Huge SMN nerf: we're losing Thunder

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Originally Posted by MakotoNano

How do you keep coming up with dependent? We aren't dependent on a CC skill, but as I've said, and about 100 others, which apparently isn't working for you. We are losing 10-15% of our DPS, with no compensation for that loss.

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We are compensated with AoE damage. They meant to nerf our ST damage, it's just a shame they had to remove a skill from our rotation to do it.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

...all the drama is about Rain of Death losing -10% damage mitigation, which was core to our job. If anything they pushed us more into being a DPS job and less into support.

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That was likely the point. This was making BRD essential for endgame content, or at least worth vastly more than its slot. I do think RoD could use some tweaking from here, though. 180TP for that? Garuda better have a hell of an evasion buff hiding under those tailfeathers.

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Originally Posted by MakotoNano

We are losing 10-15% of our DPS, with no compensation for that loss.

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This "10-15%" thing really needs to die. If 8 potency per second is 15% of your DPS, then you're doing about 120 DPS with a relic+1 and really need to re-evaluate your playing skill. What you've actually lost is more like 5-7% of your DPS.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

We are compensated with AoE damage. They meant to nerf our ST damage, it's just a shame they had to remove a skill from our rotation to do it.

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It is barely an increase in AoE damage--20 potency per target per cast(Difference between Tri-Disaster and B2).

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

This "10-15%" thing really needs to die. If 8 potency per second is 15% of your DPS, then you're doing about 120 DPS with a relic+1 and really need to re-evaluate your playing skill. What you've actually lost is more like 5-7% of your DPS.

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It is right around 10%. 11-15%? No, not even close.

Thunder is ~40 DPS or so(for me). Replacing that with a Ruin is ~4 casts a minute, which is 210-320 damage. This is ~14 DPS.

So we're sitting at a ~26 DPS loss, not including Contagion, Raging Strikes, or Int Pots.

Yes, it's roughly a 10% loss.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

It is barely an increase in AoE damage--20 per target per cast(Difference between Tri-Disaster and B2).

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Exactly and since we don't get umbrela ice it's just a mp waste of a skill.

All the tears and complaints in this thread are overreactions.

It ain't the end of the world, it doesn't mean SMN are bottom-tier DPS, they are still needed.
We'll do a bit less DPS.

So, out of curiosity, I went and tested the nerf. Since damage values on ruin aren't changed, this was actually simple. I timed how long it took to cast thunder and the effect's duration. I then cast thunder on a target and spammed ruin until thunder ran out. On the second target, I simply spammed ruin for the same duration (yes, including the time it takes to cast thunder). I did this 100 times to make sure I had a decently sized test pool. Here is a screenshot of the typical difference of damage. The target on the right is the thunder + ruin target. Target on the left is ruin only for the same duration:

http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acci...6ba7f3e378.png

So, yeah. So much for SPAM RUIN MOAR. Keep in mind that's 20.42 seconds (give or take a half a second of human reaction time) of damage. Imagine over the duration of a boss fight.

Keep in mind we're losing damage from the boots nerf too.

Honestly...I agree with everyone here about losing the Thunder..it SUCKS ; ; But...I think instead my main complaint is..since we had to rely on a cross class skill for damage and it is gone, why is nothing being compensated for it from our main? Like why is Ruin not getting a boost, or one of our other DoTs? I hope with the level cap raise they give us worthwhile stuff to make up for it..sigh.

Thunder takes up too much MP for summoner and we don't have Blizzard to get it back quickly. I took it off of my bars as soon as it started chewing up my MP like crazy. Thunder is not game breaking to SMN >.>.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

Thunder takes up too much MP for summoner and we don't have Blizzard to get it back quickly. I took it off of my bars as soon as it started chewing up my MP like crazy. Thunder is not game breaking to SMN >.>.

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It amazes me how many people didn't use Thunder. 1 Thunder cast is just as strong as your other dots. Why would you not use it? MP? like crazy? You cast it once every 18 seconds. That in NO way drains it like crazy.

you don't get compensated for nerfs. that's not how they work.

they could do something to increase the interactivity loss from thunder though.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

Thunder takes up too much MP for summoner and we don't have Blizzard to get it back quickly.

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Then you managed your mana poorly.
Twintania without double bards and I rarely had issues with mana, the one time I did was because I used Resurrect in phase 5 (final) when one black mage died to the 5x hellfire

Thunder WAS always part of my rotation - whenever I setup my first [Bio I] I had thunder before it - and after using Bane, I'd throw Thunder on the other targets.

Energy drain was used of course, because you shouldn't be using Fester on all 3 stacks in every fight of the game.
I speak more of Twintania here but to burst down the Conflagrations, I would Bane, Fester, Energy Drain - using all 3 stacks to burst the 2nd and 4th conflags.

This gave me a bit of mana back on top of the greater gain from using Aetherflow on cooldown.

Management of your abilities is important.
But anyway, I can do without Thunder (:

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

That was likely the point. This was making BRD essential for endgame content, or at least worth vastly more than its slot. I do think RoD could use some tweaking from here, though. 180TP for that? Garuda better have a hell of an evasion buff hiding under those tailfeathers.

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Actually, the reason obviously was to provide extra reason to bring a warrior to a raid since they got the debuff now. It feels more like they just tossed bard something random they knew would never be needed really.

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Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

I'm more worried that you have to be so dependent on a CC skill to have it so integral, that's all.

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It's a cross class skill we would always have. There is no way we would not have it. We have to level THM to 15 to become SMN. We are going to have Thunder no matter what. We are the DoT class, it only makes sense for us to rely on thunder. To argue that we shouldn't have to rely on it when we literally have to get it to become a SMN is idiotic and you may as well remove the requirement to level another class to access a Job. What if SCH Lost Cleric stance and gained Raise? It would be just as useless and be the exact same change we're getting.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

This "10-15%" thing really needs to die. If 8 potency per second is 15% of your DPS, then you're doing about 120 DPS with a relic+1 and really need to re-evaluate your playing skill. What you've actually lost is more like 5-7% of your DPS.

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It is literally 10-11% pure potency. With Garuda, all Dots up and using Ruin we put out 325 potency every 3 seconds. 350 including shadow flare (which we can't use on sleeping mobs anymore). Losing Thunder puts us at 290-315, which are 11% and 10% losses respectively. This is purely the potency we deal every 3 seconds in normal rotation.

I think it's pretty obvious summoner isn't loved :'( they just used it to badly copy another WoW class and taking another DoT away just makes it that much more boring.

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Originally Posted by Madoka

It is literally 10-11% pure potency. With Garuda, all Dots up and using Ruin we put out 325 potency every 3 seconds. 350 including shadow flare (which we can't use on sleeping mobs anymore). Losing Thunder puts us at 290-315, which are 11% and 10% losses respectively. This is purely the potency we deal every 3 seconds in normal rotation.

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Oh? Now, this is a bit rudimentary (spherical cows and that), but assuming no DoT downtime, in 360 seconds, you would use 12 BioII, 12 Shadow Flare, 15 Miasma, 20 Bio out of 144 GCDs, leaving 85 for Ruin. Then add just the basic 100 potency per 3s attack from Garuda and 3 uses of Fester per minute. That's 4200 + 3000 + 4500 + 4800 + 6800 + 12000 + 5400 = 40700 potency per 360s. You could previously replace 20 Ruin with Thunder at a gain of 160 per, which is 3200, totaling 43900. Thus, the reduction ration would be 40700/43900 = 0.9271. The nerf would then be 7.3%. Have I forgotten something?

(Not that I don't find it strange that SMN was nerfed, what with it being required for absolutely nothing.)

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Gang

You also gain Blizzard II at 50 potency

That's a huge buff to your AOE damage.

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http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g2...f-serious-.jpg

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

Oh? Now, this is a bit rudimentary (spherical cows and that), but assuming no DoT downtime, in 360 seconds, you would use 12 BioII, 12 Shadow Flare, 15 Miasma, 20 Bio out of 144 GCDs, leaving 85 for Ruin. Then add just the basic 100 potency per 3s attack from Garuda and 3 uses of Fester per minute. That's 4200 + 3000 + 4500 + 4800 + 6800 + 12000 + 5400 = 40700 potency per 360s. You could previously replace 20 Ruin with Thunder at a gain of 160 per, which is 3200, totaling 43900. Thus, the reduction ration would be 40700/43900 = 0.9271. The nerf would then be 7.3%. Have I forgotten something?

(Not that I don't find it strange that SMN was nerfed, what with it being required for absolutely nothing.)

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How do I numbers liek you

The problem is, a nerf wasn't needed. If they wanted to give us blizzard II why didn't they take away the stupid bard skill that gives us 15% physical accuracy / Dexterity .. and give us blizzard. At least then we'd have a useful 5th CC skill.

I have to admit, watching the only job i thoroughly enjoyed playing get a rather unneeded nerf is rather disappointing.

I mean I technically began playing the job because I wanted to use Carbuncle, only to find out he was replaced by Chicken Nugget man and a 5 year olds Windy Stick figure art project... but still, the job itself was interesting enough despite being "Necromancers according to Square Enix".

Eh...

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Originally Posted by MakotoNano

The problem is, a nerf wasn't needed. If they wanted to give us blizzard II why didn't they take away the stupid bard skill that gives us 15% physical accuracy / Dexterity .. and give us blizzard. At least then we'd have a useful 5th CC skill.

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They wouldn't need to replace anything, just make Blizzard II available to be cross-classed.

Honestly, sometimes I wonder if they even thought about how this would be an issue for Summoners. Someone on the battle team probably just went "Hey, it would be nice to give White Mage and Scholars an AoE bind. I know, lets replace Thunder with Blizzard II as a cross-class skill! I'm pretty sure White Mages and Scholars never use it anyway!" The guy probably forgot that Summoners existed.

Let's be honest: thunder isn't that great.

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Originally Posted by Alkel

not really, its the same nerf for BLM.
Now, its impossible to hit the precision cap with the allagan set. The stats on the boots now sux both for BLM and SMN.

We spend 3 month to get the best mixt possible for our gear set and they destroy everything with one update...

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It's SEs long term cunning plan! Nerf accuracy on gear so the useless change to Rain of Death becomes *cough* usefull XD

Bought myth boots this week because I needed to reach mythcap and coildrops have been nothing but mean to me.

How I feel over this fact:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.n...47246047_n.jpg

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

Oh? Now, this is a bit rudimentary (spherical cows and that), but assuming no DoT downtime, in 360 seconds, you would use 12 BioII, 12 Shadow Flare, 15 Miasma, 20 Bio out of 144 GCDs, leaving 85 for Ruin. Then add just the basic 100 potency per 3s attack from Garuda and 3 uses of Fester per minute. That's 4200 + 3000 + 4500 + 4800 + 6800 + 12000 + 5400 = 40700 potency per 360s. You could previously replace 20 Ruin with Thunder at a gain of 160 per, which is 3200, totaling 43900. Thus, the reduction ration would be 40700/43900 = 0.9271. The nerf would then be 7.3%. Have I forgotten something?

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This post should end about half this conversation, the half about how amazing Thunder was when it really wasn't.

Not that Summoners deserved a nerf, their DPS is extremely high at end game but they take a lot more work to play well, I felt like that balanced it out.

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Originally Posted by Resultsmayvary

This post should end about half this conversation, the half about how amazing Thunder was when it really wasn't.

Not that Summoners deserved a nerf, their DPS is extremely high at end game but they take a lot more work to play well, I felt like that balanced it out.

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No.

As I've been saying, it's roughly 10%.

His/her post is not factoring in RS, Contagion, Contagion+RS, or Int pots.

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Originally Posted by EvokerKeii

Or Criticals on DoTs.

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His/Her post was doing potency, not damage.

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Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR

Let's be honest: thunder isn't that great.

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Um, are you aware of its initial damage, plus its potency and up time, that its nearly on the same level as all of our other dots? So by that, you must mean all of our dots "aren't that great"

the way i look at it with losing thunder is basically every 18s you get to do 2 critical hit ruins worth of damage in a worst case scenario in a single global cooldown.
it's easily 5-10% of your damage being lost in a single stroke which seems like a big hit to me.

I mean sure summoner did the highest damage by a decent margin but really that's pretty much all summoner did, they have nearly no utility at all that can't be cross classed to just about any mage, their aoe is pathetic, and they have nearly no burst at all. If they don't do the highest single target dps they have no place in a group at all

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Originally Posted by Kevee

No.

As I've been saying, it's roughly 10%.

His/her post is not factoring in RS, Contagion, Contagion+RS, or Int pots.



His/Her post was doing potency, not damage.

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INT pots would raise the output of all spells so that's a wash, no?

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Originally Posted by Resultsmayvary

INT pots would raise the output of all spells so that's a wash, no?

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No, DoTs retain damage buffs beyond the buff duration--Until the DoT expires.

Its not a big nerf.

SMN was #1 DPS above BLM for end-game content (Twintania).
I don't see an issue with both the mage classes being brought in-line with other classes.

Our damage output really was the best.

Dot up twintania, dread knight appears: Oh look, our dots tick away on Twintania AND on the Dread Knight! (cast miasma asap though, don't be a baddie) while BLM can only dps one target (plus lucky thunder procs that can upkeep it on maybe 2 targets)

Seriously, losing Thunder will not mean the end of the class, all you wannabes are blowing things out of proportion and calling foul for no good reason.
Play the patch, look at the numbers, maybe we won't be #1 all the time, but we'll still be up there because our DPS uptime will always be greater than Melee and other ranged classes.

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Originally Posted by Kalandros

Its not a big nerf.

SMN was #1 DPS above BLM for end-game content (Twintania).
I don't see an issue with both the mage classes being brought in-line with other classes.

Our damage output really was the best.

Dot up twintania, dread knight appears: Oh look, our dots tick away on Twintania AND on the Dread Knight! (cast miasma asap though, don't be a baddie) while BLM can only dps one target (plus lucky thunder procs that can upkeep it on maybe 2 targets)

Seriously, losing Thunder will not mean the end of the class, all you wannabes are blowing things out of proportion and calling foul for no good reason.
Play the patch, look at the numbers, maybe we won't be #1 all the time, but we'll still be up there because our DPS uptime will always be greater than Melee and other ranged classes.

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Stop supporting horrible game design.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

No, DoTs retain damage buffs beyond the buff duration--Until the DoT expires.

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No no no, I got that part, what I mean is, in the math he/she did, nearly all things listed are DoT's, because that's what you do, which if using an INT potion would add to their DPS as well.

I think possibly I'm missing something or don't understand a specific Summoner ability that's creating a situation different than the one I'm visualizing.

So I guess ifrit is more likely a better choice now as much as I hate it?

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Originally Posted by Resultsmayvary

No no no, I got that part, what I mean is, in the math he/she did, nearly all things listed are DoT's, because that's what you do, which if using an INT potion would add to their DPS as well.

I think possibly I'm missing something or don't understand a specific Summoner ability that's creating a situation different than the one I'm visualizing.

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Thunder gets more contribution from an int potion/raging strikes than Ruin because the benefit goes beyond the timer of the buff.

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Originally Posted by AjoraOak

So I guess ifrit is more likely a better choice now as much as I hate it?

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No.

Ifrit is still 100% useless.

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Originally Posted by Kalandros

Our damage output really was the best.

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It may have been good for long drawn out fights, but it was always very bad at killing things quickly. So we better just hope none of the new content involves killing trash mobs, or SMN is going to be the least desired DPS in the game.

Unless of course SE adds some skill that is very high spike damage.

while I dislike a nerf in general, if smn was really that strong (like 350 DPS on Twintania that ppl claimed after the patch notes) 10% less dmg is still on par with other DDs (or even stronger... hey BRDs). I think the real problem comes with the unnecessary huge boost of MNK

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Originally Posted by Kevee

His/her post is not factoring in RS, Contagion, Contagion+RS, or Int pots.

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Raging Strikes is multiplicative and would have no impact at all on a fully continuous basis. The ability can only deviate from this based on discontinuities. Given of the duration, effect, and cooldown of Raging Strikes, any such effects would certainly fall into the margin of error; in an absolute best case, you'd get 20% of two extra Thunder replacements per 360s which is 64 potency per 360s. This is negligible. INT pots also aren't going to nearly push the needle one way or the other; a <15% buff over 1 use of thunder is less than 24 potency per 270s.

Contagion, however, can have a non-trivial impact, so I will include it. It applies 5 ticks of a DoT per 60 seconds. Over 360 seconds (6 uses, or 30 ticks), this is 1050 potency for Thunder, Miasma, and BioII. Bio gets 1200 due to ticking at 40 potency. This is 3300 for post-nerf case and 4350 for pre-nerf case. Thus, your Contagion-corrected reduction ratio is 44000/48250 = 0.912 -- an 8.8% reduction.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

Thunder gets more contribution from an int potion/raging strikes than Ruin because the benefit goes beyond the timer of the buff.

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That is misleading. Accounting the alternative per GCD gives neither greater benefit. Thunder gives you 240 potency from its GCD and Ruin gives 80, being 3x the potency per GCD. Under Raging Strikes, both gain 20%, and the potency ratio is still 3x -- nothing has changed. It would be more accurate to state that DoTs do not suffer reduced benefit -- the benefit is identical to that enjoyed by an ability which applies all damage up front.

nerf summoners way too op in pvp :D