Tanking habits

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Attack whatever you want to attack, if they are not bad they will watch this and be able to hold all enmity. All tanks need is a little awareness.

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I'm a bad tank and I let dps eat the mob they pull.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

Tanks are now in the habit of not marking. This is probably the most irritating thing as a DPS to encounter imo.

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Just target what the tank is targeting (though it is annoying when they suddenly switch targets and it's not noticeable - like if things are stacked). If you're on PC, that just means selecting the tank, then selecting the monster the name is pointing to if not hitting 'T'. I'm sure the console version has something similar. I do it all the time on MNK and BRD (or in reverse when healing in a Fate/ST and can't cleanly determine who the boss/fate is aggro'd on).

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Originally Posted by Saseal

Just target what the tank is targeting .... I'm sure the console version has something similar.

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And that is my general practice look for what the tank is attacking than attack that when there are no markers

I know on the PS3/PS4 you can hold R2 than press L1 or R1 to cycle in which direction you want

For every tank you get that pulls more than he/you can handle there's an impatient healer I end up with that is all like "pull larger groups" and starts pulling with aero after I silently continue pulling what I am comfortable with.

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Originally Posted by Doki

For every tank you get that pulls more than he/you can handle there's an impatient healer I end up with that is all like "pull larger groups" and starts pulling with aero after I silently continue pulling what I am comfortable with.

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I have had this happen one time my FC friend was tanking and the healer kept bugging for bigger pulls eventually the healer rage quit

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Originally Posted by Mercuito

Also you seem to just be beyond understanding even yourself. like I said in one swoop you say the devs are trying to stop you in another you say the devs wanted you to play the way you want. it's sad really. Also in multiple mobs in a row unless mobs are useless it usually means pull carefully.

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You seem to be the one who is beyond understanding, in more ways than just your grasp of the English language. At no point did I literally say that the devs wanted me to play the way I wanted. I said that I wanted to play that way. I said that the devs were trying to stop the player from playing as they wished with artificial blocking in a dungeon with the specific examples used being Snowcloak and Qarn HM. I'm guessing you still have no idea what that even means so I won't bother to explain it to you. Somehow, you refuse to acknowledge those parts of a dungeon when others in this thread have.

So what's really sad here is that you appear to have no ability to comprehend anything that isn't, "Yes, you're right. Speed pulls are awful."

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Originally Posted by Mercuito

In any case I actually thought you had something crediable to say but it seems you like to grasp at straws so take care and please get off my thread

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Somehow the message of letting people play the dungeons however they want is both grasping at straws and a contradiction in and of itself. Okay. I'll make due acknowledging the others players in this thread who actually enjoy a varied play style in dungeons and basically doesn't just say that all dungeons should be done strictly his way. Yes, that's right. I think your huge thing is that you want the tomestone dungeons to be run by everyone in a way you deem fit. Everything one way. I guess because your only lvl 50 job is a tank you can't even understand that different jobs make you wanna play the dungeons different ways.

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Originally Posted by OlyverW

And that is my general practice look for what the tank is attacking than attack that when there are no markers

I know on the PS3/PS4 you can hold R2 than press L1 or R1 to cycle in which direction you want

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This worked well for me when I upgraded to PS4 and got new controller mapping options- I set R3 thumbstick to Assist Target, and I don't need to use it a ton, but it's great when you want to be sure to target the same one as your tank or a specific other party member. I only use very situationally since it often doesn't make sense to attack the same target as the tank of a specific DPS. Great for when you don't want to pull enmity on one target out of a ton (ST trash mobs) or doing new content or coordinating with more experienced players (like if a BRD pairs up with DRG on an add that's best dealt physical damage).

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Originally Posted by HakuroDK

As a tank myself, all of this tank hate kinda hurts. I do my honest best to make sure the party goes at a suitable pace, but everyone's idea of a suitable pace is different. Some folks prefer to go at a slower pace and others prefer to go much faster. I have been yelled at by DPS and healers alike for NOT mass-pulling. I have been yelled at by a holy-spamming WHM for not having good survivability. I've been yelled at by enough people for trying to adopt to a playstyle that is not theirs that I've had just about enough of the tank hate.

(rest is snipped)

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*Deeep breath for long winded response that probably derailed somewhere in the middle of typing and editing (don't say I didn't warn)*

In a sense, I agree, as a healer - we have the same constant hate.

You're going to have to take all of it with a grain of salt, unfortunately (everyone's probably tired of hearing that, though). Tanks and Healers are in similar positions.
I feel similarly when someone complains about healers - even more when WHMs are singled out (such as the "Abomination known as WTFWHM" thread in the healer forum. ...because Scholars don't do anything weird...?). Both healers and tanks get similar guff from all angles (from DPS, co-tank/co-healer, tank/healer) because of the massive responsibilities both hold. Clump that with immature/impatient players and behold! Commence the finger pointing! *Blows hunters horn and unleashes the hounds*
So, technically, everyone is rude to everyone. :(

If you do as you say you do (I'm not doubting, just adding context), then I don't see any problems. I'd give you a commendation, easy.
I do similarly - say hello, stay friendly if the group is friendly, apologize if I derp (whming or dpsing), thank for raises, commend the person who stood out most of the group (or if I liked everyone with inability to decide, I kind of eenie-meenie and hope all the commends didn't just go to the same one person for sake of fairness), thank for the party and wait till it seems everyone is ready to exit (rather than just speeding to the exit and leaving. Just feels rude when people do it).

I do the best to my ability and still get "we wiped because of shitty heals; the healers can't keep us alive; etc" and the like guff for what ever the situation is or was - while I may not be the best healer out there, I know for a fact that I do as much as possible at all times (....which I will admit always leads me to MP management issues, but we all have our pitfalls. Overzealous/overly focused supporting is mine). Prioritize heals/lifebars, keep tank/co-healer healed, stay out of AoEs, Raise ASAP and only if mp allows for it and can continued healing afterwards, don't grab aggro at the start of a pull, DPS on healing down time, 'needs of the many', there is a time to stop and run and a time to weather a hit to ensure a priority heal to someone, pop cooldowns when damage outweighs the heals, SoS for MP and enmity redux, run to the tank when you have shit munching on you, etcetcetc.

No matter what is done, it's never enough.
Tanking and healing is tough - from both skill use mechanics and from the player base. There are a lot of high expectations from both classes.

I don't give players any crap (I'll admit to thinking "wtf are you doing? x_X /fliptable" here and there) but unless the person is verbally rude first, I don't see the need to be mean to them. Maybe they didn't know a mechanic of a skill or didn't realize something (missing shield oath, etc) or hit the wrong button or just a situational issue /shrug. People are allowed to derp. Shit happens - adapt, learn something new from it and get over it, is my take. Sastasha HM's last room giant pull massacres taught me to pop Divine and/or Presence sooner than my usual habit when I realize my jaw is dropping (not secluded to just Sastasha HM. But this is kind of a weak example). Annoyed by the method of learning, but still learned from it.

There's no such thing as perfection, for any class/person, so the expectation for it is unwarranted. There are those that truly just do not give a damn and ignore all useful concepts and advice, but those are individuals - just as much as the great counterparts are. And just like everything else, the derpy fellas are the ones that stand out more.



Sorta off topic: There are "I derped" and "horror story" threads (yeah, I've added my own bad experiences, because venting is healthy, but...) - I think maybe there needs to be some "Share your 'Awesome party was awesome' stories" threads to counteract all the negatives - inject a bit of positivity for all the classes straight from the players mouths. Promote solidarity cross-class, and not just each class segregating to talk amongst themselves about the other classes.
Just a suggestion.

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Originally Posted by OlyverW

And that is my general practice look for what the tank is attacking than attack that when there are no markers

I know on the PS3/PS4 you can hold R2 than press L1 or R1 to cycle in which direction you want

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Honestly, I'd say it's probably better to look for what the other DPS is targeting, and attack that. If you're not using aoes, it's best to kill a target as fast as possible, and the best way to do that is to focus on the same target as the other DPS. Additionally, by focusing on the same target as the other DPS, you increase the chances that that monster will die before either DPS gets enough hate to overcome the tank's distributed enmity.

A tank, on the other hand, is going to be rapidly switching targets for pretty much the entire fight in order to spread their enmity-building single target attacks across as many mobs as possible. If you target what the tank targets, you will be switching targets the entire fight as well.

When burning down targets one at a time (rather than aoe on all the targets), it's more efficient and safer to target the same mob the other DPS does. (Also remain aware that the other DPS might apply DoTs to several mobs before settling on one - as ACN 50, I'm sure you do this yourself, but other classes with DoTs may do this as well!)

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Additionally, by focusing on the same target as the other DPS, you increase the chances that that monster will die before either DPS gets enough hate to overcome the tank's distributed enmity.

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You know, thats a good point I never thought about o_O I just always attacked what the tank is attacking for the same enmity reasoning - but I guess that would be killing two birds with one stone (tank holding aggro on their target and the dpses distributing enmity on the other)

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Originally Posted by Buff_Archer

This worked well for me when I upgraded to PS4 and got new controller mapping options- I set R3 thumbstick to Assist Target, and I don't need to use it a ton, but it's great when you want to be sure to target the same one as your tank or a specific other party member. I only use very situationally since it often doesn't make sense to attack the same target as the tank of a specific DPS. Great for when you don't want to pull enmity on one target out of a ton (ST trash mobs) or doing new content or coordinating with more experienced players (like if a BRD pairs up with DRG on an add that's best dealt physical damage).

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Honestly, I'd say it's probably better to look for what the other DPS is targeting, and attack that. If you're not using aoes, it's best to kill a target as fast as possible, and the best way to do that is to focus on the same target as the other DPS. Additionally, by focusing on the same target as the other DPS, you increase the chances that that monster will die before either DPS gets enough hate to overcome the tank's distributed enmity.

A tank, on the other hand, is going to be rapidly switching targets for pretty much the entire fight in order to spread their enmity-building single target attacks across as many mobs as possible. If you target what the tank targets, you will be switching targets the entire fight as well.

When burning down targets one at a time (rather than aoe on all the targets), it's more efficient and safer to target the same mob the other DPS does. (Also remain aware that the other DPS might apply DoTs to several mobs before settling on one - as ACN 50, I'm sure you do this yourself, but other classes with DoTs may do this as well!)

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What I do is my opening rotation (lay my dots and my aoe attack for groups) than attack what was being currently targeted while maintaining my dots.

Never thought of it that way my thinking was I didn’t want to steal aggro but attacking what other dps is attack makes sense for distributing the aggro. I will give that a shot next time I get on thnx for the advise

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

My AE rot on WAR is:

Gather, Use Bloodbath while gathering > Internal Release > Overpower > Infuriate > Overpower > Berserk > Steel Cyclone > Vengence > Overpower > Wrath Building > SC

It only gets better if you can go in Unchained or Infuriated for an extra SC.

My AE rot on PLD WITHOUT a WHM:

Gather, Use Flight or Flight while gathering > Flash > Rampart > Flash > CoS > Flash > SW > Flash > Shield Bash mob 1 > Shield Bash mob 2 > Shield Bash mob 3 > Flash > Sentinel > Flash > Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Flash > Circle of Scorn > Shield Bash mob 4 > Shield Bash mob 5 > SW > Shield Bash mob 6 > Flash > Flash

If you are a shitty tank you just spam OP or Flash. If you aren't, you do little things that make mass pulls safer or faster.

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So let me try to read this again..

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

Gather, Use Bloodbath while gathering but not attacking so lose out on potential lifesteal > Internal Release > Overpower without maim up > Infuriate > Overpower > Berserk > Steel Cyclone still using things without maim up > Vengence > Overpower > Wrath Building using things not-overpower which is the most efficient since hp restore from bloodbath+high damage to kill the pull faster > SC

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Did I read it right? Oh also unchained will always be better than steel cyclone.

Also FoF doesn't affect enmity from Flash, so if you pop it when you aren't hitting something, again, waste.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

A dungeon is designed to be played however I deem it to be played.

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at no point did you say this.....rightttttt. Anyway I will stop arguing with you seeing as you completely lack the ablitly to make sense. have a nice life

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Originally Posted by Mercuito

at no point did you say this.....rightttttt.

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Here, lemme make it simple:

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

At no point did I literally say that the devs wanted me to play the way I wanted.

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The text you quoted:

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

A dungeon is designed to be played however I deem it to be played.

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This means...
I should decide how I can play a dungeon that the devs created.

BUT

Devs create road blocks in Snowcloak and Qarn HM that are meant to take that choice away from skilled players and pass it off as involving content. This is them forcing me how to play. My abilities or gear don't get to come into the equation.

You lack the ability to read basic English. Saying that I don't make sense just shows that you 1. Don't read and 2. Can't comprehend what you are reading. So instead, you just say I don't make any sense. Alright. Bai.

While everyone is going on about tanks, you also have to remember not everyone is playing a main job on Heals or DPS either. I've had full ilv100-110 Healers that couldn't handle a six pull. I've also had Lv100 -110 DPS that just didn't put out the numbers to kill the mobs in a timely manner so we either killed mobs at the same pace it would have taken just to do two separate pulls or we wiped.

The biggest issue is "Communication" it seems like everyone is hell bent on saying "hi" for commendation purposes and nothing more after that. I've asked people what type of pulls could they handle in ENG and Auto-Translate and was met with NO response or some smart ass comment like "Just go" only to wipe 2 mins later.

As a Main Tank I've learned you can't just judge people by gear either so you have to try to speak to them if they don't respond do a small pull and see how they handle it. If you don't like the attitudes of the players you can always Leave or asked to be removed.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

rubbish

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It's not that I lack the ablitly to read basic English. you don't know how to command it. it's sad seeing you say I don't read when clearly I quoted you saying the thing you said you didn't say. But I do admire how you tried to turn it into meaning something else. Anyway you bore me :)

here's a little exercise in English for you please look at your 2 statements you quoted of yourself and please try and spot the contradiction. please for you own sake and education spot it.

It is faster and more efficient to use AoE attacks on more enemies. If you are properly geared for the content and know how to play your job, mass-pulling is the most logical thing to do.

If a tank pulls trash into a boss fight, they are using the lockout technique. You can stand inside the barrier while the mobs are outside and pull the boss. When the lockout barrier appears, the mobs deaggro and you can fight the boss without needing to kill the trash.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Did I read it right? Oh also unchained will always be better than steel cyclone.

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You will have to OP at least twice before putting up Maim, otherwise the DPS can't AOE. Ideally you use Unchained + Bloodbath when everything is gathered together -> OP -> Zerk -> OP -> IR -> HS + Maim -> OP spam until pacified, then more OP spam if everything isn't dead yet for some reason. Cyclone is fine to use your Wrath stacks for if Unchained isn't available but Infuriate is. But yeah, Buffs + Maim + OP spam is the way to go.

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Originally Posted by Kirana

It is faster and more efficient to use AoE attacks on more enemies. If you are properly geared for the content and know how to play your job, mass-pulling is the most logical thing to do.

If a tank pulls trash into a boss fight, they are using the lockout technique. You can stand inside the barrier while the mobs are outside and pull the boss. When the lockout barrier appears, the mobs deaggro and you can fight the boss without needing to kill the trash.

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I'm not sure that's true - or at least not in all cases. In a speed run I've been in, for Bray HM, a couerl (or rather, one of the large variants but I can't remember the specific name) was accidently dragged into the last boss fight - and pretty much stayed there until we killed it... even after the lockout :\

There are groups that yell at me when I don't mass pull as well. I don't think it's just the tanks to blame for this.

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Originally Posted by Saseal

snip

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A kindred spirit, wonderful!

There are a lot of people who are more keen to vent about all of the negative stuff they see than they are to talk about anything positive. And it's terrible! (as I do exactly that. x_x)

I do agree we need more positive threads about. Between the Cash Shop threads, criticism threads like this one, the "Women and Armor" thread, and a bunch of the other threads that get toxic really quick, we do absolutely need more positivity about.

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Originally Posted by Saseal

I'm not sure that's true - or at least not in all cases. In a speed run I've been in, for Bray HM, a couerl (or rather, one of the large variants but I can't remember the specific name) was accidently dragged into the last boss fight - and pretty much stayed there until we killed it... even after the lockout :\

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If a mob is inside the barrier (or partially inside) when the barrier goes up, it will stay in the fight and need to be dealt with.

Any mobs that are fully outside the barrier will get locked out, lose aggro, and wander home.