Yoshida-san - GLOBAL Servers and Balancing Tweaks Instead of Regional Servers

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elexia

Enjoy your lag as you log into any MMORPG as lag will always exist.

---

Of course it will.

But by selecting a datacenter that's closer to my location, it will help to reduce the lag to where it's negligible.

I'm not a masochist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elexia

Enjoy your lag as you log into any MMORPG as lag will always exist.

---

What are you talking about? Everything will be damn near realtime for these regional server guys. TRUE STORY!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jynx

What are you talking about? Everything will be damn near realtime for these regional server guys. TRUE STORY!

---

Indeed, in World of Warcraft I used to play on Blackrock server, which was on the Los Angeles Datacenter IIRC, and I never had any issues with lag.

Local Datacenters are a beneficial change.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kuzak

Indeed, in World of Warcraft I used to play on Blackrock server, which was on the Los Angeles Datacenter IIRC, and I never had any issues with lag.

---

I used to play FFXI on a Japanese server (Only servers) and I never had any issues with lag.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jynx

I used to play FFXI on a Japanese server (Only servers) and I never had any issues with lag.

---

Nice, Shiva wasn't too bad either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kuzak

Of course it will.

But by selecting a datacenter that's closer to my location, it will help to reduce the lag to where it's negligible.

I'm not a masochist.

---

That's not the case here though, the vast majority of the lag in FF14 is caused by SE's piss-poor sorry excuse of a POS server design. If that's not changed, it wouldn't matter if you're playing FF14 next door to the datacenter, you'd still have shitty lag.

Conversely, if that's fixed, then creating regional servers as a method to combat the current lag problem becomes rather pointless, as they would no longer exist.

Quote:

---

That's not the case here though, the vast majority of the lag in FF14 is caused by SE's piss-poor sorry excuse of a POS server design.

---

Except, that's being fixed too.

Less server response delay + lower ping = hallelujah!

Quote:

---

You really don't get it do you? I'm convinced you're just ignoring the point I brought up earlier because you keep responding in the exact same way, you're on auto-pilot or something.

---

Yes, I do get it, that's why I keep stating it. I don't expect my friends-of-friends-of-friends-of-friends to take any particular action. The chain ends somewhere. The loss to me from my 3rd friend's 4th friend's 6th friend is minimal. I can handle that without losing sleep, play the improved less laggy game for 5 minutes, and forget about it. For nearly all of us, these arent close, real life friends that we're moving from. And if I really feel a need to reunite, I can always create a character on the world they went to.

Friends get broken up by world merges and server transfers just the same, even if we don't label or regionalize servers. It's a fact of life, suck it up and deal with it or don't play the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Except, that's being fixed too.

Less server response delay + lower ping = hallelujah!

---

Here's on side of the arguement: Screw lag I want to be with other people around the world that I can never understand!

And here's the other side of the Argument: Lag is what we complained about all along and other people still want more lag just to be with other people around the world. That's just absurd!


Teehee

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starlord

This is the only thing I wouldn't mind. that way, people can have there "International style" Servers and the rest can be Regional based for those that have major issues with latency.

( times that a regional server would be dead, I can take that time to craft/leves/explore/quests that are soloable etc)

---

This was the strongest point of the OP. They almost lost me when they noted:

Quote:

---

Friends and Linkshells will be split and broken, and all of this in the name of the Almighty Gameplay (Lag-Free supposedly).

---

Sarcastically degrading gameplay, in any game, tells me that someone might have a better time just chatting while watching a movie. Never should you sacrifice gameplay for aesthetics or other satellite qualities of a game. Thankfully I read on and found a great deal with which I could agree. I certainly respect some of the solutions the OP provided.

I did agree with making Global specific servers (though they'll have the same issue as Ragnarok does today, which isn't that much of an issue according to most Ragnarok denizens it's just the lowest population server). The same issues of "community" will arise regardless of this particular feature.

I also agree that, as an RPG, the game shouldn't be as focused on fast twitch gameplay. As an MMO it should be more focused on team communication and strategy but if that's the way they're taking it then reducing lag to enhance gameplay, with any means necessary, is paramount. I would personally prefer if they could bring back the transitional animations as an option at the very least. So those with killer gaming rigs won't have to sacrifice aesthetic quality for gameplay or for those that don't really care for fast twitch activities can still maintain their personal sense of "immersion".

Which brings me to my final point. Giving people the option to choose a server is a good thing. It will always be a good thing. If it destroys a persons "sense" of community then so be it honestly. It is apparent to anyone that if someone's community collapses over a server transition, then that person's "community" wasn't strong enough.

Govern to the individual to make their own choices. If someone's forced to be your friend, I'd be questioning the support structure of said friendship. In that situation, at best, they are probably just an acquaintance. If a "friend" can't stay in contact with someone over a server transition then could they really be considered a friend? Even operating at the most base levels of a relationship's foundation, if a friend can't stay a friend after a server transition then they were just a fair whether friend, at best, in the first place. If that is so, then you should be able to find just as many of these kinds of "friends" on your new server. Even then, the content finder should still operate in a way that you could still play with them. So the complaint of this feature disabling a community is a wash.

The community is one of the few things that is actually put into our control as players, and rightfully so. We all have different ideas of what a community is and what a community should be. I'd wager that most of us have many different communities that we are a part of simultaneously, but it's up to us as individuals to fulfill our role to maintain that community. It's not up to the development team to designate communities for us, and they haven't in any way shape or form. At least not in XIV. We choose the communities we're a part of based on the information we are given. They've promoted avenues in order for us to build communities but they haven't forced us into any particular one.

They did force us into communities in XI for many years. You didn't have a choice of server. You were literally forced into a sub-community upon character creation.

The XIV development team, in this regard, is undoubtedly giving us more than taking away. It's up to us as individuals to maintain our own relationships. We need to learn to differentiate between "acquaintances" and "friends" and proceed accordingly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starlord

Here's on side of the arguement: Screw lag I want to be with other people around the world that I can never understand!

And here's the other side of the Argument: Lag is what we complained about all along and other people still want more lag just to be with other people around the world. That's just absurd!


Teehee

---

Yup because that's what both parties are saying exactly. Nice hyperbole.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Except, that's being fixed too.

Less server response delay + lower ping = hallelujah!

---

Then it becomes a question of whether the negligible ping different warrant forcing the split in community. You obviously think it does, but I as part of a multi-region LS that covers all major areas including NA, EU, and Asia, do not. Moreover, as an EVE player, I find the argument that local datacenter is oh-so-important to be laughable at best. We have an unsharded game with the server cluster located in UK, yet I don't hear the Russians or the Japanese or anyone for that matter complaining about not having local datacenters, and PVP in EVE is FAR more SRS BIZNZ than your typical themepark MMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Friends get broken up by world merges and server transfers just the same, even if we don't label or regionalize servers. It's a fact of life, suck it up and deal with it or don't play the game.

---

/shrug, it's also a fact of life that people may have different opinions and priorities than you, suck it up and deal with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aenarion

That's not the case here though, the vast majority of the lag in FF14 is caused by SE's piss-poor sorry excuse of a POS server design. If that's not changed, it wouldn't matter if you're playing FF14 next door to the datacenter, you'd still have shitty lag.

Conversely, if that's fixed, then creating regional servers as a method to combat the current lag problem becomes rather pointless, as they would no longer exist.

---

Yes, I understand that as well. What I was referring to was the new infrastructure that will be coming with 2.0.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jynx

Yup because that's what both parties are saying exactly. Nice hyperbole.

---

Had to look up Hyperbole, such a funny name :P. Far from exaggerating, One side wants the lag with Global friends, other side wants faster connection/latency etc.. and then there are some in the middle that want both less lag and worldwide MMO.

We all want everything out of an MMO.. But "When you want everything out of something, you'll wide up with nothing" A wise old man told me this ( My grandfather R.I.P)

It's a old chinese proverb. A man who chases two rabbits lets them both get away, and like everything it doesn't apply to all aspects of life.

Really the people in the middleground are the people in the right, because the new servers could still be in Japan and would still experience less lag. They were connected to Japan at gamescone with no visible lag on commands or anything showing that the game is much more responsive than it currently is (Probably due to letting more stuff be checked client side).

But the people for the data centers either don't think it will be enough or are just ignorant to the fact the servers were the issue and not the latency.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starlord

One side wants the lag with Global friends, other side wants faster connection/latency etc.. and then there are some in the middle that want both less lag and worldwide MMO.

---

To me it's more like one side wants global community and is willing to accept the negligible latency that comes with it, and another side that wants absolute least amount of latency at all costs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jynx

It's a old chinese proverb. A man who chases two rabbits lets them both get away, and like everything it doesn't apply to all aspects of life.

Really the people in the middleground are the people in the right, because the new servers could still be in Japan and would still experience less lag. They were connected to Japan at gamescone with no visible lag on commands or anything showing that the game is much more responsive than it currently is (Probably due to letting more stuff be checked client side).

But the people for the data centers either don't think it will be enough or are just ignorant to the fact the servers were the issue and not the latency.

---

Didn't the Japanese players in FFXI have a small advantage when it came to camping HNMs due to lower latency?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aenarion

To me it's more like one side wants global community and is willing to accept the negligible latency that comes with it, and another side that wants absolute least amount of latency at all costs.

---

Yeah that seems more accurate. I just can't wait for ARR to get here and be done with the back and forth and just play this potential " Awesome" game. That's all that matters to me in the end, that I'm playing an awesome game. The Server related stuff will settle down some time after Launch. People left 1.0 because the game was Horrible, not so much about the servers ( though they were a major issue as well).

Servers playable + Game Awesome= Success Regional or Global it doesn't matter because in the end I'm playing an awesome game with the servers not stopping me from doing what I'm doing. I'll make new friends keep in contact with the old and we will all be playing happily :D.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kuzak

Didn't the Japanese players in FFXI have a small advantage when it came to camping HNMs due to lower latency?

---

I've never had a hard time outclaiming Japanese players. But I guess I must be a special exception like everything I do.

Also it's not like there is anything in the game you need to claim faster on, considering 9/10ths of the game is going to be crammed into instances anyways.

didnt you all ask for Regional Servers anyway or is that you people have no idea what you want

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by casevi

didnt you all ask for Regional Servers anyway or is that you people have no idea what you want

---

I don't remember anyone asking for regional servers before they told us about them. That's when a bunch of people jumped on the idea, concidering it was damn near unthinkable that they would do it in the first place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jynx

Also it's not like there is anything in the game you need to claim faster on, considering 9/10ths of the game is going to be crammed into instances anyways.

---

And thank goodness for that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by casevi

didnt you all ask for Regional Servers anyway or is that you people have no idea what you want

---

There was on other gaming forums. Many of those that complained were from other MMOs that had regional servers. It's a reasonable request when you think about engaging end-game content.

Quote:

---

Then it becomes a question of whether the negligible ping different warrant forcing the split in community.

---

Except that the ping difference usually isn't negligible for people outside of Japan. a .1~.2 second difference might not seem like a lot to you, but try playing your favorite client-server action game with a 50ms ping, then try playing it with a 250ms ping and see how negligible the difference is then. Answer: it's not. A ping like that is a massive disadvantage, especially when PvP is concerned.

If I played Team Fortress 2, I wouldn't be caught dead on a server with a 200+ ping. Well actually, I would be, because I'd be likely to get killed by substantially inferior players.

Yes, FFXIV isn't the same kind of intense action game as that- but the point is, ping matters, whether you like to think it does or not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Except that the ping difference usually isn't negligible for people outside of Japan. a .1~.2 second difference might not seem like a lot to you, but try playing your favorite client-server action game with a 50ms ping, then try playing it with a 250ms ping and see how negligible the difference is then. Answer: it's not. A ping like that is a massive disadvantage, especially when PvP is concerned.

If I played Team Fortress 2, I wouldn't be caught dead on a server with a 200+ ping. Well actually, I would be, because I'd be likely to get killed by substantially inferior players.

Yes, FFXIV isn't the same kind of intense action game as that- but the point is, ping matters, whether you like to think it does or not.

---

That is the crux of the argument right there, nobody ever said latency doesn't matter, but for a game like ffxiv, its impact is arguable at best.

Also, trying to use FPS to illustrate the importance of latency when the game in question is a MMO is ignorant at best, and disingenuous at worst, as the game style and mechanic has everything to do with how important latency is to the game. How about you using another MMO to show your point instead like I have?

As I said earlier, in Eve Online, the single most purest, most serious, and most extremely PVP oriented MMO of them all, geographical latency isn't even remotely a concern, despite a significant portion of the game population being located far from the server's location. By your logic, Eve players should be up in arms over the lack of local data centers.

Quote:

---

That is the crux of the argument right there, nobody ever said latency doesn't matter, but for a game like ffxiv, its impact is arguable at best.

Also, trying to use FPS to illustrate the importance of latency when the game in question is a MMO is ignorant at best, and disingenuous at worst,

---

It's not ignorant or disingenuous at all. Yes, the impact is arguably lower, but there is still an impact. Fight over the amount of impact all you want, but I consider any impact unacceptable.

Yoshida has mentioned quickening the battle tempo a lot. The faster the game plays, the more important ping will become. Its very likely to matter more in 2.0 than it matters now.

Quote:

---

Eve players should be up in arms over the lack of local data centers.

---

A lack of complaint doesn't mean they wouldn't be happier if network latency was reduced. Also, the very nature of how EVE seems to work makes network performance less important. Beyond that, this is apples and oranges. What works for EVE doesn't necessarily work for other games.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aenarion

That is the crux of the argument right there, nobody ever said latency doesn't matter, but for a game like ffxiv, its impact is arguable at best.

Also, trying to use FPS to illustrate the importance of latency when the game in question is a MMO is ignorant at best, and disingenuous at worst, as the game style and mechanic has everything to do with how important latency is to the game. How about you using another MMO to show your point instead like I have?

As I said earlier, in Eve Online, the single most purest, most serious, and most extremely PVP oriented MMO of them all, geographical latency isn't even remotely a concern, despite a significant portion of the game population being located far from the server's location. By your logic, Eve players should be up in arms over the lack of local data centers.

---

Doing raids in World of Fantasy with a constant ping of 250+ WILL BE SO MUCH FUUUUN!

I just checked and my ping to Durandal is 240ms. That is down right awful for a game that wants to have quick reaction based pve. Which is why sometimes I see crap like getting hit by cracks or circles on ifrit when I am not even standing in them.

So yes regional servers are needed for better gameplay.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zumi

Which is why sometimes I see crap like getting hit by cracks or circles on ifrit when I am not even standing in them.

---

So that's why the Japanese community has the same issues with Ifrit as well? .24 seconds is not whats causing you to be hit by cracks, useless server checks are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jynx

So that's why the Japanese community has the same issues with Ifrit as well? .24 seconds is not whats causing you to be hit by cracks, useless server checks are.

---

Well on the WoW servers I have 50ms ping, if I move out of fire or circles or crap the boss puts on the ground I don't get hit ever. That's almost a 200ms difference. When you have stuff that gives you like 1 sec or so to react you need low latency to be successful.

Wow Servers also don't have useless server checks, so you could probably dodge those with even 200ms ping extra without breaking a sweat or even noticing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jynx

So that's why the Japanese community has the same issues with Ifrit as well? .24 seconds is not whats causing you to be hit by cracks, useless server checks are.

---

Those .24 seconds can make a difference. Useless server check + unnecessary latency = problem. Lower latency ALWAYS helps. Every single one of those useless server checks would take .24 seconds less time to complete.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Lower latency ALWAYS helps.

---

At what cost?

Well you got to look at it on SE perspective: what will Majority of the crowd ( not the Forums) would like most? Global or Regional. The entire forums (JP/NA/EU) roughly 5,000 "Active" forum posters ( just "Hyperbole" that XD) I love learning ^.^. which is practically a "speck" of what the population outside these forums. What would the Majority of the players as a whole want? (Regional or Global?)

Yet another Mystery.

It's something we are unable to guess on. (My bets would be regional due to a general Xenophobia in the general population of anywhere) But that doesn't mean we should take a step backward in multi-cultural relations because it's not what people want.

In general most people don't know/care where a server is located or how it effects their gameplay. Only the min/maxers give a toss about .3 seconds.

I don't see how my last post was very offensive. I really don't think JP players as a whole want international servers. It's just the weeaboos. The only people in this thread defending the idea are FFXI nostalgia driven players who don't understand it could have been done then, but not anymore.

You didn't have lag in XI? Excuse me? Were you even around during HNM when they were introduced? JP were the only ones who got claim due to a few seconds delay for EU/NA. Everything else in XI's system didn't really require a quick response anyway. The combat is terribly slow compared to today's games and there was zero dodging. If you had hate on an enemy, you couldn't just run behind it to escape a cone attack because the server always registered the mob facing you even if it looked like you were behind it. You could have lag in XI.

Seriously, do we need to bring up such a barbaric game to make a point anyway? It's been out for at least 10 freakin' years. Let it go and move forward.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

I don't see how my last post was very offensive. I really don't think JP players as a whole want international servers. It's just the weeaboos. The only people in this thread defending the idea are FFXI nostalgia driven players who don't understand it could have been done then, but not anymore.

You didn't have lag in XI? Excuse me? Were you even around during HNM when they were introduced? JP were the only ones who got claim due to a few seconds delay for EU/NA. Everything else in XI's system didn't really require a quick response anyway. The combat is terribly slow compared to today's games and there was zero dodging. If you had hate on an enemy, you couldn't just run behind it to escape a cone attack because the server always registered the mob facing you even if it looked like you were behind it. You could have lag in XI.

Seriously, do we need to bring up such a barbaric game to make a point anyway? It's been out for at least 10 freakin' years. Let it go and move forward.

---

and you are one of the blind followers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rokien

and you are one of the blind followers.

---

Are we really going to resort to this type of thing? Some people need to get their head out of the past I swear -.-.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jynx

Wow Servers also don't have useless server checks, so you could probably dodge those with even 200ms ping extra without breaking a sweat or even noticing.

---

Not really. To my recollection, when Naxx40 was retuned to 10/25-man Naxx, they had to change the timing on attacks and AoE pulses (Heigan and Thaddius come to mind) to make it less painful on high latency players, like those from EU and Oceania. A lot of the encounter design does take that into consideration now. You're right that WoW doesn't have the amount of checks between the server and the client, but even without those things weren't peachy and perfect for EU and Oceania players on US servers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jynx

At what cost?

---

At a cost quite clearly a majority of the playerbase finds acceptable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

It's not ignorant or disingenuous at all. Yes, the impact is arguably lower, but there is still an impact. Fight over the amount of impact all you want, but I consider any impact unacceptable.

---

"arguably lower"? how about MASSIVELY lower? :rolleyes: THIS is what I mean by disingenuous, when you try to imply the effect of latency is the same or nearly the same for FPS and MMO, which is categorically false.

Any impact is unacceptable? you'd best move your house next to one of those datacenter then, with a fiber cable directly connected to SE's server :rolleyes: Also, while you're at it, I suggest you tell photons and electrons to move faster than the speed of light, wouldn't want those to have any impact on your MMO :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Yoshida has mentioned quickening the battle tempo a lot. The faster the game plays, the more important ping will become. Its very likely to matter more in 2.0 than it matters now.

---

Without actual empirical data, these conjectures are pointless, as you don't actually know how and how much things are changing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

A lack of complaint doesn't mean they wouldn't be happier if network latency was reduced. Also, the very nature of how EVE seems to work makes network performance less important. Beyond that, this is apples and oranges. What works for EVE doesn't necessarily work for other games.

---

Oh ffs, don't you even try to tell me what Eve or Eve players are like, as you haven't the first clue. You think arguments and complains here are bad? it's got nothing on Eve-O's forums. If there's anything remotely worth complaining about (including things not worth complaining about), someone in Eve have complained incessantly about it, and there hasn't been any in the 7+ years of Eve that I've played about latency due to server being located in UK.

Oh, and "the very nature of how EVE seems to work makes network performance less important"? can you talk out of your xxx more? Just exactly which part of EVE makes network performance less important? is it the single shard environment that included every single Eve player from all over the world, with concurrent users numbering well into the mid 40,000? or the massive battles involving up to over 3,000 players in the same location, more than what many sharded MMO have active on an entire server? or the gameplay that often requires millisecond reaction for you to catch your prey before they escape? yea, network performance and latency sure matters less in Eve :rolleyes:

Also, don't even start with your what works for Eve doesn't necessarily work for other game speech, especially when you have no problem using FPS games for your arguments. Also, what works for Eve is having actually good server design and architecture, something I'm sure will work for just about every online game.

While you're certainly entitled to your own opinions, stop trying to twist everything to fit your own ideas.