Tanks That Hate Fluid Aura

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

So if a mob is eating me AND the tank I should drop everything and run over to the tank so they can get ate by an extra mob while I'm busy not healing to get said extra mob to them... sound logic.

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you don't even need to run really. 9 times out of 10, I see the tank chase after a mob that they just lost as a means to fix their mistake.

Guess what happens if the mob is punted while the tank is chasing it towards you...

As a blm someone using this spell often changes my facing and causes the spell to not cast, and lowering dps.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do. Tanks will just have to adapt.

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Then be prepared to be votekicked (imho deservedly so) and end up as the most unwanted healer around for your arrogant/cocky "I know better" attitude. Hint, you dont know better, and yes, the tank should be controlling the run/pulls. This coming from a primary endgame healer going back 15 years.

Anything that messes with mob positioning and can affect a tank controlling aggro has no business being used. Period.

As a soloing tool, its handy. It puts distance between you and the mob and lets you hammer on them for a couple of moments while staying safe. Let the tank do his job and you dont need it in a group.

Oh well, enjoy soloing, because with that attitude, thats what you'll end up doing most of the time, much to the benefit of tanks/dps who dont want to deal with your "I'm gonna do what I want" attitude.

Why couldn't we get just a standard Water spell? I know that Fluid Aura is the Water spell, but you can't use it from a long range unlike Stone and Aero.

When I'm playing as a tank or melee DD I find WHMs using Fluid Aura to be incredibly annoying with very few exceptions:

- When Fluid Aura is used to Stun something that would have killed us.
- When the WHM is smart enough to take advantage of the terrain and have Fluid Aura not move the mob much.

I imagine that the reasons I dislike Fluid Aura have been mentioned here already by other people:

- It forces me to chase around mobs so I can get them into the range of my AoE hate generating abilities.
- As a melee DPS, having the mob thrown around just makes fights take longer.
- This one might not be true, but I get the impression that Fluid Aura actually generates a lot of enmity and in lower level dungeons pre-Defiance/Shield Oath it takes some effort to get hate back.

I don't really care what's happening to the other mobs in a trash pack so long as the one I'm focusing (and the single target dps) does not get knocked back. I will say that I have been in situations where a trash mob has been knocked back for whatever reason, and because fluid aura is seen as kind of a WHM's "Oh ****" button, people get confused and sometimes switch target because they think I've lost aggro. It's really not a big deal but can make things more confusing than they need to be. I'm going to hazard a guess that the tanks you were dealing with are probably new to tanking and just stressing out over keeping aggro. If I recall correctly, Tam Tara was the easiest dungeon for me to tank in the entire game because I finally got rage of halone and could effectively rotate my single target emnity moves through a trash mob as opposed to relying solely on flash.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

Tanks are still telling me not to use a cool ability that I have sitting there on my hotbar.

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Fluid Aura is a very situational ability. I main WHM and I use it fairly often, but generally not in the circumstances you are describing. Because that's not what it's intended for. It is primarily useful in solo situations, but for the most part in groups it can not only be annoying for the tank but can also throw them off when they are trying to regain hate on a wayward mob. It can be used in party situations but imo that's not what it was really intended for. If your tank is doing their job then you have no need to use it, and part of their job is controlling stray mobs. So trust them and let them control the situation when it happens.

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Originally Posted by Pendragon72

Not to mention for a healer to put out damage is kinda frowned upon for the most part ........use sleep instead

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This is really not true. Sure it may vary depending on the group and what level of content you are undertaking, but healers should generally be helping with DPS as mush as they can.

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Originally Posted by CamAlch

but healers should generally be helping with DPS as mush as they can.

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Um, respectfully disagree.

If the healer needs to be DPS'ing to win a fight, you've got problems, like crappy DPS classes.

I mean what is with this healers DPSing thing anyway? How much DPS does it contribute? It probably barely makes up for a lost GCD if you don't count AOE spamming.

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Originally Posted by Senfei

If I recall correctly, Tam Tara was the easiest dungeon for me to tank in the entire game because I finally got rage of halone and could effectively rotate my single target emnity moves through a trash mob as opposed to relying solely on flash.

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You're thinking of Toto-rak.
Tam-Tara is lv16, halone is 26.
You only got savage blade and flash as your enmity boost.

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Originally Posted by Worm

I mean what is with this healers DPSing thing anyway? How much DPS does it contribute? It probably barely makes up for a lost GCD if you don't count AOE spamming.

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Probably? I take it you haven't actually compared how much faster things die with healers using Cleric Stance between heals... The difference is very noticeable. Not to mention there is no 'lost' GCD because a healer doing damage is likely a healer who didn't need to heal at that time (i.e. they were twiddling their thumbs doing nothing). On trash pulls a WHM can drop a Divine Seal buffed Regen on the tank and usually forget about healing for 10-20 seconds. A SCH can just let Eos do everything and barely have to ever worry about directly healing the tank. Why would you NOT want your healers dealing damage when they have nothing better to do?

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Originally Posted by Naraku_Diabolos

Why couldn't we get just a standard Water spell? I know that Fluid Aura is the Water spell, but you can't use it from a long range unlike Stone and Aero.

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Wait for the Geomancer job which is most likely going to be the DPS counterpart to WHM.

Again, dpsing as a healer is fine, but don't do it stupidly. You don't just get to attack whatever you want.

I personally would just let you die.

Fluid Aura is there to push away an enemy if you get aggro etc, it's not really there for general use. I do use it to annoy other party members if they have bothered me in any way though lol

Tanks that don't understand how other classes abilities work get mad over everything. Kind of like how a good chunk of this thread is a bunch of assumptions how something doesn't work. If anyone is having threat issues because of it, you have bigger problems. Knock backs look nothing like a mob running away, it's also going to get rooted after it powerslides away 15 metres.

Healers that actually do something other than stand there and be useless between heals also make dungeons much faster.

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Originally Posted by MythToken

Again, dpsing as a healer is fine, but don't do it stupidly. You don't just get to attack whatever you want.

I personally would just let you die.

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I like the you pull it you tank it philosophy.

The spell's use is situational, but for most part you're better off letting the tank regain aggro instead of blowing it away from the party, which only complicates the tank's job of getting it back.. melee DPS don't care much for the spell either :o

for those who think that "since it's on my hot bar i should use it", i'd like you to join me in something like ifrit HM and i'll just use Brutal Swing when the cool down is over every single time. I hope you enjoy eruptions and plumes. And maybe after, we'll do ADS in Turn 1, and lets all use our silence attacks all at once. We should right? because we have it?

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Originally Posted by Tiraelina

Tanks that don't understand how other classes abilities work get mad over everything. Kind of like how a good chunk of this thread is a bunch of assumptions how something doesn't work. If anyone is having threat issues because of it, you have bigger problems. Knock backs look nothing like a mob running away, it's also going to get rooted after it powerslides away 15 metres.

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Main point is that the knockback is in and of itself annoying as hell to all melee (and sometimes other spell casters). It should be used as an "oh crap i'm about to get munch on" moment and not part of a healer dps rotation. Dps with stone/stone 2, aero. The aggravation is akin to a tank that parks mobs known to cleave, AoE, etc right on top of casters forcing them to move. Completely unnecessary.

Ever herped so hard you derped?

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Originally Posted by Alberel

Probably? I take it you haven't actually compared how much faster things die with healers using Cleric Stance between heals... The difference is very noticeable. Not to mention there is no 'lost' GCD because a healer doing damage is likely a healer who didn't need to heal at that time (i.e. they were twiddling their thumbs doing nothing). On trash pulls a WHM can drop a Divine Seal buffed Regen on the tank and usually forget about healing for 10-20 seconds. A SCH can just let Eos do everything and barely have to ever worry about directly healing the tank. Why would you NOT want your healers dealing damage when they have nothing better to do?

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Oh since you've done all the comparisons can you tell me on average how many minutes this saves? Also I'm talking about a DPS losing a GCD, not the healer, I'm trying to say the DPS contributed is probably pretty trivial.

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Originally Posted by mythicrose

Main point is that the knockback is in and of itself annoying as hell to all melee (and sometimes other spell casters). It should be used as an "oh crap i'm about to get munch on" moment and not part of a healer dps rotation. Dps with stone/stone 2, aero. The aggravation is akin to a tank that parks mobs known to cleave, AoE, etc right on top of casters forcing them to move. Completely unnecessary.

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Thank you for not even reading the OP like everyone else.

Knocking back non-primary targets makes the tank/party take less damage and can interrupts casts. Freeing up the healer to do more damage themselves. You can be the tank without having absolutely everything hitting you. Yet everyone that breaks sleeps seems to think they can't which is even more annoying.

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Originally Posted by Tiraelina

Thank you for not even reading the OP like everyone else.

Knocking back non-primary targets makes the tank/party take less damage and can interrupts casts. Freeing up the healer to do more damage themselves. You can be the tank without having absolutely everything hitting you. Yet everyone that breaks sleeps seems to think they can't which is even more annoying.

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Or they can use repose.

I used to use Fluid Aura for low level dungeons like Tam-Tara such as how the OP had. On off-targets.
My reasoning at first was it'll bypass a few initial hits on the tank. Since there is no way to sleep the mobs at low levels, this was the next best defensive action.
(Repose is level 26, Tam-tara is level 16~18, we don't even get Stoneskin (lvl34) on main WHM for those dungeons)

I've faded out from using it, mainly because saving the tank from 3~4 normal attack isn't worth the time and effort that I could be using throwing stone and aero on the main target.
Since, it Fluid Aura is more of an defensive action, I would rather lean towards offensive to just finish the dungeon faster.
Additionally, since it is a binding attack, if anyone happens to decide they want to attack the binded off-target, that'll un-bind the target. Thus, making your Fluid Aura action pointless in the first place.

Now, the only times that I do use Fluid Aura is if the tank is under geared and I have to focus all my efforts in keeping him alive. Which is rather rare.

As a tank the only time I don't like when a WHM toss Fluid Aura willy nilly, is the same reason the OP has mentioned.
The worst case scenario is when a WHM knocks back those demons that spawns after the imps in Tam-tara. The reason being is it'll knock the demon over the ledge.
This causes the demon to be out of the line of sight of all ranged DPS.
Additionally, if the tank has to move towards the knocked back demon, then the tank is also out of the line of sight from the healer.
This means now the healer can't target the tank, and everyone has to position themselves.

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Originally Posted by Klandestineone

Or they can use repose.

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In the context of most of the posts here they would get mad if you used fluid aura and slept it away from everything else so it doesn't get broken. They would also feel compelled for some reason to to run over and hit it. Because it might make it hard on someone attacking a target they never should've been on.

Just an idea here.. Call it a random strike of DUH.. but why not just stand 15 yalms from the tank. Healer gets hate? Okay then, Fluid Aura.. Suddenly, OMG! The mob is magically right back in front of the tank once more! You can all call the bomb squads now, because I'm sure your minds were all just blown.

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Originally Posted by Tiraelina

In the context of most of the posts here they would get mad if you used fluid aura and slept it away from everything else so it doesn't get broken. They would also feel compelled for some reason to to run over and hit it. Because it might make it hard on someone attacking a target they never should've been on.

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So now you're advocating using two abilities (Fluid Aura and Repose) to achieve the same effect that a single ability could have achieved (Repose) all the while still annoying the tank. A mob that has been knocked away from the tank is a mob that isn't getting hit with Flash.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

So now you're advocating using two abilities (Fluid Aura and Repose) to achieve the same effect that a single ability could have achieved (Repose) all the while still annoying the tank. A mob that has been knocked away from the tank is a mob that isn't getting hit with Flash.

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Did you read what you quoted or are you just trying to pick an imaginary argument? You also have provoke when it wakes up.

I swear you would've thrown your system out the window if CC was used to pull like other games.

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Originally Posted by Worm

I mean what is with this healers DPSing thing anyway? How much DPS does it contribute? It probably barely makes up for a lost GCD if you don't count AOE spamming.

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Originally Posted by Teirshin

If the healer needs to be DPS'ing to win a fight, you've got problems, like crappy DPS classes.

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I hope these statements are made in relation to dps'ing with fluid aura specifically... Otherwise, I think the two of you need to rethink what you're saying... Big time.

I won't get into the reasons why since that is kinda unrelated to the topic in this thread, but seriously there's a whole separate discussion about dps as whm... I suggest you both go and read that thread.

ofc i will get angry if u use it for anything beside saving yourself if i ever lose aggro

As both a White Mage and a tank, I've got no issue with using Fluid Aura if you are being attacked, but I wouldn't recommend using it for much besides. Generally, the best use of the skill is facing towards the tank so that when the mob is pushed back, the tank can easily grab it with Provoke and Flash, thus saving you the need to concern yourself with the beast.

One thing to be careful of is how you manage aggro after that. As a tank, you need to hit provoke AND a hate-building skill like Flash to keep that mob off the healer, which means waiting on GCD. Healers should be wary of this fact and avoid building too any aggro until it's re-established on the tank. In general this should be pretty easy, but in tougher fights like Coil Turn 4, not curing can be a death sentence for someone so in those circumstances just play it by ear.

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Originally Posted by Klandestineone

Or they can use repose.

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That's actually even more annoying even though the whm thinks it helps. I've seen that macro where whm's fluid then repose...it's stupid.

It may help once in a blue moon, and tanks tolerate it, but it completely kills grouping, make everyone's targeting wonkly, especially the tank. A good couple of seconds is lost with everyone finding the are hitting an out of range target..and realistically, brute force tactics is normally much much much more effective for trash pulls This is because you regen at rapid rates out of battles.

For the 6-8 seconds while a whm is doing that stupid macro, and may actually help, that's 3 cures gone, or a burst down.

In most trashy pulls, a good pt can stun lock and aoe and burst down the 1st target in seconds, leaving 2,3 easy pickings. A whm that think's he's excellent and fluids things and then wastes more CD time and reposes...well shit, complete formation lost.

maybe 1/10 pt would actually want a whm that repose much less fuid on the offense. It's great for defense, but it causes more problems then it solves. There is maybe one or two difficult pulls per dungeon, if any.

as the other how many other pages have posted,

+1 for DO NOT use fluid arua unless something has gone wrong. As both a melee DPS and as a tank, it is VERY annoying. Please and thank you ^^

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

Someone that wants to enjoy all the abilities SE gave my job. And to JayCommon above, actually it's not harassment to continue using the abilities SE gave my job. That's crazy talk. I'm not touching the tank's hiney w/ Fluid Form here. I'm playing the game w/ abilities SE gave me using my own best judgment. I think asking me not to do that is equally unreasonable.

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By that logic casting cure on yourself when the tank is taking damage is ok because your using your abilities it's not your fault your using them wrong right?

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Originally Posted by Tiraelina

Did you read what you quoted or are you just trying to pick an imaginary argument? You also have provoke when it wakes up.

I swear you would've thrown your system out the window if CC was used to pull like other games.

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You just keep burying yourself deeper. So now you're advocating using 3 abilities (Fluid Aura, Repose and Provoke) to do the job of a single ability (Repose).

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Originally Posted by mylam

I hope these statements are made in relation to dps'ing with fluid aura specifically... Otherwise, I think the two of you need to rethink what you're saying... Big time.

I won't get into the reasons why since that is kinda unrelated to the topic in this thread, but seriously there's a whole separate discussion about dps as whm... I suggest you both go and read that thread.

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Well I'm still here waiting to be told how many minutes per dungeon this saves the group. Somehow I'm sure it's trivial and that's why the post where I ask is being avoided. The OP just posted some garbage theory craft and people are bending over backwards to justify it. Look I understand the only reason for these arguments is probably some other thread where yet again, a lot of people want to establish some new shifting standard so they can rag on people in Duty Finder. I realize it's going to be some stupid forum turf war going on somewhere else, since that's literally the only reason someone would defend the OP's stance.

I get it, I'm sure there's some giant WHM DPS thread and everyone should do it and that's the new meta or whatever. The accidental benefit of all this amazing new tech is that you get to talk down to any WHM you see not DPSing and that makes you feel superior, though the real point is the theorycraft not the sense of superiority. HOWEVAH if you're going to claim greater knowledge than me or anyone in this thread you probably should have a solid figure of how much time this actually saves a group. If a healer can safely DPS they probably should but the benefits are probably firmly between trivial and mediocre in regards of time saved, and if you're going to claim it's better than that you better LEAD with some data, not just tell me to go read some 50 page thread of non-stop back and forth.

I always used Fluid Aura. I was told in one dungeon not to use it so I didn't use it that dungeon. A few weeks later I used it again and the tank asked me not to use it. Neither were rude about it so I stopped using it for them.
Since the second person asked me not to use it I have only ever used it when something is coming at me or another user who isn't a tank or when a monster is about to be killed.
Other than that I won't use it.

I have to ask though.
A WHM should never use Holy in a dungeon, right?

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Originally Posted by Teirshin

Um, respectfully disagree.

If the healer needs to be DPS'ing to win a fight, you've got problems, like crappy DPS classes.

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Not to necessarily win a fight but for dungeons it helps to have the healers dps, especially in dungeons (trash mobs). I personally think that as a healer you're being even more effective if you help with the dps. As a SCH i'm putting up DoTs just as much as I'm healing, the same with WHM where holy/aero/stoneII is used.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

You just keep burying yourself deeper. So now you're advocating using 3 abilities (Fluid Aura, Repose and Provoke) to do the job of a single ability (Repose).

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It's like you play some imaginary game where pugs attack the correct marked targets 100% of the time.

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Originally Posted by Tiraelina

Did you read what you quoted or are you just trying to pick an imaginary argument? You also have provoke when it wakes up.

I swear you would've thrown your system out the window if CC was used to pull like other games.

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i may not be reading this right....but are you suggesting that its okay for the healer to blast the target out of range and sleep it, then the tank to use provoke, which has a long recast, to pick it back up? the point of working as a team is to make everyones job easier. this sounds like...."oh well, the tank needs to be on his toes while i sabotage the smooth run because provoke will save us". You'll waste provoke on that unnecessary target and then what if something goes wrong and the tank needs it again? they won't have it. If my healer wants to make my job harder, they get to tank their own mob. simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Quenn

I have to ask though.
A WHM should never use Holy in a dungeon, right?

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Depends on the dungeon. In Wanderer's Palace it's great to spam holy in speed runs because of its stun.

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Originally Posted by Quenn

I have to ask though.
A WHM should never use Holy in a dungeon, right?

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DPS to your hearts content as long as you're able to keep everyone alive.

No one likes when mobs get knocked back by pets or Fluid Aura because it does more bad than good.