Battle Reform: Auto-Attack (06/30/2011)

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Originally Posted by Capita

Now I'm wondering if people even know what Auto Attack is. It's not a WS, so it's not supposed to do more damage than your WS. It's not a spell, so it's not supposed to do more damage than your spells. It's a BASIC ATTACK. No bonus damage, no cost.

We're not talking about spamming our WS, we're talking about spamming our basic ranged attack while everyone else is allowed to just focus on their WS since their basic attacks will become automated.

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this is why people said, this is a different game.
In this game, archers ranged attacks with buffs do more damage than peoples Weaponskills. they also give more tp.

basic attacks for many jobs arent that basic here.

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Originally Posted by Capita

You're still missing the point.

Every class will ultimately revolve around their WS and their timing. That doesn't change with or without AA. I don't see why you think AA has such an impact on the usage and timing of WS. It doesn't. And it obviously has nothing to do with going into melee range as an ARC.

The entire argument is about our only AA being a melee attack and the lack of a ranged AA, which will be a huge detriment if AA's DPS is important enough for endgame raids and bosses because that means ARC gets shafted. Skillful use and timing of WS is still important even with AA. I don't understand how you could think otherwise.

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AA is a substitute for spamming 1.

AA implementation affects melees a lot because spamming 1 is a large part of their gameplay now.

AA implementation does not affect Archers as much because spamming 1 is not a large part of their gameplay now.

Archer's are just hating because they cant be lazy like other melee classes. :P

That's really all it comes down to.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

AA is a substitute for spamming 1.

AA implementation affects melees a lot because spamming 1 is a large part of their gameplay now.

AA implementation does not affect Archers as much because spamming 1 is not a large part of their gameplay now.

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Which is also why I said we should wait out to see what the actual battle mechanics will be like in 1.18. For all we know, AA DPS could either be significant or negligible. It could be a mere substitute for melee to spam 1111111, or we could find that the lack of it wrecks the ranged/nuke classes in additional DPS output. Like I said earlier, all I'm doing is voicing my concern for what -could- make or break the ARC as a class in terms of endgame DPS output.

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Originally Posted by Capita

Which is also why I said we should wait out to see what the actual battle mechanics will be like in 1.18. For all we know, AA DPS could either be significant or negligible. It could be a mere substitute for melee to spam 1111111, or we could find that the lack of it wrecks the ranged/nuke classes in additional DPS output. Like I said earlier, all I'm doing is voicing my concern for what -could- make or break the ARC as a class in terms of endgame DPS output.

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Based on the video of what we've seen so far, as well as the text posted, I have a fair level of confidence that it won't be the scenario that you fear.

But you're right that we still don't have a lot of info to do hardcore theorycrafting just yet.

Other than my lack of understanding on why ARCs can't get a ranged auto-attack, it all sounds pretty decent so far. However, that space between 1.18 and 1.19 is gonna be reaaaaaally messy. I might just stick to crafting still. XD

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Originally Posted by Capita

Which is also why I said we should wait out to see what the actual battle mechanics will be like in 1.18.

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You should take your own advice and wait it out til 1.18. You're the one that's been arguing the most about this.

Question I would like to have answered, will DoM need to bring up strength since their auto-attack isn't magic-like like the current primary attack? God I hope not..

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Originally Posted by Taokii

Question I would like to have answered, will DoM need to bring up strength since their auto-attack isn't magic-like like the current primary attack? God I hope not..

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At least you don't have to worry about skilling-up your Staff or Wand Skills. >.>

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Originally Posted by Ashthra

Other than my lack of understanding on why ARCs can't get a ranged auto-attack,

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Because archers need to pick and choose when they attack a lot more carefully than other classes.

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Originally Posted by Nuru

You should take your own advice and wait it out til 1.18. You're the one that's been arguing the most about this.

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I thought that was the point of discussion forums? Not like I'm mindlessly QQing. Pretty sure I make some pretty valid points, regardless of whether the system is out or not. Plus it's a great way to pass the time at work.

The abilities Light Shot (Archer), Spirit Dart (Thaumaturge), Phantom Dart (Conjurer), Throw, and Stone Throw will remain available, although their usage will be regulated by a recast timer.


cool story bro

no doubt why mages alway messed up, they don't even care about mages

try to reform battle but not going to change AMs which need fix too

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Originally Posted by Capita

I thought that was the point of discussion forums? Not like I'm mindlessly QQing. Pretty sure I make some pretty valid points, regardless of whether the system is out or not. Plus it's a great way to pass the time at work.

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If that's the case, then i'm having a hard time understanding why you are trying to give someone else that same advice. Yes, its what the forums are for, and I've noticed that even without dev responses, they seem to acknowledge almost all of our discussions.

I don't mean to come off as some kind of jerk or anything, but I really don't get along well with hypocrisy. We all have to wait for 1.18 no matter what, so its not really too big of deal to me.

The dev team have also stated that they'd make adjustments according to player feedback on AA after 1.18, so the fix to Archers (if it turns out to be a problem in 1.18) will most likely be addressed after the patch.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

The abilities Light Shot (Archer), Spirit Dart (Thaumaturge), Phantom Dart (Conjurer), Throw, and Stone Throw will remain available, although their usage will be regulated by a recast timer.


cool story bro

no doubt why mages alway messed up, they don't even care about mages

try to reform battle but not going to change AMs which need fix too

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AM's problem is in the formula and animation -- it isn't regulated by the actual battle system. Said changes will be when they change the stat calculations which comes later. At least understand what you're trying to accuse them of lol.

Ok. the archer that attacks with the bare fists is a really stupid idea. I mean, he's a long range fighter, what does he have to do? Slap enemies? Really, really stupid. Put light shot in auto attack.
That said, why they are so slow? Why every update have to be one or two week late every damn month?
2 months without updates and the algorithms still aren't fixed?
I'm really disappointed.

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Originally Posted by Nuru

If that's the case, then i'm having a hard time understanding why you are trying to give someone else that same advice. Yes, its what the forums are for, and I've noticed that even without dev responses, they seem to acknowledge almost all of our discussions.

I don't mean to come off as some kind of jerk or anything, but I really don't get along well with hypocrisy. We all have to wait for 1.18 no matter what, so its not really too big of deal to me.

The dev team have also stated that they'd make adjustments according to player feedback on AA after 1.18, so the fix to Archers (if it turns out to be a problem in 1.18) will most likely be addressed after the patch.

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The entire argument is based on assumptions from both sides as to what the new system will be like. That's the point of the debate. There are no actual cold, hard facts to go off so both sides of the argument can only assume. We're well aware of this (at least I hope the others are). No one's trying to write off their view as what exactly will happen, so we speculate. If we waited until the actual patch day to discuss the changes, there would hardly be any activity on the forums. We should ultimately wait until the patch is released before we draw any conclusions, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss the possibilities. I don't see how I'm being a hypocrite here.

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On a serious note though how do you think recast timers will be handled for the unlocked Basic Attacks. So like a PUG with Light Strike / Flurry / Pummel? Surely they will all be on the same timer like Raging Strike 1 and 2 otherwise if they had their own 5 second timer you could essentially just keep spamming attacks very quickly.

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i remember not too long ago one of the developers noted that two certain tierd abilities share and will continue to share the same recast timer.....
sound familiar to anyone? i cant find it.
anyway, theres no way in hell SE would allow us spam any abilities, SE likes slower combat.

lol...

The amount of silly people I see in these forums is just amazing.

When I see such fail logic as:
Archer gets close range AA in the form of fists > now we have to use our fists to fight instead of our arrows
... nothing describes my reaction better than a facepalm of epic proportions.

Then what really amuses me is that most of the people complaining about Archer not having a ranged AA seem to be players that do not have Archer to rank 50.

Archer in FFXIV is quite different than in other MMOs, and especially different from other classes. A ranged AA would hurt Archer more than help it. If you do not understand why this is the case, then please rank Archer to 50, go on some NM runs and see how you can truly maximize your DPS and usefulness as an Archer. When you realize it has nothing to do with how many times you can hit Light Shot in a minute, you will feel silly.

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On a serious note though how do you think recast timers will be handled for the unlocked Basic Attacks. So like a PUG with Light Strike / Flurry / Pummel? Surely they will all be on the same timer like Raging Strike 1 and 2 otherwise if they had their own 5 second timer you could essentially just keep spamming attacks very quickly.

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flurry wont need to be linked, since doing anything but flurry will make you incapable of doing flurry again till your AA hits light strike and pummel will probably have thier own timers.
They may also use mp to regulate pugilists, because in the video light and pummel had mp costs.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

lol...

The amount of silly people I see in these forums is just amazing.

When I see such fail logic as:
Archer gets close range AA in the form of fists > now we have to use our fists to fight instead of our arrows
... nothing describes my reaction better than a facepalm of epic proportions.

Then what really amuses me is that most of the people complaining about Archer not having a ranged AA seem to be players that do not have Archer to rank 50.

Archer in FFXIV is quite different than in other MMOs, and especially different from other classes. A ranged AA would hurt Archer more than help it. If you do not understand why this is the case, then please rank Archer to 50, go on some NM runs and see how you can truly maximize your DPS and usefulness as an Archer. When you realize it has nothing to do with how many times you can hit Light Shot in a minute, you will feel silly.

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i agree with you

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

A ranged AA would hurt Archer more than help it. If you do not understand why this is the case, then please rank Archer to 50, go on some NM runs and see how you can truly maximize your DPS and usefulness as an Archer. When you realize it has nothing to do with how many times you can hit Light Shot in a minute, you will feel silly.

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Yep. Well said.

Nothing I've seen so far indicates that this aspect of archer gameplay is going to change for the worse.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

lol...

The amount of silly people I see in these forums is just amazing.

When I see such fail logic as:
Archer gets close range AA in the form of fists > now we have to use our fists to fight instead of our arrows
... nothing describes my reaction better than a facepalm of epic proportions.

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What's amusing is how you completely missed the point of the entire discussion. If AA turns out to be a significant source of DPS, then you have two options:

1. Get into melee range and maximize DPS while defeating the purpose of being ranged and endangering yourself/your party, making you a liability.
2. Stay at a safe range and do less DPS, making you a liability.

You ever min-max in endgame before? Things like these are important.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Then what really amuses me is that most of the people complaining about Archer not having a ranged AA seem to be players that do not have Archer to rank 50.

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Funny you mention this, regardless of the fact that some of the non-50 players you're bashing have extensive endgame and theorycrafting experience in multiple games.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Archer in FFXIV is quite different than in other MMOs, and especially different from other classes. A ranged AA would hurt Archer more than help it. If you do not understand why this is the case, then please rank Archer to 50, go on some NM runs and see how you can truly maximize your DPS and usefulness as an Archer. When you realize it has nothing to do with how many times you can hit Light Shot in a minute, you will feel silly.

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That may be, but the Archer archetype and the niche it fills is largely the same all around. The ARC in XIV is currently a hybrid of RNG in XI and Archer in Aion. Again, I don't see how you people somehow think a ranged AA would make ARC any less skillful, or make using and timing WS any less important. No one's saying to spam Light Shot, and no one said they currently spam Light Shot. Stop putting words in my mouth.

I still don't get the hate for Archer not having AA. Personally I wouldn't want it as an archer but maybe thats just me.

I'm willing to wait for the battle updates before crying of milk that has yet to be spilled.

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Originally Posted by Capita

Auto Attack is exactly what it is. It's a basic automatic attack that does basic damage. It's basically what Light Shot is. Abilities are attacks that have bonus damage and are limited in use by either cooldowns or energy consumption.

Melee classes get Auto Attack. It's a free attack that's separate from abilities. Archers get a melee Auto Attack but not a ranged one. At range, our basic attack has to be manually pressed and has a cooldown. Why should we have to spam our basic attack when other classes get theirs automated?

Even if it's not for more DPS, it just adds more unnecessary tedium to the Archer class.

Let's assume AA does basic damage and builds TP. Now let's assume LS does basic damage and builds TP. Both attack at the same rate (1-2 seconds). Now imagine your buddy with AA is chilling there waiting for his TP gauge to go up while we frantically mash our LS just to keep up with his TP gauge.

It's just extremely inconvenient. Can you honestly tell me why you think a ranged AA would be a bad idea?

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Hi Capita (and everyone upset at Archer's lack of Ranged AA),

I definitely see the "inconvenience factor" of having to press "1, 1, 1, 1, 1" for your own Light Shot at ranged distance, but there are few things to keep in mind:

1. Multishot / Trifurcate / Sleep / Shadowbind: There are situations and conditions right now in the game where these things exist. People have already mentioned Multishot and Trifurcate, and yes, it could be re-imagined as a Weaponskill instead of manually nocking Arrows, but it's not the case. This is the Final Fantasy team's choice.

Also, let's say you want to Shadowbind an Enemy (different play styles), if you have Auto-Attack, you just Bound an Enemy, but oops, your Auto Attack just fired off and you hit the Enemy, breaking the Bind.

Also with Slept Enemies, who knows what the "Cone" is like for Archers, but quickly turning away may not be fast enough and you may hit a Slept Enemy with Auto Attack (with the Archer's massive range) and woken it up.


2. Director Yoshida has said repeatedly that he wants each of the revised Class/Jobs to feel different, to have their own Class Uniqueness.

Right now, in FF XIV, all Melee classes can basically hit "1, 1, 1, 1, 1" (their basic attack), build up TP, unleash a WS, and repeat.

I'd say having one DoW Class in the future (after 1.18) that *doesn't* have Auto Attack (like every other Melee class) is a step towards "uniqueness."

None of us know what the New Archer is going to play like when their full Revised Battle System is in place.

Who's to say the New Archer isn't a Burst DPS Class?

Let's say for example, that after 1.18, they gain TP quite fast per Shot, but you manually shoot, and you choose your Shots with lots of different Buffs.

That'd feel totally different (and refreshing and welcome IMHO), vs. a Pugilist or Marauder that is building up via Auto Attack in close to the enemy.

They're revising and re-examining all Weaponskills, Traits, and Abilities. We don't know what the New Archer's full set is going to be, or how it's going to play.

I think it's best if we just wait and see what it's like with the full picture, before we criticize (or praise) the changes. :)

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Originally Posted by Kiara

Hi Capita (and everyone upset at Archer's lack of Ranged AA),

I definitely see the "inconvenience factor" of having to press "1, 1, 1, 1, 1" for your own Light Shot at ranged distance, but there are few things to keep in mind:

1. Multishot / Trifurcate / Sleep / Shadowbind: There are situations and conditions right now in the game where these things exist. People have already mentioned Multishot and Trifurcate, and yes, it could be re-imagined as a Weaponskill instead of manually nocking Arrows, but it's not the case. This is the Final Fantasy team's choice.

Also, let's say you want to Shadowbind an Enemy (different play styles), if you have Auto-Attack, you just Bound an Enemy, but oops, your Auto Attack just fired off and you hit the Enemy, breaking the Bind.

Also with Slept Enemies, who knows what the "Cone" is like for Archers, but quickly turning away may not be fast enough and you may hit a Slept Enemy with Auto Attack (with the Archer's massive range) and woken it up.

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Yes, I see these problems too. However, I'm assuming AA will be a toggle, so it wouldn't be difficult to macro AA /off before a CC. I've done it for years on WoW, so I don't see how it'll be any different with XIV's macros.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

2. Director Yoshida has said repeatedly that he wants each of the revised Class/Jobs to feel different, to have their own Class Uniqueness.

Right now, in FF XIV, all Melee classes can basically hit "1, 1, 1, 1, 1" (their basic attack), build up TP, unleash a WS, and repeat.

I'd say having one DoW Class in the future (after 1.18) that *doesn't* have Auto Attack (like every other Melee class) is a step towards "uniqueness."

None of us know what the New Archer is going to play like when their full Revised Battle System is in place.

Who's to say the New Archer isn't a Burst DPS Class?

Let's say for example, that after 1.18, they gain TP quite fast per Shot, but you manually shoot, and you choose your Shots with lots of different Buffs.

That'd feel totally different (and refreshing and welcome IMHO), vs. a Pugilist or Marauder that is building up via Auto Attack in close to the enemy.

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Great points, and ones I can agree with. Though you can't really fault me for being extremely wary of the unbalance these "differences between classes" might cause, all things considered.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

They're revising and re-examining all Weaponskills, Traits, and Abilities. We don't know what the New Archer's full set is going to be, or how it's going to play.

I think it's best if we just wait and see what it's like with the full picture, before we criticize (or praise) the changes. :)

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Exactly what I've been saying. Nothing of what I've been saying has been conclusive. It's feedback and speculation as to what -can- happen to the battle system. Some of the people replying just can't seem to grasp the fact that others might not share the same opinion or preference.

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Originally Posted by Capita

Again, I don't see how you people somehow think a ranged AA would make ARC any less skillful, or make using and timing WS any less important.

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Exactly what I've been telling you. Take my suggestions to heart, play this game enough to get Archer to 50 and then you'll see clearly.

If you played it briefly, did not like it, and then took months and months off and continue to not play it but rather post on the forums attempting to debate - while you wait for some game-changing patch - about something you do not yet fully understand then it's just silly.

I'm not saying the patch is gonna be great for Archer, nor am I saying, like you, that it will probably ruin it. I am saying that I do not know and there's a different between hypothesizing and crying about hypothetical scenarios.

AA is not a toggle. It auto engages when you are within a certain range of the enemy. This was stated earlier by the Devs.

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Originally Posted by Capita

If AA turns out to be a significant source of DPS, then you have two options:.

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"If"

What we're trying to say, is that there's more evidence that it will not turn out to be a significant source of DPS.

You are basing your hypothetical opinion on something that is probably not going to happen.

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Originally Posted by Capita

What's amusing is how you completely missed the point of the entire discussion. If AA turns out to be a significant source of DPS, then you have two options:

1. Get into melee range and maximize DPS while defeating the purpose of being ranged and endangering yourself/your party, making you a liability.
2. Stay at a safe range and do less DPS, making you a liability.

You ever min-max in endgame before? Things like these are important.

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Its been stated multiple times in this thread that you suffer a ranged accuracy loss at close range. Since I can come to my own conclusions since there is no info I am going to assume the Meele AA will do 10-20% of what a Light Shot will do.

Is missing 10% (Im not sure the exact amount of accuracy you lose for being in meele for archer) more worth it? Most likely not.

I am going to wager that you will do more at long range totally ignoring the meele AA just because of the accuracy loss.

Also the closer you get to 50 the more ARC seems to play like XI's BLM, just without cast timers. Huge burst hit after huge burst hit and very small amounts of smaller hits (Light Shots to fill in gaps waiting for RS2 to repop for example). Its already the most unique physical class, and I agree with SE's decision to not give it ranged AA.

Also in WoW the ranged AA was a very small DPS boost, our hunter in Uldah Hard Mode era was ranked #1 world DPS on WoWMeters for 4 hard modes, and top 10 for the rest. His AA was only 17-19% on most of the fights... I think you mentioned it was 60% in another post? That's almost like just sitting there AFK and letting your pet do the other 40% of the damage.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Exactly what I've been telling you. Take my suggestions to heart, play this game enough to get Archer to 50 and then you'll see clearly.

If you played it briefly, did not like it, and then took months and months off and continue to not play it but rather post on the forums attempting to debate - while you wait for some game-changing patch - about something you do not yet fully understand then it's just silly.

I'm not saying the patch is gonna be great for Archer, nor am I saying, like you, that it will probably ruin it. I am saying that I do not know and there's a different between hypothesizing and crying about hypothetical scenarios.

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See, this is the kind of response I've been waiting for (along with the one from Kiara).

Now, granted, I haven't played ARC to 50. I'm genuinely curious as to what's so different and unique about being maxed in this game compared to others. If it's not anything to do with skill sequences (lolrotations/lolpriority), crowd control (AMGAH DON'T BREAK SLEEP), using certain abilities for certain boss mechanics (a la Incapacitation), managing threat (what MMO doesn't have this), and generally not being a complete asshat (LEEEERRROOOYY), I'm all ears. Otherwise, I'd consider them to be general knowledge.

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Originally Posted by Zdenka

Also in WoW the ranged AA was a very small DPS boost, our hunter in Uldah Hard Mode era was ranked #1 world DPS on WoWMeters for 4 hard modes, and top 10 for the rest. His AA was only 17-19% on most of the fights... I think you mentioned it was 60% in another post? That's almost like just sitting there AFK and letting your pet do the other 40% of the damage.

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No one used WoWMeters. Everyone used World of Logs, because that's the only WoW DPS parser that any high-end endgame guild used at the time of ICC. Anyone who says Auto Shots weren't a big part of DPS just shows me that they aren't very good and doesn't know what WoW endgame is. So no offense, but I highly doubt your friend was #1 in the world in anything. Stutter stepping was developed SPECIFICALLY to make use of the high percentage of DPS that Auto Shots provided. 60% Auto Shots is normal for any good Hunter who knew how to stutter step, meaning he didn't miss any Auto Shots during movement. Only bad Hunters had less than 30% Auto Shots as Survival and less than 60% Auto Shots as Marksman (even on high mobility fights like Heroic Putricide), because it's obvious they don't know how to stutter step. Like I said, it's the difference between a good Hunter and a great one. Kripparrian (#1 Hunter in the world) even has a video of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgDjG_0ecTI

Think about the fact that Marksmanship Hunters only had Chimera Shot (10s cooldown), Aimed Shot (10s cooldown), Serpent Sting (refreshed upon Chimera Shot), and Steady Shot (1.5s cast time) for their DPS sequence and it's not hard to see Auto Shot made up most of their DPS (Auto Shot went off even while casting Steady Shot). Due to the nature of Armor Penetration and Chimera Shot being Nature damage -- Auto Shot damage, being physical, got much better with better gear. This means that while Chimera Shot, your main nuke, did 14k plus 3k damage (3k burst from Serpent Sting being on the target, totalling 17k), it remained at 17k total damage every 10 seconds. That's 1700 DPS. Now Auto Shots, being physical and effected by Armor Penetration, could hit up to 15k damage max. Now imagine that Auto Shots went off every 2.8 seconds (with the endgame bow), and that's about 5357 DPS. Pretty huge, right? Now add haste. About 2 minutes worth of 1.8 attack speed. That's 8333 DPS every 2 minutes within a 5 minute boss fight. That's 6547 DPS throughout the duration of the fight. Now imagine top Hunter DPS without the ICC 30% buff was about 13k, and that's 50% Auto Shot DPS. That's still not counting procs and stuff, which could easily increase Auto Shot damage well past 60%.

Haste buff stacking and proper stutter stepping while Bloodlust is up, and the fact that Auto Shot DPS increased even more with Haste while Chimera Shot stayed the same, and it was normal to see up to 60% of total DPS for Marks coming from Auto Shots. 30-40% for Survival. I can see if I can dig up any of my old 25-man Heroic Festergut parses if you'd like further proof of what an endgame Hunter really is.

Now some of you are probably thinking what this all has to do with FFXIV. Different games, blah blah blah. Ok cool. But think about the significance of Auto Attack in WoW and the possibility that Auto Attack could be just as valuable in FFXIV (deals considerable DPS, uber affected by Haste). I don't know about you, but if Auto Attack in this game is anywhere near like other games, even the lower end 30% of total DPS is quite a steep amount of DPS to be missing, let alone 60%. Yes I was a top contributor to endgame Hunter theorycrafting when I played, and yes I spent way too much time playing that awful game. I said it before, I'm very experienced when it comes to competitive endgame as a ranged DPS class (WoW and FFXI included), so I have no doubt my concerns are quite founded.

For the whole "ARCs need to watch damage" thing, I can't say that's a good excuse since with job balances, adjustments to attributes, etc. I'm pretty sure that will be addressed

I call for a truce on the Archer debate, maybe some hugs in AA range.

The battle mechanics that are present today may not be the mechanics after the patch. And the auto attack envisioned for melee may be affected by other factors that does not make it the DPS bonus it sounds from other MMORPGS.

Wait, see, adapt, but most of all, love.

*bribes a shirtless lalafell boy to dance for us*

For everyone claiming that AA won't dramatically change things:

- Did you ever seriously play XI and see just how overpowered Haste was? (still is)
- Do you realize who exactly it is that's programming this game?

Yeah, I have every reason to be highly skeptical. I'm seeing Matsui & the other devs repeating the exact same mistake that made ranged attacks obsolete in XI. RNG is still a total mess because even though it recently gained a very powerful WS (Jishnu's Radiance) and an equally devastating job trait (Dead Aim), it still faces the same 2 problems it always has:

- Lack of Haste to abuse auto-attack for DPS & TP gain
- Too fragile for the kind of enmity it can generate with it's strongest attacks


So excuse me if I rather liked ARC the way it was in this game, you know, relevant and fun.

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Originally Posted by Fiosha_Maureiba

*bribes a shirtless lalafell boy to dance for us*

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I think I love you... but I may love the lalafell boy more. Totally nonsexual.

Update 1.18 is still the first step for new Battle System.
For what I see, probably, Buffs like Ferocity, Raging Strike and etc, won't be executed/trigger by Auto Attack.
It will be only be done by Weapon Skill or manual attack (e.g. light shot). That is why I think one of the reason light shot not given AA.

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Originally Posted by NefGP

For everyone claiming that AA won't dramatically change things:

- Did you ever seriously play XI and see just how overpowered Haste was? (still is)
- Do you realize who exactly it is that's programming this game?

Yeah, I have every reason to be highly skeptical. I'm seeing Matsui & the other devs repeating the exact same mistake that made ranged attacks obsolete in XI. RNG is still a total mess because even though it recently gained a very powerful WS (Jishnu's Radiance) and an equally devastating job trait (Dead Aim), it still faces the same 2 problems it always has:

- Lack of Haste to abuse auto-attack for DPS & TP gain
- Too fragile for the kind of enmity it can generate with it's strongest attack.[/I]

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Dear God you don't listen.

A) RNG in XI has Haste: Snapshot.

B) Haste mechanics in XI =/=Haste mechanics in XIV (or any other MMO). There DOES NOT HAVE TO BE exponential increases which made Haste utterly broken.

C) Matsui did not develop the battle mechanics for XI. He became the battle director in 2006.

D) At the end of the day, RNG's problem is the lack of defense, not the lack of offense.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Dear God you don't listen.

A) RNG in XI has Haste: Snapshot.

B) Haste mechanics in XI =/=Haste mechanics in XIV (or any other MMO). There DOES NOT HAVE TO BE exponential increases which made Haste utterly broken.

C) Matsui did not develop the battle mechanics for XI. He became the battle director in 2006.

D) At the end of the day, RNG's problem is the lack of defense, not the lack of offense.

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A) Snapshot from merits caps at 10%, you don't get that much more from gear, and the lack of auto-attack means you're still way behind regular hasted DD's because of the manual input. Never mind that if you hit that input at the wrong time, you get penalized with a delay thus negating it altogether. But then you'd know that if you still played XI.

B) This game is being ran by XI's old dev team. 'nuff said.

C) He still oversees everything and ultimate has the authority to greenlight updates.

D) RNG's problems in XI are lack of enmity management and no real way to deal consistent damage without spiking and getting the mob's attention, or meleeing for TP thus feeding the mob TP which is detrimental.


Honestly, play XI some more before spouting nonsense. Never mind what this is going to do to ARC's solo ability, and with the proposed guild leve changes should make getting marks a nightmare. It's not like most mobs just sit back waiting for you to shoot them. So while the other melee classes are whooping butt with mobs right in their faces, ARC will be sitting there looking stupid with just our bare fists wishing we could use our ranged abilities.

{Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass.}

The "issue" with Archer AA is that when you solo, the mob(s) are right in your face so you can't hit the monster with your bow AND shoot an arrow. However punching the monster in between arrow shots doesn't make much sense either.

The "Pimp Slap" joke could become reality though IF the slap/punch was actually an attempt to shove the mob away. If the "shove" is successful, you hit it with a (working) ShadowBind and then get in a High-Powered WS that is dependant on distance.

But a shove is still kinds silly so just give Archers a "Kick Attack" that knocks back the enemy.

I dunno, it's late and I'm spit-balling on what will obviously be a broken system untill they figure out a better AA for Archer.

On the other hand, as a tail-less Galka ancestor I always enjoy punching things.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

lol...

The amount of silly people I see in these forums is just amazing.

When I see such fail logic as:
Archer gets close range AA in the form of fists > now we have to use our fists to fight instead of our arrows
... nothing describes my reaction better than a facepalm of epic proportions.

Then what really amuses me is that most of the people complaining about Archer not having a ranged AA seem to be players that do not have Archer to rank 50.

Archer in FFXIV is quite different than in other MMOs, and especially different from other classes. A ranged AA would hurt Archer more than help it. If you do not understand why this is the case, then please rank Archer to 50, go on some NM runs and see how you can truly maximize your DPS and usefulness as an Archer. When you realize it has nothing to do with how many times you can hit Light Shot in a minute, you will feel silly.

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Right, and the argument that the pro-AA people are making is that re-designing ARC is going to be better in the long run for game balance than preserving the current way it's played.

Every class needs major overhaul to make it more unique to play, and ARC is on that list as well. It will be much easier, from a long-term game balance perspective, to make the basic mechanics of ARC more like other classes. If that means that the current way ARC plays falls by the wayside, so be it. If it prevents ARC turning into RNG, I would consider it a net positive change.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

Hi Capita (and everyone upset at Archer's lack of Ranged AA),

I definitely see the "inconvenience factor" of having to press "1, 1, 1, 1, 1" for your own Light Shot at ranged distance, but there are few things to keep in mind:

1. Multishot / Trifurcate / Sleep / Shadowbind: There are situations and conditions right now in the game where these things exist. People have already mentioned Multishot and Trifurcate, and yes, it could be re-imagined as a Weaponskill instead of manually nocking Arrows, but it's not the case. This is the Final Fantasy team's choice.

Also, let's say you want to Shadowbind an Enemy (different play styles), if you have Auto-Attack, you just Bound an Enemy, but oops, your Auto Attack just fired off and you hit the Enemy, breaking the Bind.

Also with Slept Enemies, who knows what the "Cone" is like for Archers, but quickly turning away may not be fast enough and you may hit a Slept Enemy with Auto Attack (with the Archer's massive range) and woken it up.

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For Multishot/Trifurcate, there's no reason they could be triggered via a separate attack, rather than automatically wasted by auto attacking. Heck, if the concept of it seems strange (nocking extra arrows while still firing), have triggering Multishot/Trifurcate pause auto attack until those nocked arrows are fired.

I struggle to find uses for Shadowbind. Recast is too long to be terribly useful for soloing, and Bind is nigh on useless for group activities. Using that as a central argument is silly, especially since Shadowbind could be completely redesigned in any case.

Auto-attack will only attack the current target. If you're worried about automatically re-targeted and waking a slept mob, that is easily dealt with. Not worth losing sleep over.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kiara

2. Director Yoshida has said repeatedly that he wants each of the revised Class/Jobs to feel different, to have their own Class Uniqueness.

Right now, in FF XIV, all Melee classes can basically hit "1, 1, 1, 1, 1" (their basic attack), build up TP, unleash a WS, and repeat.

I'd say having one DoW Class in the future (after 1.18) that *doesn't* have Auto Attack (like every other Melee class) is a step towards "uniqueness."

None of us know what the New Archer is going to play like when their full Revised Battle System is in place.

Who's to say the New Archer isn't a Burst DPS Class?

Let's say for example, that after 1.18, they gain TP quite fast per Shot, but you manually shoot, and you choose your Shots with lots of different Buffs.

That'd feel totally different (and refreshing and welcome IMHO), vs. a Pugilist or Marauder that is building up via Auto Attack in close to the enemy.

They're revising and re-examining all Weaponskills, Traits, and Abilities. We don't know what the New Archer's full set is going to be, or how it's going to play.

I think it's best if we just wait and see what it's like with the full picture, before we criticize (or praise) the changes. :)

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Horrible analogy here, but children's with Down's Syndrome are unique. Doesn't mean people want to have the condition.

Unique is not an inherently positive term, and having one class being "unique" by having to button mash its auto attack is not unique in a good way.

And to reiterate from well above, the more similar the basic mechanics of ARC are to other classes (in terms of auto attack, lack of ammo limitations, etc.) the easier it will be to balance in the long run. Class uniqueness is important, class balance is just as important. There are other ways to make ARC unique (hell, it's already the only ranged non-magical DPS class, focus on that and exploiting ranged advantages for uniqueness) without making it a nightmare to balance.