Dawntrail character graphics update - opinions, requests and discussion megathread

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Originally Posted by Aurumis

And not only mine but the 99% of people in this thread it seems. You are trolling I don't believe it with all the proves people has shown over all the thread XD it is by far the thing most people hates now.

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Yeah, look I disagree with them completely but this behaviour isn’t acceptable. They haven’t been antagonistic or patronizing, they just have a different opinion. Attacking them harms our credibility and makes this thread look like just an echo chamber. Please keep things civil in here.

I hope it's not too late to offer suggestions that the devs might take into their feedback.

My character is a male Au Ra with Face 4:

https://i.imgur.com/xdlISTa.png

• Please re-add more solid black coloring further up the Au Ra's horns!
  In the pic comparison you can see that pre-Dawntrail, there was more black coloration further up the horns. It was solid black for 5 rings and fading out by the 6th ring. Currently in Dawntrail, the black only extends to ring 2 or 3 before fading out completely by ring 4. The fade is now simply too strong and there is less black to see.

• Reducing the dark shading in the scale below the eye would be appreciated!
  Male Au Ra Face 4 comes with the scales on the forehead and below the eye. The one scale below the eye now has very prominent dark shading that makes it look like a hole, pit, or teardrop. It reminds me of clown tears and is very distracting :'(
  Before Dawntrail it was smoother, lighter, and blended in better. Lessening the dark shadow inside that cheek scale will help it look closer to what it was before without removing the 'texture' they were going for.

I think tweaking those two simple things would do wonders to make Face 4 male Au Ra more accurate to its old self.

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Originally Posted by Birdbrain

I hope it's not too late to offer suggestions that the devs might take into their feedback.

My character is a male Au Ra with Face 4:

https://i.imgur.com/xdlISTa.png

• Please re-add more solid black coloring further up the Au Ra's horns!
  In the pic comparison you can see that pre-Dawntrail, there was more black coloration further up the horns. It was solid black for 5 rings and fading out by the 6th ring. Currently in Dawntrail, the black only extends to ring 2 or 3 before fading out completely by ring 4. The fade is now simply too strong and there is less black to see.

• Reducing the dark shading in the scale below the eye would be appreciated!
  Male Au Ra Face 4 comes with the scales on the forehead and below the eye. The one scale below the eye now has very prominent dark shading that makes it look like a hole, pit, or teardrop. It reminds me of clown tears and is very distracting :'(
  Before Dawntrail it was smoother, lighter, and blended in better. Lessening the dark shadow inside that cheek scale will help it look closer to what it was before without removing the 'texture' they were going for.

I think tweaking those two simple things would do wonders to make Face 4 male Au Ra more accurate to its old self.

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I couldn't help but notice how faded/barely visible your eyebrows are...granted they were pretty light in the Pre-DT, but I could tell it's there

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Originally Posted by Rueby

I couldn't help but notice how faded/barely visible your eyebrows are...granted they were pretty light in the Pre-DT, but I could tell it's there

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You're right. Not sure if it's due to the new, darker shadows around the eyes, but it definitely seems like a handful of races have had eyebrows getting thinner/lighter.

The more I look at screenshots the more I notice those little differences... nose shape change, paler scale color, longer chin scales... and it's driving me a little nuts now!

I've brought one more example of the "unholy triangle," composed of the cheekbones and philtrum. This time it's a male Viera.

Behold the philtrum in all its greatness! (no spoilers)

https://i.imgur.com/0vrml6q.png

https://i.imgur.com/8EUUsdV.png

Also, I'd like to add that if a person doesn't post on forums, it doesn't mean they are content with their characters. They can be just shy, or don't like typing, or have no time to provide detailed feedback, or just don't know English well enough. Like this male Viera player, who sent me the two screenshots I've shown in this post.

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Originally Posted by Rueby

I couldn't help but notice how faded/barely visible your eyebrows are...granted they were pretty light in the Pre-DT, but I could tell it's there

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Eyebrows have really been all over the place, both in terms of color and in shape. Respectfully to the artists, but I just don't believe due diligence was given, especially in regards to how certain colors look on certain skin tones; an issue that seemed much less egregious to me before the DT update.

Apart from Birdbrain's character, where you can see his eyebrows all but disappeared, I was just going through SB on an alt, and like a damn beacon in the dark, I instantly noticed M'rahz Nunh's eyebrows look like they're practically glowing lol.

https://i.imgur.com/S9zk0y5.png

Easily twice as saturated as his hair color, even setting aside the darker highlights he has. His beard is a little off as well, but not nearly so starkly as the brows, IMO.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg, as we've seen.

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Originally Posted by switchblades

I wonder what happened to the people that posted early on in the thread when DT first launched. Have you guys gotten used to the changes or has the graphics update just demotivated you from logging in whatsoever?
I ask because it looks like a lot of people didn't fanta into something else despite their grievances. Not trying to antagonize or belittle anyone; disliking the update is totally valid. Just curious where you all stand 2 months later.

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I canceled my DT pre-order when the first benchmark came out. Since it released, I created a glam that entirely covered my character's face and I have logged in probably less than 15 times since DT launched. I've done the events and got the pvp series reward. I don't ever stay logged in long. If I happen to have to change glams and catch a glimpse of my character's face it makes me want to turn off the game lol. In fact the only reason I'm back is for the Rising event and the fact that I saw my long time OTP in this game got actual content for the first time in years. It honestly felt like bait directed specifically at me to get me to log in lmao but that's' neither here nor there. I don't feel like I'm missing out not playing Dawntrail. I've been replaying the Dragon Age series anticipating the new game instead.

And I just wanna make a comment about the "dead eyes" thing. I really think so much of the eyes looking lifeless and dead is due to the lack of definition of the pupil. It seems like the iris textures for certain color eyes are more darkened in the middle. And shadowing over the top of the actual eyeball further obscuring the definition. It gives the illusion that the pupils are more dilated than they are which as you know, can make someone look dazed, unfocused, intoxicated, etc. When I look at a lot of these characters that's what I'm seeing personally. I feel like it affects my character too.

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Originally Posted by Len_

And I just wanna make a comment about the "dead eyes" thing. I really think so much of the eyes looking lifeless and dead is due to the lack of definition of the pupil. It seems like the iris textures for certain color eyes are more darkened in the middle. And shadowing over the top of the actual eyeball further obscuring the definition. It gives the illusion that the pupils are more dilated than they are which as you know, can make someone look dazed, unfocused, intoxicated, etc. When I look at a lot of these characters that's what I'm seeing personally. I feel like it affects my character too.

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I've felt the illusion of dilated eyes on other races, but on Female Au Ra they did dilate the pupil. I've also compared the eye textures.

https://i.imgur.com/Lp0YgDl.gif

The conscious decision to make Female Au Ra have larger pupils, when before they were small (which was a key component of their appearance and was represented in official illustrations) just makes absolutely no sense to me.
I don't know if this was maybe an attempt at cuteifying them, but it looks disturbing on my WoL.

Believe me, I've got feelings about the other races eye changes too (my alts are a Lalafell and Viera, both of which have lost their look to some extent because of the new eyes) but I can't stop fixating on what they did to Au Ra.

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Originally Posted by poooman

i honestly liked the borderline glowing iris when using brighter colour options, and the way theyve been toned down makes characters that used to have it feel almost lifeless.

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Your entire post is similar to my own thoughts (especially the part about art/stylization over realism) but this part has been something I've been bothered by with the new eyes.
I haven't said much about it because it's really difficult to explain (and usually only prominent on Au Ra / Miqo'te), but I used to see this on my character in 6.5 and I really liked it. The new eyes "split" the colour in a way where it looks very saturated as opposed to a mix of different tones with the center having the glow.
I'm also unhappy with how eyes appear in the dark now but that's something I find impossible to describe without looking crazy. Sorry if I misunderstood your post at all.

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Originally Posted by Len_

I'm back is for the Rising event and the fact that I saw my long time OTP in this game got actual content for the first time in years. It honestly felt like bait directed specifically at me to get me to log in lmao but that's' neither here nor there.

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Hah I know what you mean. It’s just a coincidence, but on the day I was going to quit last month I was wrapping up all my affairs. Writing letters to my friends and collecting stuff like retainers and whatnot. I was headed to the housing plot I entered the lottery for to get my deposit back as usual and thought “wouldn’t it just be so typical if I finally won the housing lottery for a small plot after trying and failing endlessly to get a house for more than 5 years?” Like any other point before the dawntrail benchmark I would have shot through the ceiling with joy and excitement to win, but always always lost, to botters before the lotto and to rng after it. Like it would be too ironic to win on my last day right?

So of course I finally won it. I finally won a home for my character after years, but my character isn’t my character anymore. Now I can’t just let my account go dormant while I wait to see if they improve things, or else I lose the house I’ve been trying to get forever. Just miserable.

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Originally Posted by lunartears

I haven't said much about it because it's really difficult to explain (and usually only prominent on Au Ra / Miqo'te), but I used to see this on my character in 6.5 and I really liked it. The new eyes "split" the colour in a way where it looks very saturated as opposed to a mix of different tones with the center having the glow.
I'm also unhappy with how eyes appear in the dark now but that's something I find impossible to describe without looking crazy. Sorry if I misunderstood your post at all.

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i think i understand what you mean? the contrast on the texture feels much higher, with darker darks and brighter brights. this ends up making it feel like the ONLY place the colour shows up is in that bottom ring under the pupil, rather than it being the entire thing. while, yes a very minimal change in the grand scheme of things, clearly it makes a big enough difference for people to notice. my main has very dark red eyes, and before the update i could see that hint of red in most lighting, but now its like theyre pure black unless the sun is right in his eyes...
sunseeker eyes feel like the easiest to notice the difference on, maybe because the bright eyes were very fitting for their theme, and letting the thinner pupil shine. but i definitely see it.

i also definitely agree with the eyes looking off in darker lightings. sometimes they just look glossy in a way that also ends up cloudy? if this makes any sense. again, i use a very dark eye colour, so its VERY obvious when there's this weird... film looking thing overlaid on the eyes. its like he's always about to cry or something. i find hrothgar eyes specifically can look really weird because of this sometimes, since you basically cant see the whites of their eyes.

imo its better to have eyes that pop out a bit more, because the average player probably isnt 2ft from their characters face at all times. but you would still want to see the eye colour you picked i think. i don't know, though, i'm just spitballing my thoughts now LOL

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Originally Posted by Cheapshot

lSo of course I finally won it. I finally won a home for my character after years, but my character isn’t my character anymore. Now I can’t just let my account go dormant while I wait to see if they improve things, or else I lose the house I’ve been trying to get forever. Just miserable.

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You can still go semi-dormant. Let your sub lapse, enter the house on the last day so the timer is reset, stay unsubbed for 40+ days and come back for one month. Repeat until the devs have good news for us.

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Originally Posted by poooman

i think i understand what you mean? the contrast on the texture feels much higher, with darker darks and brighter brights. this ends up making it feel like the ONLY place the colour shows up is in that bottom ring under the pupil, rather than it being the entire thing. while, yes a very minimal change in the grand scheme of things, clearly it makes a big enough difference for people to notice. my main has very dark red eyes, and before the update i could see that hint of red in most lighting, but now its like theyre pure black unless the sun is right in his eyes...
sunseeker eyes feel like the easiest to notice the difference on, maybe because the bright eyes were very fitting for their theme, and letting the thinner pupil shine. but i definitely see it.

i also definitely agree with the eyes looking off in darker lightings. sometimes they just look glossy in a way that also ends up cloudy? if this makes any sense. again, i use a very dark eye colour, so its VERY obvious when there's this weird... film looking thing overlaid on the eyes. its like he's always about to cry or something. i find hrothgar eyes specifically can look really weird because of this sometimes, since you basically cant see the whites of their eyes.

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Ah yeah, contrast is the word I meant. I've also noticed that darker colours look too dark now (I'd also say the same is going on with bright shades being too bright), and while this goes outside of the topic of lighting - the entire palette being made different has made all kinds of shades look weird now. Even if it's slightly off like in my case, it's frustrating. You can't even try to achieve the same options as before because the settings are so limited to begin with.

A lot of my gripes with the dark relate to how I preferred the way the eyes would be "lit" in the dark before but I'm not gonna embarrass myself trying to explain it lol

I've noticed the film on the eyes on other characters posted in this thread but not much on my own character (honestly looking for too long at those giant eyes makes me feel grossed out). My friend's Miqo'te character (also Sunseeker) has a major case of it and it's made worse by the low graphics settings. It's 100% easier to see on races with unconventional eyes (like you said, especially on Sunseeker).

So much of this is a product of homogenization.

I don't like how the eyes are much more heavily dependent on lighting than before on my miqo. Compare the eyes to the old ones, which were heavily dependent on the airbrushed shading of the eye models. The original eyes were actually painted on for a reason, which I theorize is to reduce this sort of dull appearance and to add dimension to the eyes no matter what kind of lighting you're in. I get the point of adding more realistic textures, but I would've preferred the eye texture and rendering to be somewhat closer to Y'Jhimei's eyes from FF15, especially with modern improvements.

For the sclera color, I'm not sure for other races, but I have an old photo of my miqote's sclera from before (pic 1). You can see how much more shading there is on the older eyeball. 6.x looks pretty uncanny, while 7.0 look more like a cartoon character. But if you move your own eye to look at your sclera, you're more likely to see red veins, which was closer to before.
The 7.0 whites have multicolored textures that look like resin/glass eyes or the eyes for wax figures. I would assume it's because the new sclera is much more shiny and reflective, while the old eyes were matte and painted, with enough warm shading to compensate the form. For color theory of eye whites in old paintings and regular photos from afar, they tend to be more warm and dark in color, which makes sense for smaller, human eyes. The lack of shadows in the whites make it seem much more bright than it should.

I agree that the old irises felt more vibrant and almost glowed, and though there was much less shadow before, the shadows were dark enough to show dimension. The new textures for the irises are extremely detailed, to the point where my console renders itself to being more sparkly than it should. The way certain light reflects on the irises looks extremely creepy. The old eyes would not have reacted to the Gridanian market lighting like pic 3.

6.x > 7.0 > 7.0
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/d/...rurGpN4dYGTFnw

Now that I think about it, I sort of wish that miqo irises reacted to light (and looked) more like real cat eyes, instead of the way human eyes work with light. Even how the old eyes almost glowed felt more catlike.

So I finished all of DT and I still am not very happy with the changes to my characters. Besides the eyebrows which I've discussed before in great detail, one thing that really stood out to me throughout DT were the expressions.

For example:
https://i.imgur.com/m3fxKaL.png
(/eat pizza) Ever since 7.0, elezen male expressions have become way too goofy. There were several moments in DT where he made a similar expression, and it always jarred me out of the story because it looked so silly.

I'm pretty sure the face shape has changed, especially around the eyebrows, which contributes to the odd expressions and the tilt at the end of the eyebrow that wasn't there before. There's a ridge now on the end that wasn't there in 6.0.

https://i.imgur.com/l5OYmNp.png
(/smile) Whenever he smiled in DT, it looked like fake smile, because he was just tilting the ends of his lips up and not pulling his lips back. I don't have screenshots from 6.0 of his expressions, but it feels like his eyes got a lot more squinty in many of the expressions in 7.0.

https://i.imgur.com/PltRwPr.png
(/grin) has just gotten extremely goofy. The eyebrows are pulling up in a strange way, and this problem persists in many of the expressions.

https://i.imgur.com/iuuEwIW.png
(/content) used to actually look content, now his eyebrows are pulling up weirdly.

https://i.imgur.com/GOAnKzN.png
(/smirk)

https://i.imgur.com/ligbbzO.gif
(/taunt) also looks goofy now, also his right eyebrow randomly twitches at the front end.

https://i.imgur.com/nSBba8L.png
(/sad) was never a really good looking expression for elezen males but it somehow looks worse now. The eyebrows go into an S shape when previously it looked more like one stroke upwards.

https://i.imgur.com/0u1BUGP.png
This is especially apparent in (/scared), which for some reason DT liked to use a lot. Needless to say, it just looked incredibly goofy and I wish they would have stopped using this expression so much lol.

https://i.imgur.com/T1U5JqY.png
They also really liked to use (/amazed), which wouldn't be that bad except for now (/amazed) looks goofier than it did in 6.0...

https://i.imgur.com/oHitnwM.gif
Once again there is a strange S shape in (/worried), and also his eyebrows are twitching.

https://i.imgur.com/rJm9gA0.png
There was a moment in DT where he used (/sneer) at what was supposed to be the beginning of a fight...and it kind of made what was supposed to be a cool scene just...awkward. He looked like some weird villain, and I can't say I've ever thought that about my own character lol.

https://i.imgur.com/FhByUmw.gif
There's also a twitching problem in (/confused). Also the eyebrows are not even.

https://i.imgur.com/OG9thI9.png
(/simper) vs...

https://i.imgur.com/YMMadu0.png
(/beam). I remember quite distinctively that I preferred to use (/beam) sometimes because it would open his eyes up more, but now only his mouth changes.

https://i.imgur.com/PPQOWIn.gif
(/scoff) is the only one that makes my character look like himself again, but that's probably because the eyebrows are now straight lol. Either way there's a twiching problem still.

https://i.imgur.com/3NU619g.png
(/ponder) was always a bit more goofy on elezen male but now there's a strange bend there on the eyebrow.

I'm not gonna lie, the more I look at the graphics update done to the characters, the more I feel like they did not do much quality assurance. Like even a single careful pass over every character expression would've caught things like twitching. I don't understand why it has become up to us, the customers, to catch these kinds of issues that the developers should've caught themselves.

Not to mention, having access to the original models and expressions should have made it easy for them to make the graphics update for characters as close as possible to the originals like they promised. In this kind of thing, paying close attention to the small details should have been a priority, instead of making changes that were "close enough."

I have to say that my motivation to play the game has decreased by a lot whenever I log on and look at my character's face. I've been invested in my character's story since 2018, so to have it change so drastically is pretty demotivating for me. And since I was already starting to consider moving to another game before 7.0, this hasn't helped me want to stay.

I sincerely hope that the devs will take our feedback into consideration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqqmfQ95P0k

The twitching happens really badly on Femroe face 2 too, I hadn't seen anyone else complain about it, but I suppose it's good to know maybe a universal thing. Looks like my poor girls have a damn heart beating in their head.

There's some very subtle changes to my Elezen that made her stand out more.
But otherwise she's the same as always.

I took this one during the character creation long ago when I was finally happy with her look.
And then during Dawntrail benchmark, I recreated her appearance and took it in the same pose.
Old / New

Apologize on this one for the lightning differences.
Before Dawntrail / After Dawntrail

I didn't want to flood the post with images so I made image links.

Overall, I'm very happy. But nothing much really changed with her, which is just better.
I'd be so unhappy if they made changes that drastically altered her..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anarnee

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqqmfQ95P0k

The twitching happens really badly on Femroe face 2 too, I hadn't seen anyone else complain about it, but I suppose it's good to know maybe a universal thing. Looks like my poor girls have a damn heart beating in their head.

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It's universal as far as I know. If it hasn't been yet, it should be bug reported.

I wanted to particularly talk (not for the first time) about male Au Ra face 3, because while all my characters have issues that boil down to "please look at the original shape and get the details right", this face has been considerably restructured.

I picked up this character because I liked the idea of a dragon race, but instead of going with the apparent tough and serious vibe of the default character appearance, I decided I wanted to make the most "nice" character I could, and once I got him into the game proper I was delighted to find that despite the serious mugshot expression in the character creator, he quickly softened in other lighting and was incredibly cute once he smiled.

Some examples of his expressions - some variety of smile, straight face, smirk and blushing:
https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...274adfa95c.jpg

SETTINGS

Face 3
Jaw 4
Eyes 2
Iris Large
No limbal rings
Eyebrows 2
Nose 1
Mouth 1
No lip colour

Additional features:
2. Extra cheek scales
3. Horn decorations
5. Eyebrows

Facepaint picked to resemble additional scales

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So I've been playing him for six years now, and his substitute in the graphics update is just not the same.

Comparison pictures are a bit of a mixed bag since I just had to use what I had previously saved from the old game and could replicate with cutscenes:

https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...6e5cbf47b4.jpg
His smile has become fake-looking and thin-lipped. The bottom lip sticks out more and has more shadow underneath. Not shown here, but the resting face has shifted from its slight smile to a harsher expression.

[hb]https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...89472b6519.jpg
Downturned mouth and near-reversal of the dark and light sections between the eye and eyebrow

https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...d6da075e64.jpg
Overexaggerated swoop of the eye makeup at the outer corner, eyes more concealed at this angle, nose shape has changed.

https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...a3abe2a77e.jpg
Two problem aspects specifically when the eyes are closed: lack of eyelid makeup interfering with the overall line of the makeup, and relatively huge eyelashes where the original face has very little. Also absolutely no light shining on the undersides of the eyebrows - nothing seems to cut through the shadow on them.

https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...413c56b441.jpg
Lower lip is wider compared to the more trapezoid shape of the original

https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...ef8ddffc02.jpg
Along the right edge of the face, you can see (if you can make it out against the similar-coloured background) how much more the face puckers inwards around the eyes

https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...120c5824af.jpg


https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...635ec576e0.jpg
This angle particularly shows the change in shape of the chin which was previously rounded, in contrast to the other jaw shape options which were more pointed. Now it also comes to a sharp point.
I also dislike how the top edge of these scales (where the "beard" meets the skin) have been interpreted as very blocky and right-angled. The original shape clearly has additional ups-and-downs and more curving edges.


I put together more comparisons of the mouth shape, but the one I did back in the first benchmark still stands (also note the chin shape):
https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...6fac564350.jpg


I've also compiled the eye comparisons from the above pictures into a single image

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Drastic change of colour on the scales makes them look dark and dirty:
https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...64645438bc.jpg

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Eyelashes are in the wrong position and stick outwards rather than the original minimal and downwards:
https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...f768c66f10.jpg

I think there has been a misinterpretation of the unusual eye structure:
https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...f4229466c9.jpg

And this image which I assembled back in the first benchmark seems to still be mostly relevant, although in the current build of the game, the eyelid seems to have been smoothed out somewhat but the shadow under the eyebrow is more intense.
https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...5eb55e5592.jpg

Issues that are still relevant include:

• pulled-in outer eyelid, as can be seen on the right eye

• nose seems more rounded underneath

• lower lip sticks out further with a sharp edge to it

• corners of the mouth are downturned

• chin is much pointier

• narrower face and a larger gap under the "sideburn" scale plates

I checked back on a photo I made comparing both benchmarks to 6.5 and I noticed that in the April Benchmark that Eye Shape 3 - Female Au Ra Face 1 was much closer to the original with the sharper appearance and longer eyelashes. Oddly, the enlarged pupil size and everything else is the same in both benchmarks, they only modified the eye shape. I'm even more confused now as to why it was suddenly changed last second if it more closely resembled the original appearance in April's. It did look off, but I wish they kept it closer to the April eye shape.

https://i.imgur.com/3jxLVno.png

https://i.imgur.com/fsXNKgG.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lunartears

I checked back on a photo I made comparing both benchmarks to 6.5 and I noticed that in the April Benchmark that Eye Shape 3 - Female Au Ra Face 1 was much closer to the original with the sharper appearance and longer eyelashes. Oddly, the enlarged pupil size and everything else is the same in both benchmarks, they only modified the eye shape. I'm even more confused now as to why it was suddenly changed last second if it more closely resembled the original appearance in April's. It did look off, but I wish they kept it closer to the April eye shape.

https://i.imgur.com/3jxLVno.png

https://i.imgur.com/fsXNKgG.gif

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My theory with this issue is that, after a bunch of people (rightfully, IMO) complained about eye makeup and mascara becoming way too heavy on some face options in the first benchmark, they decided to lessen eyelash length on every face as a part of a rushed fix, instead of checking each face individually for said issues.

*This image was made during the first benchmark release.
https://i.imgur.com/P6kTr5F.png
My Face 2 ♀ Viera was a victim of this in the initial benchmark (that's when the above image comparison was made) and thankfully got corrected for the second benchmark and official release. But I don't think they should have done a sweeping nerf on all eyelashes to achieve that correction, so I hope they go back and fix them...

I just want to revoke my earlier comment that I was having trouble seeing what was going on with my face #4 male Miqo'te eye shape. The eyes have definitely gotten smaller around the edges and the eyelashes don't extend out as far. Will aim to do comparison pictures tomorrow.

I think we can all agree is that Square shouldn't have touched the character models AT ALL. Whatever the old settings they had for years clearly were working.

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Originally Posted by EchoingPulse

I think we can all agree is that Square shouldn't have touched the character models AT ALL. Whatever the old settings they had for years clearly were working.

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Not sure I agree with this. I think it's important to remember that a lot of the issues also stem from the new lighting that highlights different areas than before which is what makes some areas of the models look weird. Take hyurs puffy eyelids for example, they obviously don't look good but the old models also had them and the new lighting just makes them more obvious where previously they were not that noticeable. The best solution would have to actually edit the model itself and reduce the puffiness of the eyelids to account for the new lighting but in attempt to keep the models as close to original as possible, they opted not to change that area creating an even bigger disillusion.

Sure, some areas have been changed too much but and this thread is proof of that, however to think that everyone would be happy if the models were not changed at all and only textures and lighting were updated shows imo a lack of understanding on how delicate of a process it is to actually upscale models and the environment while retaining the original look.

i do also agree with the lighting causing a ton of issues. temporarily setting aside genuine shape changes for things like eyes, noses or lips for some, the fact older areas and (seemingly) portraits do Not have the updated lighting just creates a ton of unflattering lighting like we saw in the first benchmark. that 'triangle' highlight on the face causing the cheeks to look horribly sunk in is the greatest offender alongside the oddly prominent highlighting of the under-eye.

as i've said in previous posts i just think going for a more 'realistic' inspired shader on a more stylized game will create issues like this. real life shadows are not always flattering on real people, but i think when people play a game they usually want the characters to be lit in a way closer to a movie. while the nature of real-time calculated shadows is that you cannot and will not be able to account for every single lighting scenario, it just feels like there wasn't even an effort to do so? i don't care about the technical side of how hard my computer has to work to show me it, just put some thought into how it looks. insert pretentious comment about my personal preference being games that are technically 'worse' but heavily stylized to 'make up' for it

i have got to stop rambleposting but that's my onion

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Originally Posted by Louhikko

Not sure I agree with this. I think it's important to remember that a lot of the issues also stem from the new lighting that highlights different areas than before which is what makes some areas of the models look weird. Take hyurs puffy eyelids for example, they obviously don't look good but the old models also had them and the new lighting just makes them more obvious where previously they were not that noticeable. The best solution would have to actually edit the model itself and reduce the puffiness of the eyelids to account for the new lighting but in attempt to keep the models as close to original as possible, they opted not to change that area creating an even bigger disillusion.

Sure, some areas have been changed too much but and this thread is proof of that, however to think that everyone would be happy if the models were not changed at all and only textures and lighting were updated shows imo a lack of understanding on how delicate of a process it is to actually upscale models and the environment while retaining the original look.

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Agreed… while I personally didn’t think the original graphics were bad at all, especially for the age of the game, I get that they’re trying to compete with newer games, as well as give their artists better tools to work with.

But like you said, they should’ve taken the time and care to realize just what the new lighting, textures, etc. were going to do to the faces and correct for that. The under-eye puffy bags are one example of that, as is the heavily emphasized philtrum on many faces. Although I suspect there are other issues at play, with regard to how the eyes and mouths function with emotes now, but I don’t have the technical knowledge to speculate on that, so I leave it to those that do.

In the end, all we really want is their initial goal: updated graphics without changing the overall look and feel of our characters. One of the selling points of this game is the ability to create your own character as the main character. So naturally people are very attached to their character(s). Just hoping we get some good news soon!

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Originally Posted by EchoingPulse

I think we can all agree is that Square shouldn't have touched the character models AT ALL. Whatever the old settings they had for years clearly were working.

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No, I think we cannot all agree on that. The 2.0 character models had issues that have been visible for years. In addition, they added a lot more bones to the models so they can animate better in the future. I also suspect they remade the models the way they did so future cross-race items will be easier to make for them, but that's just a guess.

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Originally Posted by Louhikko

The best solution would have to actually edit the model itself and reduce the puffiness of the eyelids to account for the new lighting but in attempt to keep the models as close to original as possible, they opted not to change that area creating an even bigger disillusion.

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I see your overall point, but I wanted to point out that this specific instance actually isn't an issue with the new lighting interacting with the model itself. Rather, the eyebag shadows are "drawn" onto the normal map of the face. If you remove the eyebag lines from the normal map, that region of the face would go back to looking smooth without needing to alter the geometry.

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Originally Posted by Astronis

No, I think we cannot all agree on that. The 2.0 character models had issues that have been visible for years. In addition, they added a lot more bones to the models so they can animate better in the future. I also suspect they remade the models the way they did so future cross-race items will be easier to make for them, but that's just a guess.

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Could just be the particular face I use and scrutinized the most had no lingering problems pre 7.0, what with it being a 3.0 addition race and not a 2.0 race, but I had no problems with the old face models.
As an end user, facial animations looked so much better with the fewer bones the devs had to work with pre 7.0. Sure, 7.0 models might be a technical upgrade and better to animate in future because of additional bones, but the animations we have right here in the now are definitely worse than what we had in the past. I don't want to have to look forwards to a fix, for something that worked just fine three months ago. We've updated but backwards haha...
I've heard about the cross race gear explanation too, I think in LA Fan Fest they talked about auto-adapting headgear to fit different races. If its true that the face models were remade to cut development costs, quality be damned, then that's just saddening to hear.

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Originally Posted by Cyrtip

Could just be the particular face I use and scrutinized the most had no lingering problems pre 7.0, what with it being a 3.0 addition race and not a 2.0 race, but I had no problems with the old face models.
As an end user, facial animations looked so much better with the fewer bones the devs had to work with pre 7.0. Sure, 7.0 models might be a technical upgrade and better to animate in future because of additional bones, but the animations we have right here in the now are definitely worse than what we had in the past. I don't want to have to look forwards to a fix, for something that worked just fine three months ago. We've updated but backwards haha...
I've heard about the cross race gear explanation too, I think in LA Fan Fest they talked about auto-adapting headgear to fit different races. If its true that the face models were remade to cut development costs, quality be damned, then that's just saddening to hear.

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I know that in one of the Fanfests, Yoshi-P took great pains to point out some of the issues lalafell had that they were correcting, and I know, playing a Highlander, there were issues there also, issues I've been very pleased to be rid of now. I can just imagine that he was playing his main and just being irked at the things he saw that couldn't be fixed...until now. Faces added after 2.0 probably didn't have those same issues. At least, I never saw the same kind of problems on my au ra alt that has the same face as yours judging by the horns.

And yea I can see people being unhappy with the current animations. Some of them need correcting as they didn't quite translate (I know some expressions cause a weird twitching on the eyebrows that absolutely should not be there).

I really, seriously disagree that it was "quality be damned", as I can see a great deal of care has gone into making the faces as close as possible while still maintaining the same feel. I know quite a lot of people disagree with that, but the faces do, in my eyes, still have the same aesthetics while being an upgrade. Faces either designed by or inspired by Tetsuya Nomura's work still look unmistakably like Tetsuya Nomura's work. I do think there's some work left yet--some faces have some crazy tall foreheads and there's some weirdness here and there, but no, the quality was not to be damned. If it was quality be damned, they wouldn't have gone through the effort correcting things from the first benchmark (and maybe second, though at least on my Highlander's face, if there was such a pass it was so minor as to be unnoticeable).

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Originally Posted by Astronis

Faces either designed by or inspired by Tetsuya Nomura's work still look unmistakably like Tetsuya Nomura's work.

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I hate to be that person, but small nitpick: the 1.0-2.0 races, at least, are based closely on Akihiko Yoshida's concept art. Kazuya Takahashi and Tsubasa Masao seemed to largely take over from there, as far as player character designs are concerned. The only designs Nomura's directly contributed (not counting crossovers, that is) have been for Gaia and Eden's Promise (the boss, not the entire series lol).

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Originally Posted by Turnintino

I hate to be that person, but small nitpick: the 1.0-2.0 races, at least, are based closely on Akihiko Yoshida's concept art. Kazuya Takahashi and Tsubasa Masao seemed to largely take over from there, as far as player character designs are concerned. The only designs Nomura's directly contributed (not counting crossovers, that is) have been for Gaia and Eden's Promise (the boss, not the entire series lol).

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Haha that's why I said "inspired by", because I wasn't sure who exactly designed them directly, though I can still see Nomura's 'fingerprints' all over my character. Probably because he's designed enough characters for Final Fantasies that it's become part of the DNA in the same way Amano's work has. Akihiko Yoshida has a very distinct style, which you can still see in some of the face models for sure.

Thanks for the correction!

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Originally Posted by EchoingPulse

I think we can all agree is that Square shouldn't have touched the character models AT ALL. Whatever the old settings they had for years clearly were working.

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I don't agree with that at all. There are issues here and there but overall it's a massive upgrade in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Louhikko

I think it's important to remember that a lot of the issues also stem from the new lighting that highlights different areas than before which is what makes some areas of the models look weird.

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I've noticed this as well. I recently rewatched Girl With The Dragon Tattoo (excellent movie) and there's a scene that takes place in an elevator with light directly overhead. When I reached this scene I had a good chuckle because I realized it looks exactly like so many pictures people have posted as examples of how bad the graphical update looks.

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/8...985288~mv2.png

The game previously had a very rudimentary lighting solution and now it has a very good one. There are of course real issues that should be addressed with the models and lighting, I have an accepted bug report open on one of them right now, but I do think some people are just very surprised at how drastically the look of their character is effected by different environments and conditions, as it should be.

I understand people bringing up lighting being unflattering and causing 'more issues than are really there' but it's one symptomatic problem of the whole situation. Some of the actual model changes are detrimental regardless of lighting, and not only are problems with the standardisation of polygons shaving racial features (which, given they are readjusting this mesh to "match" the original faces you would think would've had more care given the PR regarding keeping impression the same) but genuinely makes it hard to feel that actual care for quality went into things.

Some faces straight up won the lottery while entire races look/feel very different.

I know I keep harping on about hellsguard - funny what having played one for 9+ years does there - but seeing us lose our traits and have our faces be slapped with a beauty filter (and straight up missing normal maps, a thing you would think would be carefully checked for QC, but got filed into 'not a bug' in ENG and JP forums) in addition to our eyes being DRASTICALLY changed being backed up by the countdown art made for DT featuring the same black pupil with overshadowed eyes, no nose ash, and finer features matching the benchmark looks was a real kick to the gut. It was like a hard confirmation of 'no this is the intended look for you now from our art team get used to it.'

Lighting is one culprit of an entire mess that could've been avoided with due care, tbh.

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

The game previously had a very rudimentary lighting solution and now it has a very good one. There are of course real issues that should be addressed with the models and lighting, I have an accepted bug report open on one of them right now, but I do think some people are just very surprised at how drastically the look of their character is effected by different environments and conditions, as it should be.

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I think I have to disagree here. Why is that as it should be? This is a game after all, and a stylized one at that. Making characters look worse under some conditions in the pursuit of realism is not the best course in my opinion.

Your photo reference is also a really good example of what many have a problem with currently. Those kinds of shadows make sense in that scene with it being indoors and under harsh directly overhead lights. But those same kinds of shadows are often cast on some character faces during standard daytime lighting, which isn't realistic or appealing.

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Originally Posted by faiarrow

(and straight up missing normal maps, a thing you would think would be carefully checked for QC, but got filed into 'not a bug' in ENG and JP forums)

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That appears to be fixed, since all player-character roegadyn faces have normal maps. They're pretty subtle on some of them, but they exist.

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Originally Posted by Astronis

That appears to be fixed, since all player-character roegadyn faces have normal maps. They're pretty subtle on some of them, but they exist.

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Femroe Face 2 is still missing an entire eyebrow normal map but still has the baked in shadow for it in our flat diffuse, so no, this has not been corrected.

Edit: Popping these here from a few posts back since I'm at work right now.

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Originally Posted by faiarrow

Yeah, the missing normal map for Face 2's brow is a huge problem, we've just got random baked in shading that looks like an unfinished contour because the actual 3D data for lighting isn't there. (Excuse the JP on these - it's from my bug reports and other feedback posts)

https://i.imgur.com/0BJVr7T.png
https://i.imgur.com/qQCEilq.png

https://i.imgur.com/5PqosCC.png
https://i.imgur.com/3TvYgcM.png

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Originally Posted by faiarrow

https://i.imgur.com/2Php4IN.jpeg

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

When I reached this scene I had a good chuckle because I realized it looks exactly like so many pictures people have posted as examples of how bad the graphical update looks.

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/8...985288~mv2.png

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That's actually a really good example of something they have gotten very wrong with some of the new models, which is the shape of the face around the cheeks and upper lip.

The lighting in your screenshot shows that the light falling on the face traces a line from the temples towards a point below the nose, then turns downwards at the nasolabial fold.

In a number of cases with the update, lighting on the old face did this, but the new face has been turned into an unnatural shape with crease running inwards to the centre of the lip instead of outwards to the edges, and the light falls accordingly.

https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...1d022e4fcc.jpg

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Originally Posted by Astronis

That appears to be fixed, since all player-character roegadyn faces have normal maps. They're pretty subtle on some of them, but they exist.

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The issue isn't that there's no normal map at all, the issue is that the normal map is missing vital data that the face used to have.

https://imgur.com/vZzOkPL.png

Here is the eyebrow area of the EW normal map next to the DT one. The furrowed brow (which I'd argue is the defining characteristic of the face!) been completely and utterly erased, meaning the face has lost definition and detail. It's now smooth like a wax doll, like we've been airbrushed into those awful overly-photoshopped magazine covers that barely look human.

For reference, this is the DT normal map for male Miqo'te face 2 - the grumpy older looking one:

https://i.imgur.com/oYkEL1y.png

So it's not a matter of everyone getting smoothed out to be more realistic or play nicer with the lighting or what have you, it is pure and simple, erasure racial traits and the application of some awful beutifying filter to make all the females look more conventionally attractive which, in my opinion, has completely and utterly backfired.

Additionally, the normal map and the diffuse map don't even line up on the lips:

https://i.imgur.com/e9wkYib.png

Also, the eye socket appears to start half-way up the forehead, making it look like some barbie doll a child tried to gouge the eyes out of. The facial structure the face had before the update has been completely and utterly ruined. There is no longer a crease between the brow ridge and the top of the nose. There is no longer the faint normal detail showing the muscle under the eyebrow.

https://i.imgur.com/0SM6glp.png

Yes it has a normal map. But it is a broken one.

This is not an upgrade. This is a mess.

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Originally Posted by Kaziek

This is a game after all, and a stylized one at that. Making characters look worse under some conditions in the pursuit of realism is not the best course in my opinion.

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Fair enough, but I'm not quite sure what you mean. Characters will always look worse under some conditions. The same thing happened before the graphical update ever existed.

https://i.imgur.com/OcgCqqM.png

That's a bit of an extreme example, I didn't bookmark the master post of terrible pre-7.0 lighting examples that someone around here keeps posting, but I'm sure you get my point. I'm not seeing a way around that without a radical reinvention of the game's visual style.

Also, keep in mind the shadows were softer in the first benchmark and were made more harsh due to player feedback. Personally I preferred the softer shadows so I'm at least partially with you there.

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Originally Posted by Kaziek

Your photo reference is also a really good example of what many have a problem with currently. Those kinds of shadows make sense in that scene with it being indoors and under harsh directly overhead lights. But those same kinds of shadows are often cast on some character faces during standard daytime lighting, which isn't realistic or appealing.

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You bring up a good point that I realize I was unclear about in my previous post. I was referring more to the way the shadows were being cast across the face than the actual darkness of the shadows. I haven't seen any standard daytime screenshots that are that dark, but I'd be happy to take a look if you have any examples.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

In a number of cases with the update, lighting on the old face did this, but the new face has been turned into an unnatural shape with crease running inwards to the centre of the lip instead of outwards to the edges, and the light falls accordingly.

https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...1d022e4fcc.jpg

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I see what you mean and that definitely looks like an issue that should be corrected. That is why I made sure to mention such issues exist in my previous post. :)