Raid boss Drop question on translation

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Can you link that source?

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Sure. Here you go:

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Originally Posted by Chinook

Some quickies from the French forums:

- Free Companies will be available from Launch

- Details for dying aren’t available, but rest assured that currently dye-able items will also be dye-able in ARR

- Gear bought with dungeon tokens will have lesser stats than dungeon drops

- Residential won’t be there at ARR launch

- No date fixed for iOS / Android authentificator, but it is in Naoki Yoshida’s planning

- It will be possible to use a USB keyboard with the PS3 version

- You will have to manually go down your mount to talk to a npc

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I also remember Rein translating something that basically said that some time ago.

As for your other questions..

1: I believe this is basically answered. Assuming DL gear remains the rare drop for whatever dungeon it is in come ARR, tokens will be exchanged for other gear, not DL.

2. You only get tokens when you lot for something and don't get it. So say 3 people in the party ltted for item A, 1 person gets the rare item A and the other 2 get tokens. People who don't lot come out empty-handed. The point is, your lot is never a complete waste. Also planning a distribution before runs can allow you to repeat the content back to back and have people lot one at a time for guarantees.

3. Based on what was mentioned so far, there's going to be a central loot list connected to the boss after it is defeated and players will lot for items that it dropped. If nobody lots for an item, nobody gets it.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Sure. Here you go:
I also remember Rein translating something that basically said that some time ago.

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Can't see a link. it that dev confirmed or just translated? it's because of all the different translations that there's confusion i believe some say lesser some don't. sorry if i'm a pain

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Can't see a link. it that dev confirmed or just translated? it's because of all the different translations that there's confusion i believe some say lesser some don't. sorry if i'm a pain

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they are translated from interviews.

Here is Reins original translate: Link

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Originally Posted by Reinheart

＞・現行では当初コンテンツにトークン制を取り入れたいと考えていた。
＞例えば1回クリアで必ずパーティに2～3個の報酬があってみんなで分配する形。
＞何もエられなかった人にはトークンが渡されてコツコツ参加すれば本命のアイテムより性能が少し落ちる品物が手に入るようにする構想
- Wanted to put in token system into current version contents.
- For example with 1 clear have 2-3 rewards (報酬 Houshuu, doesn't say トークンhere like above...orz sorry） which can be distributed with everyone
- Idea was for those that didn't get anything have a token and once you participate enough you get an item with lower stats than the original.

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Originally Posted by AntonyB

they are translated from interviews.

Here is Reins original translate: Link

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the problem is bayohne's post doesn't refer to them as being "lesser" items... or having lower stats.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Players that cast lots but don't win will instead receive tokens, which can be collected and exchanged for items. So you are guaranteed to receive something regardless of the result.

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Hopefully Dev's will post more detailed info soon. lot of concern over this system

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Originally Posted by Dzian

the problem is bayohne's post doesn't refer to them as being "lesser" items... or having lower stats.

Hopefully Dev's will post more detailed info soon. lot of concern over this system

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Oh for sure, I hope that it is wrong and people can buy the full stat items instead of lower stat items. At the end of the day either it be by lot win or bought by items both have been worked for, they should not have a lesser version just because you are able to purchase it using tokens. I hope its like it is now with buying the primal weapons, still takes alot of work to do if unlucky with drops!

Bayohne's post also says nothing to suggest that they are items of the same stats. Considering we have posts that explicitly say lesser stats and no posts that say same stats, it's safe to conclude lesser token loot.

As for my opinion, I'm very pleased to hear it. Tokens should not be exchanged for the rare loot with them already dropping at a steady rate.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Bayohne's post also says nothing to suggest that they are items of the same stats. Considering we have posts that explicitly say lesser stats and no posts that say same stats, it's safe to conclude lesser token loot.

As for my opinion, I'm very pleased to hear it. Tokens should not be exchanged for the rare loot with them already dropping at a steady rate.

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Wait, what? Sure things drop but do the things you would like drop? A friend of mine did all his tokens to get the axe from Garuda and never once did he see the axe drop normally. Yes things drop but its still alot of RNG involved. 1/7 chance that the weapon you would like drop and then 1/8 chance that it actually drops to you.

So you are saying that a person who runs Garuda 20 times to buy that item they would like but did not see drop has not worked enough to entitle them to it? But for someone to run it 1x and go 1/1 is entitled to the fully powered weapon? To me I would say that the person running 20x has worked a hell of alot harder than the 1/1 person and more so deserves it to have a full powered version instead of a lower version.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

the problem is bayohne's post doesn't refer to them as being "lesser" items... or having lower stats.

Hopefully Dev's will post more detailed info soon. lot of concern over this system

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"本命のアイテムより性能が少し落ちる品物が"

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This literally means of lesser performance then the original/real item. While this part was not in the officially translated Dev post, it is from an official interview given by Yoshi. Though they have made indications on a number of occasions that the system is still being finalized and not complete yet so anything can happen by the time 2.0 comes out. I honestly don't think they will change it to where u get the same items when you have 2-3 guaranteed drops every run.

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Originally Posted by AntonyB

Wait, what? Sure things drop but do the things you would like drop? A friend of mine did all his tokens to get the axe from Garuda and never once did he see the axe drop normally. Yes things drop but its still alot of RNG involved. 1/7 chance that the weapon you would like drop and then 1/8 chance that it actually drops to you.

Also, like I said in a previous post, let's not confuse tedium with difficulty. Nobody should have to spam content so much for an item like we do now. Instead the content should be very challenging and in turn very rewarding. If someone doesn't have a rare drop they want, it shouldn't be because they're unlucky or they haven't spammed it enough, but because they've been unable to clear it effectively.

So you are saying that a person who runs Garuda 20 times to buy that item they would like but did not see drop has not worked enough to entitle them to it? But for someone to run it 1x and go 1/1 is entitled to the fully powered weapon? To me I would say that the person running 20x has worked a hell of alot harder than the 1/1 person and more so deserves it to have a full powered version instead of a lower version.

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Seems to me like you're mixing up elements of the current system with the ARR system. I didn't say anything about how drops work now were steady. They aren't. This is why the current way tokens work makes sense. However, with 3 guaranteed drops every run, which go to no1s loot list and are lotted for, and the way tokens are obtained, it only makes sense for the tokens to give out lesser items. They are a consolation prize.

The idea is limiting how many of the rare items are obtained by the population. Hence the term rare. In this version that is done through a simple RNG, which sucks. In ARR it'll be done through limited ability to lot via reset timers.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Seems to me like you're mixing up elements of the current system with the ARR system. I didn't say anything about how drops work now were steady. They aren't. This is why the current way tokens work makes sense. However, with 3 guaranteed drops every run, which go to no1s loot list and are lotted for, and the way tokens are obtained, it only makes sense for the tokens to give out lesser items. They are a consolation prize.

The idea is limiting how many of the rare items are obtained by the population. Hence the term rare. In this version that is done through a simple RNG, which sucks. In ARR it'll be done through limited ability to lot via reset timers.

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Oh yes without a doubt, the sound of the new loot/drop system sounds a hell of alot better than the current. It also depends what they call rare tho, maybe it could just be the stuff like you get in the current instances? Then there is the rarer stuff(DL right now). Thinking about it, I wonder if it would be just the loser of the lots or the full PT that gets nothing who gets the tokens?

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Originally Posted by AntonyB

Oh yes without a doubt, the sound of the new loot/drop system sounds a hell of alot better than the current. It also depends what they call rare tho, maybe it could just be the stuff like you get in the current instances? Then there is the rarer stuff(DL right now). Thinking about it, I wonder if it would be just the loser of the lots or the full PT that gets nothing who gets the tokens?

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The latest post from Bayohne basically confirmed that tokens will be rewarded as a consolation to anyone who lots for an item but doesn't get it. This basically only happens when more than one person lots on the same rare drop.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Greetings,

I wanted to post a clearer version of the specific segment in question here.

4Gamer: What restrictions are there on acquiring rewards from bosses?

Yoshida: In a Realm Reborn, when players defeat bosses, rare items are guaranteed to drop.

For example, if a single party of adventurers defeats a boss, that party will receive two to three rare items. Players can choose to cast lots to win these rare items; however, players will only be able to cast lots three or four times a week, depending on the content. We've added reset timers so players can track this.

Players that cast lots but don't win will instead receive tokens, which can be collected and exchanged for items. So you are guaranteed to receive something regardless of the result.

4Gamer: Two to three players will definitely receive rare items. The other players will receive rewards as well?

Yoshida: For rare items, it's possible that an unlucky player may not win despite casting lots several times. In this case, the player can challenge one of the other contents while waiting for the timer to reset. I must say it's a little difficult to explain how it works without actually having you play the game.


Like Yoshida says in the interview, it will be easier to understand the system once you have a chance to try it out. Keep in mind that details are still being discussed and finalized and what is presented here is just a portion of it. As soon as we have more information to share you guys will be the first to hear it!

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Hi Bayohne (and Yoshida-san),

Thanks for the clarification and update.

We'll probably know a lot more when you finally have the official Lodestone Update on 2.0's Loot / Reward System, but I wanted to bring up a concern that some have mentioned, and suggestions to alleviate it:

* Concern *

• By limiting Players to be able to only cast lots on "Rare Items" 3 or 4 times per week, it could limit their motivation to want to go back and try that content (Raid / Dungeon / Boss Fight) when they finished their 3 or 4 tries. After all, why would they want to go back to "New Dungeon A" in 2.0, if they were out of their 3 or 4 lot attempts?

One solution would be something Square actually implemented in their previous online RPG, and something we saw a little bit of early on with the World NMs (Uraeus, Dodore, etc.):

* Solution *

• Please consider adding additional *Categories* of Items that can drop from Raids / NMs that *don't* count towards the 3 or 4 Lot Chances for "Rare Items." Examples include

• Rare Materials: So besides "Rare Items" (like Darklight), have Endgame Content drop Rare Materials that are part of a Synth, e.g., Astral Lumber, or Damascus Ingots, etc.

• Unique / Untradeable Special Items: Like the "Cursed Gear" idea and getting "Abjurations" or "Attestations of Might / Justice" etc., you could have Raids drop Special Items that you need to augment and alter gear, which would be another incentive for players to try the dungeon again.

• Primal Totems: Currently getting Inferno Tapers (for Ifrit) or Unmarked Keystones (for Moogle) are gotten off many generic mobs. Perhaps for Titan or Leviathan or Shiva, etc., you could get the Primal Tapers you need by doing certain Dungeons (completing them) (but needing a fewer amount of them), or that you'd get a Packet of 10 of them (like getting 10 Unmarked Keystones when you kill one of the NMs near Moogle) from a Dungeon.

• "One Use" Key Items to Spawn OTHER Bosses / Dungeons: Just like getting the Seal of Byakko, Seal of Suzaku, etc. in Final Fantasy XI, you could get a special Key Item for clearing a Boss Encounter / Dungeon / NM, that you'd need to gain access to a different Boss Fight / Dungeon.

• "Other" "Good" Dungeon Drops that Don't Count as "Rare": There are some good pieces of equipment in the current dungeons that aren't as good as Darklight (or as rare), but they're nice pieces to have. Yoshida-san should keep these as other incentives for players to go through dungeons, and these should *not* count towards your 3 or 4 Times to Lot per week. Stuff like:
  • Pince-Nez
  • Explorer's Bandanna
  • Mages Halfgloves
  • Veteran's Field Belt
  • Stonewall Earrings

Ultimately, it feels like the current Dungeons and Raids gave away too many items in completed form, wasting the opportunity to incentivize players and make new content last longer.

If in 2.0 / ARR, you had other Categories of Items that could drop from Raids that *don't* count towards your 3 or 4 Times per Week to Lot, I think that would solve the problem some of us are worried about:

That once you use up your 3 or 4 tries per week, you'd never want to go back into that Dungeon / Fight (unless you were helping your LS or friend).

By adding stuff like Rare Materials (like Uraeus Skin, or rare Astral Lumber, Ingot, etc.) that can only be gotten from that Raid / NM / Fight, and if that didn't count towards your 3 or 4 lots, then I could see this new system not being a problem.

People would still want to go back to that "New Dungeon A" even if they used up their chances on "Darklight" (Rare Gear), to try for other Items (like those listed above - Rare Materials, Special Augmenting Key Items, Rare Totems, etc.).

So you could have completed Rare / Valuable Items, and have items that require Rare Materials, involving Crafters and Disciples of War/Magic in 2.0, and bringing back incentive to go back through a New Dungeon, even if you've used up your 3 or 4 Lots per Week (to try for other stuff).

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Dzian

2:- Will tokens only be rewarded only for those who lose a lot on a drop? or will they be given to everyone who clears the content? If tokens are only awarded on losing a lot then imagine if a boss drops 6 items A B C D E and F. If the only item I want or need is item C for example and the boss never drops C then I won't lot. Does that then mean that once again we have a system where we could run content 100 times with nothing. If C never drops I'll never lot and thus I'll never earn any tokens or once again make no progress towards my goal of obtaining C. In this system the only way I could progress towards C for example would be to lot on items I don't want A B D E and F and hope I lose in order to earn a token. Thus it seems better to award tokens to everyone who clears content regardless of if they lot or not. In such a fashion it would not matter if item C never drops as sure it would suck but at least I would still be making a little progress towards it each time. This would also be true if I had already obtained ABDEF and only needed C to finish my set. How then would I make progress without going back to the current system of spam it and pray to the RNG gods.

3:- What happens to items if no one uses there lots. If 4 people want Item A 2 people want Item B and 2 want Item C. then what happens if Items D E and F drop? and everyone in the party is saving there lot for the items they want and thus they do not roll? Will Items D E F be completely lost or randomly distributed to party members as they exit. Again comes a situation where there's no progress because items DEF may drop multiple times leaving players still no closer to items A B and C which they actually want. and thus once again left with spam content and pray to the RNG gods. This is another reason why tokens should be given to everyone that clears content not just those that lose a lot.

It's not about the loot itself. It's about giving players the means to make and feel progress towards what they want to achieve. This is why people have been asking for token systems for the last 2 years. This is why tokens should be tradable for the main drops. Players do content for the main rewards. And it is those rewards they should feel they are at least making progress on. Even if drops are guaranteed they're not necessarily the right ones.

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Great questions and thoughts Dzian! :)

Definitely agree.

As you said, if you were hoping to get, say, "Item C" from a Dungeon, but only Item A, B, D ever drop in your runs, so you *don't* Lot, then what happens?

Would you never get a Token because you never lotted, and thus, you ran a dungeon constantly and got nothing?

And for Question 3, yah, it'd be really sad to see items that no one lots on (that's "Rare") just be thrown away because people didn't want to spend their 3 or 4 Lots on that (and were saving it up)?

And, I, too, would hope that they'll allow us to trade in our Tokens for the Real, 100% Full Powered Version of the Rare Items in question, not just a Weak Version.

Just make the loot system like XI.

Simple solution.

It's not really a concern if you go to other dungeons/content when you've used your lots on one of them. This way, throughout the week you'll be playing through all kinds of content instead of spamming flavor of the month stuff. Isn't that what SE's been pushing for, based on what Yoshi P says on all the interviews - players trying out all sorts of content instead of focusing on one.

Besides, with a controlled static, you can make it so you control your lots for guarantees and make the single content last days to a week even.

It's a flexible system that fits all kind of scenarios depending on how companies wanna handle their lots imo.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Besides, with a controlled static, you can make it so you control your lots for guarantees and make the single content last days to a week even.

It's a flexible system that fits all kind of scenarios depending on how companies wanna handle their lots imo.

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Hardly anyone I know in the game has, or wants to have, a static party and will therefore have some PUG elements in each party making this still not a very good system unless we always get token for successful runs.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Besides, with a controlled static, you can make it so you control your lots for guarantees and make the single content last days to a week even..

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But you can't control what drops, and I dont think anyone wants to be in a position where they need just one thing and its that one thing that never drops,

sorta like the various hamlet leg armors now... or the dol hats even.
a decent example of why tokens should work on all items.

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Originally Posted by Cynthis

Hardly anyone I know in the game has, or wants to have, a static party and will therefore have some PUG elements in each party making this still not a very good system unless we always get token for successful runs.

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Hardly anyone I know in game wants to PUG when they can be part of a static and develop teamwork to better attain success and regulate drops. So that's a nice subjective argument you've got there.

It's considerably better than an RNG considering there are 2-3 guaranteed rate drops every clear. Anyone who expected guarantees drops with no form of limits on getting them has been, and likely will remain, delusional.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

But you can't control what drops, and I dont think anyone wants to be in a position where they need just one thing and its that one thing that never drops,

sorta like the various hamlet leg armors now... or the dol hats even.
a decent example of why tokens should work on all items.

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There's implications regarding things we don't know yet. You seem to be stipulating varying drop rates among the rare drops. That's not known to be the case. Can simply be a random 3.

In the end, the timer acts as a new way to preserve the uncommon aspect of the rare drops in the way the horribly low rate RNG does now. However with guaranteed runs we have a degree of control simply not possible before. Also, having tokens work on the rare drops would just lead to a behavior where everybody lots for a win-win where they get either the rare or a token for the rare and its right back to spamming the content, yet only 3 times a week. What about that sounds in any way appealing?

Let the rare drops be rare.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

What about that sounds in any way appealing? .

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The fact that people could be sure they'll get what they want eventually. if it dropped great if it didn't you know you're at least a step closer to getting it.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Let the rare drops be rare.

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I completely agree. But that rarity should be governed by content difficulty and not by luck in any form.

If a content is hard then getting a token for clearing it is going to be hard, Getting enough tokens for what you want is going to be hard and thus rare items stay rare.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

Hi Bayohne (and Yoshida-san),

Thanks for the clarification and update.

We'll probably know a lot more when you finally have the official Lodestone Update on 2.0's Loot / Reward System, but I wanted to bring up a concern that some have mentioned, and suggestions to alleviate it:

* Concern *

• By limiting Players to be able to only cast lots on "Rare Items" 3 or 4 times per week, it could limit their motivation to want to go back and try that content (Raid / Dungeon / Boss Fight) when they finished their 3 or 4 tries. After all, why would they want to go back to "New Dungeon A" in 2.0, if they were out of their 3 or 4 lot attempts?

One solution would be something Square actually implemented in their previous online RPG, and something we saw a little bit of early on with the World NMs (Uraeus, Dodore, etc.):

* Solution *

• Please consider adding additional *Categories* of Items that can drop from Raids / NMs that *don't* count towards the 3 or 4 Lot Chances for "Rare Items." Examples include

• Rare Materials: So besides "Rare Items" (like Darklight), have Endgame Content drop Rare Materials that are part of a Synth, e.g., Astral Lumber, or Damascus Ingots, etc.

• Unique / Untradeable Special Items: Like the "Cursed Gear" idea and getting "Abjurations" or "Attestations of Might / Justice" etc., you could have Raids drop Special Items that you need to augment and alter gear, which would be another incentive for players to try the dungeon again.

• Primal Totems: Currently getting Inferno Tapers (for Ifrit) or Unmarked Keystones (for Moogle) are gotten off many generic mobs. Perhaps for Titan or Leviathan or Shiva, etc., you could get the Primal Tapers you need by doing certain Dungeons (completing them) (but needing a fewer amount of them), or that you'd get a Packet of 10 of them (like getting 10 Unmarked Keystones when you kill one of the NMs near Moogle) from a Dungeon.

• "One Use" Key Items to Spawn OTHER Bosses / Dungeons: Just like getting the Seal of Byakko, Seal of Suzaku, etc. in Final Fantasy XI, you could get a special Key Item for clearing a Boss Encounter / Dungeon / NM, that you'd need to gain access to a different Boss Fight / Dungeon.

• "Other" "Good" Dungeon Drops that Don't Count as "Rare": There are some good pieces of equipment in the current dungeons that aren't as good as Darklight (or as rare), but they're nice pieces to have. Yoshida-san should keep these as other incentives for players to go through dungeons, and these should *not* count towards your 3 or 4 Times to Lot per week. Stuff like:
  • Pince-Nez
  • Explorer's Bandanna
  • Mages Halfgloves
  • Veteran's Field Belt
  • Stonewall Earrings

Ultimately, it feels like the current Dungeons and Raids gave away too many items in completed form, wasting the opportunity to incentivize players and make new content last longer.

If in 2.0 / ARR, you had other Categories of Items that could drop from Raids that *don't* count towards your 3 or 4 Times per Week to Lot, I think that would solve the problem some of us are worried about:

That once you use up your 3 or 4 tries per week, you'd never want to go back into that Dungeon / Fight (unless you were helping your LS or friend).

By adding stuff like Rare Materials (like Uraeus Skin, or rare Astral Lumber, Ingot, etc.) that can only be gotten from that Raid / NM / Fight, and if that didn't count towards your 3 or 4 lots, then I could see this new system not being a problem.

People would still want to go back to that "New Dungeon A" even if they used up their chances on "Darklight" (Rare Gear), to try for other Items (like those listed above - Rare Materials, Special Augmenting Key Items, Rare Totems, etc.).

So you could have completed Rare / Valuable Items, and have items that require Rare Materials, involving Crafters and Disciples of War/Magic in 2.0, and bringing back incentive to go back through a New Dungeon, even if you've used up your 3 or 4 Lots per Week (to try for other stuff).

Thanks!

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the reason people would still run the content even though you cant lot anymore is to get other people in their FC gear. If you know who is getting what loot when before you enter then you shouldn't have to lot against anyone.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

2:- Will tokens only be rewarded only for those who lose a lot on a drop? or will they be given to everyone who clears the content? If tokens are only awarded on losing a lot then imagine if a boss drops 6 items A B C D E and F. If the only item I want or need is item C for example and the boss never drops C then I won't lot. Does that then mean that once again we have a system where we could run content 100 times with nothing. If C never drops I'll never lot and thus I'll never earn any tokens or once again make no progress towards my goal of obtaining C. In this system the only way I could progress towards C for example would be to lot on items I don't want A B D E and F and hope I lose in order to earn a token. Thus it seems better to award tokens to everyone who clears content regardless of if they lot or not. In such a fashion it would not matter if item C never drops as sure it would suck but at least I would still be making a little progress towards it each time. This would also be true if I had already obtained ABDEF and only needed C to finish my set.
How then would I make progress without going back to the current system of spam it and pray to the RNG gods.

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First of all I'd like to thank Bayohne for shedding some light on this issue.

Now to the meat of the matter, it seems that Bayohne has confirmed my suspicion that only players who lose lots will be rewarded with tokens which lead me to the same conclusion as Dzian quoted above.

If you other adventurers are anything like me, then you have likely run AV and CC so much in hopes of DL gear that you have already picked up most if not all of the dungeon dropped rares that you desire other than the elusive Darklight.

Considering the fact that there are no plans to change the droprate of darklight gear, it is probable that darklight will be as rare after ARR than before ARR. So, if you only need darklight and can only lot 3-4 times per week, then presumably you will save your lots til darklight drops. But, what are the odds that you will see a piece of darklight drop if you don't spam said dungeon?

The most likely scenario is that darklight will be as hard to get then as it is now and that most player's only option will be to lot on items they don't want in hopes of losing that lot so as to be rewarded with a token. Which leads to two potential outcomes: players roll on items they don't want and win lot, thus wasting a lot and denying someone else of that item that they may or may not have needed; and: players use all of their lots within the first run in hopes of losing all of them and getting a maximum of tokens for a minimum of time spent then moving on to the next dungeon - rinse repeat. I can see this happening most often in PUGs...

Alternatively, two other possible scenarios that are more likely to happen in statics: hardcore linkshell's will continue to spam content in hopes of getting darklight gear and nothing less, tokens will only be a stepping stone towards the real deal and they will spend as much time trying to get darklight after launch as they did before; and: static parties will organize it such that everyone in the party uses all of their lots on the same 3 items in one same run, thus maximizing the number of tokens distributed per item and minimizing the odds that one person never gets a token, they will use all of their lots in one run and move on to the next dungeon uncaring for the real darklight.

On the bright side! the lotting system should, in theory, prevent players from ninja looting and rolling on an item for the sake of another party member. Should an item drop to the loot list of someone planing on ninja looting said item any player with a lot can roll and deny said ninja the ability to loot said item. It does, in a certain sense, even the looting field.

Edit: One last thing, distributing a token to each member regardless of wether they lot or not would only further encourage spamming content until enough tokens have been obtained to buy full set of lesser darklight gear. Darklight drops are so dismal and disheartening that I could care less for the real darklight if it only takes a few weeks of spamming to get my full share of tokens instead of a few months for full darklight.

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Originally Posted by Matsume

First of all I'd like to thank Bayohne for shedding some light on this issue.

Now to the meat of the matter, it seems that Bayohne has confirmed my suspicion that only players who lose lots will be rewarded with tokens which lead me to the same conclusion as Dzian quoted above.

If you other adventurers are anything like me, then you have likely run AV and CC so much in hopes of DL gear that you have already picked up most if not all of the dungeon dropped rares that you desire other than the elusive Darklight.

Considering the fact that there are no plans to change the droprate of darklight gear, it is probable that darklight will be as rare after ARR than before ARR. So, if you only need darklight and can only lot 3-4 times per week, then presumably you will save your lots til darklight drops. But, what are the odds that you will see a piece of darklight drop if you don't spam said dungeon?

The most likely scenario is that darklight will be as hard to get then as it is now and that most player's only option will be to lot on items they don't want in hopes of losing that lot so as to be rewarded with a token. Which leads to two potential outcomes: players roll on items they don't want and win lot, thus wasting a lot and denying someone else of that item that they may or may not have needed; and: players use all of their lots within the first run in hopes of losing all of them and getting a maximum of tokens for a minimum of time spent then moving on to the next dungeon - rinse repeat. I can see this happening most often in PUGs...

Alternatively, two other possible scenarios that are more likely to happen in statics: hardcore linkshell's will continue to spam content in hopes of getting darklight gear and nothing less, tokens will only be a stepping stone towards the real deal and they will spend as much time trying to get darklight after launch as they did before; and: static parties will organize it such that everyone in the party uses all of their lots on the same 3 items in one same run, thus maximizing the number of tokens distributed per item and minimizing the odds that one person never gets a token, they will use all of their lots in one run and move on to the next dungeon uncaring for the real darklight.

On the bright side! the lotting system should, in theory, prevent players from ninja looting and rolling on an item for the sake of another party member. Should an item drop to the loot list of someone planing on ninja looting said item any player with a lot can roll and deny said ninja the ability to loot said item. It does, in a certain sense, even the looting field.

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i was under the impression that gear exchanged for tokens would be of lesser quality then the "rare" drops, if this is the case then no one will really want tokens. If rare items are guaranteed to drop 2-3 drops per run then theres no reason why people would lot against each other and waste their lotting, unless:

SE considers the "greens" as rare, or
the content has a 24 hour lock out timer or something like it.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

i was under the impression that gear exchanged for tokens would be of lesser quality then the "rare" drops, if this is the case then no one will really want tokens. If rare items are guaranteed to drop 2-3 drops per run then theres no reason why people would lot against each other and waste their lotting, unless:

SE considers the "greens" as rare, or
the content has a 24 hour lock out timer or something like it.

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Yes, you are right on both counts.

SE does indeed consider green items as "rares". Thormoen's Subligar <You can have this> "Rare".

The token rewarded gear is supposed to be of lesser quality than the dungeon dropped gear.

But, you are entirely wrong if you think no one will want the token rewarded gear if it is of lesser quality than darklight. It just might be that the difference between the two is equivalent to the differene between HQ and NQ gear. In which case they may as well be the same. Or there could be a much greater difference, in half the stats for example but that would be a bit extreme.

In either case the fact of the matter is that Darklight will be as hard to get after ARR than it is now, according to statements about the droprate not being changed. Currently, there are a whole hell of a lot of players, myself and most of the players in all of my linkshells included, who don't give a rats tail about spamming CC/AV speed runs for darklight gear because the drop rate is so dismal. These are the people that will opt for what may as well be called Dimlight gear (the token rewarded versions).

However, if the gear rewarded with tokens is so undesirable, as you indicate, to the point that no one will want it - then why implement the tokens in the first place? Either the token bought dimlight will be close enough to the real darklight that people will settle for second to best or it will be useless to the point where nothing will change from it's current state because the only gear worth getting (darklight) drops once in a blue moon.

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Originally Posted by Matsume

Yes, you are right on both counts.

SE does indeed consider green items as "rares". Thormoen's Subligar <You can have this> "Rare".

The token rewarded gear is supposed to be of lesser quality than the dungeon dropped gear.

But, you are entirely wrong if you think no one will want the token rewarded gear if it is of lesser quality than darklight. It just might be that the difference between the two is equivalent to the differene between HQ and NQ gear. In which case they may as well be the same. Or there could be a much greater difference, in half the stats for example but that would be a bit extreme.

In either case the fact of the matter is that Darklight will be as hard to get after ARR than it is now, according to statements about the droprate not being changed. Currently, there are a whole hell of a lot of players, myself and most of the players in all of my linkshells included, who don't give a rats tail about spamming CC/AV speed runs for darklight gear because the drop rate is so dismal. These are the people that will opt for what may as well be called Dimlight gear (the token rewarded versions).

However, if the gear rewarded with tokens is so undesirable, as you indicate, to the point that no one will want it - then why implement the tokens in the first place? Either the token bought dimlight will be close enough to the real darklight that people will settle for second to best or it will be useless to the point where nothing will change from it's current state because the only gear worth getting (darklight) drops once in a blue moon.

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i only meant no one will want the lesser quality gear if only blue is considered rare. If darklight and future gear have the same droprate as now then many will opt for the token gear, esp since we will have vanity slots (incase the gear is terrabad)

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

i only meant no one will want the lesser quality gear if only blue is considered rare. If darklight and future gear have the same droprate as now then many will opt for the token gear, esp since we will have vanity slots (incase the gear is terrabad)

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I couldn't agree more. Which is why in a previous post I raised my concern over the definiton of "Rare Gear".

If greens are indeed considered "rare" and in the same loot pool as darklight with an unchanged droprate, then it is safe to assume darklight will end up being just as hard to come by after ARR as before. In which case I see token bought Dimlight as the norm and Darklightt for the hardcore players.

If, on the other hand, "Rares" are defined as blue gear and each boss drops "2-3 rares per run", then I can see a server full of darklight wearing adventurers within a month of ARR's launch. Who would give a rat's tail about lotting on darklight if you were rewarded 2-3 pieces per run? You could just spam the dungeon beyond lot timers and fill up on the epic...

I can only hope that the truth lies somewhere in between both extremes...

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Originally Posted by Matsume

I couldn't agree more. Which is why in a previous post I raised my concern over the definiton of "Rare Gear".

If greens are indeed considered "rare" and in the same loot pool as darklight with an unchanged droprate, then it is safe to assume darklight will end up being just as hard to come by after ARR as before. In which case I see token bought Dimlight as the norm and Darklightt for the hardcore players.

If, on the other hand, "Rares" are defined as blue gear and each boss drops "2-3 rares per run", then I can see a server full of darklight wearing adventurers within a month of ARR's launch. Who would give a rat's tail about lotting on darklight if you were rewarded 2-3 pieces per run? You could just spam the dungeon beyond lot timers and fill up on the epic...

I can only hope that the truth lies somewhere in between both extremes...

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Assuming that everyone in the party doesnt have darklight, and a normal distribution of items (repeats and doubles of some items sometimes) - I would think it would still take longer then a month.

Plus or minus depending on this one strategy I'm concerned about:

If you are a static you can decide who gets what and not roll against each other. So does that mean you can get 3 items every week from a dungeon (each person)?

This system provides an unique effectiveness to statics that would be impossible in disorganized LS/FC and PUGs. . Hope they consider something to make it fair across the board.

I'm adding my "vote" for the token items to be the same as drops, regulated by this lot thing and the difficulty you're doing the dungeon at.

another thing im confused about is it says after you cant lot anymore you can choose to do the other content. Does this mean that its 2-3 lots per instance?

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Originally Posted by Matsume

First of all I'd like to thank Bayohne for shedding some light on this issue.

Now to the meat of the matter, it seems that Bayohne has confirmed my suspicion that only players who lose lots will be rewarded with tokens which lead me to the same conclusion as Dzian quoted above.

If you other adventurers are anything like me, then you have likely run AV and CC so much in hopes of DL gear that you have already picked up most if not all of the dungeon dropped rares that you desire other than the elusive Darklight.

Considering the fact that there are no plans to change the droprate of darklight gear, it is probable that darklight will be as rare after ARR than before ARR. So, if you only need darklight and can only lot 3-4 times per week, then presumably you will save your lots til darklight drops. But, what are the odds that you will see a piece of darklight drop if you don't spam said dungeon?

The most likely scenario is that darklight will be as hard to get then as it is now and that most player's only option will be to lot on items they don't want in hopes of losing that lot so as to be rewarded with a token. Which leads to two potential outcomes: players roll on items they don't want and win lot, thus wasting a lot and denying someone else of that item that they may or may not have needed; and: players use all of their lots within the first run in hopes of losing all of them and getting a maximum of tokens for a minimum of time spent then moving on to the next dungeon - rinse repeat. I can see this happening most often in PUGs...

Alternatively, two other possible scenarios that are more likely to happen in statics: hardcore linkshell's will continue to spam content in hopes of getting darklight gear and nothing less, tokens will only be a stepping stone towards the real deal and they will spend as much time trying to get darklight after launch as they did before; and: static parties will organize it such that everyone in the party uses all of their lots on the same 3 items in one same run, thus maximizing the number of tokens distributed per item and minimizing the odds that one person never gets a token, they will use all of their lots in one run and move on to the next dungeon uncaring for the real darklight.

On the bright side! the lotting system should, in theory, prevent players from ninja looting and rolling on an item for the sake of another party member. Should an item drop to the loot list of someone planing on ninja looting said item any player with a lot can roll and deny said ninja the ability to loot said item. It does, in a certain sense, even the looting field.

Edit: One last thing, distributing a token to each member regardless of wether they lot or not would only further encourage spamming content until enough tokens have been obtained to buy full set of lesser darklight gear. Darklight drops are so dismal and disheartening that I could care less for the real darklight if it only takes a few weeks of spamming to get my full share of tokens instead of a few months for full darklight.

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I would prefer they gave company seals after you complete a dungeon/primal or whatever content they planned instead of tokens, with this people can get company gear and can buy exclusive items from the company like the exp manuals for crafters and gatherers, maybe they can add an item sold in headquarters that pops an NM with very rare items that requires a lot of seals, this to have a seal sink.

I think everyone can be happy with that, getting the pop item will take time so even if you spam content you wont have that many chances to do it and at the end people will do a lot of content looking for these NM's and even casual players can fight those rare NM's in the long run.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

another thing im confused about is it says after you cant lot anymore you can choose to do the other content. Does this mean that its 2-3 lots per instance?

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That's what it sounds like.

All I know is there's going to be less incentive for me to keep running a dungeon after I've run out of my alloted rolls on gear if token gear is weaker than the actual drops. There's enough people in my linkshell that multiple full parties can be put together so that we aren't only subbing in a few people to dungeon spam for them.

My propositions are either:

1. Allow the purchase of the same gear that drops from dungeons for what the dev team considers an ample amount of tokens.

2. Create loot that is unique to being purchased with tokens but not "underpowered". Make it to where said loot has stats that are on the same iLvl as something that drops from a dungeon, but gives different stats. (i.e. a ring with INT and MAB may drop from dungeon, whereas a ring with INT and MACC can be purchased with tokens) This gives some diversity in gear builds.

i would like to be able to purchase the same gear with tokens as well, although i wouldn't be opposed to still being able to purchase a lesser version with less tokens, example:

dl corselet lesser version 25 tokens

normal version 100 tokens

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Originally Posted by Angelas

Endgame should be challenging but not a spamfest. I believe making the systems a more entertaining process with a more consistent reward system is more beneficial to the life of a game than making players spam said event 1000000 times without a drop.

Like I have said in previous posts there is nothing more demeaning than to have someone come along on their first run and walk away with a piece of gear you have been trying to get for months. The luck factor should play into it but not to that degree. So any adjustments to make the system a bit more consistent I am in favor of.

People who think that spamming a dungeon with a .0001% drop rate makes gear any better is crazy. I dont think dungeons should be the only thing to look forward to at endgame. With that said I would like to think dungeon crawls and gear drops lead to equipping your character for more vested content that doesnt rely on just crawling the dungeons a million times a week for the chance of a drop.

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I couldnt have said it any better

Not sure why people are assuming that drop rates won't be changed. I try to keep up with all the new info and i don't remember them ever saying drop rates won't be changed in ARR. They did reply to a thread asking for drop rates to change in the current version, saying won't change(for the current version) but never anything about same rates in ARR.

Also i don't think they are referring to the current Green gear from AV/CC when they say rare drops. Currently a full 5 chest run drops about 3-4 greens, makes no sense to say they are removing the current RNG system for 2-3 guaranteed rare drops if they are referring to Greens since 3-4 Greens are already guaranteed drops. To begin with the Green are not even rare, so not sure why its being categorized as "Rare drops."

As mentioned by Yoshida in the live interview and in the mag interviews, the new loot system is being designed to be more casual, so people won't have to spam the same dungeon over and over again to obtain gear. If we are to assume that drop rates for Darklight won't change then the new system becomes even worse then the current; less casual friendly and more grind. Which is why i think the "2-3 rare drops" refers to Darklight and not the green shit

Now we know about dungeons getting this cool new system... But will Hamlet defense and Primals have the same system as the dungeons will? Primals I know already have a token system, but not the drop rates of the new ARR system.

I would assume so, they did say content won't depend on luck/grind to obtain items and Primal Loot currently falls under that category. If anything i see it being something similar to Garuda, where token is guaranteed to drop and on top of that PT gets 2-3 weapons (like Skirmish) which u can pass. As Far as hamlet goes, got to wait and see, they said Hamlet would change drastically. Hamlet, caravans and behest is being combined, the resulting content being open world like caravan/behest and not instanced based so not sure how loot will work. All we really know at this point is that you would be able to show up and join in on the fight/defense.