Bard - they broke my job

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

I'm not sure why people are mentioning Savage as an example of no TP played. A3S, unless you clear REALLY fast AND have a NIN AND have your MCH/BRD LB3, you need some TP restorations from BRD/MCH. A4S, even with Quarantine you will still go dry without a BRD/MCH occasionally boosting up the party ... unless you're saccing the melee for some reason.

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Speaking from a MCH perspective that's gotten to A3s last phase, I've never once had to use TP turret on A1, 2 or 3. It might be because we're doing mechanics for A3s, but at that point in time we're still on schedule with beating the enrage timer.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Speaking from a MCH perspective that's gotten to A3s last phase, I've never once had to use TP turret on A1, 2 or 3. It might be because we're doing mechanics for A3s, but at that point in time we're still on schedule with beating the enrage timer.

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People should start running out roughly around 10 minutes in, give or take, with quite some time left before enrage. That's including a small amount of magnet downtime.

If your group is getting away with no TP restorations up until the end of the fight, you are either killing it really fast, or I'll be frank and say there is something done wrong from some of your TP users, either up-time wise or rotation wise. Not even having a NIN Goad strategically can cover all the TP needed.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

People should start running out roughly around 10 minutes in, give or take, with quite some time left before enrage. That's including a small amount of magnet downtime.

If your group is getting away with no TP restorations up until the end of the fight, you are either killing it really fast, or I'll be frank and say there is something done wrong from some of your TP users, either up-time wise or rotation wise. Not even having a NIN Goad strategically can cover all the TP needed.

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It's most likely extra downtime from focusing on mechanics than optimizing dps. But even then, my point was that we're still on track with beating the enrage time (give or take a minute) without any TP issues or the need for a TP regen. Granted we're not as undergeared as before, but my stance has always been that regen is necessary for progression, especially if it's going in below-ideal gear.

I'm not sure how people do a2s without tp song. I play tp song, because applying dots to many targets (80tp each) makes me out of tp roughly after two big machines (never bothered to remember their names, sorry). And I'm usually out of tp again after this at the last wave. Am I doing it wrong?

A1S is the only savage floor where no TP regen makes sense regardless of kill speed. So much down time.

I can't imagine not using any TP regen in A2S. Even in a 6 minute kill I would expect to play roughly 30s of Paeon. On my A2S that are over 2k I played Paeon twice for 8:14 kill and 3 times for both 9:14 and 9:34 kills. 7 minute kills with my previous static static also used Paeon twice. All the logs are available, but I'm not sure if they're okay to post here.

In A3S you will need Paeon for kills over 10 minutes provided everyone is pressing buttons. Your group may even need a little in add phase depending on party comp, and if they were maximizing aoe potential for Equal Concentration. I often end phase 2 with almost zero TP. But that's mainly if I know I will get a Goad sometime before final phase. For slower groups I plan on a few ticks of TP before add phase and roughly 30s going into the first embolus phase. That's enough for a lot of groups, but in the case that it isn't then perhaps a 3rd short Paeon close to the end. A3S depends a lot on group comp and player gear/skill. Even without aoe for Equal Concentration I can end add phase with almost 0 TP due to getting so many extra GCDs because of low party DPS on the adds.

A4S will also require TP regen. Different strats can change the timing of those regens as whether or not you kill certain dolls can dictate whether what times you'll have MP for regen. In my previous group we killed every doll so things were different. But now I've adjusted to groups only killing both dolls on 4th leg. Typically I'll do a few ticks going into leg 2 if the MP is there. Maybe a tick into leg 3 then foe. Maybe 1/5 a bar of MP for Paeon going into leg 4. Paeon between the two leg 4 add sets. In final phase I honestly don't remember, but I would expect to Paeon at least once in final phase. Maybe after first pentacles (especially if sac'ing).

As always, it'll depend on party comp and kill times, but you will have unhappy physical DPS/tanks on every floor except for A1S if you do not provide TP regen.

I'm not sure about others, but I know for me the problem with Ballad/Paeon/Promotion isn't that they're never needed or that they aren't powerful enough, just that outside of Savage, Thordan EX and sometimes in the Diadem there aren't many opportunities to use them efficiently. As far as I know, Scholar (and possibly tanks) is the only other job that isn't able to use its full skill-set efficiently outside of more difficult content. I'm sure I remember them saying that Scholar's new abilities and Bard songs (specifically the Warden's Paean) were designed with raiding in mind, which isn't a problem itself. But when the bulk of the abilities that define the job (Bard songs, Promotion, etc) can only be fully utilized in a small amount of less-accessible content it can be easy to see why people feel like they don't have much use for them.
(Also, note that when I say Bard songs I'm not referring to Requiem as that's pretty universal in usefulness:p)

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Originally Posted by RinchanNau

As always, it'll depend on party comp and kill times, but you will have unhappy physical DPS/tanks on every floor except for A1S if you do not provide TP regen.

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Once the group has the mechanics down and focus on optimizing dps, then I can see this being the case. But when we're focusing more on the mechanics (thus not dpsing optimally and not running into TP issues) and still beating the enrage timer and mini-dps checks, I can't really vouch for TP being needed in that scenario outside of optimizing dps/speed killing.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Once the group has the mechanics down and focus on optimizing dps, then I can see this being the case. But when we're focusing more on the mechanics (thus not dpsing optimally and not running into TP issues) and still beating the enrage timer and mini-dps checks, I can't really vouch for TP being needed in that scenario outside of optimizing dps/speed killing.

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Using mechanics as an excuse is pretty lame. That just called not being good. No matter what the occasion is you still can press buttons, you just have to dodge stuff. My progression group has needed TP promotion since progression even more so with an AST if we got arrow. I've been asked for paeon in every turn including A1S. You and your group just need to learn to press buttons while dodging it seems.

Looking at fflogs from todays kills for my group I sang paeon three times in A2S, twice in A3S and only once in A4S. So ya I would say its still necessary to bring bard with you to raids. Especially when you dont run with a ninja.

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Originally Posted by Haxetc

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Yes well, that's exactly what I said. I don't see the point in you repeating what I said unless you just wanted to say we're not good.

If our group isn't optimizing Dps, but we're still making Dps checks, tp regen isn't nessescarly needed is what I'm saying.

As machinist I run out of tp in every turn. The only turn where it's not a problem is a1 since jumps give a good breathing room to naturally regen tp + invo.

A2 is extremely tp taxing for machinist by the time the widows spawns I run full tp promotion into the next wave. If you don't have tp issues in a2 I would assume u simply don't aoe :/ (my last night parse was roughly 1.5k)

A3 is fine till after the adds phase. You and your melees should start to have tp issues after the hand that grabs the healers die, here I run promotion till the next invo is up.

A4 pretty much the last phase is huge tp drain especially if you mess time ur invigorate earlier. You should time it that u have invo up right after ur first Rez. Otherwise you will need tp promotion. Your melees should call out for tp eventually during the last phase as well.

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Originally Posted by vp_cmc

I'm not sure how people do a2s without tp song. I play tp song, because applying dots to many targets (80tp each) makes me out of tp roughly after two big machines (never bothered to remember their names, sorry). And I'm usually out of tp again after this at the last wave. Am I doing it wrong?

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Hmmm never had to sing paeon in A2S so far(other than maybe a death). But the DRG is driving with the monk and myself only TP users - and yes I apply at least one dot to most smaller targets and keep both up on the bigger ones. Otherwise rain of death is my primary aoe there. I might in some cases go wide volley but so far the multi doting and rain of death procs seem more efficient - especially when you have things to burst down.

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Originally Posted by ruskie

Hmmm never had to sing paeon in A2S so far(other than maybe a death). But the DRG is driving with the monk and myself only TP users - and yes I apply at least one dot to most smaller targets and keep both up on the bigger ones. Otherwise rain of death is my primary aoe there. I might in some cases go wide volley but so far the multi doting and rain of death procs seem more efficient - especially when you have things to burst down.

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I don't know about DRG, but I have cleared A2S like MNK a lot of time and If my BRD/MCH does not sing TP, my DPS drop to ~1.6k-1.7k aprox, with TP song my DPS looks like ~1.9k-2k aprox. I'm using Invigorate and Purification asap. It's easy to understand, Rockbreaker has 130 potency, but it costs 120 TP, It's pretty expensive, but it's a potency gain with 2 or more targets.

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Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir

I don't know about DRG, but I have cleared A2S like MNK a lot of time and If my BRD/MCH does not sing TP, my DPS drop to ~1.6k-1.7k aprox, with TP song my DPS looks like ~1.9k-2k aprox. I'm using Invigorate and Purification asap. It's easy to understand, Rockbreaker has 130 potency, but it costs 120 TP, It's pretty expensive, but it's a potency gain with 2 or more targets.

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Hmm I'll chat with our monk about this then. Might be worth it. But already need to sing mage's for healers at certain ponits and foe overall when I can.

I always have to sing both Paeon and Ballad in A2S. I don't know if it's the most efficient use, but in Wave 6 when it's just the Widow left I'll use Battle Voice to play Paeon first to get everyone's TP topped a bit and then swap to Ballad to top the healers. That's generally the only time I'll have to use anything other than Foes in the large AOE phases, so it seems like a good use of BV.

i think is based on having a nin or not....if your setup has a nin , TP song is rarely needed.

MP is rare too , only when we are learning and ppl die , but outside that is FoE 95% of the time :o , on last wave of A2s but even that by the time i cast it and BV , the boss is almost dead.... sometimes cast it to play safe

Your NIN will still need TP in A2S. Honestly, having a NIN Goad me in A2 wouldn't really reduce the amount of Paeon I play. If anything it would just mean that I use more Quick Nock with the additional resources being made available to me.

I'm curious about the damage output of BRDs that aren't playing any Paeon in A2. I would almost say that it is probably impossible to be pressing your GCDs without very significant delays in A2S if you never run out of TP with no regen.

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Originally Posted by RinchanNau

Your NIN will still need TP in A2S. Honestly, having a NIN Goad me in A2 wouldn't really reduce the amount of Paeon I play. If anything it would just mean that I use more Quick Nock with the additional resources being made available to me.

I'm curious about the damage output of BRDs that aren't playing any Paeon in A2. I would almost say that it is probably impossible to be pressing your GCDs without very significant delays in A2S if you never run out of TP with no regen.

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Well you would need to account for ballad singing as well. My best so far was near 1.5k with the monk being near 1.6k. But ballad does happen a couple of times.

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Originally Posted by ruskie

Well you would need to account for ballad singing as well. My best so far was near 1.5k with the monk being near 1.6k. But ballad does happen a couple of times.

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I would say that your DPS is looking ok but the MNK should be able to push out another 150-200 DPS if he is at i205+ and gets paeon.

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Originally Posted by ruskie

Well you would need to account for ballad singing as well. My best so far was near 1.5k with the monk being near 1.6k. But ballad does happen a couple of times.

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If your MNK has ilv ~206-210 gear, 1.6k DPS is low, when I'm around 1.6k DPS is just because my BRD wanna be a DPS, asking Goad and using just Foe. We lose DPS overall when my BRD does not sing TP, We run with 2 WARs, MNK and NIN.

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Originally Posted by Krindor

I would say that your DPS is looking ok but the MNK should be able to push out another 150-200 DPS if he is at i205+ and gets paeon.

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Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir

If your MNK has ilv ~206-210 gear, 1.6k DPS is low, when I'm around 1.6k DPS is just because my BRD wanna be a DPS, asking Goad and using just Foe. We lose DPS overall when my BRD does not sing TP, We run with 2 WARs, MNK and NIN.

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Hmm thanks for the input. I'll see and check our data how it's going but did ask him and he said he is tightly controlling TP use and one mess up can cause him to lose too much.
We have a PLD, DRK, DRG(driver), MNK, BLM, BRD, SCH, WHM. So no goad to pass around.

Will check and compare with others to see what we can both do to adjust and improve.

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Originally Posted by ruskie

Hmm thanks for the input. I'll see and check our data how it's going but did ask him and he said he is tightly controlling TP use and one mess up can cause him to lose too much.
We have a PLD, DRK, DRG(driver), MNK, BLM, BRD, SCH, WHM. So no goad to pass around.

Will check and compare with others to see what we can both do to adjust and improve.

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Its pretty easy to understand, more TP more Rockbreaker and more DPS.

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Originally Posted by Krindor

I would say that your DPS is looking ok but the MNK should be able to push out another 150-200 DPS if he is at i205+ and gets paeon.

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I'm not so sure about that. Given the gear the goal should be 1800-2200 for a BRD. MNK can be in a similar range as well. In addition it can help others besides those two. I have no idea what the party comp is. Most groups have a WAR. While WAR has a lot of TP to work with via Equilibrium they can certainly also make use of the additional resources to output more DPS in A2.

Regardless of DPS goals you should not be able to go 6+ minutes in A2S with zero TP regen needed if you're pressing your GCDs normally. Single target you should only be lasting 3:30 to maaaaybe 4:30 with really low skill speed. So to last even longer on multiple targets where you should be doing a lot of multi dotting does not make sense.

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Originally Posted by RinchanNau

Given the gear the goal should be 1800-2200 for a BRD.

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1800+ is top 40 in fflogs among bards.
2200+ is only 1 there

It's a nice goal, but I think it's not wise to expect this from random members

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Originally Posted by vp_cmc

1800+ is top 40 in fflogs among bards.
2200+ is only 1 there

It's a nice goal, but I think it's not wise to expect this from random members

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Like I said. It's a goal. You should strive to improve each week. It won't always work out, but I think there is fun to be had in trying to outdo yourself each time.

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Originally Posted by RinchanNau

Like I said. It's a goal. You should strive to improve each week. It won't always work out, but I think there is fun to be had in trying to outdo yourself each time.

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Agree with you on that hehe. It is fun to try and improve yourself.

Only a fool looks at fflogs for pure dps considering all the dps padding thats done. All top numbers done are pure dps chasing and padding while manipulating battle to the persons favor. Horrible people use fflog tops as guidelines for dps

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Originally Posted by kalasnikov

Only a fool looks at fflogs for pure dps considering all the dps padding thats done. All top numbers done are pure dps chasing and padding while manipulating battle to the persons favor. Horrible people use fflog tops as guidelines for dps

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Yup. My best DPS on thordan ex there is in a party with a MCH+DRG and I guess if I had a NIN it would be higher as well along with an AST for a balance and other stuff. So many ways to pad hehe. I do find them handy to see what I might be doing wrong or where I might improve and such though.

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Originally Posted by kalasnikov

Only a fool looks at fflogs for pure dps considering all the dps padding thats done. All top numbers done are pure dps chasing and padding while manipulating battle to the persons favor. Horrible people use fflog tops as guidelines for dps

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All top numbers? I don't agree at all. Sure. Some are heavily catered, but plenty are not. It's possible to get very close to the top with zero catered strats provided you have a DRG. On A2 it is achievable with no DRG due to how important multi dotting, rain of death, and vuln stacks are. Perhaps you won't reach #1 without certain strats and a favorable party composition, but you can aim high instead of writing off all top parses as fluff.

In addition, these logs are useful because unlike previous leaderboards for FFXIV they are more than a number. You can see what abilities people use at what times. You can analyze their openers. There's a lot of useful information in there to help you improve.

What are the group kill times for these 2200 dps bards in A2S?

meh, you need a kill of 7.3 mins ish on a2s to get similar numbers. an astro solo healing maybe (and obviously buffing pt). and 2 smn or smn+blm+monk combo.

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Originally Posted by lulunami

What are the group kill times for these 2200 dps bards in A2S?

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Currently the only one on fflogs with 2200 DPS killed it in 7 min 51 sec.

A2S doesn't need that much catering, AST helps a ton and I wouldn't be #1 without cards honestly, but your group's overall DPS can influence your own DPS because the major AoE waves could get melted down real quick with an amazing group. I made a lot of mistakes that could've been fixed up but as long as you're aoeing/multidotting during cooldown spikes you're already on your way.
It's really a lot of group strategy and CD timing/TP upkeep. I think I gain a lot from goad in A2, but I've had 2k runs where I did jack during the 4 jagd dolls just letting my TP trickle up while I kept up my dots and spammed RoD.

I have the video of the 2200 clear here but my upload speed is quite bad for FFXIV recording.

I am making a post about all the things I am unhappy with about this game and I hope you don't mind if I use this thread.

Hi guys, I'm rather new-ish to Bard, and like many others here, I loved the class until I got WM. Once I capped, WM left me so disgusted that I pretty much dropped Bard and tried out other classes. Two months later, I had a strong urge to return to Bard, and I found that WM really wasn't that bad. I actually loved the class again. Maybe I was just playing Bard incorrectly as a whole before.

Anyway, I came in here for advice since I can't find a recent guide thread to post in, like what all the other classes have.

In dungeons when facing packs of mobs, what should be my priority? Would it be more effective to focus down a single mob while throwing out the occasional Rain of Death, or should I be going around tagging 2-3 mobs with Windbite/Venomous Bite and spam the hell out of Quick Nock/Rain of Death resets, while using single target non-global CDs whenever possible? I've been using the second method, and while I think it seems effective (although REALLY messy), I've gotten strange reactions from party members about it. That and I may end up ripping aggro off the tank, especially if I have all my buffs up. (Thankfully Quelling Strikes is there to save me.)

Also, how do you guys manage using your buffs? I think my starting rotation is like...
Straight Shot -> Bloodletter/Rain of Death -> Windbite -> Empryeal Arrow -> Venomous Bite -> Heavy Shot/Quick Nock/Iron Jaws/Straight Shot/off globals as needed.

But how should I weave in Raging Strikes/Hawk's Eye/Internal Release/Blood for Blood? Do I Straight Shot -> DoTs, then cast all four at once before unloading everything else, or do I try weaving them in one at a time between each global skill CD? Also, which buff order would be the most effective?

Then there's Quick Nock VS Wide Volley. What are the advantages/disadvantages of both? Right now I favor Quick Nock purely because of its lower TP cost, but does Wide Volley's extra range really make that much of a difference to justify the extra 20 TP per use?

Oh, and one last thing. Does Barrage work on Sidewinder, or should I always use it for Empryeal?

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

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Quick Nock > Wide Volley literally all the time unless you are:
Too lazy to position yourself
Running towards a mob and not in position yet
Literally no other reasons to use Wide Volley over QN

That second method of AOEing (spreading DOTs, then reapplying with IJ when necessary and spamming RoD) is what I do for <4 mobs, usually. Any greater and I just stick to QN spam (you could honestly probably do this with up to five mobs and not have any dots drop but I'm lazy) and Flaming Arrow. Don't forget that.

As for cooldown usage... I usually just pop them all at once, then do my rotation. If you decide to weave them in, make sure you refresh your dots, as they take a "snapshot" of all your buff damage when you apply them (so if I have all my buffs up and get up my dots, they'll all be overpowered for their duration, or until I reapply them). So if you do SS -> dots, make sure you use IJ or reapply them after you get your buffs up.
Order would probably be Longest CD -> Shortest CD (can't remember where I have my buffs right now, I always press them in a particular order but I can't remember which buff is keybound to which button..it's all muscle memory for me at this point).

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Oh, and one last thing. Does Barrage work on Sidewinder, or should I always use it for Empryeal?

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Only works on weaponskills (non crit) so it would not work on Sidewinder. Always use it with EA as soon as you get it.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

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Your opener should be pre-buffing, I won't detail the entire thing but the general rule is that you want to get up a lot of buffs for your first set of dots, and clip midway through their duration (9s) to reapply a second set of fully buffed dots. off-GCD damage priority should be:
Bloodletter >>> Misery's End > EA > Flaming Arrow > Sidewinder > Repel > Blunt.

No reason to use WV over QN if the range isn't relevant, and for big packs of mobs it depends on the speed of your DPS and such. DoTs are king for sustainability which is usually what you need, and depending on how much you need to sustain TP is what decides how many mobs you wanna dot up. For using CDs on AoE you generally wanna hold your buffs until you've already gotten all your dots up with the exception of IR.

There are times where you may want to favor Flaming Arrow and Sidewinder over other oGCD. And that would be if your buffs will otherwise fall off before you use Flaming Arrow and Sidewinder.

But for the most part the order listed above is pretty accurate.

still salty, Se make my salt go away.

I'm actually sort of sitting here wondering if Minuet's damage boost actually makes your weaponskills do more damage than if you had Minuet turned off and thus had the ability to auto-attack, especially in a single target scenario. Because to me, it kind of feels like Minuet's damage boost only barely covers the loss of auto-attack damage. Although I don't know if Minuet actually boosts the damage of off-GCD skills like Misery's End, Sidewinder, and Flaming Arrow either.

If Minuet's damage boost only really covers the loss of auto-attack, then are Bards supposed to 'minuet dance' in single target situations, turning it on just to use Emperyal and Iron Jaws (and to apply DoTs) and then turning it back off after? If they are, then isn't that kinda bad design, because it'd basically imply that Minuet doesn't really add anything beneficial and only exists to restrict gameplay.

(Minuet is assumed to be left on for multi-target situations because auto-attacking doesn't attack multiple enemies at once.)