some of us are just BURNOUT!! man on doing the same old 3 dungeons for our solidery and do the daily routelle runs on auto-pilot lol simple as that
i do them on my sch cuz i can heal the whole thing without any effort
I don't understand...
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06-05-2014, 09:18 AMGgrab_Style
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06-05-2014, 11:16 AMDoubleI dare you or anyone post proof of themselves trying to help another player within a duty.Quote:
Originally Posted by ispano
This very same forum has sob stories of players coming here because they get treated like Sh*t from the very same people who says they "Tried to help" by offering advice such as, "Wut, you didn't watch video? omg you so lazy, you suck, stupid player, casual."
I can assure you, find one thread of a player asking "why the bad attitudes, I just asked a question", and you'll find a train of replies from "helpful" people saying, "You really should watch the video, your party don't have to tell you anything." "If they watched it, you should too." "You don't know that fight? Then you are the problem." "You don't know your rotation? You're lvl 50 LOL."
Don't worry, I'll wait. -
06-05-2014, 12:48 PMLuxxOnce you do Mythflox Soliderstop for months on end, no one gives a damn lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ggrab_Style
I do other dungeons to keep different flavour in the box. So damn tired of that place I tell ya. -
06-05-2014, 01:13 PMViridianaSure, I'll just dig into that pile of screenshots I keep around for just such an occasion. . . Oh, wait. I don't have one of those.Quote:
Originally Posted by Double
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06-05-2014, 01:27 PMDoubleThen what proof do you have other than word of mouth?Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridiana
There's literally threads, tons of them from people with screenshots of how badly they are treated by others who are making the same claims of many here in this one and no one seems to care as if it doesn't affect them or it's justified.
One thread, which I won't name in particular had a player who asked politely about a fight inside dungeon and got tore open a new one. You mean to tell me that's your definition of helping?
I won't even go as far as name calling, but the knee-jerk reaction from the community whenever someone is in need is exactly where the problem lies. Back in my days of FFXI, a person in need of help would gather as many helping hands as he/she possibly could and despite how many times someone helped with subjob items, people always made sure everyone had it and was on track of what needed to be done.
That sense of a strong community is practically nonexistent in this MMO. -
06-05-2014, 01:33 PMViridianaNo, that's clearly not my definition of helping. However, let's flip this around. How many people who need help and are helped politely do you think (as a percentage) go and make posts on the forums with picture evidence and everything? How many people make posts thanking tanks by name for not dropping from Lost City? How many people make threads thanking their DF group for being awesome and forgiving when they mess up in dungeons and trials?Quote:
Originally Posted by Double
The fact is that, by and large, only the negative gets coverage. That doesn't mean that the positive isn't happening. It just goes unreported. -
06-05-2014, 01:40 PMKerberonAn interesting article that goes along with this, about how we remember the negative more strongly than the positive. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/24/yo...anted=all&_r=0Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridiana
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06-05-2014, 01:40 PMDoubleSome positive does go reported but that isn't the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridiana
You're trying to tell me that the balance between the two are even when you and I both can't see that evidence to prove otherwise.
What evidence we do see and have right now is that; if you browse this forum, you will see threads from your community asking why so much hostility when asking for help?
Why can't people be willing without all the toxic and negativity? Is this how you treat others?
The sad part is that, even when the victim doesn't ask for help or advice, you still get the toxic from players telling them to get better anyway. -
06-05-2014, 02:01 PMispanoHere's the thing, we never said that DOESN'T happen. You make it sound like that's ALL that ever happens and it's completely false. How about this, do you have proof that it's almost always the way you say it is? Because I bet you don't keep record either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Double
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06-05-2014, 02:05 PMKuroyasha
Honestly, I stopped running low level roulette and high level roulette b/c of craziness. Hell even in exp roulette sometimes craziness happens; I was tanking Amdapor. Get to 2nd boss. Party keeps killing adds that give the debuff that attracts the boss to you. So i say "let me be the last to atk the add so i can kill" so I can get the boss to come to me. New smn tries to tell me that i just have to stand in front of the boss to get it to come down and keep hate and adds have nothing to do with the boss -_-. I was like omg lol.
Went stone vigil a couple days ago. had a tank who wasnt a warrior yet o_O. I ask "why arent you a warrior yet?" he replies he just found out about that today -_-. He did admit he was a noob but im thinking to myself like....if you just do story mode it tells you clear as day that you should unlock your job o_O. He of course gets wrecked by the 1st boss.
Thank SE that we can form parties for Exp and High roulette w/ 2.28 at least. -
06-05-2014, 02:31 PMDoubleIt happens more than often enough to strike a cord with a good number of people.Quote:
Originally Posted by ispano
I fully understand you will run into mean people. It's the way of life; not everyone is all sunny day and happy smiles however it's becoming more and more clear that an awful lot of people here either lack serious social skills or has a hard time dealing with others.
I'm not asking for people to just shut up and play the game because that was never my intention. I'm asking now is; why so much hate within your own community?
This thread basically tells me that the OP doesn't like the way he sees most players play because he doesn't believe Players playing a certain way within potential successful runs is acceptable.
That type of thinking is ridiculous and unrealistic and it's amazing how serious some are taking it, further proving the point of "Entitlement Era". -
06-05-2014, 02:40 PMKerberonThere is a sliding scale but it isn't. There is an eventual line where even if the group succeeded, a players gameplay may not have been acceptable because they played so poorly that they might as well have not been there. At this point they're not different than a player that is afk, and they are just being carried by people that did not sign up to carry others but to play as members of a team. You are on the exact opposite side of the argument as a rager that berates someone playing poorly, but both you and the rager are equally in the wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Double
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06-05-2014, 02:45 PMRegnumMagikSo is it unrealistic to expect people playing much more optimal by clicking different buttons with the same amount of work so terrible that I deserve to hang myself?Quote:
Originally Posted by Double
I'm just going to use my original post example.
Why use Fire I spam, then transpose and Blizzard I spam and repeat? Because it's their choice? Sure I guess you can say that.
But using Fire III, then Fire I spam, Blizzard III maybe scathe once for mana regen, repeat. Not only does this rotation does far more, it ALSO TAKES TWO MORE CLICK. TWO. SERIOUSLY. TWO. I'M NOT EVEN ASKING FOR THUNDER REFRESH.
Clearly my expectation is too high and I'm totally a 100% elitist and entitle to everything. Because clicking two extra buttons every rotation to shave 10 min off a run is guilty. Oh how terrible I am. -
06-05-2014, 02:56 PMDoubleThat does hold truth but OP's claim isn't that a player is afk or deliberately ruining runs, his claim is that he believes most people he run into isn't playing the way he wants them to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerberon
He never said these players are preventing clears, he never stated that players are afk. His claim is that players aren't playing the way he wants them to which is subjective and undefined.
The best remedy is to simply play with people you would rather play with but quite honestly, no one likes pressure and no one welcomes expectancy when it's not needed.
If you're running into people such as that, kindly offer advice. Most of the time, sane people will listen and take note for future reference. Unfortunately, most advice begins like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by RegnumMagik
"BLM wtf use thunder."
"MNK wtf do you even know your rotation?"
"DRG do you even combo?"
"Scrub whm casting regen before pulls."(This is after the party member that knows better lets them keep doing it while the whm probably is unaware that you pull hate from regen on pulls).
This is the norm, this is our community and it sickens me to see this type of behavior become acceptable among ourselves.
You can just forget asking about a fight.. -
06-05-2014, 03:02 PMViridianaAnecdotal evidence from the forums: this game is full of a-holes who harass people for small issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Double
Anecdotal evidence from the game: most groups say approximately three words, "hello" and "gj all."
I mean, alternately I could go with this:
Anecdotal evidence from the forums: there are a lot of people with no idea how to play their class, and they're hostile to the idea of learning.
Anecdotal evidence from the game: there are a lot of people with no idea how to play their class, and I can usually convince them to do better.
The problem with anecdotal evidence, though, is that it rarely counts for much. So, no, neither of us has better than anecdotal evidence regarding the actual frequency of a particular outcome.
Edit:
Having actually had similar scenarios. . .Quote:
Originally Posted by Double
"Hey, why aren't you casting fire at all?" Probably the most aggressive-sounding, at least in text. Not meant to be, but that's probably how it comes across.
"MNK does a lot more damage from the sides or behind than it does the front." MNK didn't say anything after, but I saw that he stopped standing in front of the mobs.
(I haven't bothered to correct a DRG recently)
"dat regen aggro :p" WHM basically responded with "Oh, is that why I keep getting aggro?" and we sorted it out.
But, no, I'm sure what you posted above is the norm. . . -
06-05-2014, 03:04 PMAlyssaFhey
People need to understand that not everyone is a hardcore player and there are roulettes. Stop expecting Static members to be in there only.
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06-05-2014, 03:26 PMabzoluutYou, like many others, missed the point completely. Btw, where does it say people expect "static members" in roulettes? Or must you use a hyperbool to strengthen your point because of its lack of strength?Quote:
Originally Posted by AlyssaFhey
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06-05-2014, 03:46 PMAlyssaFheyIf by missed the point, you mean disagree with you, then yes, I do disagree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by abzoluut
It was a hyperbole, but my point still stands. Don't expect everyone to know how to maximize dps. -
06-05-2014, 04:10 PMabzoluut
Why do you think people expect max dps? Is asking someone to try so and so forcing someone to max dps? So if I, as a tank, start my rotation without using any enmity ability (which is possible as a WAR) and a healer or dps asks me to begin with a rotation that generates threath, I can just blunlty ignore the guy? Or say I rather keep this rotation beause this is how I like it? Sure, it's possible, dps just needs to wait 10ish seconds to attack which isn't all that long right?
Suddenly this is different, because now it's a tank isn't it? If it's dps, who cares right? As long as you get through the dungeon. There is no point in trying stuff in an MMO. Everyone should just play how they want because if you ask someone to do fire I instead of fire III, you instantly brake their casual approach. (this is just an example, I don't play BLM so forgive me)
Now let's get real here please... -
06-05-2014, 04:47 PMGormogonYes. I see it happen even in "top player" play. Some have legit excuses others are just lazy or care too much about their preferred rotation to make adjustments to better suit the group. To some it's just 1 button to others it may be 3 to take into consideration.Quote:
Originally Posted by RegnumMagik
Yet if they don't do it and you're expecting them to do so and you're getting mad because they don't then it's your fault for not taking into consideration that they wont do it and optimizing around their form of play. You then become entitled and elitists when you start wanting to ban them because they didn't make your day.
They are obsessed with pointless numbers and they let those numbers dictated their attitude and mentality approach to other players.Quote:
Originally Posted by abzoluut
Which is why I hate parsers.
A bard using songs is more beneficial to the group than one not using songs just so he can try and keep his max dps numbers.
A Warrior who can keep Storm's Eye within his rotation, a Dragoon that can keep up Disembowel, and a Monk that can keep up Dragon Kick are beneficial to the group than one not doing so just to keep his max dps number.
Summoners and Black Mages who have the potential to help the group and mainly the tanks with Eye for an Eye, Apocatastasis, Lethargy, Virus, binds, and battle res.
Paladin's have cover, cure, and stoneskin while healers have ways to help mitigate damage as well as buff and contribute to dps.
It gets bad when those players intentionally hold back on those abilities just because they don't want to give another class a beneficial boost to their DPS so they can try and stay ahead with their numbers just to gloat. -
06-05-2014, 09:35 PMOdettYou're talking about pointless numbers, then list skills that increase DPS?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gormogon
A DRG does not achieve maximum DPS without Disembowel. Disembowel is great for BRDs in the group, but you as a DRG won't even achieve max DPS yourself unless you Disembowel, because all DRG attacks are piercing attacks (not to mention that you won't be able to use Chaos Thrust either).
DK with MNK isn't just for the party, the also won't achieve their best DPS if they don't apply it because every attack that they have, minus DoT ticks (those count as unaspected damage, Idk if the same applies to DRG) is a Blunt attack.
Most of the skills you listed for BLM/SMN are off the cooldown, so it won't affect their DPS. If they're not using these skills, it's not because it affects their DPS, but because they don't know any better.
PLD cover is an underused skill (and it won't ever be used when the tank doesn't use basic mitigation skills like Foresight and Rampart) I'll give you that one. PLD Cure, on the other hand, does EXTREMELY little healing, which can work on "off-phases" where you don't need to move, but 2 healers would top you off anyway when they're healing (or prehealing) the AoE damage that just happened, so it's a moot point (like a Titan jump). PLD SS like you said, is very useful.
Healers can contribute a whole lot to DPS, like you said, but not many of them do so.
I did not talk about BRDS because I do not have a lv 50 one, so I am not comfortable talking about them.
Here is where it gets frustrating. A DRG not using Disembowel and a MNK not using DK aren't abstaining from using said skills to boost their DPS because it actually lowers it (and greatly for DRG due to no CT either). You said in an earlier post not to give advice unless asked. Would you abstain from giving someone helpful advice that will not only boost the time of this run, but more importantly make these players better in the long run? If you're rudely spoken back to, or totally ignored, then that is frustrating. I've met a lot of players that say "why are you telling me this? No one is dying and we beat the dungeon." That's very true, but it could have gone a lot smoother if they had not spammed their Full Thrust combo (which WILL likely result in death from lack of DPS when they move on to harder Full Party fights), not to mention that it's a carry. You will also be met with even more rude remarks if you suggest to a healer that they can cleric dance and help with DPS if they want if the tank can effectively use defensive cooldowns. -
06-05-2014, 10:10 PMGormogonI'm referring to individuals not using abilities that better suit the group to simply satisfy their numbers and trying to force results in their favor. Bards on average are the biggest offenders because they don't want to suffer that damage penalty from certain songs. Yet other jobs aren't exempt from that sort of behavior.Quote:
Originally Posted by Odett
A player that wants to better himself will make it known to the group that he does want to improve. So you're free to "judge" and "criticize" his rotation so he gets better as long as it is done in a sincere manner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Odett
A player that didn't ask for advice doesn't have to deal with your lecture. While you know the benefits of using a rotation or certain abilities in certain situations the individual in question did not ask for your 2 cents.
It's not gonna help them in the long run, in fact you are only doing a disservice to yourself and others by forcing those individuals to be stubborn about accepting advice.
When you're faced with those players your options are limited but simple.
1.) Carry them, regardless of your personal feelings regarding the issue. Stirring up drama over 1 player that everyone else in the group will have to deal with causes a more negative atmosphere than it ever will a positive one.
2.) Stall until he leaves. Eventually all those wipes are gonna get to the individual in question and will leave on his own.
3.) Start forming your own secluded parties that wont include such players.
Yet if your approach is to constantly try and force feed individuals your own standards well power to you. -
06-05-2014, 10:29 PMTiggy
There is nothing wrong with kindly giving advice when you meet a fresh player in a dungeon. Nothing at all. You can justify it in as many ways as you want, but being a kind and caring human being and trying to help others in a kind way is not bad.
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06-06-2014, 12:33 AMFoo01There is nothing wrong. But want is "kindly giving advice" from your perspective is "angry orders or busy body nanny state" from another. So it is very subjective what counts as kindly advice and what is not offensive to others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiggy
But it should be obvious and self-evident that "being a kind and caring human being and trying to help others" would not demand other players to optimize their DPS and play like some robot doing everything a close to perfect as possible, and certainly would not get mad at them for 1 mistake and kick like the elitist do.
But rather "being a kind and caring human being and trying to help others" would mean it is ok to go slower, not speed run 100%, carry some of them sometimes when you can etc. And it would mean not be so demanding of them like the OP wishes. So what if their DPS is not on the high end, are you going make an issue of it and make everyone else feel bad?
As long as they are not trolls, I would give them the benefit of the doubt and if I can carry them I certainly don't mind. -
06-06-2014, 12:56 AMRegnumMagikSure, if this was some regular 1 - 50 story or any dungeon without a single dps check I wouldn't have cared. Though, this was Lost City of Ampdapor and he barely meet the DPS check.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gormogon
I'll give a tl:dr story to get my point across.
First, I was the other DPS. I was devoured for the first boss. He was using Fire I/Blizzard I spams and I was dead because there wasn't enough damage to free me. If I was never raised and the healer was never picked next, the run could easily be a cycle of wipes on the first boss.
The 2nd boss, tank was about to take a 5th stack before the boss was dead. Now, if I decide to not pull my weight as a DPS, and I don't know how far the healer can keep up before the tank will probably fall.
The last boss took 3 doors. This was the run I actually had to leave and come back as a tank because the original was gone. Luckily, we got a replacement DPS that actually pulls their weight so we didn't run out of doors.
Long story short, we did succeed the run. However, the run wouldn't of succeed if the OTHER THREE didn't pull their weight. Simple as that. If the whole group just press whatever buttons they wish then you will end with 90 minutes of fail. -
06-06-2014, 01:25 AMTiggyI mean like giving advice in a kind manner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foo01
"Hey <player name>, you can do it however you like and I don't intend to judge, but a lot of my <enter job here> friends tell me they get a lot of good results out of <insert combo or move here>. I figured I'd pass along the tip. I hope it helps."
You can advice people or give tips without sounding like a dbag, and I'm not a dbag if I said the above in a roulette. If that above is a problem then you're really just too picky to judge me in this thread or you need thicker skin. I'm not being mean, I'm not forcing my opinion, and I'm not getting angry. I'm just passing a tip. If passing someone a tip in a kind and non insulting manner is doing wrong then put me on santa's naughty list.
This attitude that any advice or tips is bad is just terrible. It's too extreme to be realistic. What should only be relevant is HOW we treat one another. Are we attacking that person? Are we sounding aggrivated which only breeds aggravated responses? If we simply treat each other kindly then we have nothing to worry about. It's not what we say, but how we say it that counts the most. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
People simply need to remember the Golden_Rule, and the Silver Rule when interacting with others and this entire thread would literally have no reason to exist. -
06-06-2014, 01:35 AMOPneedNerfs
Just follow this simple rule:
"You can't help someone who doesn't want to help themselves"
If someone doesn't ask for your help, leave him be.
Let him stay "bad" as you would call it.
Chances of you ever seeing that person again are close to 0.
I can't stress how much easier this is to do now that Blacklist also blocks players from joining your PFs.
Word spreads, and people who cause wipes with bad attitudes will end up on alot of black lists.
Sooner or later, they'll either end up with a character that can't do any content through the PF or start a new character.
So I do agree with those who say "It's their money, let them play how they want" because in the long run, the ones it affect the most are themselves. -
06-06-2014, 02:24 AMDoubleThis case holds more weight since the situation does place the run at jeopardy.Quote:
Originally Posted by RegnumMagik
Truth be told, I've yet to run into a BLM who only used fire I and Blizzard I. That type of mundane actions sounds much less of a player with intent to clear and more so the actions of a troll.
Curiosity within human psychology will make them explore their skill list as they leveled there way from 1 - 50; it's truly unheard of that a player would completely ignore every other spell they would have access to just for the sake of unwillingness to contend.
You have to be able to gauge these situations, your example falls more within acts of trolling or abuse rather than players who isn't interested with intention of completing the run.
There's a major difference between a person giving an honest attempt at clear and someone deliberately making the run as difficult as possible. -
06-06-2014, 02:32 AMKerberonHere's the problem. As your average player runs into more and more militantly casual players who refuse to accept advice or tactics they turn more and more to statics and refuse to pug. The casuals run out of people to pug with as they can't clear content and quit. New players come in and can't find groups because everyone is already in a static. Eventually you lose some of the people in the statics and there are no longer new players coming in to refresh their numbers. The playerbase stagnates. After a period of stagnation the population keeps dropping and accelerates. Companies put in cash shops and try to cash in on whales at that point in a last ditch effort to keep the game profitable. I've seen games die this way. Let them play as they want kills games just as effectively as you suck newb, both are wrong and kill mmo's.Quote:
Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs
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06-06-2014, 02:42 AMFoo01It alll smells like a troll you got. The tank got sick of the troll and left. Why did you feel that you need to come back be subjected to the troll? If I was the tank I would have ask the party if they think this guy was a troll especially if we were wiping multiple times because of the troll.Quote:
Originally Posted by RegnumMagik
BTW what sort communication did you have with the BLM? Without further information you cannot determine how to make the call on this. But please don't generalize 1 player's bad behavior or the select few bad encounters that stick out and to say the rest of the player base that they don't care about their performance.
Come again militant casuals? Seriously? Does this even make any sense? Casuals don't care enough to be militant, beligerent, or any these troll behaviors. Those are trolls. Don't blame casuals for grief trolls cause. Who knows how trolls operate, but it doesn't take a genius to guess that trolls will hide under the guise of noobs/smurfs and try to grief your game. Vote kick them and report them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerberon
I prefer not to talk about trolls because they are very rare (for comparison much rarer than the elitist speed runner that rage quits). In any case, this was a while back, but I had troll tank in Haukke manor normal on low level roulette. I was a healer, the tank ran off before even protect and got himself killed. I asked if he was new so we can have a game plan. So he started yelling about no heals and how he had a iLevel89 Bard, and then sat down at the bottom of the stairs demanding an apology. We vote kicked him and he joined back twice in progress and continued to demand apologies, eventually we just left. These militant types are never casual. The casuals don't have enough time to play as it is to waste their energies being militant. Needless to say, this one of the handful of trolls I ever had to report. I provided the GM all the chat transcripts and talked to them to help with their investigation.
This such bunch of BS. The elitist form their secret society of statics and exclude other players and keep people out, because that is what elitist want. And then they don't want be rubbing shoulders with the unwashed masses and leave the noobs to flounder on their own. Letting people play as they want was never the problem. Forcing people to play a certain way is what will drive the new players away. Trolls don't help, but to blame it on casual players this way is completely and utterly false. I wouldn't be surprised on bit if some bored elitist decided to troll thing like low level roulettes just to drive the new players away, because they only feel special if they up everyone else down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerberon
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06-06-2014, 04:17 AMKerberonWrong casual is a playstyle, militant is an attitude. edit* See the next post below as this quote gets twisted. Nothing is wrong with being casual, the problem is the combination of attitude and playstyle. Guess we've reached the point where the only thing left to try to argue with me about with this is to use politician's tricks to misquote and mislead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foo01
This is a perfect example of militantly casual. If you get offended by advice about your rotation as being angry orders or busy body nanny state, you are militantly casual.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foo01
Things need balance. Never giving polite advice when things are going badly is the opposite side of the guy that rages and swears at everyone when they make a mistake. It's out of balance and harmful. Let them play how they want no matter what is out of balance, and anything out of balance is harmful. -
06-06-2014, 04:31 AMFoo01Casual is playstyle is wrong? Says who?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerberon
Says the militant elitists attitudes. It is the elitist trying to force people to play their way their style that is the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerberon
Sure but the balance you are talking about is completely bogus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerberon
Both the term "polite advice" and "going badly" are vague and subjective. So much for the false equivalence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerberon
No one said never giving advice, no one is telling you to stfu and play. Wiping 15 times might be frustrating to a speed runner (where wiping once means rage quit for the elitist), but it is perfectly ok to casual players trying to figure it out. Not clearing content and running out of time on the first try is also perfectly fine. Uncalled for advice is not going to be well received, so called "polite" may not be so "polite" on the receiving end.
On the other hand being the elitist that rages at everyone else, that is absolutely uncalled for and absolutely not OK. It isn't about being militant (excluding trolls of course), it is about having a friendly environment for everyone to play the way they are comfortable with. -
06-06-2014, 04:37 AMManweSulimo
The best story I got is where I ended up in a stone vigil party with a tank that couldn't hold agro against even one of my fire IIs. The other dps and the healer tried to convince me that I should only be doing fire I cause it's more dps and I won't pull agro. So I said the tank needed to learn to hold agro and he said he wouldn't pull agro off me anymore so I died. And while I was walking back they banned together and votekicked me for not listening to them because they didn't believe me that fire II is better against mobs. Then I went to Haukke Manor and never pulled agro once using Fire IIs :P
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06-06-2014, 04:39 AMabzoluutThis is the second time you question the general assumption as to what is asking in a normal or kind manner. I think everyone knows how giving advice kindly sounds. Even the ones that boss people around do. There is no need to point out it's subjective. It's sad that Tiggy had to go through an example just to make sure you were on the same page.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foo01
The OP's title is "I don't understand". He is asking why. He does not understand why people would not try to use better rotations. It's the same "why" the other side of the story thinks: "why would you want to max dps, sit back and relax". The fact that his side made a thread about it, does not mean he's wrong and all the others are victims. They think the exact same way as some have pointed out here, let's not get things one sided here.
He clearly states he does not need to 100% speed run. He also asks questions why certain jobs do so and so. I have yet to see the part where he damands things. Is his tone kind? I guess not. Do I understand his frustration? Yes. -
06-06-2014, 04:50 AMFoo01The tank may have trouble with aggro so he wanted to attack single targets. The healer wants to keep things simple for the tank, so go slower don't AOE the group. They asked you nicely and you had to go get yourself vote kicked. Could the tank do better, maybe, but then again perhaps not at that time. It does not matter that another tank in Haukke can deal with it. It is all about learning to play together.Quote:
Originally Posted by ManweSulimo
There was this one time I was playing the PLD in toto-rak and I had this BLM that claimed that he can be a better tank, after I asked him not to grab aggro while I was still marking targets. He refused to listen. After three attempts to get thru to him, I made him be tank and I switched to healing using cure on my PLD on every one else but the BLM, and he was left with kite tanking. He wanted to be in such a hurry to blow thru stuff and wouldn't allow people to work together. Well now it took twice as long. It is not always about doing it as fast as possible.
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I also understand his frustration. I know I have lost it myself in team play on things like SC/BW and SC2 when the same guy (real life friend no less) still can not hold against a 6-pool and then refuses to train with me where I can get him reps so he know exactly what to do and do it fast, but even there that is really not justified. So this being a MMO where players are encourage to play and be themselves and not have to deal with some high intensity high stress environment, the demand to optimize is clearly not the norm that should promoted. But what I see here in this thread are pro-elitist stances who think everyone must optimize like them and doing any else is like a crime. That attitude makes it no fun for a vast majority of players who are playing earnest and for fun but don't want to take it to that extreme.Quote:
Originally Posted by abzoluut
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06-06-2014, 04:56 AMRegnumMagikI just asked why they don't consider instant stack swapping with Fire III/Blizzard III. I generally ask people their reason to see if they have their own reason. But they just straight up ignore me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foo01
I also didn't wanted to ruin the run because the healer was innocent, it would be terrible of me to just waste their time and not get sold of the week. -
06-06-2014, 05:12 AMTiggyGormogon did. Can't forget his contribution to this discussion where any advice of any form was too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foo01
So yeah. Some people here are being exactly that ridiculous.
It's a balance between saying nothing and saying too much that must be achieved. All while being nice and not insulting about it. -
06-06-2014, 05:38 AMFoo01The silent ones are the hardest to figure out. Sometimes I wonder if they are not bots. But luckily I have not had too many of those. But there was this one time where it was tam-tara and I got the silent treatment the entire dungeon, that was a really weird feeling. In any case, if I were the tank I would have elected to vote kick him after repeated wipes if the team will agree that he is troll or bot. It would have been the more fair and better for the healer, tank, and you, and it would have been better than the tank just giving up and leaving.Quote:
Originally Posted by RegnumMagik
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I don't think we should pick on Gormogon. Perhaps I missed it somewhere, but I don't think he told people to "stfu and play."Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiggy
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06-06-2014, 05:54 AMKingOfAbyssAmen to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foo01
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06-06-2014, 12:15 PMGormogonI never did but you can expect people like Tiggy, and others I have on ignore, to go to such extremes to try and make their point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foo01
I know people like making sob stories about how 1 run affected them. Yet all I see is a 1 run sob story. Which you may probably never be partnered with that person ever again through DF.
Back when people would do AK in greens since DL wasn't handed out like candy and players would die to Demon Wall's knockback. I went through many wipes and many unsuccessful clears. Eventually the few times I got passed Demon Wall was because tanks were decent enough and could adjust to a situation after the bee phase. Most of my early clears were based on me and a paladin who would alternate tanking, healing, and dpsing which was a slow but sure kill or it was a geared Warrior that could solo tank without the need of a healer past the bee phase on his own. After that I had to take care of the adds from the lass boss by myself and have the other DPS focus on dpsing and not getting hit by imminent catastrophe and getting the tanks to Anatoboga near the statue so they just tank and spank. It was harder to get tanks to tank Anatoboga than it was getting DPSers to not die to Imminent Catastrophe. For the most part because tanks knew it wasn't a simple fight due to mechanics they would ask for advice where to tank, in which I had to stand where they should and act as a visual marker, since there was no way marks then, and hope to move away before getting hit by Anatoboga's frontal cone abilities.
Case in point, I pulled my weight and then some. If we couldn't down it then I just accepted that we couldn't and it was better for them to get the experience and get used to the fight then trying to force constant change in strategem that wasn't gonna work if they didn't experience and became self aware of the mechanics. If players wanted advice I tried my best to explain the mechanics and what they should do or some others will. Yet for the most part it was never helpful when someone during those times would rage at people, especially when the person wasn't any better and then leave just leaving nothing but negativism through all that induced drama.
Same with Titan HM, I went around 3 months without getting the cleared because for the most part the groups I got through DF weren't gonna down it and it was hilarious seeing some groups fall apart simply because there was someone new or someone that didn't get past hearth phase. Once the FC I joined wanted to actively do primals it was on average 6 decent players carrying the other 2 while it was more work for the 6 players it was never a sob story.
Currently even now I handle Diabolos doors by myself in Lost City. If someone wants to try I let them. If we wipe then whatever the boss isn't going anywhere. If we down him then great there's 1 more person that can do it and that's a good thing. Yet I don't go making it a sob story because I have to do extra work and lose out on my DPS.
When I was farming my animus I didn't go and make new tanks life impossible when I got Satasha or Tam-Tara simply because they couldn't deal with the enmity dealt from Fire I crit. In fact I found use for css ruin, which I found to be hilarious, and made the new tanks job less stressful instead of being an elitist jerk and telling him he should try and force the notion of a rotation on him. I have no reason to start a players day with stress or end it with stress just to gratify my selfish needs for a piece of gear.