC because I rolled the die twice and lost patience in DF
because I wanted to see the story so badly lol.

Pretty sure this new trial isn't harder than Final Coil, and OP seems to have cleared that already! ;)

Gotta join the chorus here. It is NOT a supremely hard fight.

1 DF group disbanded after the second failure (I was sad, but I had an idea of what to do), One PF group disbanded after a third failure (Not enough time for a fourth attempt, everyone suddenly "Going to: wait for the video / wait for my FC / go to bed").

Then I made my own PF group, grabbed two friends to heal. Went in as a tank, we had two attempts and figured out exactly what to do, and when to do it. We left the instance and restarted, a DPS switched to tank, I switched to Monk and manned a cannon the whole fight. Failed with 2% HP on the boss. We tried once more, knowing exactly how to do it now, and knowing why we failed: Too much focus on the mobs.

Tanks were instructed to keep the mobs under the boss as much as possible otherwise we would not target them, we missed the middle Dragon Killer (The responsible person had died), but continued with hope.... and Bang, finished it just before it reached the last set of cannons. In addition, during the time where the cannons are down and he's beating on the barrier, we did as much damage as we could, including using the LV3 LB when it became available.

It took some doing, some learning, and me for the first time in a long time making my own PF party (I hate leading) and telling people what I'd learned, but we got it down.

This is how any major story fight should be. Difficult enough to require learning, but not impossible. We missed a dragonkiller and still nailed it with a little time to spare, so it's not like there is no room for error. From initiation to completion, the successful run was 11 minutes and 8 seconds.

The fight is fine. If they changed 1 single thing, maybe, just maybe, I'd accept the dragonkillers doing a little more damage than they do.

Initial impression of this fight: I really, really don't like it. If it doesn't get toned down a notch (which I imagine it eventually will be), I can easily see a lot of people not even making it to Heavensward.

Threads like this one popping up don't surprise me one bit. Nor do all the responses touting how easy it is once you know how to do it (wow, so pretty much like everything else in the game)

I beat it in three goes with a PF group, all we had to do was learn, just like anything. I did try it in DF for one go and people would just stand in the AOE and under his feet like they were idiots.

Point being, In PF it's easy, in DF it's stupid. We had 3 of the highest ilvl on the boss itself, tanks brought adds under the dragon so cannons could get em', everyone else was on cannons, snares, and drag killer. Seemed simple to me once I had a willing to learn group.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Initial impression of this fight: I really, really don't like it. If it doesn't get toned down a notch (which I imagine it eventually will be), I can easily see a lot of people not even making it to Heavensward.

Threads like this one popping up don't surprise me one bit. Nor do all the responses touting how easy it is once you know how to do it (wow, so pretty much like everything else in the game)

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Can you tell me exactly what is hard about timing cannons, chains, and the dragonkiller? We went in with mostly a PUG group our first time and we figured everything out within minutes and beat it within the hour no problem. If you truly believe this is a hard fight to overcome, then maybe you are just not ready for Heavensward yet.

After four try's in duty finder my group beaten it we all communicated well got the job done!

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Nor do all the responses touting how easy it is once you know how to pay attention & follow directions (wow, so pretty much like everything else in the game)

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Hey, fixed that for you.

The fight's pretty simple. You just need to assign roles and you'll do well.

1) Cannons. Max 3 people.
1 on cannons / snares
1 for the DragonBuster Missile.

The DragonBuster cannot be done by someone trying to run the snares. I had someone insisting they could hnadle it with sprint, and I realised on my second run that they MISSED EVERY SINGLE TIME. Do the smart thing: Either assign a DPS to take your Cannon while you run and take the Tower, or assing a DPS straight to the cannon/Snares and handle the towers yourself.


I don't understand why people push the DPS to be on the boss. You're not gonna do more than 2k/shot like the cannons can. So why do people want DPS on the boss so badly? Little bit of a baffling one to me, really, as it just creates more stress in the front lines. As a tank I can pick up both sets of adds, but it will take a moment to grab each side. With two tanks, each one gets a side and brings them together to the middle clump. With two healers, no one dies to poison (A reoccuring theme with our solo WHM healer going OoM)

Even missing a single DragonSlayer cannon (Boss even got the column-AoE off. I had popped it when no snare was up specifically to interrupt the attack and buy some time) we never had the boss reach the wall. We took him down before he reached the last cannons. That should tell you just how little the front-line DPS need to try and push their dps. It's all about the cannons and dragonslayer cannon in my opinion.

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Can you tell me exactly what is hard about timing cannons, chains, and the dragonkiller? We went in with mostly a PUG group our first time and we figured everything out within minutes and beat it within the hour no problem.

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Beats the hell out of me, but usually by the time we get to the end the adds are overwhelming in number, usually just killing people over and over again that try to get close, and Vishap isn't even close to being dead.

There's also a ton of aoes I can't even see, due to how many (big) mobs are around, a number of which seem to be of one-hit KO potency.

Like I said, I think everything in this fight just needs to be toned down a notch, and I'm fairly confident it will be anyway.

I had some trouble.
Since I am on a JP server and I used the party finder, I was in a group where I was the only English speaker.

We nearly got it, but the timer ran out (of course everyone was new to the fight)

I had to enter 3 more PF where everyone was new AND only spoke JP. So while I knew the mechanics of the fight - no one else did. And I did what I could to communicate things (Tank adds under dragons belly please etc)

I got lucky in my next PF because it seems like some people from the daily trial were in it and so it went very, very smoothly.

It is not too hard. It's just every single person needs the opportunity to learn exactly whats going on.

it's a wonderful fight, I had fun. ^^

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Beats the hell out of me, but usually by the time we get to the end the adds are overwhelming in number, usually just killing people over and over again that try to get close, and Vishap isn't even close to being dead.

There's also a ton of aoes I can't even see, due to how many (big) mobs are around, a number of which seem to be of one-hit KO potency.

Like I said, I think everything in this fight just needs to be toned down a notch, and I'm fairly confident it will be anyway.

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You just need one tank to take the adds and bring them to the canons. Adds will die within seconds. I really don't get how this is even hard? I kind of agree with Velhart: "If you truly believe this is a hard fight to overcome, then maybe you are just not ready for Heavensward yet.".

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Beats the hell out of me, but usually by the time we get to the end the adds are overwhelming in number, usually just killing people over and over again that try to get close, and Vishap isn't even close to being dead.

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Mostly a cannoneer problem but healers/main tank to blame if they keep splitting up the mobs. Camp adds between the front legs. Cannon should hit BOTH the boss and ALL of the adds simultaneously. If it isn't, ask someone else to man the cannons.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

There's also a ton of aoes I can't even see, due to how many (big) mobs are around, a number of which seem to be of one-hit KO potency.

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Again, they need to be stacked in front. If a loose one is on you, run it to the MT. Really simple. If its reeally a one hit KO, You probably have under i90 gear... fix it.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Like I said, I think everything in this fight just needs to be toned down a notch, and I'm fairly confident it will be anyway.

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That would be a serious shame- the problem is the people not the content.

I've clear it now, and you know what? Tank job is more easier here because you only put aggro to all enemy to one place and let the cannon DPS do their job :)