How is it at the expense of others? 1/8 chance is still a 1/8 chance for everyone except the guy getting his friend's help. It's not like the person that's handing seals to his buddy is standing there doing nothing during the actual fight. They are helping everyone else have a chance at seals too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wynn
Let's put a different spin on this and say folks who have 9 seals are not allowed to help their friends, ie not allowed to join the party at all. How many people do you think would lose out on the ability to obtain 9 seals? My guess is boatloads.
Small Rant on Seal Rolls in Hamlet parties
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10-10-2012, 11:15 PMMolly_Millions
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10-10-2012, 11:20 PMReika
*you join the party.
<Joe Shmoe> (Hello!)
<Mike Larry> Sup
<Will Smith> Welcome
<Sam Jackson> Hi
<Tina Turner> Hey thanks for joining.
<Tina Turner> What item do you want to lot for?
<Michael Jackson> Hee hee
<Joe Shmoe> Seal
<Marshal Mathers> yo
<Terumi Sakurai> こんにちはー´∀｀*
<Tina Turner> Ok, but just so you know me, sam, will and Mike will be rolling on seals to get seal for our buddy marshal, even tho we ourselves do not need them.
<Matt Daemon> Its at 50, 26
<Joe Shmoe> hmmm that significantly lowers my chances of getting what I need out of hamlet defense, I'll go ahead and wait for a different party. But thank you for being honest about your intentions.
<Matt Daemon> mt
<Tina Turner> I understand, good luck to you.
<Joe Shmoe> (Take Care!)(Let's play together again some time!)
*You leave the party. -
10-10-2012, 11:29 PMbobbygunzTechnically it doesn't really even lower your chance, it just increases the other person's chance of getting seals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reika
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10-10-2012, 11:38 PMMolly_Millions
How does somebody rolling for a seal even though they do not need one give you less than a 1/8 chance? Somebody needs a math 101 class. That's only true if it's agreed upon beforehand that nobody that has 9 seals can roll, which brings up my argument above. What happens if folks with 9 seals are not allowed to join at all?
To put this another way, the ONLY way your chances could be made worse than 1/8 is if a 9th person could somehow roll for the seal. Comparatively speaking, yes your chances are worse than the person who effectively gets two rolls, but that doesn't mean your chances are any worse than they were before you found out that one person was rolling for another. -
10-10-2012, 11:45 PMReika
If all 8 people are going for seal yes your chance for getting a seal will remain the same weather they need it or not. But if he were there and only had to compete against one other person, that is not against 7 people, so it is not a 1/8 chance it is 1/2. your chance goes down each extra person that you are up against. if you are the only person that needs seals, then you have a 100% chance to be given any seal that drops.
to increase one persons chance by rolling with him, is to decrease another persons chance.
If all the people who rolled for the seal legitimatly needed the seal or let it be known that they did not need, they were changing to seal to roll for thier friend and increase his chances of obtaining it i am fairly sure this would be a non-issue. -
10-10-2012, 11:46 PMHanabira
this is ridiculous, the odds of getting what you needed are the same. OP is just upset someone has a higher chance than he does. i remember 1 day in EQ a lonnnng time ago, i was grouped with a guy who was 5boxing. when it came to rolling on gems, he got to random 5 times, and i only did once. did it suck? yes it did, alot, but my chances of winning were the same.
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10-10-2012, 11:49 PMMolly_MillionsDid you agree beforehand that folks who have 9 seals cannot roll for their friends? How many of those folks that are there to help their friends but cannot roll for them do you think would still help? I think you'd lose two party members tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reika
The only thing I see wrong here is your jealousy. -
10-10-2012, 11:50 PMReikaDid you read that skit at all?Quote:
Originally Posted by Molly_Millions
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10-10-2012, 11:53 PMMolly_MillionsNope, you're just jealous that you don't have a friend that is willing to help you for free.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reika
Your post is only true if you all agree that folks who do not need seals cannot roll for them. Which is why I asked if that's what you agreed to beforehand, because if not your jealousy is the only problem here. -
10-10-2012, 11:54 PMHanabirabut the skit pretty much said "if you didnt like it, get another party"Quote:
Originally Posted by Molly_Millions
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10-10-2012, 11:55 PMReikaoh ok, thanks for pointing that out. *rolls eyes*Quote:
Originally Posted by Molly_Millions
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10-11-2012, 12:06 AMMolly_MillionsJoe Shmoe doesn't understand statistics when he says:Quote:
Originally Posted by Reika
It doesn't lower his chances. If 8 people are rolling, he has a 1/8 chance of getting a seal. It doesn't matter if all the other 7 people are keeping the seals for themselves, handing it to one guy in the party, or even dropping it on the floor.Quote:
<Joe Shmoe> hmmm that significantly lowers my chances of getting what I need out of hamlet defense, I'll go ahead and wait for a different party. But thank you for being honest about your intentions.
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10-11-2012, 12:08 AMReika
I think if person A is getting 5 rolls on an item while person B is getting 1 roll on that same item, person a is at a significant advantage.
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10-11-2012, 12:10 AMMolly_MillionsBut one person isn't getting 5 rolls, they are each getting one roll and doing what they wish with the seal. Yes, one person has better chances than you, I'm not disagreeing there. His chances increase, while your chances stay the same. Which is why I pointed out your jealousy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reika
if 8 people are in a party, each of them getting 1 roll, but one guy decides he's going to throw all his seals on the ground, what are your chances of getting a seal when one drops? -
10-11-2012, 12:10 AMReikathat is a nice way to put it if you want to make yourself feel better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Molly_Millions
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10-11-2012, 12:13 AMRaikkiYes, telling the truth is definitely a "nice way to put it". I agree. If someone wants to do hamlet solely to help their friend and doesn't want anything for themselves then that roll is THEIR reward for THEIR effort.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reika
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10-11-2012, 12:14 AMMamba
lol 14 pages of:
I am right, you're wrong... no I am right, you're wrong!
I think it's safe to say now that there will not be any mutual understanding on this and we should resolve this situation with:
http://familyguycutaways.com/images/...20Ambition.gif -
10-11-2012, 12:16 AMMolly_Millions
I can't believe how dense some people are... It's simple math. Jealousy doesn't change statistics.
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10-11-2012, 12:16 AMReikaYea, pretty much. We all have different opinions about how things are handled.... and different morals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mamba
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10-11-2012, 12:17 AMRaikkihttp://i.imgur.com/drFHQ.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by Mamba
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10-11-2012, 12:20 AMZantetsuken
The OP may have felt slighted, but it was due to envy not math.
The person who won and donated his seal to a friend could just as easily need the seal for himself - and lets face it, he did change his loot preference which I assume meant that he was sacrificing his chance at another drop to get the seal.
The OP voted 'yes' on the loot preference change which modified the odds. (I assume the OP understood this), so where the seal went after it was won, or whether or not the winner actually needed it is completely irrelevant.
In fact, the 'loot preference change' meant that somebody's odds to get another drop may have gone up by the same amount.
As others here have said: If this is a sticking point for you, have the ground rules set up ahead of time and don't change them midstream. -
10-11-2012, 12:26 AMReika
Well my skit really just reiterated the op's 2nd post in this thread. If they had let their intentions be known, he would have just left the party respectabally. They knew that, thats why they said nothing about it.
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10-11-2012, 12:35 AMechogame
How dare someone do whatever they want with the seal they won in a /random!
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10-11-2012, 12:43 AMMolly_Millions
So what about folks who pay party members for the drops they get in a /random?
/snicker -
10-11-2012, 12:50 AMShougunQuote:
Originally Posted by bobbygunz
If they dont need it they dont get a seal. If they get it for a friend they join the loot group, it does significantly lower your chances, no technically about it. -
10-11-2012, 12:57 AMMeatdawgQuote:
Originally Posted by bobbygunz
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Originally Posted by Chardrizard
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Originally Posted by Eliseus
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Originally Posted by Majidah
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Originally Posted by UmJammerSully
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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken
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Originally Posted by echogame
I think we are all just repeating ourselves now...Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatdawg
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10-11-2012, 12:58 AMMolly_MillionsThat depends on your agreements on loot distribution. If there is no agreement made, it's assumed that a person can do whatever they want with the loot they win in a random.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
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10-11-2012, 01:08 AMShougunYeah - on a not previously agreed upon system for PUGs the base rule is "it is yours, even if you want to drop it".Quote:
Originally Posted by Molly_Millions
I'm not 100% sure what happened for Wynn. But when I do hamlet I do not let item rot or bidding - which I tell everyone first so they aren't surprised (though I'm not against bidding in general I like when I'm leading a group for the Hamlet to be a quick in and out no silly questions going about - I leave that for other's parties :P).
It appears to me that they had a system to prevent item rot (do you need it, loot it), but did not cover friends changing things. When the friend asked to vote I think he should of said he will be changing the rates to his friend's favor. -
10-11-2012, 01:32 AMKiraHime
I havent had time to read the entire thread, so i dont know if this has been pointed out.
But the person that won the seal wasnt just a random person that did no work, he spent 20 minutes of his life in that boring hell hole. he was entitled! -
10-11-2012, 01:46 AMnokinator
you know they found spiders on mars yesterday, the worlds gonna end and there will be no more SEALS
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10-11-2012, 02:11 AMHanabira
I can see if the guy asked to change his lot after it fell. if you agree to the lot change, you cant complain about it afterwards. if you WON the lot by 3 points, would we have a 15 page thread about it? if for example, you join a linkshell's group for hamlet, and everyone in the group is giving the seal to 1 person unless you win, would you leave the group because if it?
because since if everyone wanted it for themself, or everyone gave it to 1 person, they all did equal work and they can do whatever they want with it. since your odds are the same, the only reasoning is that you dont want someone completing the stage faster than you. personally if theres such a group where everyone already has their seals, it sounds like a sound group that gets stuff done. -
10-11-2012, 02:51 AMWynn
Guys I just want to reiterate because several people either are getting the wrong impression or didn't actually understand what I've been trying to say. So I'd like to make one last comment to be clear.
This isn't about me not getting the seal though I do feel I should have won on that lot. As I said right in post one, I had already won a seal. This isn't envy or jealousy or anything like that.
I would have been very happy if they guy who actually won needed it and got it. I would have been very happy for the other guy rolling if he won. I would have been very happy for the guy that actually rolled a zero yet got the seal if he had legitimately won it in his actual roll.
My whole point was that I didn't feel that what happened was ethically sound based on not being upfront about what was going on. And I was curious to see what everyone else thought about what actually happened.
However, it doesn't seem like some people understand what actually happened.
We aren't talking about some pre-agreed upon set up or an entire party looting on something.
The scenario was three people rolling on an item. Just three. One of the other members changes their loot at the start of a run to that item without divulging that they planned to roll for one of the people who was already rolling on the item. This added an extra roll which reduces the chances of the other two players and doubles the rolls for the remaining player of the three. This is not equitable.
The omission of that information is what I had a problem with because I would not have agreed to it.
And of course, some of you do understand what actually happened and still feel what happened was ok. And while I think that is morally reprehensible, I expected at least some people to genuinely feel that way. I just didn't expect it to the level that we actually saw which was certainly interesting.
The purpose of this thread has definitely been fulfilled since I have my answers.
I thank you all for your responses. -
10-11-2012, 02:55 AMMisteI think I understand what Molly is trying to say. Basically when you enter a Hamlet with 8 people with no rules setup, you have a 1/8 chance at anything. Keeping in mind you cannot do Hamlet with less or more than 8. Say 2/8 of those people do not need seals then that makes the 6/8 left have a 1/6 chance of a seal instead of a 1/8, BUT, that is just LUCKY for them that two people happen to be there just for gear. Because you could quite possibly join a party where all 8 need seals. Say you go into Hyrstmill with 8. This time they setup who is lotting on what and you can only pick one thing. 2/8 people pick Militia Robe. 1/8 picks Hamlet Cutter Hat. 5/8 pick seals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Molly_Millions
So the people lotting Robe have 1/2 chance
The people lotting Cutter Hat have 1/1 chance
The people lotting Seals have 5/8 chance
If you happen to be in the group lotting seals, unfortunately you have worse luck than the other people in the group, cause unfortunately you joined a group that more people needed seals, BUT, you are still lucky that not ALL 8 needed seals. Then same scenario, say one of the people lotting Robe changed their mind and changed it to a Seal. You got unlucky they happened to want a seal too, but the other person lotting Robe got lucky they changed their lot, since now they are 1/1 for the Robe. So what Molly was trying to say was no matter where that 8th persons lot goes, it will lower one other persons %, but it will up someone elses. You cannot do Hamlet with 7, so that 8ths persons lot roll has to go somewhere. Where they choose may be lucky, or unlucky for one individual.
I sympathize with OP that the parties in question did not express their intentions because then the group could decide where they stand on letting them do that, but Wynn don't worry, you'll get your seals soon I am sure ^^ -
10-11-2012, 02:59 AMHanabira
i dont think its any of your business if he plans on keeping it or passing it to a friend. he doesnt owe you any explanation as to why he changes his lot, you said he could change it, he did and just so happen to have won. i can -almost- see if you said no he cant change, but then got out-voted. but cmon.. you said yes.
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10-11-2012, 03:01 AMMolly_Millions
Here's a good way to look at it: When doing hamlet defense, always assume everyone will roll for a seal. When it turns out that only 5 are gonna roll (even when only 4 need it) you have better chances than what you expected.
Also, fighting over drops is a good way to lose friends. -
10-11-2012, 03:26 AMBublex
Greetings,
I would like to thank you all for your comments. We feel this thread has run its course, so it will now be closed.
Regards,