Why not abolish the Class system entirely in favor of Jobs? [@ Devs]

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Originally Posted by Davorok

Choose Samurai to be a DD TP SC Scecialist (Skill Chains plz).

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lawl Battle Regimen specialist, that's as close as we can get for now, our non-existent and currently unavailable Battle Regimens.

I think it is funny that we're all talking about being able to "specialize" how we see fit. I have never seen such a generic set up of abilities. For example, we all set protect, shell, cure, sac, raise, second wind, voke, defender, shockspikes, siphon MP, stoneskin and some buffs like Raging Strike. Every person I have played with has this generic set up. All our stats are pointless, since they make no difference right now, not a substantial one at least, it doesn't matter that we can allot them as we see fit. There is no difference in races, we're all the pretty much the same. I am not seeing how this armory system is creating individuality. I do not know if a job system will fix it or not but I know right now I see less variety than I ever did in XI. I guess what I am saying is, the class system is not the best idea SE has had for character advancement.

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Originally Posted by Albio

I think it is funny that we're all talking about being able to "specialize" how we see fit. I have never seen such a generic set up of abilities. For example, we all set protect, shell, cure, sac, raise, second wind, voke, defender, shockspikes, siphon MP, stoneskin and some buffs like Raging Strike. Every person I have played with has this generic set up. All our stats are pointless, since they make no difference right now, not a substantial one at least, it doesn't matter that we can allot them as we see fit. There is no difference in races, we're all the pretty much the same. I am not seeing how this armory system is creating individuality. I do not know if a job system will fix it or not but I know right now I see less variety than I ever did in XI. I guess what I am saying is, the class system is not the best idea SE has had for character advancement.

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Let me ask you this, Where those ppl play solo? If they were, having the same set up came out of necessity. but if they were in a pt with you there just being lazy and not changing there set-up for pt. we all know stats don't do anything meaningful atm (one more bad idea by the old team) but thats not really a hit against the armory system.

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Originally Posted by akisato

Let me ask you this, Where those ppl play solo? If they were, having the same set up came out of necessity. but if they were in a pt with you there just being lazy and not changing there set-up for pt. we all know stats don't do anything meaningful atm (one more bad idea by the old team) but thats not really a hit against the armory system.

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Right now when I'm being positive about the system it comes along with expecting so many other things to be fixed/improved with it. Stats starting to matter more & working like they should. One of the biggest ones I bring up a lot is the ability to have your actions saved for each different class. Stat setups as well perhaps. That alone would help me enjoy the current class system & upcoming job additions so much more.

i haven't read the whole thread, but i'll sum up my thoughts on this idea quite clearly.

hell. no.

the classes are meant to be mix and match for solo friendly play, the jobs will be specialised for party play. Keep both, both are valid, neither will be superior to the other if done correctly.

I think the JOB system will work similar to how a talent tree from other MMO's would work.

I think it is a great idea. Gives a CON the option to nuke or heal at will.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

I think the JOB system will work similar to how a talent tree from other MMO's would work.

I think it is a great idea. Gives a CON the option to nuke or heal at will.

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Considering they already said whatever level your class is when it's unlocked = the level of the job, it's pretty much not like a class tree in that regard.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

Considering they already said whatever level your class is when it's unlocked = the level of the job, it's pretty much not like a class tree in that regard.

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it actualy is in its own way though

equip the job, your a specific role(no healing unless your a healer, no outside weaponskills and so on)
dont equip the job, you have all your multi class abilities ready with an emphesis on the class you are on, you can use them but any cross class abilities will be weak, but at least usable copmpared to main ones

I personally wish they would expand our current class system, rather than tacking a secondary job system onto it. FFXIV's class system gives much more flexibility than role-based classes in other games, where you can essentially 'roll your own' class. Want a black knight? Pick a gladiator base and add some thaum spells. Want a white mage? Mix and match the relevant con/thm spells.

The only problem currently is that we don't have enough diversity to span the full range of classes. Want a bard? Not quite possible with the current system, but could be if the current system is expanded enough (bard is unique enough to warrant its own class - it would make a fantastic DoM addition).

People keep wanting to rewrite the entire book for everything in this game while overlooking the fact that the game's base is really, really solid. The main reason that I pre-ordered the CE after playing the beta was that despite the many problems the game had, it had a fantastic base to build up from.

Such is the same here. Instead of trying to redesign the game around a second, arbitrary class-like structure to force players into different roles (something that should be moved away from anyway), expand and build on the current system. Add bards and arcanists; streamline current class abilities; add feats and other character customization options to help you build the character you want to play.

In my opinion, watering down one of the few things the game was praised for in reviews (the class system) is a mistake.

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Originally Posted by Dreamer

People keep wanting to rewrite the entire book for everything in this game while overlooking the fact that the game's base is really, really solid.

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Even SE themselves said it wasn't, we can't realistically argue against the developers of said foundation -- They also agree the foundation needs to be redone (overhauled).

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

Considering they already said whatever level your class is when it's unlocked = the level of the job, it's pretty much not like a class tree in that regard.

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Yea, what I meant was it works as a "Specialization" type system. Like Retribution or Holy is a spec on Paladin in WoW.

Same way with this, as CON, you have Black Mage or White Mage spec, SE is just calling it JOBs.

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Originally Posted by Khal_Drogo

Ya, the fact that, with "6 'sub' jobs," as you call them, people no longer have the option to play the way they want. They are, practically, FORCED to level every job.

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Huh? Quite the contrary, the Armoury System gives you the option to play exactly how you like, but that doesn't mean it doesn't continue to reward you for leveling up and unlocking abilities that build your character along the way. If you can get by with being a 1-trick pony and get the job done with one R50 class "the way you want to play" that's great, but that doesn't mean you couldn't do it better if you enriched your playstyle with supplemental abilities. But isn't that the point of it, to give you the choice and options to play how you like?

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Have you tried getting through a behest (at the recommended rank) WITHOUT having a cure spell assigned to your DD *MELEE* job? I had to do it on my brother's character because he hates leveling mages. Wanna know what happens? You die...at least once. So, unless you treat the behest like some of the worst aspects of XI (having to kite and run from monsters to beat them, constantly), you're pretty much condemned to a life of endless hp returns -or always party w/ ppl for everything. That sounds like a spectacular idea, doesn't it!

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This argument makes no sense at all coming from someone who wants more restrictive gameplay options with a Job system over our current Armoury System. What would you do in the same Behest if you were on a Job that couldn't heal? Pop Invincible on your PLD for the full 5 minutes? No, you'd still die without someone healing you. At least the Armoury System gives those willing to put the 75 seconds to get R4 on THM or CON an option to heal themselves and "play the way they want to play."

If anything, Jobs will emphasize group play further so you will become even more reliant on someone else healing you in a party. The Armoury System on the other hand gives you the option to be more self-sufficient and flexible in both solo and group scenarios.

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With a restricted number of sub jobs, SE would have a much less complex system to manage and maintain. This means that the likelihood of an Rank 25 Archer actually being able to enjoy the game without using his...mp? -would drastically increase.

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Again, it sounds like you just don't want to take full advantage of the tools available to you with the Armoury System and instead prefer to restrict yourself to some myopic vision of how a class or archetype should be played. There's nothing wrong with that, there's just always going to be someone doing it better than you because they were willing to innovate and try something different. But that's what its all about isn't it? Allowing people the option to "play the way they want to play" instead of being a cookie-cutter mold of everyone else on the same job/class.

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Originally Posted by camjay

I wouldn't mind the current plan OR the OP's idea. Both are cool. The thing that really bothers me is the whole "Cross-class Abilities". That is just bulls**t! Healing should be FOR HEALERS. Or at least only for a damn casting class I mean C'MON! And I'm sure many of you like it.. But for me this is one thing I really can't stand about the classes/skill system. Makes my char/class feel so much less unique... Like you're working for nothing. Like you have no class identity, as Yoshida would say.

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Its really not that far of a stretch for both a melee or tank type character to be a competent supplementary healer. PLD in XI was in this mold, as was Paladin in WoW. You can go as far back as Clerics in AD&D which were both heavy-plate DD AND main healers. Even in more contemporary Hack N Slash RPG titles like Diablo or Titan Quest, melee DD get a variety of abilities or weapon stats that allow them to heal or leech and recover HP. Point is, archetypes are only as restrictive as the restrictions placed upon them. In the case of XIV, those restrictions only go as far as your imagination and willingness to level other classes to supplement your character. If you don't want to take full advantage of the abilities laid out before you that's fine, but please don't advocate taking away those abilities when it will only result in a worst gameplay experience and fewer choices overall.

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Originally Posted by Chiz

Huh? Quite the contrary, the Armoury System gives you the option to play exactly how you like, but that doesn't mean it doesn't continue to reward you for leveling up and unlocking abilities that build your character along the way...This argument makes no sense at all coming from someone who wants more restrictive gameplay options with a Job system over our current Armoury System. What would you do in the same Behest if you were on a Job that couldn't heal? Pop Invincible on your PLD for the full 5 minutes? No, you'd still die without someone healing you. At least the Armoury System gives those willing to put the 75 seconds to get R4 on THM or CON an option to heal themselves and "play the way they want to play." If anything, Jobs will emphasize group play further so you will become even more reliant on someone else healing you in a party. The Armoury System on the other hand gives you the option to be more self-sufficient and flexible in both solo and group scenarios.


Again, it sounds like you just don't want to take full advantage of the tools available to you with the Armoury System and instead prefer to restrict yourself to some myopic vision of how a class or archetype should be played.

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I can't believe you consider any of that, nonsense, logical deduction. Why don't you try considering the *source of the problems that can arise when you're not "curing yourself." The current classes are all GIMP versions of what they could be as a dedicated role. It's BECAUSE we have so many ways to "beef" up our classes w/ cures and tp cures and defensive abs, and so on, that SE won't *allow* them to be good *jobs. So, instead of being an incredibly destructive melee, that has no need for a cure because his wpn completely and utterly decimates it's opposition, we're forced to whittle away at a monsters hp, one insignificant hit at a time, while desperately trying to cure ourselves with the stupid cures attained through our "flexible" class system (ya right...), and they intend for us to do it w/ gimp MP as well.

Solution: "Beef up destructive power, so that melee's don't *have to equip cures if they don't want to" -is that your response? Someone else mentioned, before, that the current system is basically like XI's job system for melee because the mp we have as non-DoM is nearly as pathetic as having a mage job as a sub on a melee -brilliant deduction. However, no matter how insignificant the "assistance" that the mp can offer a class, it will always make it *more* effective than the other ppl who just don't want to be a healer AT ALL, and don't want to have to cure themselves. And again, it forces ppl "out of the loop" b/c no one will want a DD who keeps dying b/c he can never get "more hp, once he's lost it." SE needs to focus on making classes *better at what they do. It's one thing to have DoW draw from the benefits of other DoW classes, but to let cures, and buffs and all this other nonsense leak in as well, is just retarded.

You wanna know what jobs bring to the table? BALANCE -I could go on, but I've proven my point well enough... Next time, "Think before you speak."

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Originally Posted by Albio

I think it is funny that we're all talking about being able to "specialize" how we see fit. I have never seen such a generic set up of abilities. For example, we all set protect, shell, cure, sac, raise, second wind, voke, defender, shockspikes, siphon MP, stoneskin and some buffs like Raging Strike. Every person I have played with has this generic set up. All our stats are pointless, since they make no difference right now, not a substantial one at least, it doesn't matter that we can allot them as we see fit. There is no difference in races, we're all the pretty much the same. I am not seeing how this armory system is creating individuality. I do not know if a job system will fix it or not but I know right now I see less variety than I ever did in XI. I guess what I am saying is, the class system is not the best idea SE has had for character advancement.

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This used to be the case somewhat prior to 1.18 but one simple change with the removal of the Stamina bar, along with the increase in MP cost for heals changed all of this. The Stamina bar removal was the biggest change because most abilities from other classes just weren't used often due to the fact most people were usually in a Stamina-deficit while building TP with attacks and WS'ing. The new system with no Stamina concern changes all of this and rewards you instead for popping abilities on CD as much as possible.

The cost of MP change has also forced players, particularly melee-types, to rethink their survival strategies. You can't just spam C3 or S3 endlessly as a GLA anymore to keep yourself up and hold hate, you really have to save those for when it counts. But you have other options like Featherfoot, Foresight, Decoy, Diversion, Second Wind, Defender etc. to help keep you alive and reduce damage taken. All of these abilities except for maybe Decoy/Diversion can be obtained quickly at a relatively low level, so if you want to tank there's really no reason not to have them.

Anyways, point is that a few changes to specific abilities or gameplay mechanics can have a profound impact on defining class-roles and capabilities. These are the kinds of tweaks I would advocate in an effort to fix the current system rather than the much ado about nothing approach the dev team is currently taking. I hope I'm wrong, but I think we're just going to end up with a more restrictive, less enjoyable class/job system in lieu of 6-8 months the dev team could've been working to produce actual content for the current Class system.

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Originally Posted by Khal_Drogo

I can't believe you consider any of that, nonsense, logical deduction. Why don't you try considering the *source of the problems that can arise when you're not "curing yourself." The current classes are all GIMP versions of what they could be as a dedicated role. It's BECAUSE we have so many ways to "beef" up our classes w/ cures and tp cures and defensive abs, and so on, that SE won't *allow* them to be good *jobs. So, instead of being an incredibly destructive melee, that has no need for a cure because his wpn completely and utterly decimates it's opposition, we're forced to whittle away at a monsters hp, one insignificant hit at a time, while desperately trying to cure ourselves with the stupid cures attained through our "flexible" class system (ya right...), and they intend for us to do it w/ gimp MP as well.

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Yes it is a logical deconstruction of the logical fallacies presented in your example. Fact of the matter is, Jobs will NOT solve any of your complaints, they will only exacerbate them. If you don't want to heal yourself, you are going to be even more reliant on other people to heal you. At least with the Armoury System, those willing to heal themselves have the option, and for many that is a BETTER option than NO option. How is this hard to understand?

As for being gimp versions of what they could be lol...I think the only people with this complaint are the ones who don't bother to enlighten themselves by taking the time to level and obtain additional supplemental abilities from other classes. I don't think you will see any good DDs complain about the damage from 3xMultishot/Chaos Thrust/Maim/Victimize fully buffed with Raging Strike + Ferocity + Blindside + Cadence stacked on the back-end of a BR. Realistically you only need a few of those buffs at once to maximize your cooldowns but you should get the point.

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Solution: "Beef up destructive power, so that melee's don't *have to equip cures if they don't want to" -is that your response? Someone else mentioned, before, that the current system is basically like XI's job system for melee because the mp we have as non-DoW is nearly as pathetic as having a mage job as a sub on a melee -brilliant deduction. However, no matter how insignificant the "assistance" that the mp can offer a class, it will always make it *more* effective than the other ppl who just don't want to be a healer AT ALL, and don't want to have to cure themselves. And again, it forces ppl "out of the loop" b/c no one will want a DD who keeps dying b/c he can never get "more hp, once he's lost it." SE needs to focus on making classes *better at what they do. It's one thing to have DoW draw from the benefits of other DoW classes, but to let cures, and buffs and all this other nonsense leak in as well, is just retarded.

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So your solution is going to be beef up damage to the point you can 1-shot every mob? Because otherwise, you will still run into the same problems you are whining about, you will need heals one way or another. The difference is, you have the CHOICE to heal yourself with the Armoury system where you have no choice with the strict archetype system you're advocating. What's more retarded? Advocating a change that does nothing to address your concerns? Or advocating the removal of a system already in place that at least gives people an option? Here's a hint, you're doing both atm.

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You wanna know what jobs bring to the table? BALANCE -I could go on, but I've proven my point well enough... Next time, "Think before you speak."

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Uh, please don't go on, but if you do, try "taking some of your own advice."

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Originally Posted by Khal_Drogo

I can't believe you consider any of that, nonsense, logical deduction. Why don't you try considering the *source of the problems that can arise when you're not "curing yourself." The current classes are all GIMP versions of what they could be as a dedicated role. It's BECAUSE we have so many ways to "beef" up our classes w/ cures and tp cures and defensive abs, and so on, that SE won't *allow* them to be good *jobs. So, instead of being an incredibly destructive melee, that has no need for a cure because his wpn completely and utterly decimates it's opposition, we're forced to whittle away at a monsters hp, one insignificant hit at a time, while desperately trying to cure ourselves with the stupid cures attained through our "flexible" class system (ya right...), and they intend for us to do it w/ gimp MP as well.

Solution: "Beef up destructive power, so that melee's don't *have to equip cures if they don't want to" -is that your response? Someone else mentioned, before, that the current system is basically like XI's job system for melee because the mp we have as non-DoW is nearly as pathetic as having a mage job as a sub on a melee -brilliant deduction. However, no matter how insignificant the "assistance" that the mp can offer a class, it will always make it *more* effective than the other ppl who just don't want to be a healer AT ALL, and don't want to have to cure themselves. And again, it forces ppl "out of the loop" b/c no one will want a DD who keeps dying b/c he can never get "more hp, once he's lost it." SE needs to focus on making classes *better at what they do. It's one thing to have DoW draw from the benefits of other DoW classes, but to let cures, and buffs and all this other nonsense leak in as well, is just retarded.

You wanna know what jobs bring to the table? BALANCE -I could go on, but I've proven my point well enough... Next time, "Think before you speak."

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ah, you must be new here, welcome to a Final Fantasy game.

Not going to read all 177 posts (as of right now) but basically, that's a horrible idea.

Classes are for solo.

Jobs are for groups.

That is the intended structure of the coming system. If we had only jobs then you'd be completely screwing the people who level a bit here and there solo because they don't have the time to spend waiting around getting a group started.

I'll use myself as an example. I play in groups a lot for various things but in my downtime when I don't have a group or a lot of time I just grab some leves and level my Marauder solo. The flexibility of the class system affords me the survivability necessary to complete leves solo without too much trouble. With jobs I would not be able to do that as they fill a very specific role that generally doesn't lend itself to soloing.

Having the job system layered on top of the class system keeps both camps happy. Solo players have their flexible system with added survivability, group players have their highly defined roles that each bring something unique to the table.

I like this current class system, but it does have more (a lot more) room for growth and diversity. I think it would be a very bad idea to go back to, or make some sort of spin-off of the old FFXI job system. Also, I think the reset timer for all leves should be lowered to lets say half of what it currently is now. Instead of 36 hour reset, how about 18 hours? Is that a good idea? Or, is the current timer settings satisfactory? Lastly, I hate it when you have to highlight your mob, then take out your weapon(or in reverse), and then lock-on with the C key. I love the auto-attack feature and the removal of the stamina system, but I wish that the Dev's would change the way you target a mob. I think it would be better if you highlight your mob and then when you press [enter] your character would fully lock-on right away, automatically take out his weapon, and then attack, of course, with the option to un-lock off of the mob with the C key at any time so that you can work on other mobs at the same time. One more thing, after the fight, you have the option to manually put away your weapon so that if there's still mobs around then you can move on right away and attack the next one. Would suck, big time, if your character would automatically put away his weapon after every fight lol! :P

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Originally Posted by Chiz

So your solution is going to be beef up damage to the point you can 1-shot every mob? Because otherwise, you will still run into the same problems you are whining about, you will need heals one way or another. The difference is, you have the CHOICE to heal yourself with the Armoury system where you have no choice with the strict archetype system you're advocating. What's more retarded? Advocating a change that does nothing to address your concerns? Or advocating the removal of a system already in place that at least gives people an option? Here's a hint, you're doing both atm.


Uh, please don't go on, but if you do, try "taking some of your own advice."

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Um...once again you display a level of arrogance beyond human comprehension. I'm only choosing to post this section of your txt, because it's extremely dull reading the same stupid argument over and over and over again said in a different way, and I don't feel like going through each "assumption" and explaining why you were wrong. Did you even bother reading my suggestion? Maybe you did, but you lack imagination, so you can't see how to "fix" things w/o cure. Are you really so ignorant that you don't think SE is capable of coming up w/ innovative ways to keep classes soloing w/o "one-hitting every mob?" -By the way, that was a really unimaginative idea of the only possible way to survive w/o cures. Have you heard of the ability "Second Wind" by any chance? That's a PGL action. Have you, perhaps heard of MRD, and "Blood Bath?" And then, of course, we have "Speed Surge" and "Life Surge" on LNC; that's another interesting one. Well, LOOKY there -a couple of ways to survive w/o cure and 1-hitting mobs!? And here I thought we mere mortals were not capable of such impossible tasks!

Maybe you only lvl'd one DD, and lvl'd both the mages because you were too dense to understand that there are "other options" (just not as good of ones at this point); or maybe you forgot that they were there. Regardless of the reasons for it, your rant about how everything word uttered from your mouth, manifested on the forums is logical, now, just seems a little ridiculous. I don't know EXACTLY what needs to be done, but just because YOU can "get by" w/ the current system doesn't mean you dismiss other ppl's better ideas. I don't want to *settle. I want to get as close to "perfection" as possible.


Mages capitalize on mp and spells; and melees capitalize on TP and abilities. That's how it should be. SE could lower the recast time on things like Second Wind and Blood Bath, or they could increase the effectiveness of them, or come up w/ some kind of other stuff like "Rejuvenation" (focus your efforts on recovery, and regenerate hp over time) or "Adrenalin Rush" (Access your battle-will and recover health while dealing greater damage to target), or something...I'm just throwing random stuff out there. There's a lot they could do. I like DoW and DoM -I don't like pathetic hybrids. Keep them separate plz. I don't want to always feel like I'm a RDM in XI trying to solo easy prey mobs.

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Originally Posted by Khal_Drogo

Bunch of stuff only made possible through the ARMOURY SYSTEM

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Thanks for proving my point, the Armoury System allows you to play how you want to play and provides a vast array of ways in which to accomplish it. The Job system will largely remove the ability to "Cure" yourself if that is not your job's main role.

But it seems you are fixated on the semantics of "Cure" when most people understand that term encompasses ANY ability that allows you to recover lost Hit Points. Who cares what its called? If you had an ability to "Spawn Dingleberry" that used "Mulch Points" to recover HP what difference would it make that its not called "Cure" and doesn't use "MP"? Would it make you feel better if melee got "Power" or "Rage" to spend on "Morale Boosts" instead?

It actually sounds like you want a Diablo-style Barb that leeches HP while dealing damage, in essence, a melee-DD that is self-sufficient on healing. Unfortunately you don't seem to understand that you're arguing against the system that gives you this kind of independence to some degree while advocating the one that will most likely take it away.

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Originally Posted by Chiz

Thanks for proving my point, the Armoury System allows you to play how you want to play and provides a vast array of ways in which to accomplish it. The Job system will largely remove the ability to "Cure" yourself if that is not your job's main role.

But it seems you are fixated on the semantics of "Cure" when most people understand that term encompasses ANY ability that allows you to recover lost Hit Points. Who cares what its called? If you had an ability to "Spawn Dingleberry" that used "Mulch Points" to recover HP what difference would it make that its not called "Cure" and doesn't use "MP"? Would it make you feel better if melee got "Power" or "Rage" to spend on "Morale Boosts" instead?

It actually sounds like you want a Diablo-style Barb that leeches HP while dealing damage, in essence, a melee-DD that is self-sufficient on healing. Unfortunately you don't seem to understand that you're arguing against the system that gives you this kind of independence to some degree while advocating the one that will most likely take it away.

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Wow, you really don't understand the concept of "critical thinking" do you. Try actually analyzing the words you read, and uncovering a recurring theme. As I said, those were just SUGGESTIONS. Hell, I even said I don't really know what EXACTLY should be done. What I do know, however, is that I don't like extensive cross-overs, and neither do a lot of other ppl. I would prefer for EACH job to have it's own form of "cure," (to use the term, generally, rather than literally), but that's not the only way to solve the issue. I just don't know what is the right way w/o diablo w/e you were saying... Because for one, the armory system only opens up that option if we're willing to lvl 10 different jobs (exaggerating a bit, but HOPEFULLY you get the point). What if someone absolutely despises thm and cnj, or mrd, or pgl, or any other number of jobs...What if all they like is ARC, for example (don't think it has any of it's own cures)? Are you proposing that the only way for ppl to solo on this game should be accomplished by *forcing them to lvl jobs they don't even like?

With a job/sub job system, or anything other than the armory system, SE would be a lot more efficient w/ maintaining balance. It's much easier to evaluate *one* thing, individually, than an infinite number of combinations across an array of some-odd number of classes. Plz try to think outside of *your* little box every now and then. Consider other ppl's feelings, and not just your own -I beg of you. Nothing gets accomplished w/ close-minded thinking. Just because it's the way the game began, doesn't mean it's what the game should *continue.

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Originally Posted by Khal_Drogo

Wow, you really don't understand the concept of "critical thinking" do you. Try actually analyzing the words you read, and uncovering a recurring theme. As I said, those were just SUGGESTIONS. Hell, I even said I don't really know what EXACTLY should be done. What I do know, however, is that I don't like extensive cross-overs, and neither do a lot of other ppl. I would prefer for EACH job to have it's own form of "cure," (to use the term, generally, rather than literally), but that's not the only way to solve the issue. I just don't know what is the right way w/o diablo w/e you were saying... Because for one, the armory system only opens up that option if we're willing to lvl 10 different jobs (exaggerating a bit, but HOPEFULLY you get the point). What if someone absolutely despises thm and cnj, or mrd, or pgl, or any other number of jobs...What if all they like is ARC, for example (don't think it has any of it's own cures)? Are you proposing that the only way for ppl to solo on this game should be accomplished by *forcing them to lvl jobs they don't even like?

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As i read this it made me think of children who don't like to eat their vegetables because they aren't sweet.

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Originally Posted by Khal_Drogo

With a job/sub job system, or anything other than the armory system, SE would be a lot more efficient w/ maintaining balance. It's much easier to evaluate *one* thing, individually, than an infinite number of combinations across an array of some-odd number of classes. Plz try to think outside of *your* little box every now and then. Consider other ppl's feelings, and not just your own -I beg of you. Nothing gets accomplished w/ close-minded thinking. Just because it's the way the game began, doesn't mean it's what the game should *continue.

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Most of what you said here is meaningless us big kids stay away for personal attacks. As far as the number of combo for ablities there are far less if you think of role not class.

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Originally Posted by akisato

us big kids stay away for personal attacks.

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Apparently not.

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Originally Posted by Commat

Apparently not.

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Quite true.
I see what you did there (the same thing as me), LOL.

But it seems you forgot to add somethhing to the discussion hope this is just an oversight on my part.

I would prefer it if they would not half ass it and just implement the job system and banish classes from existence. It would be necessary to let people class change once, or swap classes around once into something they're comfortable with.

My primary choice would be for them to not use the job system at all and only use the Armoury system but they've already strung the whole world along too far. So I hope they see that having a half assed character system is going to really hurt this game's appeal, no matter how hard they can convince themselves that it makes sense. I'm fairly certain that anyone taking an objective, fresh look at whatever they finally cook up will just conclude that it's a terrible system.

An example of half assing it: saying they're keeping classes but then reassigning some class actions. Say what?? It's like grafting a monkey head onto a cow. Just be done with it and put the class system out of it's misery.

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Originally Posted by Albio

I think it is funny that we're all talking about being able to "specialize" how we see fit. I have never seen such a generic set up of abilities. For example, we all set protect, shell, cure, sac, raise, second wind, voke, defender, shockspikes, siphon MP, stoneskin and some buffs like Raging Strike. Every person I have played with has this generic set up. All our stats are pointless, since they make no difference right now, not a substantial one at least, it doesn't matter that we can allot them as we see fit. There is no difference in races, we're all the pretty much the same. I am not seeing how this armory system is creating individuality. I do not know if a job system will fix it or not but I know right now I see less variety than I ever did in XI. I guess what I am saying is, the class system is not the best idea SE has had for character advancement.

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Exactly right. Actually, it's more sad than funny. :/
Armoury system while theoretically sounds fun and versatile, is quite short sighted.
There are far too many issues with it to count.
I think that's given, with SE's plans for drastic changes and overhaul of battle/class system and introduction of Jobs.
It just never ceases to amaze me how mind-boggling it is that some people are still defending this Abomination System when SE is trying to fix the damn thing and overhaul the whole system from the ground up and introduce a new Job system on top of that.

To get back on topic though, Job system while not entirely addressing this Abomination System, it is an attempt at a step forward in the right direction, it is the series defining trademark afterall as Yoshi put it, but i'll have to agree with OP. As i had mentioned in another thread, Keep one simple yet deep system rather than two. They're opening a can of worms. The Armoury system, after one year is still far from efficient and is still being addressed and will continue to be addressed. Now they have 2 systems to work on, cater for and balance, as well as the fact that the whole rest of the game will be thoroughly involved by this decision - content, mobs, difficulty, casuals/hardcore/solo/party, lore/story.
Is that a wise decision to make in the current state of the game?
Why not ditch class system and just have full focus on new job system and expand on it to cater for all sorts of players?

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Originally Posted by Neptune

I would prefer it if they would not half ass it and just implement the job system and banish classes from existence. It would be necessary to let people class change once, or swap classes around once into something they're comfortable with.

My primary choice would be for them to not use the job system at all and only use the Armoury system but they've already strung the whole world along too far. So I hope they see that having a half assed character system is going to really hurt this game's appeal, no matter how hard they can convince themselves that it makes sense. I'm fairly certain that anyone taking an objective, fresh look at whatever they finally cook up will just conclude that it's a terrible system.

An example of half assing it: saying they're keeping classes but then reassigning some class actions. Say what?? It's like grafting a monkey head onto a cow. Just be done with it and put the class system out of it's misery.

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Yes, This is the harsh reality and outcome of these plans. half assed system.
The Abomination system is no more and job system is not solid enough for all players to use.

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Just be done with it and put the class system out of it's misery.

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Just Pull the trigger now SE, you know you want to. do it! This will be your turning point for this game. You wont look back.

You already replaced the whole dev team, your redesigning the whole world, let the past team's work R.I.P. Bring on the goodness, let this game shine as it's meant to!

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Originally Posted by Gennosuke

Armoury system while theoretically sounds fun and versatile, is quite short sighted.
There are far too many issues with it to count.

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If they're so many you wouldn't mind listing some for us would you? (other then the names are wrong.)

2 points i would like to make to the OP, sorry to state the obvious lol

LNC cant be called DRG unless they add the pet.

And why should they rename the classes anyways?

they might as well rename the race's to taru galks etc..

why not start a thread called "rename Final Fantasy XIV to Final Fantasy XI 2"

If they become to alike the only diffrence will be the graphics. Now dont get me wrong i loved XI and played it for a long time and i am enjoying XIV yet i agree it still needs alot of work to become a great game. but i think stepping back to XI everything someone dose not like something is a bit stupid. I'm just sayin'

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Originally Posted by Kurai

2 points i would like to make to the OP, sorry to state the obvious lol

LNC cant be called DRG unless they add the pet.

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It's perfectly within the bounds to have a DRG without the pet.

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Originally Posted by Khal_Drogo

Wow, you really don't understand the concept of "critical thinking" do you. Try actually analyzing the words you read, and uncovering a recurring theme. As I said, those were just SUGGESTIONS. Hell, I even said I don't really know what EXACTLY should be done. What I do know, however, is that I don't like extensive cross-overs, and neither do a lot of other ppl.

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I understand the concept quite well, which has allowed me to easily dissect and refute your weak arguments....arguments which ultimately contradict what you think you want but actually support what you're arguing against. All your arguments boil down to semantics about ability names and origin, which in itself, is quite sad. Surely you played XI enough to realize both PLD and DRK did the unthinkable by casting white and black magics with....*gasp* MP......

Sarcasm aside, the Armoury System currently accomplishes what it sets out to do, it allows enough flexibility so that any single Class is not pidgeon-holed or gimped to the point it is completely useless in some situations but also ensures they are unable to take on roles it was not meant to fill for extended periods of time.

THM or CON can no longer tank the hardest content in the game efficiently due to the MP changes and a few nerfs to key abilities. GLA can not be a tank and deal the highest DPS, or be a main healer. DD classes can spec to either DD effectively, or tank, but not both simultaneously....and they can never be main healers. But all classes can use other abilities to cater to specific party needs thereby making the group dynamic stronger. This sounds like its working as intended.

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I would prefer for EACH job to have it's own form of "cure," (to use the term, generally, rather than literally), but that's not the only way to solve the issue. I just don't know what is the right way w/o diablo w/e you were saying... Because for one, the armory system only opens up that option if we're willing to lvl 10 different jobs (exaggerating a bit, but HOPEFULLY you get the point). What if someone absolutely despises thm and cnj, or mrd, or pgl, or any other number of jobs...What if all they like is ARC, for example (don't think it has any of it's own cures)? Are you proposing that the only way for ppl to solo on this game should be accomplished by *forcing them to lvl jobs they don't even like?

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Again, if you think you can get by leveling 1 class that's your prerogative. I don't see how this will be any different however from that 75DRG/30WAR or 75WHM/17BLM that wonders why he can't get a party.

You said you want every class to have the same capabilities, like being able to heal in their own way, but the Job system you're arguing for all but guarantees this *WON'T* happen.

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With a job/sub job system, or anything other than the armory system, SE would be a lot more efficient w/ maintaining balance. It's much easier to evaluate *one* thing, individually, than an infinite number of combinations across an array of some-odd number of classes. Plz try to think outside of *your* little box every now and then. Consider other ppl's feelings, and not just your own -I beg of you. Nothing gets accomplished w/ close-minded thinking. Just because it's the way the game began, doesn't mean it's what the game should *continue.

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It never ceases to amaze me how some people will argue against a system that actually gives them what they want while advocating a system that's largely an unknown commodity that will most likely dash any hopes of what they're lobbying for. The Armoury System already gives you what you want, in the time you've spent arguing against it you could've easily leveled 2-3 classes to 20 and started enjoying/enriching your character.

It seems however you have very limited experience with the game in general. I would say try to get every class to 20 before you fully endorse or condemn the Armoury system. Maybe it'll get you to think outside your "little box" and expand your horizons by coaxing you into trying some classes and abilities you might have felt were out of your comfort zone....

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Originally Posted by Kurai

LNC cant be called DRG unless they add the pet.

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Joke post?

But seriously, That pet-using abomination in FFXI isn't the definition of a Dragoon. Spear + armor + jumping high into the air, dropping down at terminal velocity and stabbing people with said spear = Dragoon.

Basically, Kain Highwind.

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Originally Posted by Gennosuke

Exactly right. Actually, it's more sad than funny. :/
Armoury system while theoretically sounds fun and versatile, is quite short sighted.
There are far too many issues with it to count.
I think that's given, with SE's plans for drastic changes and overhaul of battle/class system and introduction of Jobs.
It just never ceases to amaze me how mind-boggling it is that some people are still defending this Abomination System when SE is trying to fix the damn thing and overhaul the whole system from the ground up and introduce a new Job system on top of that.

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Likewise, it never ceases to amaze me how people are willing to advocate change toward a new system that is worst than the existing system in just about every way.

I get the main complaints about the Armoury system, its usually from people who want their class to have their 1 special thing without being encroached upon by others who can spec it on another class, or those who don't want to feel like they have to level every class to 50 to ungimp themselves. And I get all that.

But there's very easy fixes to accomplish this balance/class/job flavor within the existing contruct of the Class system. Just lock more abilities to main Class only. Limit how many abilities you can use from other classes. Hell, even lock crossover abilities to 1/2 of main class. Then you'd ultimately have the XI job system but you would have ALL jobs to choose from for any class, not just 1.

Given how many XI fans seem to want the Job/subjob system, yourself included, I find it hard to believe you don't see this as a better alternative to a strict Job system that limits its abilities to a subset of a single Class. XI's subjob system was ground-breaking for an MMO, but everyone knows it still had its limitations as the number of useful subjobs were extremely limited.

You mock the Armoury system as an abomination that limits actual choices where everyone flocks to the same abilities.....but somehow the SJ system is OK? The difference is that XIV actually allows you to choose abilities individually because they are better.....XI made that choice for you and you only get to choose which one is the best available.

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LNC cant be called DRG unless they add the pet.

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Hah! Hmm....

FF2 - Ricard Highwind had no dragon pet.
FF3 - Dragoon had Jump abilities, no pets.
FF4 - Kain Highwind had no dragon pet.
FF5 - Dragoon class did not come with a pet.
FF6 - Pet was not required to use Dragoon like relics.
FF7 - Cid Highwind did not use a pet, he did use an airship however. :P
FF8 - Ward had Jump and a Spear, but no pet.
FF9 - Freya Crescent had no dragon pet.
FF10 - Kimahri Ronso did not use a pet.
FF11 - Hey! Dragoons do get a pet in this one!
FF13 - Fang did have a pet! It was Bahamut, used the Highwind ability. :D
FFT - Lancers did not have pets.
FFTA - Dragoons did not use pets.
FFTA2 - Dragoons did not use pets.
FFIV-2 - Kain still doesn't use a pet.
FFXII:RW - Llyud had Jump and a Spear, but no pet.
Chocobo Dungeon: Can unlock Dragoon, but it is the pet itself using Dragoon abilities! Haha

So it looks like only one out of this list actually had a pet. >_>

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Originally Posted by Chiz

This used to be the case somewhat prior to 1.18 but one simple change with the removal of the Stamina bar, along with the increase in MP cost for heals changed all of this. The Stamina bar removal was the biggest change because most abilities from other classes just weren't used often due to the fact most people were usually in a Stamina-deficit while building TP with attacks and WS'ing. The new system with no Stamina concern changes all of this and rewards you instead for popping abilities on CD as much as possible.

The cost of MP change has also forced players, particularly melee-types, to rethink their survival strategies. You can't just spam C3 or S3 endlessly as a GLA anymore to keep yourself up and hold hate, you really have to save those for when it counts. But you have other options like Featherfoot, Foresight, Decoy, Diversion, Second Wind, Defender etc. to help keep you alive and reduce damage taken. All of these abilities except for maybe Decoy/Diversion can be obtained quickly at a relatively low level, so if you want to tank there's really no reason not to have them.

Anyways, point is that a few changes to specific abilities or gameplay mechanics can have a profound impact on defining class-roles and capabilities. These are the kinds of tweaks I would advocate in an effort to fix the current system rather than the much ado about nothing approach the dev team is currently taking. I hope I'm wrong, but I think we're just going to end up with a more restrictive, less enjoyable class/job system in lieu of 6-8 months the dev team could've been working to produce actual content for the current Class system.

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I understand what you're saying but still, with all those "tanking" abilities set, we're all still doing the exact same thing. Same abilities are still set, same fighting style still used. I understand that the job system also has limitations but at least when I am partying with a job system I have unique role to fulfill that no one else in the pt has, and same for my party members. Why everyone wants to be able to do everything from one job while we're on an MMORPG, where we're supposed to be interacting with other people is beyond me. If you want to solo everything, not you specifically, but anyone in general, go play a console game. I like having to rely on my fellow players for things and I like that they have to rely on me for things. It's fun and gives a sense of adventure, well the most you can get from sitting on your ass playing a game. Lol.

And also, I have almost all of my classes to 50 and most of my abilities go unused, the same is true for most of my friends, we all use the same few abilities from each job, SE could maybe fix this by making other abilities more useful or giving situations where we can actually use them. An example of something pointless, why is there an option to AoE nukes when you can only claim one mob at a time? That seems pretty silly to me. At this point, I think it's pretty obvious the current system isn't working, why push forward with something that is failing? That is like bashing your head into a wall, about as productive too. I think starting from the ground up is a good plan, don't know where it would lead, but we all see where this system has led so let's try something new. My last complaint, I am ranting, are the names, I know it's just semantics and seems trivial, but I like Final Fantasy lore and so enjoy the traditional names like Black Mage or Paladin. And also, Thaumaturge is a religious official type person, why is THM in the game so dark and twisted? It's things like this that annoy me to no end. I am gonna shut up now, have a nice day everyone, thank you for taking the time to read my craziness! :D

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Originally Posted by Chiz

I understand the concept quite well, which has allowed me to easily dissect and refute your weak arguments....arguments which ultimately contradict what you think you want but actually support what you're arguing against. All your arguments boil down to semantics about ability names and origin, which in itself, is quite sad. Surely you played XI enough to realize both PLD and DRK did the unthinkable by casting white and black magics with....*gasp* MP......

Sarcasm aside, the Armoury System currently accomplishes what it sets out to do, it allows enough flexibility so that any single Class is not pidgeon-holed or gimped to the point it is completely useless in some situations but also ensures they are unable to take on roles it was not meant to fill for extended periods of time.

THM or CON can no longer tank the hardest content in the game efficiently due to the MP changes and a few nerfs to key abilities. GLA can not be a tank and deal the highest DPS, or be a main healer. DD classes can spec to either DD effectively, or tank, but not both simultaneously....and they can never be main healers. But all classes can use other abilities to cater to specific party needs thereby making the group dynamic stronger. This sounds like its working as intended.


Again, if you think you can get by leveling 1 class that's your prerogative. I don't see how this will be any different however from that 75DRG/30WAR or 75WHM/17BLM that wonders why he can't get a party.

You said you want every class to have the same capabilities, like being able to heal in their own way, but the Job system you're arguing for all but guarantees this *WON'T* happen.


It never ceases to amaze me how some people will argue against a system that actually gives them what they want while advocating a system that's largely an unknown commodity that will most likely dash any hopes of what they're lobbying for. The Armoury System already gives you what you want, in the time you've spent arguing against it you could've easily leveled 2-3 classes to 20 and started enjoying/enriching your character.

It seems however you have very limited experience with the game in general. I would say try to get every class to 20 before you fully endorse or condemn the Armoury system. Maybe it'll get you to think outside your "little box" and expand your horizons by coaxing you into trying some classes and abilities you might have felt were out of your comfort zone....

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Just had to say that I <3 this post.

While I don't think that the armoury system is perfect, it is getting there. The system really doesn't have any glaring imbalances anymore. It forces people to think about their build/skill setup more than a job system would, but I would much rather have that than be forced into a class based role at all times. I like that on my CON alone, I have multiple builds that I can switch between just by using a couple of macros, and I couldn't do that without the armoury system.

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Originally Posted by Albio

I understand what you're saying but still, with all those "tanking" abilities set, we're all still doing the exact same thing. Same abilities are still set, same fighting style still used. I understand that the job system also has limitations but at least when I am partying with a job system I have unique role to fulfill that no one else in the pt has, and same for my party members. Why everyone wants to be able to do everything from one job while we're on an MMORPG, where we're supposed to be interacting with other people is beyond me. If you want to solo everything, not you specifically, but anyone in general, go play a console game. I like having to rely on my fellow players for things and I like that they have to rely on me for things. It's fun and gives a sense of adventure, well the most you can get from sitting on your ass playing a game. Lol.

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You can still fulfill specific roles while in party with the armoury system. It's not like the skills that you are allowed to equip are limitless, you pretty much have to force yourself into some sort of comprehensible skillset if you want the skills to work together well. The great thing about the armoury system is that as long as you have put the work into multiple classes, you have more options for alternate builds on one class. You aren't pigeon-holed into a corner where you can ONLY have abilities from one or two classes, but you aren't given the space to have enough abilities that you're godly, either.

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Originally Posted by Chiz

I understand the concept quite well, which has allowed me to easily dissect and refute your weak arguments....arguments which ultimately contradict what you think you want but actually support what you're arguing against. All your arguments boil down to semantics about ability names and origin, which in itself, is quite sad. Surely you played XI enough to realize both PLD and DRK did the unthinkable by casting white and black magics with....*gasp* MP......

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First of all, please stop assuming to understand *EXACTLY* what I want, since I [thought] I made it very clear, that even I don't KNOW exactly what I want.[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.] And for your information, aside from crafts, I WAS planning to lvl every single job well past 20, until I realized that every *smart* player on the server was going to join me. Do you know what was great about the job system? You only had to pick TWO. I don't want ppl to be able to look at my character, see what abilities I use, and say "oh, that DOES work better, I'll just equip them." [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.] If you're ALLOWED to equip a handful of abilities from every single job, who in their right mind WOULDN'T do it. Unlike you, I consider *other ppl's feelings and concerns as well. I wouldn't want to come off as some selfish, ignorant ***.

Secondly, I have no problem w/ PLD and DRK using mp since that's what they were *DESIGNED to do from the beginning of the game. They had "comparable" amounts of mp to their mage counterparts (when lined up against /mage jobs on normal DDs). What your asking for is that all jobs, basically, be turned into /mage. Maybe you enjoy the idea of playing a game where every player is a carbon copy of you w/ just different favorites, but to me...that's about the most awful experience imaginable.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.]

Look at THF w/ Blood Bolts via crossbow. Do you know how much fun it was to do dmg, and cure myself, at the same time? Do you know how much fun it would have been to have to spam myself in cures w/ gimp mp? [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.]

So, does this mean that I want every DD to have Blood Bolts and a crossbow? NO...SO DON'T ASSUME THAT'S WHAT THAT STATEMENT MEANS -[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.]

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THM or CON can no longer tank the hardest content in the game efficiently due to the MP changes and a few nerfs to key abilities. GLA can not be a tank and deal the highest DPS, or be a main healer. DD classes can spec to either DD effectively, or tank, but not both simultaneously....and they can never be main healers. But all classes can use other abilities to cater to specific party needs thereby making the group dynamic stronger. This sounds like its working as intended.

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I don't really care about "group effectiveness," and neither do a bunch of other players. Once again, you're only considering your own feelings every time you post. Many ppl want to be able to solo, and they may not want to have to lvl every single job, just to do it effectively. Your system REQUIRES them to do so. Let me TRY to explain why [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.]. SE knows that everyone is able to draw on the abilities of other jobs/classes, SO NO SINGLE job or class (in and of itself; no "cross-class" melding going on) will EVER be allowed to perform at the SAME "level" as a class/job that capitalizes on the current system. Why? Because, if said job ever decided to capitalize on the "flexibility" of the class system, it would be GROSSLY overpowered. What does this mean for the "casual" player (which I am not)? It means you will either find a way to level numerous jobs in your spare time, or be gimp -PLAIN and SIMPLE.[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.]

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You said you want every class to have the same capabilities, like being able to heal in their own way, but the Job system you're arguing for all but guarantees this *WON'T* happen.


It never ceases to amaze me how some people will argue against a system that actually gives them what they want while advocating a system that's largely an unknown commodity that will most likely dash any hopes of what they're lobbying for. The Armoury System already gives you what you want, in the time you've spent arguing against it you could've easily leveled 2-3 classes to 20 and started enjoying/enriching your character.

Maybe it'll get you to think outside your "little box" and expand your horizons by coaxing you into trying some classes and abilities you might have felt were out of your comfort zone....

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When I said, capabilities, I meant "solo'n w/o curing" (if they're a normal melee). I thought I made that clear by saying "I don't know exactly what I want," and then throwing out a couple of *** ideas. I guess that led you to misinterpret what I actually meant.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.]

/sigh so many pointless things.

First off just because you change the name doesn't change what the job does. after all its just words, An Archer/Ranger? same thing. Pug/Mnk? Hume/Hyur? same thing. if you seriously think changing the name will make any impact you're only kidding yourself.

XIs system compared to XIV is horrible. while XI you could change you sub it only change your play-style slightly.
Rng/war Rng/nin Rng/sam all were DD's. Subs just made you either more or less agressive and effective. In the end you were still just a DD. only very few jobs could solo effectively in XI without needing insane gear. brd or whm? you were not killing anything that mattered solo. XIV system allows you to do many things that you would not be able to in XI or any game that allows you only 1 job.

For an Example I'll use Archer and Ranger
for Ranger to use these abilities: Protect/Defender/Berserk/Cure/Chakra(Second wind)/Ustusumi/Meditate
I would need to use 5 Sub jobs which would be impossible.

For archer i could do so Easily and still have what I need to kill effectively.


Now with the whole "I'm to lazy to level up all the jobs, So I should be able to be equally effective without doing so crowd"
Suck it up. or leave simple as that. It doesn't take long or much effort to level jobs up to get the Tier 1 abilities. You don't need all jobs to 50 to have the good abilities. and once again you had to do the same thing in XI. The only difference? this game you can use all the jobs at once.


There is still very little info about the whole job system. so seriously stop asking for them to change things before we even know everything about it just because it wasn't like XI or some other game you played. After how do you know you will hate or like it unless you at least try it.

And about the solo stuff. this is a MMORPG. massive MULTIPLAYER online role-playing game. doing things in group is the whole point of the game if you don't care about that then you are playing the wrong game. most people play MMOs for the sole reason to guess what? play in groups with other people so of course Group effectiveness > Solo play. are you seriously that stupid that you think an online multiplayer game should be based on solo activities over group ones.