Honestly, let SE make as much money as they can.

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Originally Posted by Susanoh

I know of a free to play game that has a separate tab just for crafting storage that allows you to store 250 of every single crafting item in the game "in case you need it 6 months from now" that is available to everyone from day one with no purchases necessary, so this argument that FFXIV is somehow different from "FTP games" as an all encompassing statement is complete bull, for starters. Snip for space.

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I know the game you speak of and always felt the crafting storage system was a stroke of genius. The rest of the game not so much, but that kind of storage system especially for a F2P game was impressive. As I previously stated, FFXIV is the first P2P game I have played where additional storage is considered a service to be paid for and not acquired via in game currency. Not able to mail to alts is another thing I have never experienced in any other game. I guess I am still flabbergasted by these archaic concepts.

Off topic:

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make quality FF games

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They haven't been able to do that since the merger with Enix. After that, the games became more linear with each new one released.


BTW, anyone else dislike the voice acting in newer games making it so you can't rename the characters?

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Originally Posted by Susanoh

I know of a free to play game...(edit for space)

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GW2 has the same thing. We can store 99 items into one slot as well. Do you really need to store 250 of an item? OF COURSE NOT. Convenient? Yes. Game-Breaking? No. Big difference between the two, easy to understand right? Apparently not.

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Originally Posted by Susanoh

because the issue here isn't whether this game's pay wall restrictions are better than a FTP game's pay wall restrictions, but whether you agree with a subscription based game having pay wall restrictions to begin with.

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The only "wall restrictions" are the ones in your head because there is nothing restricting about the amount of storage space we already have. I'd understand and might possibly agree if our current storage is hindering and slowing down gameplay,but it is not. Like I said before, the ones complaining about simply want more convenience but don't want to pay, playing victim to something for free...to simplify...CHEAP.

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Originally Posted by Zwipe

, the ones complaining about simply want more convenience but don't want to pay, playing victim to something for free...to simplify...CHEAP.

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Dear god, convenience in a p2p game, the horror.

What next? Charging players extra to have an additional 200 blacklist space for convenience?

I can see it now

RMT spam doesn't effect your game play!
You can just delete the 50 top ones because they are most likely gone.
Why are you hoarding gil spammer names?!?!

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Originally Posted by Doo

Dear god, convenience in a p2p game, the horror.

What next? Charging players extra to have an additional 200 blacklist space for convenience?

I can see it now

RMT spam doesn't effect your game play!
You can just delete the 50 top ones because they are most likely gone.
Why are you hoarding gil spammer names?!?!

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"But a gil spammer might use the same name 6 months from now." lol

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Originally Posted by Zwipe

GW2 has the same thing. We can store 99 items into one slot as well. Do you really need to store 250 of an item? OF COURSE NOT. Convenient? Yes. Game-Breaking? No. Big difference between the two, easy to understand right? Apparently not.
The only "wall restrictions" are the ones in your head because there is nothing restricting about the amount of storage space we already have. I'd understand and might possibly agree if our current storage is hindering and slowing down gameplay,but it is not. Like I said before, the ones complaining about simply want more convenience but don't want to pay, playing victim to something for free...to simplify...CHEAP.

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No one said it was "game breaking," that's not a factor and never was. Implying that this is somehow "hard it understand" is embarrassing. You're not bringing any new information to the table. What you're saying is just completely irrelevant to the discussion.

It's not a "wall restriction," by the way, I said "pay wall restriction" but I'm guessing you aren't familiar with the term. It's a restriction placed on characters who decide not to pay extra money, which this clearly is. To say it's "in my head" is asinine. People who pay more money get effectively double inventory slots, double selling power on a single character, and whatever benefits may come with the new venture system. People who pay less money get half the inventory and selling power on a single character, and may or may not be at a disadvantage during ventures depending on how this works. No matter how you want to look at it, whether you're a "glass half full" or a "glass half empty" kind of guy, this is a restriction that can be lifted by throwing more cash at the developers.

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Originally Posted by Zwipe

The only "wall restrictions" are the ones in your head because there is nothing restricting about the amount of storage space we already have. I'd understand and might possibly agree if our current storage is hindering and slowing down gameplay,but it is not.

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The funny thing is you may not realize it, but that is exactly why SE are considering this now and not later. Generally companies make predictions of how well a product will be going into the future and make modifications to increase its longevity while milking as much profit in the process. For ffxiv I'd say that it has a solid 1-2 years of 'guaranteed profit' so with that in mind, what's an easy way of garnering profits? Retainers. You are correct that the current storage is sufficient if you aren't cluttering it up with useless mats but what about after 1-2 years of content? Between new mats, recipes, seasonal outifts that cant be placed in the armoire and glamours you'll find yourself, in time, that the current storage is horribly limited. However by adding paid retainers at a time when space isn't a terrible problem, the community blacklash and loss in profit will be minimal but will only increase going into the future. So come the time that you genuinely need retainers the community at large will have gotten used to them as a paid service (I believe this is called conditioning in psychology). And you know what the really funny thing is? SE wont even have to defend or justify itself come that time since they'll have the old fallback "we can't offer free retainers as it wouldn't be fair to those who've paid for so long" and those very people will also defend their terrible investment by becoming SE's unpaid public defense force.

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Originally Posted by Starkiller

Give me a freaking brake!

SquareEnix develops the FFXIV ARR gaming product and service. We all consume this product and service. They may change the product and service as they see fit. We might have some influence over how they make changes to FFXIV, but we certainly do not controll what they are allowed to develop and/or not develop or offer as a service!

If SE wanted to, they could develop and release a patch that would turn the game as we know it upside down. That would more than likely be a bad business decision, so we will probably not see that happen. However, if something like that were to happen, it would and could be done by SE's will... not ours.

Ultimately when it comes down to it, here is our choice as gamers: Consume (play and subscribe) the game or choose not to.

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They're free to "change the game as they see fit" the same way they're free to suffer the consequences for braindead decisions. If they add "paid services" other than what that post you quoted said they'll be stepping out of P2P territory and into double dipping their customers territory. Every single mmo except for WoW that has attempted that has very quickly died or gone F2P because people go to P2P mmos specifically to avoid that corporate greed bs. If they can't learn from the fact that countless mmos have failed over the past 9-10 years for trying to double dip their customers or blindly copying WoW and avoid doing that then they deserve the inevitable failure of their game.

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Originally Posted by Manuka

The funny thing is you may not realize it, but that is exactly why SE are considering this now and not later....(edit)... SE wont even have to defend or justify itself come that time since they'll have the old fallback "we can't offer free retainers as it wouldn't be fair to those who've paid for so long" and those very people will also defend their terrible investment by becoming SE's unpaid public defense force.

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Interesting point you make there. If that time DOES come that space becomes an issue, whether it be 2 years or 2 months, You would just have to ask yourself the same question as you would now, "Do I really need to keep all of this?" If you do, fine...buy another retainer. If not, then get rid of some of the extra baggage. SE is not forcing you keep every single thing you accumulate.

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Originally Posted by Zwipe

"Do I really need to keep all of this?" If you do, fine...buy another retainer. If not, then get rid of some of the extra baggage. SE is not forcing you keep every single thing you accumulate.

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Awww yes, the decisions of a free to play game. Whether or not I need to buy more inventory.

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Originally Posted by Zwipe

Interesting point you make there. If that time DOES come that space becomes an issue, whether it be 2 years or 2 months, You would just have to ask yourself the same question as you would now, "Do I really need to keep all of this?" If you do, fine...buy another retainer. If not, then get rid of some of the extra baggage. SE is not forcing you keep every single thing you accumulate.

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Ah, but you're operating under the assumption that SE will make it easy for you to answer such a question as we move forward with such a service in place. An example, ever since I joined this game there has been one QoL subject that I've seen pop up consistently; crafting to have use end-game. I can sincerely see SE "caving-in" to community demand and making crafting more integral to end game progression either through max ilvl crafted gear or allowing materia attachments to raid gear, which will have the intended effect of jacking up the number of 'needed' inventory space. Or how about all those near useless potions? Well now they all have an actual purpose with respectable CD's and will be highly useful to clear some hard content. What about those ventures? I can see them creating 'venture-only' minions/ mats which will create a demand for additional retainers while putting others at a disadvantage for not having them. The only reason why it's so easy to decide what to keep and what not now is because 90% of the stuff you get in this game is vendor-trash, but I can guarantee you that they'll spend every man hour to change that if they see potential for free profit.

Of course all of this is conjecture but from my experience game companies (especially f2p/b2p mmos) will often fashion content that will 'nudge' you into wanting to buy some item/ service by constantly inconveniencing you with in-game design choices but never directly requiring you to buy it, instead giving you the illusion of choice when you finally cave-in. But the sheer fact that this is a p2p game and that they're already considering double-dipping this early in the games lifespan, it's a pretty bad precedent for what's to come. I can see a lotta good players hopping off Mr Bones' Wild Ride before we start seeing $30 glamour skins in the shop.

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Originally Posted by Manuka

(EDIT)
Wild Ride before we start seeing $30 glamour skins in the shop.

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Nice read. But really, can you blame SE for trying to make more money? They are a business after all, and thats what businesses do, maximize profit. By the same token, paying customers like you and me are naturally going to try get the most out of our money, because its in our nature as a paying customer. It's not nice too call people CHEAP because they are just trying the most out of their money, right? By the same token, it's not cool to call a company CROOKS because they are trying to maximize their profit. SE has already proven that they are willing to compromise with their customers (excellent by the way). Its only good business to pass the bone back to SE here and there as well.

The day customers stop implying SE as crooks for trying to maximize profit, is the day I stop implying customers are cheap for trying to get the most out of their money.

But really, when it comes down to it, people are just being cheap.

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But really, can you blame SE for trying to make more money?

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Yes i can. Specially with a game that had as crappy start as FFXIV. And as you said, they are in it for the money. Do you really think they will sell useless things? Or things that won't have any effect on ingame things like the market?

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The day customers stop implying SE as crooks for trying to maximize profit, is the day I stop implying customers are cheap for trying to get the most out of their money.

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I don't think most are against this because of the price. Pretty much just the principle of P2P not having cash shops. If people where cheap, then they would have gone for a F2P or B2P game.

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Originally Posted by Amberion

I don't think most are against this because of the price. Pretty much just the principle of P2P not having cash shops. If people where cheap, then they would have gone for a F2P or B2P game.

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I dont see retainer service as cash shop, but if we see it from your and other ppl point of view then fantasia is also cash shop. So if you say no to retainer then it will be a no to Fantasia too, they both share the same boat

@Razzle: got post cap yesterday so have to end the discusstion in weird way....sorry

edit: fantasia is a compare so dont jump the gun

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Originally Posted by Zwipe

Nice read. But really, can you blame SE for trying to make more money? They are a business after all, and thats what businesses do, maximize profit. By the same token, paying customers like you and me are naturally going to try get the most out of our money, because its in our nature as a paying customer. It's not nice too call people CHEAP because they are just trying the most out of their money, right? By the same token, it's not cool to call a company CROOKS because they are trying to maximize their profit. SE has already proven that they are willing to compromise with their customers (excellent by the way). Its only good business to pass the bone back to SE here and there as well.

The day customers stop implying SE as crooks for trying to maximize profit, is the day I stop implying customers are cheap for trying to get the most out of their money.

But really, when it comes down to it, people are just being cheap.

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The part of my post that you quoted was probably lost on most, but it was actually a jab at those three transmog helms that were released on the WoW cashshop last year that created a ****storm in the community (one of my buddies who plays WoW mentioned that his guild leader was outright booting anybody caught wearing them as protest) which is a testament to what cashshop shenanigans can do to a community.

As to the rest of your post, there's a difference between being cheap and being taken advantage of. If we were cheap we wouldn't be paying them 13-15 bucks a month for the mere privilege of playing the game of which most of that sub is pure profit for them. Also I don't know what compromises SE has made that you're referring to, but I can't agree that we should 'pass the bone back' when they're already sitting on a stockpile of them from our subscription alone. I say this because I don't think people are really aware of how little of their subscription goes back into the game. Back when mmo's first began operational costs were pretty steep since the technology was young, which required subscriptions to keep them from going bankrupt. However today the cost of bandwidth is something like 7cents per GB (mmo's consume around 200-400 MB monthly) while the cost of data centers is pretty damn cheap as well, relatively speaking (I don't know the cost specifically for ffxiv but NCSofts' is like 250k for all of their mmos from Guildwars 2 to B&S). Doing some mental math if we were to highball a figure that includes operational cost and developmental costs, so lets say a live design team of 150 for an average income of 80k/y (not including expansions since we pay box price) with a sub base of 500k (14 per month, since there's two sub plans) you're sub covers somin like $14.50 a year or about $1.20 a month. So a little more than 91% of your sub is profit for them. Keep in mind that's being extremely generous because if SE's latest adds are to be believed, the sub base is more than double that plus most design teams are much much smaller.

Of course that isn't to say it's undeserved profit, the cost of entertainment is subjective to the individual. However you would hope the community would value themselves and their money a little more to hold SE to some standard of ethics by not introducing additional profit streams at the cost of in-game convenience, ala f2p style. The relationship between customer and company should be a tug-o-war between quality and cost, but one thing these companies have learned is that the gaming community at large are complete saps, which is why on-disc/day 1 DLC, pay2win and other cashgrab schemes are so rampant in modern gaming.

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

I dont see retainer service as cash shop, but if we see it from your and other ppl point of view then fantasia is also cash shop. So if you say no to retainer then it will be a no to Fantasia too, they both share the same boat
edit: fantasia is a compare so dont jump the gun

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But those aren't really comparable though. Retainers you deal with on a frequent basis and are integral to the games' design. I haven't had a fantasia for months and even if I did it would just be sitting in my retainer wasting space.

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Originally Posted by Manuka

But those aren't really comparable though. Retainers you deal with on a frequent basis and are integral to the games' design. I haven't had a fantasia for months and even if I did it would just be sitting in my retainer wasting space.

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but it still micro transaction right ? I belive most of the post in here are against micro transaction since they are "payed customer in a p2p"

Actually P2P is a cheaper route, one would pay significantly more in a F2P due to impulse buying.
As of now they have not slowed down or hindered gameplay in an attempt to get us to buy something, so all of this is still just speculation. Even if all of the signs point to bait, it doesn't mean we have to bite. Knowing that additional storage is going to cost us, unnecessarily hoarding every item that you come across is trapping yourself in a corner so you have no choice to bite. Sad to say guys but its not 2003 any more...15 dollars doesn't go as far as it did 10 years ago, so they're going to try and get as much as then can, and I don't blame them. MMO's used to be playgrounds, but they've grown up into theme parks. Some good ones charge admission, some don't...but all exist with the intent to sell a good time at a premium.
Long story short: FFXIV charges for extra storage. If you don't want to pay for extra storage, then work with what you have. I'm out of tissues.

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Originally Posted by Manuka

But those aren't really comparable though. Retainers you deal with on a frequent basis and are integral to the games' design. I haven't had a fantasia for months and even if I did it would just be sitting in my retainer wasting space.

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As far as this thread goes and how cheap I think people are, you are the only one on the other side of my argument that is actually making sense...kudos to you.

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Originally Posted by Manuka

As to the rest of your post, there's a difference between being cheap and being taken advantage of. If we were cheap we wouldn't be paying them 13-15 bucks a month for the mere privilege of playing the game of which most of that sub is pure profit for them.

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I think most of it is just crazy fans that are willing to give away money to support a game they truly like. Like pretty much donating.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post1962506

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

but it still micro transaction right ? I belive most of the post in here are against micro transaction since they are "payed customer in a p2p"

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You're right.
I consider it a micro transaction and it shouldn't be payed for with anything other than gils.

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Originally Posted by KhalidTheGreat

You're right.
I consider it a micro transaction and it shouldn't be payed for with anything other than gils.

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so in other words, if ppl against retainer service, they should against server transfer and Fantasia as well since they are all micro transaction. That mean if SE remove them all together and then everyone happy ?

Player ask for server transfer is micro transaction, no issue
Player ask for Fantasia is micro transaction, no issue
Player ask for Retainer service is micro transaction : BIG DEAL (had ask for this back since 1.0)

I dont see the sense in this complain

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

so in other words, if ppl against retainer service, they should against server transfer and Fantasia as well since they are all micro transaction. That mean if SE remove them all together and then everyone happy ?

Player ask for server transfer is micro transaction, no issue
Player ask for Fantasia is micro transaction, no issue
Player ask for Retainer service is micro transaction : BIG DEAL (had ask for this back since 1.0)

I dont see the sense in this complain

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As I mentioned in a previous post, I consider server transfer a service and I don't mind them charging for them. Seeing that it's not an in-game item / privilege / advantage. Unlike fantasia.

But hey, that's just my opinion on this matter (i'm so tired of discussing this subject).

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Originally Posted by KhalidTheGreat

As I mentioned in a previous post, I consider server transfer a service and I don't mind them charging for them. Seeing that it's not an in-game item / privilege / advantage. Unlike fantasia.

But hey, that's just my opinion on this matter (i'm so tired of discussing this subject).

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But what you consider is personally preference, in the end of the date they are all about transfer data, edit data & get more data and in a form of micro transaction.

and yes I am out of this thread as well as it get no where since we accpet each other opinion but we just cant agree with each other and the retainer servervice and fantasia will be on mog station and they are all optional. Peace

*Plant a C4*

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

but it still micro transaction right ? I belive most of the post in here are against micro transaction since they are "payed customer in a p2p"

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The problem is a bit more fluid than that. The issue isn't so much microtransactions themselves but how someone perceives the value of their subscription. We all pay a monthly premium with the expectation that we have the same amount of power within the game with the only thing separating us is the amount of time and dedication we spend in progressing our character. It's for this reason nobody really complains about money transactions for things like server transfers, fantasia, name changes and to some extent vanity (this is a bit of a gray area and depends on the person). All those services are superficial and don't impact anything meaningful within the game itself. The problem is that additional retainers, along with the announced ventures, will give you a slight edge over your peers especially if you enjoy crafting or playing the market. This deteriorates the perceived value of subscriptions for some, which is the crux of the whole issue and I happen to wholeheartedly agree.

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Originally Posted by Zwipe

Actually P2P is a cheaper route, one would pay significantly more in a F2P due to impulse buying.

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That's definitely true. But what happens when you have a P2P game where you introduce the impulsive buying of a F2P? You get a dying game, just look to WoW. Granted they were smart to pull that out late into its lifespan when it had a very dedicated base that wouldn't leave, but all ya have to do is look to it's gradual bleeding of subs to know where it's headed. The thing is, I don't think the FFXIV base is strong or dedicated enough to withstand such changes if they move further down this path, it's just too young of a game. Like the thing that initially drew me (and I believe for others) was the low box price and the lack of a notable cashshop. If that changes I'll likely just leave cause while I enjoy the game, I don't like it enough to stay if I feel like my sub is pointless. Honestly I hope it doesn't come to that but SE are pretty damn notorious for making terrible business decisions that costs them a lotta money.

And thanks for the compliment :o

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Originally Posted by ReiszRie

If you had taken the entirety of my comment into thought, you'd have known it was merely a logical argument point out the logical fallacy that simply paying a monthly subscription means you are entitled to everything in the present and future for free.

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Umm yes your monthly fee does guarantee access to all present and future content. That's how P2P mmos have always worked. They don't make new content out of "charity" they do it out of necessity to keep people subscribed because anyone with half a brain knows people would quickly leave if they run out of things to do. In this economy and with P2P player's general hatred of F2P practices if they get greedy and try to double dip their customers they'll lose those subscribers very quickly and will be forced to shut down or dumb down to F2P. Just like every single mmo except for WoW that has tried that for the past 9+ years. If you think the base content of 2.0 without updates is worth $10-15 a month I'm sorry to say there's no nice way to put this but you're a freaking fool.

Also before you freak out and call me "cheap" I think name change, character recreation/race change (fantasia), yearly or bi-yearly expansion packs, and server transfer are fine because those services have always been part of P2P even before F2P screwed up the genre. Retainers are pushing it a bit but I'm fine with it as long as it doesn't give some sort of crazy advantage of exclusive stuff from the Venture system. Any sort of cash shop though whether it's vanity, xp/gil boosters, mounts, or pets will lose them more subscribers than those rip off shops could ever make them.

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Originally Posted by Ikeda

Umm yes your monthly fee does guarantee access to all present and future content. That's how P2P mmos have always worked. They don't make new content out of "charity" they do it out of necessity to keep people subscribed because anyone with half a brain knows people would quickly leave if they run out of things to do. In this economy and with P2P player's general hatred of F2P practices if they get greedy and try to double dip their customers they'll lose those subscribers very quickly and will be forced to shut down or dumb down to F2P. Just like every single mmo except for WoW that has tried that for the past 9+ years. If you think the base content of 2.0 without updates is worth $10-15 a month I'm sorry to say there's no nice way to put this but you're a freaking fool.

Also before you freak out and call me "cheap" I think name change, character recreation/race change (fantasia), yearly or bi-yearly expansion packs, and server transfer are fine because those services have always been part of P2P even before F2P screwed up the genre. Retainers are pushing it a bit but I'm fine with it as long as it doesn't give some sort of crazy advantage of exclusive stuff from the Venture system. Any sort of cash shop though whether it's vanity, xp/gil boosters, mounts, or pets will lose them more subscribers than those rip off shops could ever make them.

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

so in other words, if ppl against retainer service, they should against server transfer and Fantasia as well since they are all micro transaction. That mean if SE remove them all together and then everyone happy ?

Player ask for server transfer is micro transaction, no issue
Player ask for Fantasia is micro transaction, no issue
Player ask for Retainer service is micro transaction : BIG DEAL (had ask for this back since 1.0)

I dont see the sense in this complain

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@Ikeda

If you cannot be bothered to read through the past few pages of comments to have a background of the arguments raised, I honestly could not be bothered to tango with you as I really ain't interested in explaining to you the same arguments I have explained a couple of times in this discussion.

Monthly subscription does not entitle you to all future features, it was never ever promised or guaranteed, it is merely the assumption made by yourself of how it should have worked and it has absolutely no relation to reality.

You pay a monthly subscription for Cable TV but that still doesn't guarantee you to every new feature, channels and what nots created in the future. You pay a monthly subscription for internet but it still doesn't entitle you to future features and new technologies implemented why are MMOs different? why are MMOs judged so harshly then?

Monthly subscription in a MMO does not magically confer you supreme rights.

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Originally Posted by ReiszRie

@Ikeda

If you cannot be bothered to read through the past few pages of comments to have a background of the arguments raised, I honestly could not be bothered to tango with you as I really ain't interested in explaining to you the same arguments I have explained a couple of times in this discussion.

Monthly subscription does not entitle you to all future features, it was never ever promised or guaranteed, it is merely the assumption made by yourself of how it should have worked and it has absolutely no relation to reality.

You pay a monthly subscription for Cable TV but that still doesn't guarantee you to every new feature, channels and what nots created in the future. You pay a monthly subscription for internet but it still doesn't entitle you to future features and new technologies implemented why are MMOs different? why are MMOs judged so harshly then?

Monthly subscription in a MMO does not magically confer you supreme rights.

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It has always worked that way and will continue to do so because the majority of players won't stand for it otherwise and are more than willing to take their money elsewhere. You can scream otherwise until you turn blue and it won't change that fact. The only reason WoW gets away with it is the sheer amount of subscribers it has and it's been bleeding hundreds of thousands to 1 million+ players each year for the past few years. Every single other mmo that has attempted the same thing has either shut down or gone F2P because they don't have enough subscribers to withstand the massive loss of subscribers that P2P cash shops ALWAYS cause and remain profitable. If you think FFXIV could survive losing a few hundred thousand subscribers due to a stupid decision like that when it currently only has about 500k-1 mill subscribers on top of what little faith people already have in SE as a company you're freaking delusional. All it will take is one little screw up and this game will go under. It's had 2 chances and will more than likely never get a 3rd. As for your cable and internet examples different businesses work differently. Get over it.

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Originally Posted by Ikeda

It has always worked that way and will continue to do so because the majority of players won't stand for it otherwise and are more than willing to take their money elsewhere. You can scream otherwise until you turn blue and it won't change that fact. The only reason WoW gets away with it is the sheer amount of subscribers it has and it's been bleeding hundreds of thousands to 1 million+ players each year for the past few years. Every single other mmo that has attempted the same thing has either shut down or gone F2P because they don't have enough subscribers to withstand the massive loss of subscribers that P2P cash shops ALWAYS cause and remain profitable. If you think FFXIV could survive losing a few hundred thousand subscribers due to a stupid decision like that when it currently only has about 500k-1 mill subscribers on top of what little faith people already have in SE as a company you're freaking delusional. All it will take is one little screw up and this game will go under. It's had 2 chances and will more than likely never get a 3rd. As for your cable and internet examples different businesses work differently. Get over it.

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slippery slope fallacy.

it all lies in the implementation, cash shop in and of itself isn't necessarily a bad thing

there are no statistics, you have no statistic to back up your claims of a few hundred players leaving solely because SE offered retainers for sale, without solid statistics, I can similarly say a million players stayed because SE offered retainers for sale. Hyperbole only goes so far.

you are simply assuming that offering retainers for sale results in a "slippery slope" and you are simply assuming that all players who left WoW are due solely to Blizzard offering cash shop which obviously you couldn't prove even if your life depended on it.

Your simplistic understanding of MMOs are telling, I don't dare imply that I understand the inner workings of MMOs and game studios but I can see that you enjoy making sweeping generalizations of how MMOs work and their reasons for failing as though you are deeply involved in the higher management and is privy to their decision making process in all of the MMOs in recent history. If you can prove that, I'd take my words back.

cable and internet are similar to MMO P2P in principle, we weren't even talking about their difference business models to begin with so there is little merit in bringing that in.

the only thing here is people's misguided expectations for everything under the Eorzean sun to be given to them just because they subscribed.

lets have this discussion again when you actually have anything new or constructive to add.

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Originally Posted by ReiszRie

slippery slope fallacy.

it all lies in the implementation, cash shop in and of itself isn't necessarily a bad thing

there are no statistics, you have no statistic to back up your claims of a few hundred players leaving solely because SE offered retainers for sale, without solid statistics, I can similar say a million players stayed because SE offered retainers for sale

you are simply assuming that offering retainers for sale results in a "slippery slope"

cable and internet are similar to MMO P2P in principle, we weren't even talking about business models to begin with so there is little merit in bringing that in.

the only thing here is people's misguided expectations for everything under the Eorzean sun to be given to them just because they subscribed.

lets have this discussion again when you actually have anything new or constructive to add.

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First of all I'm not even talking about retainers. If you paid attention to the post you just quoted before the last one you'd see I'm mostly fine with retainers and have no complaints about fantasia along with a few other things I mentioned because they were always part of the P2P model. I'm saying anything more than that whether it's vanity, xp/gil boosters, mounts, or pet shops will cross into what P2P players see as double dipping and will destroy this game. If you need "statistics" look at what's happened to pretty much every new mmo to come out ever since WoW. Notice how basically every single one of them that started as P2P have either shut down or gone F2P? Notice what they all have in common? All of them failed either due to blindly copying WoW too much or trying to double dip their customers. ARR's already a little close to being too similar to WoW as it is. If they try to double dip their customers on top of that the game will die simple as that. SE can't afford to take that risk.

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Originally Posted by Ikeda

First of all I'm not even talking about retainers. If you paid attention to the post you just quoted before the last one you'd see I'm mostly fine with retainers and have no complaints about fantasia along with a few other things I mentioned because they were always part of the P2P model. I'm saying anything more than that whether it's vanity, xp/gil boosters, mounts, or pet shops will cross into what P2P players see as double dipping and will destroy this game. If you need "statistics" look at what's happened to pretty much every new mmo to come out ever since WoW. Notice how basically every single one of them that started as P2P have either shut down or gone F2P? Notice what they all have in common? All of them failed either due to blindly copying WoW too much or trying to double dip their customers.

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I'm not even sure what you're talking about anymore.

You really can't say I'm OK with retainers but No to cash shop because Retainers and Phantasia honestly, are cash shop items.

If you are OK with Retainers and Phantasia then it supports my original point a couple of pages back that it all lies in its implementation and to dispell the fearmongering of cash shop = doom and gloom.

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Originally Posted by ReiszRie

I'm not even sure what you're talking about anymore.

You really can't say I'm OK with retainers but No to cash shop because Retainers and Phantasia honestly, are cash shop items.

If you are OK with Retainers and Phantasia then it supports my original point a couple of pages back that it all lies in its implementation and to dispell the fearmongering of cash shop = doom and gloom.

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I'm ok with retainers because as someone who played FFXI for years I'm used to having to pay extra for more storage (I don't plan on buying a retainer either way). I'm ok with Phantasia because it's literally just a paid character recreation/race change service that have been in P2P mmos since pretty much the beginning just with the difference of it being a in-game item you use to trigger it. All that other crap I'm not ok with were never part of mmos until F2P mmos came around and a few P2P companies got big headed and thought they could get away with that on top of charging a subscription. As I've said numerous times it has been proven over the past few years that the very large majority of P2P mmos that have attempted that have failed for it.

OP, you have to understand that if cash flow decline, it's very likely because people are not enjoying this game anymore and leave. The team working behind the game should work in such manner things don't go this way in the first place.

We pay them because we like what they are doing for us. This is how it should work. Not the other way around. We should not give them more money to keep them getting paid so they can keep the illusion of everything being ok while in reality it's not.

OK so what's the difference between paying extra for a Collectors Edition or paying a little extra each month for an additional Retainer? They are both optional "upgrades" to your FFXIV experience. The exclusive CE items do not make or break the game; they are nice little perks to have, but totally optional.

When purchasing a CE of the game you pay quite a bit extra up front for those optional perks. If you choose to add another Retainer to your account, you pay a little extra each month (for as long as you like). Again you don't have to have these extra retainers, they are totally optional and do not make or break the game.

So what's the difference here? I don't really see one and therefore it does not appear to be a big deal.

If retainers cost and extra $.01 cent a month, would people still fuss?

Of course they will, they are already paying $15.00. Why should they pay $15.01? They are being taken advantage of. They can get more storage space in another game for $14.99.

Nope, they are not cheap. They are smart. ;p

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Originally Posted by Jinko

SE have been making half assed games since ... well FFX, excluding ARR

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FFXII was not half assed, nor was XI. Ill give you Xiii-whatever.

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Originally Posted by Zwipe

If retainers cost and extra $.01 cent a month, would people still fuss?

Of course they will, they are already paying $15.00. Why should they pay $15.01? They are being taken advantage of. They can get more storage space in another game for $14.99.

Nope, they are not cheap. They are smart. ;p

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no, they are being miserly (if its only .01 were talking about here).

Honestly, what do you people hold onto that you have a full inventory, armoire, and 2 retainers?

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

I dont see retainer service as cash shop, but if we see it from your and other ppl point of view then fantasia is also cash shop. So if you say no to retainer then it will be a no to Fantasia too, they both share the same boat

@Razzle: got post cap yesterday so have to end the discusstion in weird way....sorry

edit: fantasia is a compare so dont jump the gun

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Yes, I'm against that potion. Also against name changing. Some decisions should be permanent in the game.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

no, they are being miserly (if its only .01 were talking about here).

Honestly, what do you people hold onto that you have a full inventory, armoire, and 2 retainers?

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That's what i've been trying to say. If retainers only cost $.01 a month no one would flinch, which proves they WOULD buy it from a cash shop.

But because cost $2.00 a month, They're rallying up with picket signs.

So if you are willing to pay it for an extra retainer $.01 cent a month, but not for $2.00 a month...it shows they're being cheap.

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Originally Posted by Zwipe

If retainers cost and extra $.01 cent a month, would people still fuss?

Of course they will, they are already paying $15.00. Why should they pay $15.01? They are being taken advantage of. They can get more storage space in another game for $14.99.

Nope, they are not cheap. They are smart. ;p

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That would make even more obvious that either they don't know how to manage their cash flow, or they're simply trying to take advantage of their subscriber base asking them to pay for something that can be paid with the profits that they get from the subs (and that they lie when they say that they want happy players/customers). Not to mention that doing it the right way (that's it, not making us pay a sub on top of a sub when it shouldn't be needed) would benefit everyone, so I don't really understand why some people are so stubborn defending them. It's not that hard to grasp, really, and we've said a thousand times already that the issue is with why (the whole context), not how much (2$ is nothing).

If you really want to gift them some money then, by all means, go and buy 50 copies of the game and leave everyone else to play a proper P2P game without cash shop crap.

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Originally Posted by Zwipe

That's what i've been trying to say. If retainers only cost $.01 a month no one would flinch, which proves they WOULD buy it from a cash shop.

But because cost $2.00 a month, They're rallying up with picket signs.

So if you are willing to pay it for an extra retainer $.01 cent a month, but not for $2.00 a month...it shows they're being cheap.

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I don't really care about whether there's retainers or not but I've got to ask. Who's more cheap? The people that want a P2P game to stick to a proper P2P business model? Or the people who want "SE to make as much money as they can" but refuse to give SE donations they could easily give them without getting something in return?