The reason I mentioned PotD/HoH is that's the only time it's long enough to be noticeable since I'm doing the same thing for 30 mins. In other words, that's where the monotony argument would be the most prevalent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
In general solo content? I've never been bored on a Healer. I find it interesting and engaging because I'm usually focused on the encounter and story events going on, so I don't actually notice button presses at all. So in terms of MSQ and solo duties, I find Healers as fun as anything else, which is "very". I tend not to do much FATE farming (I use FATEs to level DPS Jobs sometimes because ques are longer on them, but don't find I need to do that with Healers), but I enjoyed doing Bozja and Eureka FATEs on Healers, I preferred doing ARR Relic Fates on WHM and SCH over doing them on SMN and PLD (did SCH/SMN and PLD during ShB) since it's easier to not die on the solo ones and easier to protect the NPCs on the ones like "Surprise!" north of Bronze Lake.
So I don't do it much, but when I do it on Healer Jobs, I enjoy FATE farming on them, honestly. It is pretty chill and relaxing. I do remember leveling WHM from 88-90 in Tempest and enjoyed that.
Well, good for you, but you weren't the person I was asking the question of. These are more the comments I'm referring to:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASkellington
And you've been around this forum long enough to know it happens more frequently and is often used for a reason of why Healers aren't working/designed right, even in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rilifane
But the thing I'm pointing out is "more DPS buttons" won't fix that unless Healers also do substantially more DAMAGE (at least as much as Tanks) to make them at least as attractive as Tanks to bring to runs. It won't make Healers necessary for content and won't prevent people dropping them - all identified as problems.
What is your solution FOR THOSE PROBLEMS?
No, I already said it. 10% +/- 5%. I think it should be 15% +/- 5%, but it was just a quick calculation. So you know, if you catch someone on a technicality and hammer it over and over (ignoring whether it's actually meaningful - as I've pointed out, it really isn't), and especially if you're trying to discredit them overall (you likely aren't, but other people hammering the point are), that's not a good point or something worth doing. This is like the 5th time someone's asked, and I already answered the reasoning behind it. You guys can keep asking over and over, and I'll keep saying the same thing, "rough/quick in head calculation to get a ballpark estimate + 2 minutes is negligible in terms of the total amount of time that is saved overall (the weekly cap still exists) + that's only comparing the top times not average times, so not even relevant for general analysis". I can just copy that into a .txt to paste over and over every time the question is asked, if you guys prefer, or you could just move on to discussing the actual topics of the thread, I don't care which.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
Notice whenever I catch someone in something like that, I only point it out and then move on. If someone acknowledges the error AT ALL, I don't hammer it, and often complement them for doing so. Roe made a mistake in Ty's General survey thread. Notice how I didn't bring it up over and over in every post to use as a rhetorical cudgel? Because in addition to being annoying and kind of a dick move, it doesn't actually support any argument nor does it defeat her other arguments. I said everyone makes mistakes, praised her for being open about it, and then went back to discussing the topic after a genuine /hug.
That's the mature way to deal with things like that, not incessant hammering to try and make someone look bad for making a minor mistake, especially one that isn't consequential. And I explained WHY it's not consequential, and no one yet has argued that 10 minutes in a week is a substantial amount of time that we should be concerned about, nor has anyone offered a rebuttal to how we should be using average times, not best times, anyway.
THIS, though:
...is what's worth discussing more. Though I doubt your answer would be the same as mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
My answer would be "encounter damage has decreased (compared to our healing toolkit, defense values, HP pools, and even natural healing), and oGCDs have increased in power and availability (making healing GCDs unnecessary and even most healing needs relatively trivial to address with the push of a button)". Your answer would likely be more along the lines of "because they removed Aero 3", yes? (If you play SCH, there's more to it, but if we're talking WHM, there's not). But I think it's undeniable encounter design has changed, and is at least PART of the reason for the problem.
As I've noted before WHM's DPS cadence now is roughly in the same place as it was in SB. Remember that thread where I showed WHM has more non-Glare GCDs per minute now than it had non-Stone GCDs in SB? I'm sure I could find it again if you like. Though as I pointed out there, SCH's is far, far more Broil heavy than it was then, largely owing to Broil itself having a 1.5 sec cast time (rendering Ruin 2 obsolete) and the removal of Misama (most of the other DPS tools removed were oGCDs, not GCDs, such as Bane and Shadow Flare.)
Here, I'll go ahead and post it:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
(I should also note, these are some of the only posts I've made in this subforum that actually got a decent amount of Likes/Upvotes, so I think people kind of agreed with the analysis.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
T/H/D/D vs T/3DPS - By the numbers
Printable View
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03-28-2023, 08:52 AMRenathras
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03-28-2023, 09:01 AMWaxSwIt woudn't matter if its oGCDs or GCDs, the % of healing vs dpsing would still be skewed, as I told you 3k hps is the average for a dungeon and if we count what a standard party can bring that easily goes below 1.5k hps remaining for the healer (and not even counting extreme cases like war's existence that outright makes any healing obsolete at almost any level of play), it doesn't matter if its via GCDs or oGCDs because a healer in XIV if using their kit can go above 15k hps without much proble, our kit is severely underused and when our kit is not necessary we're just gimped dps it doesn't matter if the kit is mostly GCDs or oGCDsQuote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
If this is true your math is outright wrong and you should be honest and clarify itQuote:
I was operating at the time on a difference of about a minute in a > 10 min run, which would be +/-10%.
This is not about what you do, this is a speedrun scenario, I don't give a f... if you like to spend 30m doing whatever you want and its irrelevant for the discussion, so don't push for a narrative that is not applicable to this case nor move the goals further.Quote:
I'm "handwaving" 2 minutes as small because 2 minutes is a very small unit of time compared to everything else I do.
If you look at the top runs for every dungeon outside smileton the difference is of <10 s between positions, a 2m difference is absolutely MASSIVE and is not something to be handwaved and no serious study would do that.
You're also handwaving it saying is just 2 minutes without realizing its not 2m, is 2m PER RUN, do 10 dungeons a day and that becomes 20m saved, if you do 100 a month that is 200m saved or in other words 3H and 20m, just because you think is irrelevant doesn't mean it is so stop trying to push for an already debunked argument.
That is also funnyQuote:
We're not talking an average team. Note that we're basing this "analysis" on THE FASTEST RUNS RECORDED. The average T/3D run is not 10 minutes or 8 minutes. Those are the fastest runs. Meaning the general speed run team - already more skilled than the average playerbase - is probably going to be taking longer. I'm not sure how to get the average of only non-healer comps, but the average mathematically MUST be slower than the top/best run, yes? One can argue this will apply to the standard composition run, and I would agree, but the gap may not be as pronounced, we'd have to look at said averages to know.
1st: Once again you don't have any verifiable data to back up your arguments so what you're saying is as baseless as 5-15% estimation
2nd: If we were to estimate that we could look at the damage:
https://i.gyazo.com/ad8038cd91373df1...cef7f00d02.png'
Using this chart and comparing the difference between blm and sge (most used dps in speedrun vs healer with the highest damage capabilities) we can see how at the 99 percentile sge has 6.997 dps while blm has 10.074 dps, we could then argue that blm at this level is like 1.44x a Sage
If we look at the 50 percentile, as it would be the average sge has 5325 dps while blm has 7461, at this level blm is 1.40x a sage
Their proportional difference has only shrunked by 0.04% this alone can tell us that the percentage of difference in performance between a top run of 1T3DPS and a standard top run is not much different that what we would find in an average 1T3DPS vs an average standard run
Aren't going to be much safer when the bulk of the hps is not covered by healers (and you're dismissing how extra dps allow to skip mechanics that may be problematic points for the group) and as said before the difference, since it is per run is not negligible, if you do 4 dungeons a day for 1 week that is 28 dungeons per week, saving 2 minutes per dungeon is almost an extra weekly hour of play and that time only increases as you do more and more dungeons.Quote:
In any case, the overall point is, for the bulk of the playerbase, who doesn't want to deal with PF and doesn't have a pre-formed static, standard composition runs are going to be safer and - FOR THEIR PURPOSES - a negligible time difference of their weekly playtime.
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03-28-2023, 09:23 AMRenathrasIt does if we're talking about the boredom of spamming a single button. People don't register oGCDs (except AST Draw/Play) as actions that break up their DPS rotation 1111 spam. So in that sense, using GCD heals instead is relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by WaxSw
Suppose, for the sake of argument, all oGCD heals were turned into GCD heals (instant cast, say) tomorrow. That wouldn't change the healing required. That wouldn't change the number of DPS actions. But it would directly change the number of Nukespam casts directly. For example, the top TOP group right now has a WHM that used 82 oGCD heals/abilities (if I'm counting right - I'm trying to use the casts since some things hit multiple targets, but I'm just looking at the casts; I think the 5 from Liturgy were canceling it early for the healing vs the 13 total times it was cast as opposed to the 13 being the wave hits). By comparison, using 42 Rapture, 7 Solace, 18 Misery, 28 Dia, and 294 Glare over an 18 min 39 sec fight. Just this one change alone would cut out 27% of Glare casts. The party's SGE used 72 oGCDs. vs the 249 Dosis casts, that's just under a 29% reduction in Dosis casts if those abilities were GCDs that had to be substituted in the rotation.
That is, if oGCDs were made into GCDs and used as frequently as they are now (there is A LOT of nuance that would go into such a change, so I suspect the numbers would not be exact, but this is more giving a ballpark estimate of what that change would do to your GCD rotation if you still needed to project that level of healing/mitigation), that alone would be greater than 25% reduction in the 111 spam, which would be pretty significant. With the standard 2.5 sec GCD, and ignoring that a few GCDs in those fights were heals, Afflatus abilities, and the players' DoTs, there are 24 casts in a minute, meaning 6 replacements. In reality, Glare is used less than that, as is Dosis (due to Plegma, Eukrasia Dosis, and so on existing), so 6 less Glare/Dosis per minute would be even more pronounced.
I'm not saying this as a proposal, mind you, just noting that them being oGCDs vs GCDs heavily changes how people view the abilities and healing needs of the game, as well as changes how people perceive it breaking up the 1111 spam, since oGCDs do not do so as they can all be weaved (no spamnuke has a cast time greater than 1.5 sec.)
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As for the rest...
1) It matters if it's 10 minutes or 100 minutes over the course of a 7 day week. You're talking about it saving players time. HOW MUCH TIME THAT IS is relevant. % terms kind of overstate it because "It saves 20%!" seems huge, until you realize that 20% is...2 minutes. That basically is saving you one bathroom break's worth of time, if even that. If you're running 10 in a day, you're not saving time, you're costing time. It would be a bigger time SAVER to just do a standard party DF run once per day for 5 days. You're literally arguing about the best way to efficiently BE INEFFICIENT. And even in that case, I outright compared the times that way as well (the 100 minutes that I talked about). It's a bad argument that I debunked already. It's kind of like saying "I saved 20% on this purchase!" Well, was that 20% of a $30,000 car or 20% of a $3.00 candy bag? They're both 20%, but clearly one of them is going to be seen by most people as negligible. Saving 60 cents on a candy bag isn't very substantial to most people, while saving $6,000.00 on a car kind of IS substantial to most people.
2) This is still the top/fastest runs you're looking at, not the average runs, which may not be saving even that much time.
3) I WAS honest about it, which is why I made the Edit note in the FIRST place. Because it's such a detracting issue, I've gone and changed it again. As I've noted, it isn't significant, but since that's such a sticking point, I've already corrected it BEFORE your post here.
4) You're countering the PARTY average by looking at single Jobs and making several assumptions to support it. Maybe find the average run times FOR PARTIES and use that instead?
5) Skipping mechanics IN NORMAL 4 MAN DUNGEONS? We're not talking skipping a body check in a Savage here.
6) The difference is negligible. Go out into the community - without bias or tilt in your wording - and ask them if saving 2 minutes on a dungeon run per day sounds like a lot of time saved to them. I think we both know the answer would be "That doesn't sound like a lot of time, no". If you do 4 dungeons a day, we're likely talking different things than Expert Roulette (and as people have said, older content runs can be harder, not to mention take longer - Ala Mhigo is pretty famous for wiping parties even WITH Healers in them). Further, why are you running 4 dungeons a day 7 days in a week? Your Tomes are caped at, at most, 10 Expert runs. Why would you run 18 more once you're capped? If you're talking running old content to farm glam, I doubt there's a good argument for that even being part of the conversation, but if it somehow was, we'd have to look at the speedruns vs nominal runs for those dungeons to account for differences. Even just looking at the EW dungeons, we have cases where you're saving 2 mins and others where you're saving 3 or 1-something. Not to mention if we're talking old content, we're talking unsynced runs (since chests still drop), at which point you don't even need a Tank and could just do all DPS runs, but even so, since things simply vaporize as soon as you look at them (WHM/SCH can 3 GCD shot most of the bosses in the level 50 dungeons, less if you get a crit, even AST can do this), you're really not saving much time at all at that point since you can solo the things and the real time waste is walking speed. At that point, you'd save more time with SCH Expedience/Ranged Pelaton. -
03-28-2023, 12:04 PMASkellingtonThis has jack all to do with it and you know it. Adding extra damage isn't to fix healers being unneeded in runs due to SE's garbage low healing requirements and I never claimed it to be so. Its to make them less boring for experienced healers when they have excessive down time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Don't even know why you brought this up other than to have a "gotcha" moment by saying "see? right here, you agree with me that the problem is removing down time" aka higher healing. Well no duh sherlock. We've asked for it all through out Shb. Here's the thing you keep ignoring no matter how many times its been brought to your attention:
You are never going to reduce down time enough for a veteran healer without alienating the very casuals you keep on professing that you're trying to think of when you say "no more dps, think of the casuals". They aren't looking for that excessive healing, and they aren't prepared for that excessive healing. Its why MSQ dungeons are a snoozefest. As said to you multiple times over we avocate for more dps over more healing not only because SE has proven time and time again they aren't looking to give higher healing requirements, its because in casual content it is not and never has been a requirement for healers to do dps.
But do you know what increasing healing does? It makes healing a requirement. Meaning that if Casual Timmy has a problem with healing because he isn't using all of his tools like he should be, he's MORE LIKELY to be kicked than if he had extra dps and never touched it, because unlike extra healing, extra dps isn't going to kill someone because there are next to no enrages in casual content (dungeons, raids, trial and I'm not talking about EX and savage for clarity).
The fact of the matter is you don't want more dps buttons and you're going to try to spin every single narrative you can find to argue against it.
We've been over this, multiple times. We are NEVER going to agree on this. So you may as well stop arguing the point. -
03-28-2023, 01:22 PMRenathrasDon't say things like "and you know it" when I don't, in fact, know it, because it doesn't, in fact, deal with the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by ASkellington
Adding things just so people who are "experienced" aren't bored shouldn't be the problem framing at all. If "experienced" players are bored, it should be asked "why are they bored?" If the answer is something related to them not needing to heal enough (it is), as expressed by not needing Healers for runs (as it has been expressed), that IS, in fact, "all to do with it". And you know it. If people are literally not taking Healers to runs, then adding more DPS buttons "so you won't be bored" isn't a solution SINCE YOU HAVE BEEN BENCHED. You guys seem to be saying this is happening a lot and you guys are even among those being benched! More DPS buttons doesn't bring you OFF THE BENCH, now does it? If no one is running 4 mans with Healers, more DPS buttons doesn't get you a 4 man invite, now does it? The "more DPS buttons" "solution" seems not to be solving much at all. You're still going to be bored sitting in PF unable to find a group, no matter how many DPS buttons you have.
...unless you guys have been overstating how much that's happening...?
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It's not a "gotcha".
It's me pointing out that adding DPS buttons is a band-aid that doesn't fix the underlying problem. It's treating the symptoms, not a cure to the actual issue at hand.
The issue isn't "We press 1 so much!". The issue is "WHY are you pressing 1 so much?" with the answer being "Because damage is so trivial it can be healed with a handful of oGCDs over entire runs, and in some cases (thank you, ForsakenRoe), aren't even needed at all!"
The symptom of that issue is pressing 1 so much, but that's not the issue. The issue is that FFXIV's healing is becoming such that the Trinity is breaking down, and that's the actual problem. It's not a "gotcha" to say what the actual problem is and that your solution doesn't address it. Hell, YOU said it was a problem!
And I already addressed "Casual Timmy" - the solution is more consistent but smaller spikes of healing. I'm a "Casual Timmy" and I have no problem dealing with that, nor did I in ARR and HW when that was the norm. "Casual Timmy" is just fine with that level of healing needs. On the other hand, do you know what DID cause "Casual Timmy" problems back then? The DPS rotations of Healers, and particularly Cleric Stance. The whole thing was a huge issue. Even after Cleric was removed, "experienced" players STILL complain about "Casual Timmy" not DPSing enough.
So not only does "more DPS buttons" NOT help "Casual Timmy", it also doesn't address the actual problem.
The fact of the matter is you want more dps buttons and you're going to try to spin every single narrative you can find to argue for it.
I, on the other hand, am actually talking about the real problem, what's going on, methods to fix it, methods that would address your complaints - even the ones you're now shrugging off and insisting I not talk about even though you posted about them in this thread mere days ago (or less). I'm concerned with actual solutions, which I do not think "moar DPS buttonsss!" is. And I'm not even abjectly OPPOSED TO IT. I've supported SCH having its SB kit back (that's more DPS buttons), WHM having Aero 3 returned (that's more DPS buttons), SGE having a 1-2-3 rotation (that's more DPS buttons; also Toxicon more in the rotation and a shorter Phegma CD would be more DPS GCD buttons pressed in the rotation - which again is more DPS buttons), and AST having..........whatever the hell AST players want, which may very well be MORE DPS BUTTONS.
How can you sit there and say I "don't want more dps buttons" when I've literally supported DPS buttons being added and/or the rate of non-nuke GCD buttons being pressed in the rotation to EVERY SINGLE HEALER JOB??
As to your last line: Then why are you contesting the point? If we're never going to agree, why are you arguing the point? -
03-28-2023, 07:26 PMSemirhageThere's this thing you do where you psychoanalyze people's opinions and condescendingly tell them they don't really think the things they do. It's not that I'm bored playing healers, see. It's that I clearly don't want to play a real healer, and would rather play a support instead. I'm bored of casting Glare over and over again, but that's not because Glarespam-as-downtime is bad design. It's entirely down to encounter design causing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
I've played healers in MMOs for a very, very long time. I didn't arrive at "Glarespam is boring" in an idle afternoon of spitballing, only to come to the XIV forums to see the light and be told that things right in front of my face aren't the real issue, or that the things I think aren't actually the case. It's not that Sebazy is bored of the role, it's clearly just the encounter design. She doesn't know what she's talking about, and needs you to set her analysis straight.
Nobody could possibly think that spamming one spell over and over again as the overwhelming majority of downtime activity is boring design after all. Their brains must be wrong if they think that. -
03-28-2023, 08:49 PMfulminating
Look pal everyone can see you've based your initial argument on a misapprehension and you've found yourself up that creek everyone talks about with no canoe.
On another note, I don't feel uncomfortable saying there is no room for a support in this game without a near complete combat overhaul. -
03-28-2023, 09:01 PMForsakenRoe
Bringing up 'Roe made a mistake on another thread but I didn't hammer her on it' here is, uhh, kinda the beginnings of 'hammering her on it', isn't it? And the main difference is, Roe actually said 'yep I see I was an idiot and made a mistake, my bad'.
Unrelated, just got out of a Lapis Manalis run as SGE. Buttons I pressed once or less for the whole run were:
Soteria (once, could have used Druo instead)
Taurochole (none)
Holos (none)
Pneuma/Zoe (both none)
Haima (once, could have been panhaima instead)
Panhaima (once)
Ixochole (once, and it was while the boss was not targettable for his 'ultimate cutscene move')
Pepsis (zero)
Rhizomata (zero)
Esuna (once, the tank got a doom)
Swift/Raise (once, a dps died in the last boss)
Diagnosis/Prognosis (zero each)
This is actually somehow, against all odds, even less of my kit used than Aldazaal when I ran this 'test' a couple of months back. At least there, trash packs asked me to use Krasis, Physis, Kerachole to keep up. This time it was just Kera was enough, I think we're actually regressing in HPS requirements
edit:
Here's my bars as they currently are:
And here's my bars if we were to prune everything that was 'surplus to requirements' from the list above
And two of those left are different keybinds for Krasis. Swap one of them out and bring back Ixochole (as most of the 'once used' situations Ixo could have covered) and we're still looking at one of the most barren hotbar layouts I think I've ever seen. -
03-28-2023, 09:16 PMRein_eon_OsborneDunno the actual statistic for that, but if turns out to be true, it's a zero surprise to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
Ever since 6.1 expert dungeon came out I've been eating red carpets like cookies to keep spamming healer AoE relatively unabated ('I'm not moving!!'), and rarely even need to break my usual wall pulling routines. Druochole, what's that? Lustrate, I don't know them? The collateral heals coming from things like Kera/Soil/Physis/Whispering Dawn/Assize/Asylum/CO/Star/etc simply neuters all that damage I took from 'unnecessarily' eating those red carpets. I'll be healing even less if I make the effort to step out of red carpets. -
03-28-2023, 09:52 PMForsakenRoe
Ironically, I actually ended up finding the run a little more interesting than usual. Since I was aiming to see how few abilities we actually need, I ended up Kardia-swapping a lot more than usual to avoid needing to use certain skills, and it made things kinda interesting. Since Kardia has a 5s lockout before you can re-swap it, it was like Cleric Stance in a sense, deciding who needs more HP from the procs, working out triage, etc. I had to think of things like 'ok the next aoe from the weird doll is in about 25s, The tank can heal themselves and has higher defense, I can ignore them. I can see the Bloodbath active on the melee, so I'll Kardia the RDM, then myself, and then if there's time left over I'll top the melee off' Shame all of that is overwritten instantly by 'lmao i press 3 and the HP go up' with Ixochole. Or Pneuma, or Holos, or Panhaima or Physis or Kerachole or
It's probably possible to do the dungeon with only using Kardia heals. If Soteria wasn't 90s it'd be a cakewalk to do it