Low probabilities of Triple Triad drops, big fish, etc. Grinds becoming unreal.

Fishing is particularly bad since its not only grind but grind with 0 gameplay that involves no skill. Pressing the same two buttons for weeks on end is more of an interrogation technique than a game.

I don't mind the triple triad grind as the game is fun and you are winning tokens while grinding for the cards you want and at least its new content. It's not like making atma farming where the dev's were either too cheap or lazy to add new progression content so they make you farm the same old low level stuffs for weeks.

Grind!Quota and Grind!RNG can be useful tools. however, why not combine elements of both?

Say you need 500 wins against the imperial to get a garaunteed Gaius Card, but in the meantime, on the road to that point, you have a % chance of aquiring it through RNG. Appeals to both camps, no?

Allows people who don't have RNGsus watching over them to achieve it, as well as those that strike gold on their first try.

I'm currently sitting on roughly 300 wins, split between Ramuh, Levi and Shiva and no luck there. and roughly 100 vs Imperial and no gauius.

ah well....

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

I've never once farmed for cards but I have ALL the primals so far. Thanks relic quest!!

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You don't need to farm cards to answer the question.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

You don't need to farm cards to answer the question.

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To answer your question...it's PURE RNG like just about everything in the game. Now, with that out of the way " I dont get any Cards without putting the WORK into clearing ALL those primals,coils,Raids,fates and DFs while on my way to earning a upgrade to my relic weapons."
ps: I dont want the cards. IMO,the cards are SE's way of saying "Go reclear old fights and get cards" Almost like the relic quest, but in the end you get a weapon and maybe some cards...lol

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

To answer your question...it's PURE RNG like just about everything in the game. Now, with that out of the way " I dont get any Cards without putting the WORK into clearing ALL those primals,coils,Raids,fates and DFs while on my way to earning a upgrade to my relic weapons."
ps: I dont want the cards. IMO,the cards are SE's way of saying "Go reclear old fights and get cards" Almost like the relic quest, but in the end you get a weapon and maybe some cards...lol

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We acknowledge it is RNG, that is not what I asked you. Your personal opinion on the cards itself is not what I asked either.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

So is it hard work when you go in, get a card on your first run, then leave while other people spent days worth trying to get it?

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Its ALWAYS WORK if you put the effort into anything. Yes, you might get luckly and get "WHATEVER" on the first go but its still work and it still requires effort.

ps: You'll never get me to say getting cards dosnt require hard work. The Idea of "hard work" is all relevant to whos doing the work.

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

Its ALWAYS WORK if you put the effort into anything. Yes, you might get luckly and get "WHATEVER" on the first go but its still work and it still requires effort.

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So what you are saying is, its okay if it takes Person A only 5-10 minutes to get the item, and Player B takes 5-6 days. Gotcha

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Grind is rng. They are 2 options that accomplish the same task. Quota system vs rng. Both require you to repeat something over and over. Quota says do something 10 times. Rng says 10% success rate. End result is player base as a whole spends X time (dev decided pacing) completing said content. Card farming I'd a grind (rng). Light farming is a grind (quota). They are synonymous.

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They are NOT synonymous. With a quota everyone puts in the same effort for the same reward. With RNG you might have some get lucky on their first try, and some take many times the 'average' number of tries to get the reward. You punish or reward players for circumstances they have no agency in.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

So what you are saying is, its okay if it takes Person A only 5-10 minutes to get the item, and Player B takes 5-6 days. Gotcha

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YES, its ok. Reasoning: ITS FAIR, becasue everyone has the same odds, if you are willing to do some work.

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

YES, its ok. Reasoning: ITS FAIR, becasue everyone has the same odds, if you are willing to do some work.

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Fair but not always fun. SE should get rid of the extreme unlucky outliers by making it so after x number of attempts, you are guaranteed the drop. This number should be higher than the average (i.e. not do away with the luck factor completely) but low enough so that dedicated players know they will see an eventual payoff for all their effort.

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Originally Posted by Bluejay

They are NOT synonymous. With a quota everyone puts in the same effort for the same reward. With RNG you might have some get lucky on their first try, and some take many times the 'average' number of tries to get the reward. You punish or reward players for circumstances they have no agency in.

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Missing the point. Dev goal: make players repeat content. Rng and quotas are identical at achieving that goal for a large playerbase. When you have 100s of thousands of players the statistical avg will be met and the (dev) desired levels continued replay of the content is achieved buying tike until new content is developed. They serve the same function of making players replay content. Synonymous. How it affects players on a micro scale is different and the psychological pulls are different, but still present in both.

From dev perspective they are functionally the same. Tool used to support replay. Again, some players prefer rng over quotas because they each trigger a different part of the brain that encourages you to repeat a process. Both work, but in varying degrees to different people. Not liking rng doesn't make quotas 'more right' than the rng approach. I have only been speaking about rng and quotas as tools. Not advocating. The tools will be used because there are only a very limited set to work with to encourage replay. Rng isn't going anywhere because it works.

theres a huge difference between being "fair" and being "the right thing to do" extreme rng for any player is not acceptable. there should alwaysssss be a hidden cap to avoid the extremes.

i would rather ppl remain content then so frustrated they quit.

its a horrible idea to allow such extremes in rng..horrible

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

Fair but not always fun. SE should get rid of the extreme unlucky outliers by making it so after x number of attempts, you are guaranteed the drop. This number should be higher than the average (i.e. not do away with the luck factor completely) but low enough so that dedicated players know they will see an eventual payoff for all their effort.

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Yeap, RNG may not be fun (Here's looking at you, many turns in coil,some primals fights, RPGs in a whole: example, the SMT series of one shot death spells and this games later parts of the relic quest and lastly those Cards.) but RNG keeps things fair. Me, I'd like the weapons,cards and anything else of "Rare" value to have some other way to "EARN" them.

Just throwing it out there, at this point I've completed around 200+ various hard mode primals (mostly shiva/ramuh/levi) while working on nexus light and have only gotten 2 garuda cards total. If it weren't for the nexus I'm working on I would have given up a long time ago now. It seems like there are only a handful of people in this thread defending the grind and most of them have stories of luck to tell. I get that rarity is the goal here but the 1% drop rate I've been getting seems a little low for me to enjoy it.

Special little snowflakes who got their Terra card in one run want to remain looking like special little snowflakes.

"IT COULD BE SO MUCH WORSE!" is not a defense. If you think about ever typing these words, and you're not intentionally trolling, please stop, hit the Delete button until the words have vanished from the screen, and then turn your computer off and go to bed.

Complaining about bad things is how bad things become better.

Sticking your head in the sand is how fools are exploited.

Get rid of grind. Introduce instant gratification content. Hardcore players blaze through new content in 3 days. Quit because nothing left to do. Subscription dries up. Content dries up. Game dies. WoW happy.

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Originally Posted by Radkat

Get rid of grind. Introduce instant gratification content. Hardcore players blaze through new content in 3 days. Quit because nothing left to do. Subscription dries up. Content dries up. Game dies. WoW happy.

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Cool, I'll stay. More fun for me.

That's also taking things to the very extreme, you should know.

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Originally Posted by Radkat

Get rid of grind. Introduce instant gratification content. Hardcore players blaze through new content in 3 days. Quit because nothing left to do. Subscription dries up. Content dries up. Game dies. WoW happy.

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Don't read thread. Comment on posts in thread. Make an ass out of yourself. People point it out. Go full damage control in next post. Read post calling you on this. Decide not to go damage control to "fight the man."

Cards aren't really that hard to get, or I'm just lucky? First WoD run of the week and I got the Onion Knight, I also have Ifrit and garuda cards.

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Originally Posted by Rankina

I swear, you people think this games grind is hard? Try PSO2 farming for 11/12* weapons and units, RO's atrocious drop rates... even the relic quest now isnt as bad as XI's.

"- Unable to catch Shonisaurus or Kuno the Killer (out of 4-5 30-45 min windows)."

I fkin lol'd.

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It's pretty easy to get 11/12* weapons. Just do a tower defense 3 on superhard and at the end you'll already get a full batch of 10/11/12* equips.

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Originally Posted by Redgate

Don't read thread. Comment on posts in thread. Make an ass out of yourself. People point it out. Go full damage control in next post. Read post calling you on this. Decide not to go damage control to "fight the man."

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What man? There's a man? Who is it? He taught you psychology? Or was it clairvoyance? I think you should get a refund.

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Originally Posted by Radkat

What man? There's a man? Who is it? He taught you psychology? Or was it clairvoyance? I think you should get a refund.

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If that's all you could come up with as a retort then I'm going to have to apologize for stepping on your easy-out.

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Originally Posted by Redgate

If that's all you could come up with as a retort then I'm going to have to apologize for stepping on your easy-out.

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Oh woe is me. I have been brutally stepped on. I have perished. You have prevailed. I submit to you, the victor. May this pointless bickering breath its last, as no one wants to read this spam. I hereby humbly make my difficult-out, shamed by a giant footprint.

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Originally Posted by Radkat

Oh woe is me. I have been brutally stepped on. I have perished. You have prevailed. I submit to you, the victor. May this pointless bickering breath its last, as no one wants to read this spam. I hereby humbly make my difficult-out, shamed by a giant footprint.

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Ok.

tenlimit

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Originally Posted by NoahArks

Cards aren't really that hard to get, or I'm just lucky? First WoD run of the week and I got the Onion Knight, I also have Ifrit and garuda cards.



It's pretty easy to get 11/12* weapons. Just do a tower defense 3 on superhard and at the end you'll already get a full batch of 10/11/12* equips.

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Can't really speak for the others, but 40 Garuda runs, 5 Ifrits, 3 orso Ultimas without a card. Fortunately those 3 can always be gained from NPCs. Short answer: yup, you were lucky. :)

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Originally Posted by NoahArks

Cards aren't really that hard to get, or I'm just lucky? (..)

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I am sure you are just kidding... cant be serious!
Done only WoD for Zeta weapon and had Zeta before Onion Knight card... you know: 2000 points!

Hit 50 and then everything's a grind, I agree. And once you finally finish the grind, it's more grind to get what you want. I was so excited to hit 3 star crafts but after grind I realized I had to grind even more because to make anything cute I needed rare drops from mats/desynth or grind some more on my gatherer for the mats.

Naaaah. I'm going back to games where you accept a quest and you get a reward for finishing said quest. Now that was fun, not mindlessly repeating content again and again and again to get anything done. Take the grind away and you realize how FFXIV doesn't really have that much going on outside of Hildibrand and the main scenario.

I tend to agree.... there's grind... and there's beating your head against an RNG brick wall. From my point of view, it's just been getting more and more ridiculous with added content, and the real upshot is I find myself playing less and less because of it.

I used to like fishing... but when they are coming up with stupid dice rolls one after the other like triple-mooches and 5 minute time windows (under certain weather conditions) and THEN low RNG on the bite itself.... I'm thinking to myself.... meh, this is supposed to be fun, I shouldn't be needing to come up with the statistical equivalent of winning the lottery every damn day.

ditto crafting... then I saw the new tools and the moonstones (keeping in mind I have all crafters/gathers levelled) - 60 each tool. 80k in GC seals EACH... or you can do a quest to get... wait for it... ONE per day. ONE. What nutter at SE thinks making 700-800 of ANYTHING is fun? This might be turn-ins to GCs for seals - or even making the turn-ins for the artisans tools for MC materia. They think I'm a mindless bot? Now lets say I did all that.... what is my reward? I get to craft stuff - all based on RNG, and it still gets to explode in my face, or give me NQ at 90% quality just because it can.

Have done nothing with TT and the cards. Why? Coincidentally I did my zeta weapon - 500 primals over 3 days - ONE card. That's quite enough to tell me not to waste my time farming for cards.

I could go on - atmas, alexandrites, materia melding, spirit-bonding for materia, weapon/mount/gear farming.... one crapshoot after the other, and not a single way to make the time/effort you put into it count.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rankina

I swear, you people think this games grind is hard? Try PSO2 farming for 11/12* weapons and units, RO's atrocious drop rates... even the relic quest now isnt as bad as XI's.

"- Unable to catch Shonisaurus or Kuno the Killer (out of 4-5 30-45 min windows)."

I fkin lol'd.

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nothing like some of teh original mmos like say RO which did not drop money in any way shape or form you had to gather items sell them or npc them to get your money and save it all i ever see in new mmos is how people think that this stuff shoudl just be handed to them without any real work ...

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Originally Posted by Moqi

Hit 50 and then everything's a grind, I agree. And once you finally finish the grind, it's more grind to get what you want. I was so excited to hit 3 star crafts but after grind I realized I had to grind even more because to make anything cute I needed rare drops from mats/desynth or grind some more on my gatherer for the mats.

Naaaah. I'm going back to games where you accept a quest and you get a reward for finishing said quest. Now that was fun, not mindlessly repeating content again and again and again to get anything done. Take the grind away and you realize how FFXIV doesn't really have that much going on outside of Hildibrand and the main scenario.

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you don't get to come into the game 4 years after everyone else who was in it from the beginning and talk about how hard the grind is. if you don't have the patience for grinding then by all means stop playing and go back to your mindless games that do not require a brain.

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Originally Posted by DemonFury

then by all means stop playing and go back to your mindless games that do not require a brain.

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Please explain how RNG outcomes require a brain? It's not called mindless grinding for nothing, you know.

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Originally Posted by XiXiQ

Please explain how RNG outcomes require a brain? It's not called mindless grinding for nothing, you know.

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I spent 3 days playing the imperial guy in south mor dhona trying to get a giaus card and i did finally get it but you do not hear me in here complaining about how long it took.. so like i said if you cannot handle a grind and your one of those people who think things should just be handed to you without any work at all then please go somewhere else we have enough issues already without having to put up with yours.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DemonFury

you don't get to come into the game 4 years after everyone else who was in it from the beginning and talk about how hard the grind is. if you don't have the patience for grinding then by all means stop playing and go back to your mindless games that do not require a brain.

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Lmao because farming satasha story mode for a card/zodiac drop/rare crafting mat is SO mentally challenging! This is so stupid. There is no "hard work" or "challenge" involved, it's just a time sink because ffxiv does not have a lot of content, so they stretch what they have through extensive grinds to accomplish anything.

I loved figuring out how to do 2-3 star crafts, and making my ilvl55 gear, that was fun. Making the same darn object 50 time is not, it's only so I will get bored out of my mind and try again another day and waste time. After 50 this game is a bot simulator.

Y

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Originally Posted by DemonFury

I spent 3 days playing the imperial guy in south mor dhona trying to get a giaus card and i did finally get it but you do not hear me in here complaining about how long it took.. so like i said if you cannot handle a grind and your one of those people who think things should just be handed to you without any work at all then please go somewhere else we have enough issues already without having to put up with yours.

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You've still failed to explain to me how this requires a brain.

Do you think you're smarter because it took you 3 days of grind? smarter than the person who spent 6 days on it? is the person who only played a handful of games before getting it smarter than you? How come someone had to put in no work, someone did what you did, and yet someone else had to put in twice the effort you did for the exact same outcome?

The problem is people who actually HAVE brains would like to engage them to better their outcomes, and that's not an option.

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Originally Posted by DemonFury

I spent 3 days playing the imperial guy in south mor dhona trying to get a giaus card and i did finally get it but you do not hear me in here complaining about how long it took.. so like i said if you cannot handle a grind and your one of those people who think things should just be handed to you without any work at all then please go somewhere else we have enough issues already without having to put up with yours.

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yeah but the problem is that the vast majority of this game is gated behind rng and its getting old. sometimes, there should be a safeguard. like "ok, i cant get gaius to drop, but if i beat him 300 times, its 100%". why cant this be a thing? the person put the time in, they deserve it. theres a guy right now whos beaten imperial 500+ times and still hasnt gotten gaius. he posted on reddit and had like 350 cards. thats not counting the times he won and didnt get a card.

im sure if you were in his shoes, youd cry about it too. its not getting handed to you, its putting in a ton of time and getting what you deserve. if anything, rng is what hands things to people by giving it to them on their first try sometimes. thats why i prefer the light farming, the zeta grind, animus books....bc you are working towards something guaranteed, even if it takes a long time. leave the rng to rare mounts and lotteries, but when it comes to being able to progress in a certain facet of content, it should involve very little rng, if any at all

I finally got Bahamut today. I wasn't really excited, just relieved.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

I finally got Bahamut today. I wasn't really excited, just relieved.

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^ that's exactly the feeling I'd never want to feel in a videogame but lately it's all there is to FFXIV. Gear? It's a grind, I can't even enjoy having it because it's off to the next piece; relic? ahahaha, barely any lore, cutscenes or story behind it, no new original trials; carfters? I need to make the same damn object again and again only to switch class and do the same exact rotation again and again, and then it's off to doing the same thing for the next tier, with desynthesis thrown in (which is a grind on its own) + gil and seals sinks; I have not even attempted the GS but judging by the threads made on here I made the right decision.


When I bought the game I was having a lot of fun - it felt like any other FF, with chained quests and storylines, but after 50, and especially in the latest patches, outside of Hildibrand and main scenario, it's all a grind whose only purpose is to waste time.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

And people complain about complaining :)

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and people complaining about people complaining about complainers!

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Originally Posted by Kimura410

logic

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Exactly this. But things won't ever change, because the majority people have fooled themselves into thinking MMOs shouldn't be enjoyable, just a thing you become addicted to and go through the motions with until you finally get whatever newest thing is gated behind mindless grind. When it isn't this way, people complain (see: what SE turned relic quests into after people complained about the Titan wall).

And these people won't engage you with actual logic, they'll just resort to insults and rhetoric. Either you're a whiner that wants everything handed to you or "at least it's not as bad as that even worse game," as if that's any defense. They won't acknowledge that there's an alternative or something in-between hand-outs and extreme rng grind. I'm not going to pretend lights or alex were fun, but at least it wasn't disheartening and completely demotivating as you went through, because when you puts hours of work in, you got hours worth of return. You didn't have to stand by and get nothing, while you watched other people succeed for little to no effort. God forbid you want to be on an even ground with people, that equal work provides equal reward, because "life just isn't fair."

This isn't life. It's a game.

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I'm not going to pretend lights or alex were fun, but at least it wasn't disheartening and completely demotivating as you went through, because when you puts hours of work in, you got hours worth of return.

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I thought lights were the worst. It forced me to use my WHM for everything if I wanted to get the Nexus done in a reasonable time, it was so infuriating to have to not use other classes in a game that encourages you to level everything up. I loved using my SCH over WHM for dungeons, but I would've never seen a Nexus if I kept doing that.
min
Yes to everything you said above though. When people say things like "it took me 40 runs of a dungeon I don't enjoy but you don't see me complaining" I'm like wtf!? How can you not think there is something wrong when you're playing a game and you're not having fun?

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the majority people have fooled themselves into thinking MMOs shouldn't be enjoyable, just a thing you become addicted to and go through the motions with until you finally get whatever newest thing is gated behind mindless grind.

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I actually spent a week playing PS3 games and had forgotten how much fun it was not having to grind for everything, to just go out there in the world, explore and do quests after almost a year of playing FFXIV only. I came back to FFXIV to raid, looked at my journal and thought why the hell am I wasting so much time on repeating the same thing again and again when I can play 10 minutes of FFX-2 and have more fun than 2 hours of light farming will ever give me? And I realized that if I'd do only what I found fun, I'd only have the main scenario and Hildibrand left.