Tales from Duty Finder: Some make you laugh, some make you cry. Let's vent.

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Originally Posted by Frizze

I'm a believer that if you que for the higher level group content then there's a certain minimum skill floor you should be able to meet(the basics of your job). In a group of friends you can be a thunder mage, an auto-attack tank, or whatever other ridiculous thing you want. The game doesn't do a great job of teaching everything(the hall of the intermediate idea that's been tossed around repeatedly would be a good start)

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Lol Speaking of Cure 3 I had a whm one time miss use it. At 1st I hadn't noticed it as I was on a dps, but after the 2nd "wait I have no mp" slow downs I wondered why they were running out of mp so dang fast with a tank that was using their CDs and not making the low leveled dungeon a speed pull. Which made me watch them and that's how I learned that instead of using either Medica they'd use Cure 3 and only get the tank most of the time. So I did tell them to stop using it because it's range sucks for aoe but they didn't listen. Tank almost died on the last boss because the whm had no mp and also didn't know that lucid is also a mp refresh. Or have an ether on them. Thankfully the other dps or myself lbed the boss and we finished the run. Yes, it's also bad for mp management but there was so much to try to correct with that healer that I'd of been fine if they had just stopped trying to use it for aoe heals. We really do need an intermediate hall.

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Not sure how many who need it would use it if it wasn't required, but it's something to consider. And believe it or not, another MMO I've played has zip other than a basic "here's how to walk and open doors" kind of tutorial when you start the game. No Hall of the Novice or Guildhest equivalent. Nothing like WoW's class training thing. The level of WTF is sometimes pretty epic in instanced group dungeons, and some players use games like FFXIV to point out examples of mechanisms for helping players to learn their roles. Yet still, even it something was added, there would be those who wouldn't use it and just march on to their own drum... :p

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Originally Posted by aesteval

How long does the sprout status last now?

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My new adventurer status ended inbetween the final quest of post-Heavensward and the first of Stormblood.

To be exact, you pick up the Stormblood quest from the same person that completed the previous one, but I was ready to log out for the night, so instead I left the quest unstarted and warped to a different area - at which point I got the "you are no longer a new adventurer, and have left the Novice Network" message.

I think there is a time requirement as well as (not instead of) reaching that story point - I have in mind 168 hours but I'm not certain where I got that from.

50/60 roulette put me in snowcloak and with another tank that doesn't use any defensive cooldowns. Are people just allergic to them? If you are going to make a big pull, wall to wall, just use them. I already had Selene out (because Snowcloak) so I couldn't even get a regen going. Not that it really would have helped since the tank sucked up three lustrates and alternating shield/physic was a lost cause. Living dead isn't going to help if you are taking more damage than I can heal in 2.5 seconds.
I get applauded by one of the red mages for the wipe so I've lost all care . I switch back to Selene since the tank started doing single pulls. First boss, fine, second boss, the new red mage gets yelled at for attacking the spriggans despite them saying they were new. I pointed that out to no comment. Somewhere along the line the tank decided to emote disappointment at me because I guess they weren't at 100% health at all time; Selene was busy healing the new red mage standing in the blizzard areas. Then randomly a big pull and I was lagging behind so the tank dies. I could have saved the situation if I had just moved a bit quicker or the tank could have just used some cooldowns. Last boss went fine, both red mages stand outside the crystal. Fenris goes after the red mage with the most enmity (the not new one) and Fenris dies right after. The tank had already left, I give a commendation to the new red mage and just leave.
I think from now on I'm just not going to DPS if the tank uses no cooldowns because that's a clear cry for the tank to be babysat.

Did alliance roulette after and got in a party with a nice FC who I'll visit later since my alt is on their server. the tank also used cooldowns even if they didn't need them.

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Originally Posted by DevonEllwood

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I’m sorry, but why on Earth were you using Selene if you needed extra healing juice? I can’t think of anything in snowcloak that justifies Selene over Eos and especially not if you’re struggling to heal. With eos you would have had whispering dawn and illumination to support you.

Because I've always have and never had a problem there. The only reason I was struggling to heal was because of an unexpected no cooldowwon tank. lesson learned though. Sorry if that wasn't clear I really have a hard time putting thoughts to words and end up skipping details when writing.

Q'd up for Trials as DRK today and got Shiva.

The other tank, a Warrior, has Defiance up and has some 11.9k and I've only got like 8-9k so I throw Darkside on and leave Grit off and I assume I'm supposed to be OT.

We get to the Golems phase, and the WAR runs around and grabs all the Golems despite me trying to pick up the golems myself. I was out of MP so I wasn't able to turn Grit on (my mistake), and so I needed a Syphon Strike. By the time I get the Syphon Strike out, the MT is dead and so I provoke Shiva, and start tanking her myself, and the Golems are about dead so I just ignore them for now.

We get past the Diamond Dust just fine, because thankfully the DPS weren't sleeping on the job. The MT gets up, and while weakened tries to fight me for aggro on Shiva. I'm thinking "dude, you're weakened, just act as a gimp DPS and I'll handle this" but nope. He kept Defiance up and he kept trying to play aggro war with me.

But of course, with what is that again, -20% penalty to DPS, there's no way he was going to outdo me, and I kept her the rest of the fight. And of course, DPS couldn't dodge crap because 2-3 of them died. We still won, though.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Lol Speaking of Cure 3 I had a whm one time miss use it. At 1st I hadn't noticed it as I was on a dps, but after the 2nd "wait I have no mp" slow downs I wondered why they were running out of mp so dang fast with a tank that was using their CDs and not making the low leveled dungeon a speed pull. Which made me watch them and that's how I learned that instead of using either Medica they'd use Cure 3 and only get the tank most of the time. So I did tell them to stop using it because it's range sucks for aoe but they didn't listen. Tank almost died on the last boss because the whm had no mp and also didn't know that lucid is also a mp refresh. Or have an ether on them. Thankfully the other dps or myself lbed the boss and we finished the run. Yes, it's also bad for mp management but there was so much to try to correct with that healer that I'd of been fine if they had just stopped trying to use it for aoe heals. We really do need an intermediate hall.

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We do not need an "intermediate heal" what we do need is player base to read the descriptions of abilities and have people talk to each other more. If only the tank is taking damage, if geared appropriately cure I is enough while cure II often overheals. This does not apply to all level ranges and you may need to cast 2 cure II's back to back but cure II is generally more then needed most of the time anyway. Another issue is how you presented the issue, if all you said "stop using it aoe sucks" .. that is not addressing the core issue, the mp use. You should of said something of the like of "cure II heals more then cure III on one person and costs less mp per cast, you will not be running out of mp if you use cure II." If they do not listen or do not say anything, this is where it should be considered of kicking them, this is the only way people learn.

Got Qarn Temple last week in a roulette with a friend as a tank. Other players (healer + dps) were both sprouts. No problem so far, I go slow, and arriving at the first boss I take some time to explain the mechanics.

Upon pulling, both sprouts just ignore everything I said and died, and we both proceed to die as well for lack of healing. Bleh. Nevermind, it's their first time, I'll just explain again in more details. Still not a word from them after explaining a second time, so I assume they got it and pull. Exact same thing and they both ignore the pads and die and we wipe. Starting to be a bit frustrated, I explain yet again a 3rd time, and ask if anyone has any questions. Still silence. 3rd time's the charm, right? Nope, same thing happens, we wipe again. After a 4th wipe, we end up voting abandon and back out.

I can only assume they were either a) trolling, b) speaking a different language, c) bots (but they didn't move like bots though)

I just queue'd up for 70 roulette as whm and got Ala Mhigo, didn't pay much attn to others gear until after the first boss. I noticed the tank was taking an extraordinary amount of damage but its nothing I can't handle and was still able to dps when I wasn't heal bombing him to keep him alive. blm was alternating between fire 3 and blizz 3, brd not using songs, dots or aoes.

We get to the first boss and it took forever to kill so after we were done I checked the rest of my pt. lvl 64-66 gear with a couple 67 and 68 here and there. I promptly left the dungeon.

And before anyone asks, because people tend to think this is an excuse no matter how high their level, no none of them were sprouts.

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

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Yeah, 64-66 gear in a Level 70 dungeon, there is NO excuse for this because the Lv70 job quest rewards the whole left side except belt of 290 Lv70 gear which is plenty good enough for Ala Mihgo, though you probably want at least Lv67-69 jewelry.

Almost sounds like we're getting a rush of people leveling characters to eventually use as bots. Did they have sensible names?

Raid roulette gave me Sigma 2.0 on tank. I'll just leave a "slightly" modified transcript of the white mage's chat because inconsistent forum rules.

Sect? (addressing the cohealer AST, they turned on Noct after)
mechanics please (Salty WHM, red mage not understanding the paint mechanic yet)
dude
mechanics please
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Offtank says "shut up pls"
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The kicker is the next line from the salty WHM: "Fudge off"
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Offtank just response with "Anger management"

I'm not sure who stole the WHM's ice cream but that was pretty rude of him to just be uh... "unkind" to the new RDM. There I think this is forum safe.

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Originally Posted by Hamada

Another issue is how you presented the issue, if all you said "stop using it aoe sucks" .. that is not addressing the core issue, the mp use. You should of said something of the like of "cure II heals more then cure III on one person and costs less mp per cast, you will not be running out of mp if you use cure II." If they do not listen or do not say anything, this is where it should be considered of kicking them, this is the only way people learn.

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I was slow at typing and people already don't read their tool tips. They also don't ask questions either. Anyway I told them the aoe wasn't big enough to hit everyone unless they were grouped up. If I remember correctly the other dps was caster/ranged and they were casting it on the tank. The 2nd need mp stop happened after the 2nd boss and with like 2 trash packs left before the final. I was also focused on doing mechanics and you know dpsing.

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Originally Posted by tinythinker

Not sure how many who need it would use it if it wasn't required, but it's something to consider.

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So either make it mandatory or give it a reward that makes it hard to refuse(or both). Hall of the Novice gives a set of armor(maybe a good enough incentive) and an exp ring(the reason i recommend it to new people). You could do another set of gear(maybe glamour gear?) and an exp bracelet that goes up to 60... maybe an extra fantasia too? Itd be easy to insert into the story - toward the end of ARR the alliance comes up with a big complicated plan with a lot of moving parts intended to give you a chance to stop the Ultimate Weapon. The key to the whole plan is you performing a set of military-style objectives(which isnt a thing youve done a ton of). General Raubahn could easily say you need to complete some further training before the mission starts. It would also be kinda funny(in a sadistic way) if Aurum Vale was the highest level content you could do without completing it. I would also make it something that using a jump potion doesnt set as completed. So if your first class is skipping ahead you still need to go back and show the general that you belong on the battlefield.

Eh, trust me, WoW tried something like that with the Silver Challenge thingie, I forget what it was called, but you had to complete the Silver rank before you were permitted to do Heroic Dungeons in Warlords.

That went about as good as anybody could have expected -- there was lots of whining from legit people who struggled with it (because some of it wasn't that well designed), and lazy people passed it, and then went on to absolutely suck in Heroic Dungeons because they had no intention of actually playing well whatsoever because they're lazy. And of course, they still ignored mechanics. They played just well enough to pass the silver challenge, but didn't read up on bosses, and continually died to stupid stuff.

So TL; DR: It didn't work very well and Blizz scrapped the requirement in the next expansion.

They instead went with a system that doesn't use the DF to force people to manually group up, and that's how we got that cancer that is Raider.io where now instead of people sucking in random dungeons, we now got rampant elitism and people scrutinizing over your gear, your history, etc by some 3rd party website and addon.

I've been running into tank after tank, usually PLDs, that refuse to use their actual tank stance, and don't seem to have any issues with losing aggro to both DPS and dying constantly. Every tank wants to be a DPS, and it's like they expect the healer to tank.

I feel like I missed a memo when I was away for a few months that said Shield Oath, Defiance, and Grit weren't The Meta anymore and using them gets you kicked or something.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

I feel like I missed a memo when I was away for a few months that said Shield Oath, Defiance, and Grit weren't The Meta anymore and using them gets you kicked or something.

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Blame the Endgame gotta GOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGO mentality for that.

They get used to doing that and they want to try it in lower level dungeons too, even though that's just not feasible with the toolkit/gear that they have.

The way I feel, if I'm playing a tank and someone dares grumble at me for using tank stance in a dungeon, well they can wait 10+ minutes on another tank and I'll get an instaqueue. They can just suck it up if they don't like it.

People grumbling at me for using tank stance in dungeons usually results in my letting them have aggro, while saying something along the lines of "Look what happens when the tank doesn't tank, but hey, don't complain, this is what you wanted after all"

A rather vindictive response perhaps, but it would have happened anyway if they had their way so might as well speed up the inevitable to get it over with rather than waste time trying to prevent it.

Besides, i would rather be kicked and be able to que up again immediately than leave of my own accord and eat the 30 minute penalty because other members of the party are being silly.

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Originally Posted by Frizze

So either make it mandatory or give it a reward that makes it hard to refuse(or both). Hall of the Novice gives a set of armor(maybe a good enough incentive) and an exp ring(the reason i recommend it to new people). You could do another set of gear(maybe glamour gear?) and an exp bracelet that goes up to 60... maybe an extra fantasia too?

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Eh, trust me, WoW tried something like that... went about as good as anybody could have expected -- there was lots of whining from legit people who struggled with it (because some of it wasn't that well designed), and lazy people passed it, and then went on to absolutely suck in Heroic Dungeons because they had no intention of actually playing well

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It might help people who are legitimately confused or stuck (yes, some of us can get that confused or stuck), especially if strongly it's incentivized but optional, but many people will play how they want. Isn't the situation now in WoW that if you just want to do instanced content for stories you can nearly sleep through normal mode, with challenge being gated in other ways (like keys and the aforementioned Raider.io)? Anyway, I'm for helping people who want & need help (like moi) but not sure how to fairly and accurately separate the "trying but seriously struggling" from "carry me I need a birb" groups with any mechanism implemented by SE. I figured that's one of the reasons why the they have well-compensated roulettes.

I hate how they did Mythic Dungeons in WoW, because it makes it nearly impossible for the casual, guild-less player to ever see content regardless of his or her personal skill. You could have maybe 5 clears to your name and even though you play perfectly, nobody wants you, kinda like how the Credit Score system works IRL. No Experience = You're Terrible regardless of your actual skill. So until or unless you get a guild and get people to take you into quite a number of M+ runs, then MAYBE people might think you are good enough.

The Key system very strongly punishes people for wiping and that's not very good when you want participation, when you want people to be able to do the content without a guild. I just feel it is poorly designed, and it shouldn't be the only non-raiding content in the game to actually get gear for your character. I wish we could just go back to MoP and Badges of Valor.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Blame the Endgame gotta GOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGO mentality for that.

They get used to doing that and they want to try it in lower level dungeons too, even though that's just not feasible with the toolkit/gear that they have.

The way I feel, if I'm playing a tank and someone dares grumble at me for using tank stance in a dungeon, well they can wait 10+ minutes on another tank and I'll get an instaqueue. They can just suck it up if they don't like it.

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In endgame the 'gotta go' mentality is 'gotta beat enrage so we don't have to do all this over again' which I don't think is something to criticize.

While I would never pressure a random pug tank to leave tank stance in a dungeon I think it's equally rude to expect someone to sit there in tank stance for the entire dungeon if them leaving tank stance isn't going to cause any crazy strain on the healer. I wouldn't mega-pull in Deliverance (I tank most trash in Defiance really) but if soneone has something to say about me swapping to Deliverance on bosses they can take their comments and go fly a kite. There is no reason to tank anything single-target in tank stance in a dungeon, you're just needlessly gimping the group's damage.

I understand some tanks have issues holding threat outside of their tank stance (though I don't really know how) but those tanks are not likely the same tanks doing Savage (and adopting that 'gogogo' mentality you talk about) since if you can't hold hate in Savage you'll just get kicked.

I had a fun time in leveling roulette this morning. Went on PLD, got Brayflox with an AST, a DRG and a MCH. Everything is going well enough. The AST pulls the first boss with a Combust but to be fair I stopped at the door to click on a food buff.

After the second boss things get interesting. The AST runs over to me with enemies trailing them, I pull them off assuming it was a mistake. We down the pack we were working on as well as the ones the AST pulled then move on to the ones right by the gateway to the Salamander boss.

I watch the AST run off and pull a group. Oh, so this wasn't accidental. I decide to stick to my guns. The DRG and I keep working on our enemies with the AST and MCH (both from the same server too) kite the other enemies around. AST goes down and I flash them on to me but I'm okay because I brought potions.

Throughout the salamander boss the AST gets saltier and saltier in chat. He calls me a "whiny b****" and some other fun words. I tell him if he wants to decide what groups we fight he shoukd play a tank. It's not like if he had said "I could really use a full clear for the exp if you don't mind" that I wouldn't have obliged him.

The AST and MCH proceed to pull the same things on the way to the boss room. The AST tells me what an awful tank I am (yeah sure, I'm missing out on all that sweet level 34 PLD optimization) and devolves into sexist and racist attacks.

I thought of leaving but didn't want to leave the DRG with them so I stuck it out. Reported them really quick once I got out though, as they deserved. It's like people don't realize all that chat is accessible to GMs.

If you read this stupid AST or their MCH friend I hope you enjoy your bans o/

Just something interesting and mildly humorous...

I've noticed since switching to Leviathan that a number of people raging on others in alliance runs are from my old server Hyperion and I've got to say holy crap. I never knew there was such an elitist rage from one server until mentor roulette threw me into 2 Rabanastre runs and people just slam after slam and throw epeens on the table.

Later that day in my new fc as a whole team we ran Lighthouse and our SAM had a phone call so he sat out. LOL ofc a Hyperion player is like you need to kick the bad samurai out of your pt whose standing outside - and then I tell them he's on the phone. I get the epeen comment of the day, I can play the game eyes closed and on the phone. To which I respond meh Hyperion lol cause it's so hilarious to see my old home is the douche-bag server of the century. Later I die to the last boss, I'm not that great with skip-to-my-loo lol. And the same person starts giving me shit about dying. Wow - I gotta say I'm glad that I left. No offense to the other Hyperion folks on here just its an eyeopener on the other side.

My alt's newly-signed-up machinist got Copperbell Mines. The tank (gladiator-or-paladin) was wearing Lv32 dungeon gear but seemed very uncertain about where to go - to the point I wondered if they were borrowing a friend's account and hadn't played the dungeon before - they didn't use Flash or attack multiple enemies, and I think they may have been friends with the dragoon who kept running ahead and setting 'attack first' markers. (At least I assume it was the dragoon throughout the dungeon, because the tank took a left turn in the water caves while the dragoon went right, and then the enemies near the dragoon had markers.) Anyway.

We got up to the ichorous ire fight, and the tank set off the bomb but stayed in the blast radius and died. I saw it coming, so ran in after to draw the four blobs with a Spread Shot and kite them around.... except the dragoon decided to attack some of them and break up the group. Anyway, the tank came back and they did somehow get enmity back, set up the next bomb - and again died in the blast. Fortunately that was the point where you can start damaging the small blobs, so that was the end of it.

Things were generally a bit messy but we got to the final boss. Perhaps I'm wrong here, but I've never seen anyone bother with attacking the smaller 'stone servants' and the boss is dead before they can finish digging through the wall, so when it appeared I figured I'd put a "do not attack" marker on it. Looked back a few seconds later, the marker has been replaced with a {1} and the dragoon is attacking it. :/ Though they did at least get the message when I changed it back again.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Things were generally a bit messy but we got to the final boss. Perhaps I'm wrong here, but I've never seen anyone bother with attacking the smaller 'stone servants' and the boss is dead before they can finish digging through the wall, so when it appeared I figured I'd put a "do not attack" marker on it. Looked back a few seconds later, the marker has been replaced with a {1} and the dragoon is attacking it. :/ Though they did at least get the message when I changed it back again.

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To be fair, this is technically how it is supposed to be done. Ignoring the adds breaking the second wall would swarm you with too many adds to survive, and was basically grounds for a wipe. I almost wish we still had to do that, to be honest, because all Copperbell is doing now is teaching people to ignore mechanics.

To the lighthouse party I had last night, you have coined the new term of potatoland princesses for our group. Thank you XD

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

In endgame the 'gotta go' mentality is 'gotta beat enrage so we don't have to do all this over again' which I don't think is something to criticize.

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I'm not criticizing the players for doing something they must do, I'm more criticizing the game design, which causes people to act like that in the first place. They design Endgame to be "GOGOGOGOGO" and then some players will take that mentality and apply it to the entire game. It's a source of toxic behavior I feel we don't need. There's surely gotta be better ways to introduce challenge than slapping an enrage on it.

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While I would never pressure a random pug tank to leave tank stance in a dungeon I think it's equally rude to expect someone to sit there in tank stance for the entire dungeon if them leaving tank stance isn't going to cause any crazy strain on the healer. I wouldn't mega-pull in Deliverance (I tank most trash in Defiance really) but if soneone has something to say about me swapping to Deliverance on bosses they can take their comments and go fly a kite. There is no reason to tank anything single-target in tank stance in a dungeon, you're just needlessly gimping the group's damage.

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Depends on the level range and your gear level and whether or not you are synch'd. I don't want to see a Warrior or a DRK trying to tank a boss without sync, without stance. Trust me, that 20% of that piddly DPS he's doing is not going to make the fight much shorter whatsoever, and in fact him doing so prevents the healer from DPSing as much as they could and I've seen times when they actually lose aggro to some sync'd BLM which slows DPS down even more. I've been that BLM that had to slow my casting down because of threat.

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I understand some tanks have issues holding threat outside of their tank stance (though I don't really know how) but those tanks are not likely the same tanks doing Savage (and adopting that 'gogogo' mentality you talk about) since if you can't hold hate in Savage you'll just get kicked.

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It isn't just the Savage Players adopting "GOGOGO"..... Monkey See, Monkey Do. You bring a Savage Player into Leveling Roulette and they are teaching 3 other players that "GOGOGO" is the only way to do it, especially some of the more toxic people who insist on GOGOGO would impress upon sprouts that everybody wants GOGOGO so the sprouts start trying to GOGOGO and now you got unskilled and undergeared players trying it, and dying.

Scroll back some of my responses on this thread, where I had a couple Returnee/Sprout tanks who are definitely not endgame players trying to multipull and failing horribly.

Now, I realize I could have worded some what I did better, I just feel that people should relax a bit in Leveling Roulette to be honest.

Ahh what even was that Expert roulette? XD
Hell's Lid. I got a DRK whose only cooldown was Living Dead, a White Mage who knew Cure, Regen, Benediction and Stone IV, and a Monk popping Perfect Balance between pulls randomly.

None of them could dodge anything. Well, the monk got better towards the end, but anyways.
On the first boss, all 3 had 3 vuln stacks as soon as the boss had done 3 moves that could give them, and soon the White Mage died to just standing under the boss drooling lava on her.
On the second boss, all 3 died simultaneously at the end of the add phase (standing in the intersection of "boss dashes here" lines is not a good idea). I somehow managed to get the tank and healer up before taking a single hit myself (thank the twelve for Dualcast).
During the masspull from boss 2 to 3 - oh hey no cooldowns SPLAT.
Third boss went okay-ish, aside from me needing to spot-heal the tank every now and again.

But despite all those shenanigans, the whole run was done in good spirits. What a weird juxtaposition to some of the well-going salty runs I've been seeing.
Just wish I'd gotten at least one commendation out of that :P

On anther note, what's up with all these tanks doing big pulls with no AoE? Been seeing quite a few singe a started putting my alt into level 50 dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

I'm not criticizing the players for doing something they must do, I'm more criticizing the game design, which causes people to act like that in the first place. They design Endgame to be "GOGOGOGOGO" and then some players will take that mentality and apply it to the entire game. It's a source of toxic behavior I feel we don't need. There's surely gotta be better ways to introduce challenge than slapping an enrage on it.



Depends on the level range and your gear level and whether or not you are synch'd. I don't want to see a Warrior or a DRK trying to tank a boss without sync, without stance. Trust me, that 20% of that piddly DPS he's doing is not going to make the fight much shorter whatsoever, and in fact him doing so prevents the healer from DPSing as much as they could and I've seen times when they actually lose aggro to some sync'd BLM which slows DPS down even more. I've been that BLM that had to slow my casting down because of threat.



It isn't just the Savage Players adopting "GOGOGO"..... Monkey See, Monkey Do. You bring a Savage Player into Leveling Roulette and they are teaching 3 other players that "GOGOGO" is the only way to do it, especially some of the more toxic people who insist on GOGOGO would impress upon sprouts that everybody wants GOGOGO so the sprouts start trying to GOGOGO and now you got unskilled and undergeared players trying it, and dying.

Scroll back some of my responses on this thread, where I had a couple Returnee/Sprout tanks who are definitely not endgame players trying to multipull and failing horribly.

Now, I realize I could have worded some what I did better, I just feel that people should relax a bit in Leveling Roulette to be honest.

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I think people should play at their current skill level or, at best, try to push themselves a bit. If that means that they hardly drop tank stance that's ultimately not going to make or break a dungeon but to say that you can paint across the board that you "don't want to see a WAR or a DRK tanking a boss unsynced without stance' implies that people can't competently do that. They can and do.

Hell, I did quite a few leveling roulettes and dungeon spams as WHM where a friend was leveling BRD and got pug tanks who stance danced. I still ended those dungeons as second in dps each time though. It only inhibits healer dps if you let it.

My issue isn't with your overall idea but rather that it feels like you're painting with too wide of a brush and dealing in what sounds like absolutes when my actual experience is the opposite of what you're saying. I have tanks in DPS atance hold off me on RDM which is very bursty. I dps as a healer just fine despite tanks stance dancing. I stance dance myself and very rarely see any issue arise from it. I'm not an amazing player either, especially as a tank. I just don't think you're factoring in the vast majority of the time when the only side effect of a tank in DPS stance is a faster clear.

Tried fighting a boss in DPS stance after an initial enmity combo in Tank Stance like people keep telling me good tanks do. Ended up having aggro ripped of me and wound up with dead DPS. And that was with multiple uses of the Enmity combo when i noticed i was getting crept up on.

Not really selling me on the idea that doing 4-man content in DPS stance is a good idea here...

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Originally Posted by Mixt

Tried fighting a boss in DPS stance after an initial enmity combo in Tank Stance like people keep telling me good tanks do. Ended up having aggro ripped of me and wound up with dead DPS. And that was with multiple uses of the Enmity combo when i noticed i was getting crept up on.

Not really selling me on the idea that doing 4-man content in DPS stance is a good idea here...

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Either your not doing enough DPS to compensate for not having tank stance up or the DPS were not controlling their emnity or its a combination of the 2.

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Originally Posted by Mixt

Tried fighting a boss in DPS stance after an initial enmity combo in Tank Stance like people keep telling me good tanks do. Ended up having aggro ripped of me and wound up with dead DPS. And that was with multiple uses of the Enmity combo when i noticed i was getting crept up on.

Not really selling me on the idea that doing 4-man content in DPS stance is a good idea here...

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From my experience this heavily depends on the level of the content, your gear, your rotations and if your DPS are using their enmity management skills or not. At 70 with decent DPS players i'll need at least 2 or 3 opening enmity combos (Assuming none of them are managing their own enmity) before I'm at a comfy level of enmity and go into sword. even then DPS might creep up on me but that can be fixed with a swap to shield and a few more enmity combos.

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Originally Posted by Mixt

Tried fighting a boss in DPS stance after an initial enmity combo in Tank Stance like people keep telling me good tanks do. Ended up having aggro ripped of me and wound up with dead DPS. And that was with multiple uses of the Enmity combo when i noticed i was getting crept up on.

Not really selling me on the idea that doing 4-man content in DPS stance is a good idea here...

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What was your job? What were the DPS jobs? What boss did you fight? What's your ilvl? As pointed out it will also depends if:

1) Your ilvl vs the rest of the party's ilvl.
2) Their aggro management (diversion, shadewalker, smoke screen, tactician, refresh)
3) The amount of damage you dealt to keep it up.

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Originally Posted by Mixt

Tried fighting a boss in DPS stance after an initial enmity combo in Tank Stance like people keep telling me good tanks do. Ended up having aggro ripped of me and wound up with dead DPS. And that was with multiple uses of the Enmity combo when i noticed i was getting crept up on.

Not really selling me on the idea that doing 4-man content in DPS stance is a good idea here...

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Maybe the dps didn't pop enmity CDs, but even in that situation as a WAR I'm usually fine through the end of IR if I open with (Unchained) Tomohawk (Equilibrium) SE Combo with a swap to Deliverance, IR with Thrill, Onslaught and Upheaval woven in. I don't know what the PLD equivalent would be, I'm still leveling PLD, but if a dps eats a buster after you've done an enmity combo in Shield Oath either you've got a monstrous gear disparity or that DPS has messed up.

I'd keep a specific eye on BRDs in dungeons too. As a BRD I know the pain of using Refresh and Tactician for resource regen during big pulls then getting to a boss and getting a really lucky opener only to rip hate and have nothing left to dump it with. #Diversion4Ranged2k18

You really didn't do anything wrong, blm should have used their enmity cooldowns, only thing I would suggest is going holy spam first after going swordoath and using at least 2 or 3 enmity combos to start, sure it'll throw off the start of your damage combos but if your team won't manage their enmity you have little other choice if you'd like to push your damage.

Went into Antitower because a sprout in NN needed it for MSQ. During Calcabrina boss both DPS (the sprout and a random BRD) kept trying to hit rear and flank side and kept getting parried when they cast Brace buff. Wasn't such big a deal until 9% the sprout used LB during Brace and succeeded to inflict 0 damage. It was hillarious I couldn't help but laugh. It's a good run :)

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Originally Posted by Bellsong

You really didn't do anything wrong, blm should have used their enmity cooldowns, only thing I would suggest is going holy spam first after going swordoath and using at least 2 or 3 enmity combos to start, sure it'll throw off the start of your damage combos but if your team won't manage their enmity you have little other choice if you'd like to push your damage.

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I've seen DPS not care to the point that even 5-6 enmity combos starting out isn't enough in expert dungeons, despite being seriously overgeared.

Ran "Keeper of the Lake" this morning as a RDM... popped EVERY cooldown I had and still got aggro. The healer, other DPS, and I tried to give the tank advice on rotations and cooldowns as they were a (level 60) sprout tank, but we still couldn't make it past the second boss. After quite a few pitiful wipes, we abandoned it. Never had to do that before.
However, it was eye-opening for me to experience a disaster-run as a dps. I was hesitant to stop maining a WHM going into Stormblood, but I constantly blamed myself for everything that went wrong in a run. It wasn't healthy or fun for me. I look forward to healing again in the future after learning mechanics and how runs SHOULD go. Thanks to all the healers and tanks who show me how it's meant to be done! ^_^

I am so sorry to everyone who has had to deal with myself and/or my girlfriend today. Our ISPs are being awful. So many disconnects and party boots.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Maybe the dps didn't pop enmity CDs, but even in that situation as a WAR I'm usually fine through the end of IR if I open with (Unchained) Tomohawk (Equilibrium) SE Combo with a swap to Deliverance, IR with Thrill, Onslaught and Upheaval woven in. I don't know what the PLD equivalent would be, I'm still leveling PLD, but if a dps eats a buster after you've done an enmity combo in Shield Oath either you've got a monstrous gear disparity or that DPS has messed up.

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For PLD it's Fast Blade -> Savage Blade -> Rage of Halone for the enmity combo (FB -> Riot Blade -> Royal Authority/Goring Blade are for DPS).

Basically throw your shield, flash, and use the above combo. Even in DPS stance, the mob you are attacking should not be pulled off of you. Without Shield Oath, however, it gets hard to hold onto multiple enemies later levels.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

For PLD it's Fast Blade -> Savage Blade -> Rage of Halone for the enmity combo (FB -> Riot Blade -> Royal Authority/Goring Blade are for DPS).

Basically throw your shield, flash, and use the above combo. Even in DPS stance, the mob you are attacking should not be pulled off of you. Without Shield Oath, however, it gets hard to hold onto multiple enemies later levels.

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I understand what the PLD enmity combo is, a WAR would use the Butcher's Block combo to do the same thing but that isn't how I start most single target fights especially at 70. There is another way to establish and hold enmity (at least as a WAR) and what I'm suggesting is there is likely a similar method to accomplish the same thing as a PLD.