AOE Toggle Needs to GO

- Remove confirmation via Enter

- Implement ability to toggle AoE on/off for Offensive/Defensive spells separate from each other

- Allow players to claim more than 1 monster

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Originally Posted by Evangela

Yes, Remove it! along with the need of ENTER pressing to confirm the cast, scrap it! in other games I just press 1 or 2 or 3 or whatever to cast a spell in one button

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^This. QFT.

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Originally Posted by Rowyne

Macros are simply workarounds. If we have to live our lives by macros, then something is broken.

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Why do you think games (online and offline) include macros or an ability to "queue" actions? Because the game is "broken"? Revelation.

Actually, because it helps you be more efficient.

As a tank, I'd like to point out that the extra button press for target confirmation is a good thing. I don't want to have to untarget my current enemy just to be able to taunt off of the healer when they decide to aggro something they shouldn't have. Also, I'd like everyone to note that it's the same number of button presses for me to use abilities like taunt as it is for everyone else to cure. That's not the fault of the aoe toggle, because taunt doesn't even have an aoe option.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

As a tank, I'd like to point out that the extra button press for target confirmation is a good thing. I don't want to have to untarget my current enemy just to be able to taunt off of the healer when they decide to aggro something they shouldn't have. Also, I'd like everyone to note that it's the same number of button presses for me to use abilities like taunt as it is for everyone else to cure. That's not the fault of the aoe toggle, because taunt doesn't even have an aoe option.

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How is your healer agroing things if they are healing? :3

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Why do you think games (online and offline) include macros or an ability to "queue" actions? Because the game is "broken"? Revelation.

Actually, because it helps you be more efficient.

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Macros do help you become more efficient. Unfortunately for such a core mechanic a macro isn't the best solution, just a slight improvement. Macros may work in some capacity for now, but the aoe toggle still needs to be examined.

And the macro system for XIV is still quite unsavory. I'd like to see it improved as well, but that is another topic/thread to come.

This is ridiculous. You guys can't even keep your own arguments straight.

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Originally Posted by Tibian

5. With the elimination of the toggle, more "Final Fantasy"-esque spells can return. IE: Cura/Curaga/Fira/Firaga

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A few examples of "Final Fantasy" (esque?) games that have Toggled AOE:

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Originally Posted by Roll

Final Fantasy 4, Final Fantasy 5, Final Fantasy 6, Final Fantasy 9...

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Originally Posted by Rowyne

Are we seriously justifying this because it's been done in standalone RPGs?

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Are you kidding me? YOU TWO ARE THE ONES WHO TRIED TO JUSTIFY THIS.
...or did you simply mean it was done in XI and therefore XI is the end-all-be-all to what makes FF feel like FF? Get your own fng arguments in order. How are you two not embarrassed enough to quit this thread?

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Originally Posted by Tibian

There are valid points to each side of keeping and altering the toggle and I think ultimately the dev team needs to address the issue with the battle update or shortly after upon determining how the battle system/fixes work.

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Originally Posted by Tibian

AOE Toggle needs to be removed. Terrible terrible terrible concept.

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Notice the difference between these two statements? One is a reasonable request (after being tempered against my arguments) and the other is your original assertion which demands action with little to support 1) how toggle makes the game terrible or 2) how removing it would make the game better. I think we can ALL agree it needs improvement and the devs will be the judge of how.

Do you have a right to voice your opinion that it's terrible? Sure, go ahead, but to demand immediate removal is childish and clearly not the best option and you have failed to give me (or SE) any reasons why you're right and I'm wrong. It's not a popularity contest. The amount of "Likes" don't mean anything.

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Originally Posted by Tibian

SE needs to make individual AOE spells or somehow remake the AOE mechanics. The toggle is too much of a hassle to deal with, especially when aggro'd groups don't even yield SP until they turn red.

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How many times must I say - they are changing enmity and they are changing the claim conditions. Do you need or want links to these statements? I can provide them but I've chosen not to because I thought this was common knowledge. How often does it need to be expressed to be clear? The problems you have with "Toggle" are being fixed. You are making up shit like it causes confusion and delay (Sir Topham Hat quote) when I'm telling you it doesn't cause ME any confusion or delay. So it's just two sides of a coin. Am I a better healer than you? Who knows, but the system doesn't hinder me.

Rowyne states her #1 concern is the "AOE confirmation" (which doesn't exist). I agree that having the toggle on screen at all times would be better because I often don't know if I'm in or out of AOE until I'm selecting a spell (and that's obnoxious) but what you want ... well it wouldn't work for my playstyle. I'd have to adapt, much like you have to adapt.

You see, I like to keep my target cursor on the mob so I can make sure to keep DOT up. I like to see what buffs and debuffs he has on him and I like to keep track of how much HP he has so I can manage MP to the best of my ability. I have the mob targeted at all times (even when 100% healing as I did in XI) and then use the sub-target system (stpc in XI) to target the tank or the DD group as needed.

It's just a matter of personal preference. I'm not using that as a reason to keep it. I'm simply stating that you can stomp your foot and say you like Target, Cure - but can say I like pushing Cure, Target, Enter. It's an extra button push, but I prefer it so I can watch the mob and make sure I am targeting the correct ally with Cure.

Personal preference excluded, there's no reason to throw away the system in place.

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Originally Posted by Tibian

The counter argument to the evaluation of revamping or even looking at the AOE toggle is that "I like the AOE Toggle and your argument is flawed because I like it!" Is mainly what I hear.

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Then you aren't listening.
I'll say it again: Personal preference excluded, there's no reason to throw away the system in place.

I'm saying you & your supporter (Rowyne) site personal preferences as if they're valid arguments. I'm simply stating I have a personal preference too (to negate yours)! and thus it's a throw away argument (on both sides). That's all I'm saying and I have supporters in this thread too.

You have suggested we throw away something that works, and works well, without giving any reason aside from personal preference and user error to create an entirely new system from scratch. You want to change your song and dance to fixing it so it works better? Please, change your Topic & edit your first post. I implore you. Fixing systems in the game to work more smoothly is ALWAYS better than wasting development time producing a new (old) system (that you're more comfortable using).

I'm just here to balance out your ridiculous demands with sound reason.
Toggle works as its currently implemented. Leave it alone.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

"We want this game as different as possible from FFXI."

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I stand corrected - no one except SE staff complained about -ga spells.

People love it - let's change it!

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Originally Posted by Shai

This is ridiculous. You guys can't even keep your own arguments straight.

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I think you're getting them confused. Single player games should never be compared to MMO's.

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Do you have a right to voice your opinion that it's terrible? Sure, go ahead, but to demand immediate removal is childish and clearly not the best option and you have failed to give me (or SE) any reasons why you're right and I'm wrong. It's not a popularity contest. The amount of "Likes" don't mean anything.

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The amount of likes means other people agree with my opinion(s). So therefore, the entire concept of examining the AOE toggle isn't as far-fetched as you want to believe.

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Then you aren't listening.
I'll say it again: Personal preference excluded, there's no reason to throw away the system in place.

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I've given you reasons which I feel are incredibly legitimate. You just seem to throw them away and call them insignificant whereas I have acknowledged the fact that the AOE toggle can remain in some capacity with a bit of work. I've also explained why the removal of the system could add further depth to the game, which you also seem to ignore or cannot seem to grasp the concept.

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I'm just here to balance out your ridiculous demands with sound reason.
Toggle works as its currently implemented. Leave it alone.

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You're here mainly argue, not even discuss the concept of removing or altering it because you prefer it.

If anything you're the one blinded by personal preferences.

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Originally Posted by Tibian

I think you're getting them confused. Single player games should never be compared to MMO's.

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Then why did you do it? You told us that Firaga makes the game feel more like FF. Last I checked there's 2 MMO with "Final Fantasy" and countless dozens of "Final Fantasy" games that are standalone. You made this argument, not us. You should have said "It would make this game feel more like FFXI" but that would sound ridiculous, wouldn't it? You know where that argument gets you on this forum.

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The amount of likes means other people agree with my opinion(s). So therefore, the entire concept of examining the AOE toggle isn't as far-fetched as you want to believe.

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If it is so widespread (all 30 people) they should have come up with some solid answers as to why it would make the game better to remove the system other than "it would feel more like XI" and "I like Firaga." The option to AOE exists in XI and in XIV and the enmity and claim values are being adjusted (hopefully for the better) so devs are already working on that aspect of the argument. You're 30 like fan club don't help your case. They just appear as useless as your argument.

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I've given you reasons which I feel are incredibly legitimate. You just seem to throw them away and call them insignificant whereas I have acknowledged the fact that the AOE toggle can remain in some capacity with a bit of work. I've also explained why the removal of the system could add further depth to the game, which you also seem to ignore or cannot seem to grasp the concept.

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You've told me the system causes you confusion & delay. I've told you that after 9 months, it causes me no confusion and no delay. I have never lagged out or let anyone die because I was too busy toggling Cure. I have had people die because the target system itself is an abomination and their countless tweaks to it only bandaid a gaping wound - but I don't blame targeting inadequacy (which is both UI & user error) on the AOE toggle.

You have said it can add further depth to the game, but failed to explain how or why you think so. Just saying things doesn't make them obvious or clear to everyone. I can also say the AOE toggle adds depth to the game. (I don't think it does, but I can say that). There's no difference between Fire II (toggled AOE) and Firaga. It's the same spell and the same mechanic. Does it need to cost more MP, cause more enmity, have a bigger animation? Yeah sure, why not. That would actually IMPROVE the game, but the "toggle" itself is just the same as selecting a different spell.

Noticeable differences are that we have 30 Action Bar spaces and limited Slot costs so effectively doubling the # of spells in the game would be a serious disadvantage over the current system. They could work around that, but you're talking about working out entirely new UI systems simply because you don't like pushing 1 extra button. How is that reasonable?

You want to demand the toggle is more intuitive and streamlined? Go for it. Anyone anywhere can argue anything should be more intuitive and streamlined (especially without giving examples) and who could argue? "NO I LIKE IT NOT STREAMLINED." Yeah, no one is going to say that. They may argue your idea/examples of fixing a problem are not in line with their idea and that's their right as is my right to tell you that scrapping Toggle and adding double the spells adds nothing to the game that isn't already there with 1 extra click per spell.

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You're here mainly argue, not even discuss the concept of removing or altering it because you prefer it. If anything you're the one blinded by personal preferences.

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No, I'm arguing because I'm tired of these ridiculous ideas gaining momentum and devs taking them seriously without fans around to stand up and say "No, this is absurd. 30 likes do not indicate we want this." You're differing the argument on to me because your stance isn't holding any water. I tear into it like a pinata every attempt you've made at justifying why this grand sweeping change is necessary. It's not. All you want from an AOE/No-AOE system exists, all the depth and decision making and tough choices and game winning strategy - it already exists. Just learn to use it and if anything ask for them to make it easier to use.

Stop trying to divert dev attention from real changes that need to be made. We wasted 6 months building auto-attack because of the 111111 argument. We could have had player run companies and delivery boxes by now. I'm tired of this stupid petty shit getting the forefront attention when the game works the way you want it to work already.

No where in that rant does it say "I'm championing this cause because I like Toggle!" so stop pretending it does.

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Originally Posted by Shai

Stop trying to divert dev attention from real changes that need to be made. We wasted 6 months building auto-attack because of the 111111 argument. We could have had player run companies and delivery boxes by now. I'm tired of this stupid petty shit getting the forefront attention when the game works the way you want it to work already.

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Hummm no. If all they wanted to change was auto-attack it would be done and we'd be moving on, however they decided it was a GREAT idea to scrap the current job system and most of it's sub systems by replacing it. That takes AGES, I wonder if all the people that voted "I'd be okay with a combat revamp" really thought how long this would actually take?!

If you are waiting for actual solid content to come in, I'm seriously advising to check back in 2012. And boy do I wish I was kidding..

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Originally Posted by Cendres

Hummm no. If all they wanted to change was auto-attack it would be done and we'd be moving on, however they decided it was a GREAT idea to scrap the current job system and most of it's sub systems by replacing it. That takes AGES, I wonder if all the people that voted "I'd be okay with a combat revamp" really thought how long this would actually take?!

If you are waiting for actual solid content to come in, I'm seriously advising to check back in 2012. And boy do I wish I was kidding..

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Agreed.

Combat and gameplay should always come before content. That is why the game is free. Its hard to take Shai's discussion seriously now after reading that he or she would rather have a delivery box in place before the game even functions properly.

should be spells like cure & curega maybe things will change when WHM pops up.

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Originally Posted by Shai

This is ridiculous. You guys can't even keep your own arguments straight.

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I think you're confused. What I was saying was that standalone RPGs cannot be compared to MMOs. Mechanics such as turn-based combat, toggles and extra confirmations do not work well in unpredictable real-time settings where time is of the essence.

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Originally Posted by Shai

Rowyne states her #1 concern is the "AOE confirmation" (which doesn't exist).

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Perhaps I didn't make this clear. The AoE toggle is part of the final spell confirmation. If it makes you feel better, we can technically say it's two issues which are bundled together. It is a redundancy that feels spammy.

It's akin to how Windows Vista used to always throw a popup in your face. 'Do you really want do to this?' Seriously? Of course I want to do this. If I press the button on my action bar to cure, then yes, I want to cure. Cast the spell, quit throwing extra roadblocks in my way.

To get through this confirmation as quickly as possible, people either just AoE everything, or inadvertently do the opposite of what they wanted to do because of how they bundled the toggle into the confirmation.

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Originally Posted by Shai

I agree that having the toggle on screen at all times would be better because I often don't know if I'm in or out of AOE until I'm selecting a spell (and that's obnoxious)

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I did concede that if SE likes the toggle instead of splitting it out into separate spells, then it needs to be something more static and moved out of a confirmation mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Shai

You see, I like to keep my target cursor on the mob so I can make sure to keep DOT up. I like to see what buffs and debuffs he has on him and I like to keep track of how much HP he has so I can manage MP to the best of my ability. I have the mob targeted at all times (even when 100% healing as I did in XI) and then use the sub-target system (stpc in XI) to target the tank or the DD group as needed.

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I understand what you're talking about. But I think they could implement better mechanics that will allow this, such as a focus frame or target-of-target, and it wouldn't necessitate the current always-hit-enter spell confirmation.

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Originally Posted by Shai

I'm simply stating that you can stomp your foot and say you like Target, Cure - but can say I like pushing Cure, Target, Enter. It's an extra button push, but I prefer it so I can watch the mob and make sure I am targeting the correct ally with Cure.

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I'm not stomping my feet. I'm not getting irate. I've tried to keep this thread civil. But I'm glad you finally understand it's extra button pushing.

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Originally Posted by Rowyne

I did concede that if SE likes the toggle instead of splitting it out into separate spells, then it needs to be something more static and moved out of a confirmation mechanic.

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This I like. Have it toggle-able from outside of combat/spells, and remove the toggle before casting spells.

ad nauseum wins the day.

I can only repeat myself so often before I want to crush my skull in a vice.

LETS THROW AWAY TOGGLE! YEAH!

MORE REDUNDANT SPELLS TO SORT THROUGH PLEASE.

/thread

I like the aoe toggle, but i use a controller. It's just more efficient. And it's not like this is the only PC game that is easier/more enjoyable to play with a controller.

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but why is it that support spells have the aoe option? I can definitely understand magic spells like fire, but what about protect and shell? I could see it being for cure if in the future they allow us to use it on the undead, but right now it's not that way. Shouldn't all support magic just be aoe without the toggle option?

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Originally Posted by Eldaena

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but why is it that support spells have the aoe option? I can definitely understand magic spells like fire, but what about protect and shell? I could see it being for cure if in the future they allow us to use it on the undead, but right now it's not that way. Shouldn't all support magic just be aoe without the toggle option?

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Perhaps threat management, less would be accumulated when only healing one person rather than Aoe spamming.

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Originally Posted by Eldaena

Shouldn't all support magic just be aoe without the toggle option?

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I've always thought that too. Unless there is a cap on how many buffs you can have, it should automatically be AoE, IMO. Very few situations where I would only want to buff one person (time and enmity).

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Originally Posted by Rowyne

I've always thought that too. Unless there is a cap on how many buffs you can have, it should automatically be AoE, IMO. Very few situations where I would only want to buff one person (time and enmity).

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In an idealistic situation I imagine some monsters/bosses would debuff and it would be practical to only do single buff on say.. a tank only. This would be in order to prevent aggro to casters, but fights dont like that exist right now. Furthermore I doubt well see complex fights for a good while until all the combat mechanics can support that style of casting, which they currently dont.

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Originally Posted by Rowyne

Macros are simply workarounds. If we have to live our lives by macros, then something is broken.

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And yet you want to turn this game into a FFXI-clone, never mind the fact that that game's spell lists were SO convoluted that macros were the only practical way to fire off spells quickly. Sounds like you WANT this game to be broken, just because you hate a particular feature.

I love the AOE toggle on game pad. So sexy!

They definitely need to do something about the AoE toggle. I think they either need to eliminate it altogether, or limit it to certain spells and possibly increase the mana cost when AoE mode is engaged (though I'd much rather them work it into specific abilities meant to be used for AoE).

are people just really running out of things to complain about?.... OP sorry but the toggle is not that hard to use, nor is it in the way, and the "controller" comment, FFXI and FFXIV are designed for controller use first, and keyboard/mouse second. This is not a debate, it is fact, and it will stay that way.

Meaningful content "should" be more important than [tweaks/revamps/additions] to combat.
If we prioritize the latter, "Great, combat is now (slightly more) fun. I still have nothing to do. (/quit or /vacation)"
Of course, non-issue since different teams work on each branch of content (or so we're told).

Static AoE toggle icon, like how target filter shows now, would be great.

For now, commit it (the current toggle) to muscle memory.

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Originally Posted by Vanguard319

And yet you want to turn this game into a FFXI-clone, never mind the fact that that game's spell lists were SO convoluted that macros were the only practical way to fire off spells quickly. Sounds like you WANT this game to be broken, just because you hate a particular feature.

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LOL, good Gods, no. I would never want this to be FFXI-2. How did you infer that? That game's UI was nothing but an archaic menu-driven console port. The menu-driven spell selection was the problem, not the number of choices.

My comment about macros was indeed a jab at FFXI. You had no choice but to live by macros to get anything done, because the UI prevented you from performing actions in a smooth and timely manner. I'd like to think we've advanced since then.

FFXIV is indeed somewhat better than its predecessor. You have an action bar, which would make you think that you can pick your action through a minimum of selections (two clicks--select target, select spell). But no, there are other issues, such as the action bars not being all visible all the time and the confirmation/toggle.

It feels like a PC/console hybrid. I definitely think SE can do better.

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Originally Posted by Vanguard319

And yet you want to turn this game into a FFXI-clone, never mind the fact that that game's spell lists were SO convoluted that macros were the only practical way to fire off spells quickly. Sounds like you WANT this game to be broken, just because you hate a particular feature.

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I'm having a hard time determining if this is sarcasm or not.

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Originally Posted by Rowyne

FFXIV is indeed somewhat better than its predecessor.

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If by somewhat better you mean graphically, it is indeed.

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Originally Posted by Rowyne

You have an action bar, which would make you think that you can pick your action through a minimum of selections (two clicks--select target, select spell). But no, there are other issues, such as the action bars not being all visible all the time and the confirmation/toggle.

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You would have the same problem without the aoe toggle
select main target -> select spell -> select spell target

Note to everyone one they are saying get rid of toggle, not moogle! DONT YOU DARE TOUCH MY MOOGLE'S SE!

Every mage who doesn't suck should have very convenient alt macros.
One turns AOE on.
The other turns AOE off.
Consider them stances that the jobs have.

If you suck at the stances...don't use them.
Don't petition to take away a very good system just because you keep screwing up and fiddling around on the wrong one.

Some of us can turn it on and off at will, easily, like 2nd nature.

About the only thing they could do is that you could tap a spell once for single target and twice for AoE, but that would be prone to data failures.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Every mage who doesn't suck should have very convenient alt macros.
One turns AOE on.
The other turns AOE off.
Consider them stances that the jobs have.

If you suck at the stances...don't use them.
Don't petition to take away a very good system just because you keep screwing up and fiddling around on the wrong one.

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I don't use any toggling macros, but I don't think I suck. =p I also don't think toggle is such a concern that it's making or breaking the game. It's not that difficult to use, but I find it obnoxious when I go to cast a buff and because I just logged in it's not AoE, for example.

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Originally Posted by Eldaena

I don't use any toggling macros, but I don't think I suck. =p I also don't think toggle is such a concern that it's making or breaking the game. It's not that difficult to use, but I find it obnoxious when I go to cast a buff and because I just logged in it's not AoE, for example.

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The default single target on login is a little annoying, but it's something that by the time you've screwed up party protect and shell 10 times, you remember to always check.

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Originally Posted by Kailea_Nagisa

are people just really running out of things to complain about?

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We could always bring back the J word.

Please for the love of all that's holy nobody take that seriously.

I wish they could at least change it to, if you're on a gamepad, press Circle for Single Target and Square/Triangle for AoE and if you're on a keyboard, press Enter for Single Target and Shift + Enter for AoE... or something similar..

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Originally Posted by Corrderio

We could always bring back the J word.

Please for the love of all that's holy nobody take that seriously.

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What J word?

I personally would be much happier with individual AOE spells. At the very least they should add an icon that shows if AoE is toggled on or off. When you use macros to toggle AoE on or off the only indicator that anything has changed is a small line of text in the text box. This can create problems, since I often use macros to cast my spells just to avoid the extra button press to confirm/toggle AoE.

I really hope they are adding an easier way to cancel spells as well, as the current way is absolute crap. Would it really be all that bad if spells were cancelled by moving?

No gamepad for the toggle. i want to play the game with a controler not with a keyboard.

They need to make it quick like pressing R1 to toggle the spell from Single to Aoe Right before you hit comfirm for spell.
Mouse it be right click.

I think the action menu at the bottom of the screen needs to be 3 rows of abilitys displayed instead of 1.

@Razzle. The claiming system is what was broken, not the AoE Toggle.

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Originally Posted by Venat

No gamepad for the toggle. i want to play the game with a controler not with a keyboard.

They need to make it quick like pressing R1 to toggle the spell from Single to Aoe Right before you hit comfirm for spell.
Mouse it be right click.

I think the action menu at the bottom of the screen needs to be 3 rows of abilitys displayed instead of 1.

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They do have a toggle for AoE on/off on the controller it is the same button you use to bring up the emote list, it is what I have mapped as my "Square button" on ps2 controller.

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Originally Posted by Dargoth_Draconia

@Razzle. The claiming system is what was broken, not the AoE Toggle.



They do have a toggle for AoE on/off on the controller it is the same button you use to bring up the emote list, it is what I have mapped as my "Square button" on ps2 controller.

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Indeed. Y on 360 controller by default. Very easy and convenient to use. It seems a lot of these game pad toggle buttons are not common knowledge like the Regime stack and start buttons. =/