Worqor Chirteh feedback

I love the cliffs in the map with how quick you get on there, it offers me more uses to use it and ambush people than shatter.

We just won a game where we were stamped 200-900-900 at 5 min on this map. We won with the help of a 2nd S rank spawning near our base, very far away from the 1st S-rank contested by the two other teams. Why ? Why can 2 S-rank Triumphs spawn (so far away) over the same period of time ? The other 2 teams were just fighting each other, paying us no mind until the last seconds. Also, the games just end too quickly after they spawn, due to this unbalance often happening (and even too fast to sometimes be able to catch up or follow up as teams).

N.B.: I still commend my team, we did a formidable work slowly getting back into the game. The end was just... between anticlimactic and unbelievable.

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Originally Posted by aereniil

==> If I do all of these, then you'll just leave, resent me, kick me, blacklist me, or even insult me if you can. It would be a nightmare to play for everyone else. So why wouldn't it also apply* in PvP ? (*Because FFXIV is not a game that is heavily focused on PvP content ? Is it a fair enough reason ?)

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Yeah, we can agree on this. My original post did not differentiate between players who are simply not good at the mode, and players who are intentionally playing poorly/refusing to play. The point I was trying to make was that even people who mainly queue for the rewards and aren't really interested in learning pvp-specific skills can still be a net positive to the team if they're willing to follow a group's gameplan. Extra bodies and extra firepower go a long way in a mode with a comparatively high time-to-kill. I have no problem with learning the ropes and having a poor k/d ratio in fights so long as someone is trying to improve. I certainly sported some awful statlines when learning the mode, but the difference is I was trying to be better.

The players that drive me up the wall are the ones who refuse to try at all. Players in this game will openly discuss their intention to feed "to get the game over faster", or that "we're only here for the EXP/glam". They'll scoff at and dismiss Commanders attempting to shotcall or people trying to arrange a pinch/flank. Some of them AFK, but many of them just feed instead or go on the doomed ventures I mentioned before. And these open declarations of bad teamwork are just tolerated, I assume, for subscription retention purposes. A summoner who doesn't know when to retreat or read the flow of battle can go 1-7-15 and deal 550k damage, taking 800k - this is fine effort, if not ideal performances. But when I see a Bard go 0-4-2 with a total damage dealt of 70k, this is not a skill issue anymore; this is refusal to participate.

This isn't the only map with those issues, to be clear. Shatter has a big problem with ice lickers who simply stand and wait around waiting for the safe ice to spawn, and when there is no safe/mid ice they make suicidal runs into enemy safe ices to feed. I've seen players on my team who spend the entire match in the safe ice pit. Many teams in Secure will ride around endlessly in a pesudo-hunt train, only attempting a desperate pinch on a leading enemy team when the game is already out of reach, then peeling off as if one mid fight will make up an 800 point deficit. But the objective spawn rate on Worqor 'legitimizes' this type of thinking. An enemy team can be sitting with a 1350-1200-900 lead and multiple people on your team will break off trying to steal an A-rank outside the enemy 900-point team's spawn rather than pinch lead team at a B-rank that is already contested between them and the other team, ignoring callouts and pleas to join the fight.

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Originally Posted by Maldbeast

Yeah, we can agree on this. My original post did not differentiate between players who are simply not good at the mode, and players who are intentionally playing poorly/refusing to play. The point I was trying to make was that even people who mainly queue for the rewards and aren't really interested in learning pvp-specific skills can still be a net positive to the team if they're willing to follow a group's gameplan. Extra bodies and extra firepower go a long way in a mode with a comparatively high time-to-kill. I have no problem with learning the ropes and having a poor k/d ratio in fights so long as someone is trying to improve. I certainly sported some awful statlines when learning the mode, but the difference is I was trying to be better.

The players that drive me up the wall are the ones who refuse to try at all. Players in this game will openly discuss their intention to feed "to get the game over faster", or that "we're only here for the EXP/glam". They'll scoff at and dismiss Commanders attempting to shotcall or people trying to arrange a pinch/flank. Some of them AFK, but many of them just feed instead or go on the doomed ventures I mentioned before. And these open declarations of bad teamwork are just tolerated, I assume, for subscription retention purposes. A summoner who doesn't know when to retreat or read the flow of battle can go 1-7-15 and deal 550k damage, taking 800k - this is fine effort, if not ideal performances. But when I see a Bard go 0-4-2 with a total damage dealt of 70k, this is not a skill issue anymore; this is refusal to participate.

This isn't the only map with those issues, to be clear. Shatter has a big problem with ice lickers who simply stand and wait around waiting for the safe ice to spawn, and when there is no safe/mid ice they make suicidal runs into enemy safe ices to feed. I've seen players on my team who spend the entire match in the safe ice pit. Many teams in Secure will ride around endlessly in a pesudo-hunt train, only attempting a desperate pinch on a leading enemy team when the game is already out of reach, then peeling off as if one mid fight will make up an 800 point deficit. But the objective spawn rate on Worqor 'legitimizes' this type of thinking. An enemy team can be sitting with a 1350-1200-900 lead and multiple people on your team will break off trying to steal an A-rank outside the enemy 900-point team's spawn rather than pinch lead team at a B-rank that is already contested between them and the other team, ignoring callouts and pleas to join the fight.

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You pointed them right, those players that deserve more attention than supposedly "cheating premades" (and no problem, I got your point in the original post, sorry if I may have poorly let think the contrary).
And you summed up the new map's flaws perfectly !

I feel this feedback is mostly very onesided and clear. So it should be easy to fix and take the correct steps like the community recommends it. There are different approaches with all the same goal.
If until next major patch there is no adjustment though, it would show how out of touch everything is...People still play, and have fun with the game, I hope these small adjustments won't take a year. Or this game is truly done.

As of today's update:

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During Worqor Chirteh (Triumph) campaigns, triumphs will now appear more frequently near the center of the map.

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We'll have to see if the change helps with anything.

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Originally Posted by Sunhwapark

As of today's update:


We'll have to see if the change helps with anything.

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I say there are less people spliting outside of the pit, but now there are more people and teams getting sandwiched over and over in the middle, so .... I'm divided on the total benefit of this update.

However, if they keep the idea of allowing 2 S ranks to spawn over the same period of time (maybe to force teams to adapt, shorten games, or make things "spicy", idk),
==> at least, they should make so that they don't spawn at opposite sides of the map or not so far away from each other (or only in the middle)
Otherwise, this map is too huge for this, there is a team that is deemed to get an easy claim that way (and not always the lowest ranking one), unless for the very rare and coincidental situation where every teams split at the same time.

Hasn't really made that much of a difference. Player behavior is still the same. Chasing nodes instead of fighting, then being shocked that they can't hold/fight back on nodes late game vs teams with better BH. Still far too much running. So many matches, I see 10+ people on uncontested triumphs. I can't wait for this map to come off daily rotation and have it's own separate day.

It still blows my mind that they supposedly designed this map to encourage pvp.

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Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

Hasn't really made that much of a difference. Player behavior is still the same. Chasing nodes instead of fighting, then being shocked that they can't hold/fight back on nodes late game vs teams with better BH. Still far too much running. So many matches, I see 10+ people on uncontested triumphs. I can't wait for this map to come off daily rotation and have it's own separate day.

It still blows my mind that they supposedly designed this map to encourage pvp.

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They really didn't address this behavorial issue (whether they even know about it), and now that the "hype" is down for me, I finally see how "Mario Kart"-like this map is in the negative sense (compared to other maps which are in fact more fun and not so bad than I thought, now xD). Also, after getting it for the ~900th time (over 1349 games), it's starting to annoy me xD (yay yay, "queue for the map you want" and so on, haha)

I feel like the biggest issue is just the map layout. It just feels off. SR and Onsal, you can pretty much run in a straight line to any engagement and then choose which side you want to engage from. Movement on those maps feels quicker. Sure, you might still miss the Onsal node but, more often than not, you can get anywhere and fight. Worqor, it feels like there are just too many environmental blocks that force you to run around. There is no real direct path to any edge engagement, if you are the far team.

NE hill node. If you are blue, unless you have an aggressive team, you will almost never see any 3-way fighting there. It takes too long to go red side to engage. If you go yellow side, you have to contend with any re-spawners.
SE caves. You will almost never see red pinch blue here, cause it takes too long to run through mid, up ramp and along the blue path to cave entrance. And you have to contend with any blue re-spawners that will be behind you.
SW platform is probably the easiest out of them, as yellow can pinch on blue and then escape over the cliffs to mid. But typically you will never see yellow engaging on the red side of that platform.

The only direct engagement is mid and, good luck with that, if you have a team that doesn't want to pvp but would rather stay outside and collect edge nodes.

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Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

I feel like the biggest issue is just the map layout. It just feels off. SR and Onsal, you can pretty much run in a straight line to any engagement and then choose which side you want to engage from. Movement on those maps feels quicker. Sure, you might still miss the Onsal node but, more often than not, you can get anywhere and fight. Worqor, it feels like there are just too many environmental blocks that force you to run around. There is no real direct path to any edge engagement, if you are the far team.

NE hill node. If you are blue, unless you have an aggressive team, you will almost never see any 3-way fighting there. It takes too long to go red side to engage. If you go yellow side, you have to contend with any re-spawners.
SE caves. You will almost never see red pinch blue here, cause it takes too long to run through mid, up ramp and along the blue path to cave entrance. And you have to contend with any blue re-spawners that will be behind you.
SW platform is probably the easiest out of them, as yellow can pinch on blue and then escape over the cliffs to mid. But typically you will never see yellow engaging on the red side of that platform.

The only direct engagement is mid and, good luck with that, if you have a team that doesn't want to pvp but would rather stay outside and collect edge nodes.

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I applaud and bow, nothing more to add to this briliant analysis.

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Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

Player behavior is still the same. Chasing nodes instead of fighting, then being shocked that they can't hold/fight back on nodes late game vs teams with better BH.

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Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

There are roads which must not be followed, armies which must not be attacked, towns which must not be besieged, positions which must not be contested, commands of the sovereign which must not be obeyed.

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Strategy is part of PvP. I wish Frontlines maps would encourage picking your fights strategically more, not less.

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Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

The highest excellence is winning without fighting, not decimating every adversary you encounter.

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Originally Posted by LeCorbeaux

Strategy is part of PvP. I wish Frontlines maps would encourage picking your fights strategically more, not less.

There are roads which must not be followed, armies which must not be attacked, towns which must not be besieged, positions which must not be contested, commands of the sovereign which must not be obeyed. - Sun Tzu

The highest excellence is winning without fighting, not decimating every adversary you encounter. - Sun Tzu

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You're right. i'd add that

1) If only we were in the real world, and that every players in the teams always had a consistent level of PvP/"military" professionnalism (a minimum, like thinking about the best strategy at the moment or follow orders that matter)
2) Unfortunately, most of those who don't attack or avoid fighting will get rolled by BH-filled teams in a majority of cases. I'm speaking about statistics/numbers over hundreds of games.
3) Luck is too important in Frontline. Luck can help both the fighting and the non-fighting teams (be it your team's spawn position, S rank spawns, or ground mechanics positions)
4) To apply "strategy" with 24 players at the same time often need at least one wise general who knows what they do and which correct orders to give. And of course, a team ready to listen to these orders (and if possible, adapt your strategy to theirs). With the current state of Frontline, it rarely happens or only 1 or 2 teams benefit from it.

Otherwise, everyone need to think and act in synergy and trust towards the best decisions, all by themselves.

5) When you add the difference/unbalance in skills (including premades), most games with teams fighting where it needs to be fought win over non-fighting teams (excluding luck factor). This is consistently true for teams with a few players (often premades) that play particularly well together and individually. "Carry them all!", I say.


But of course many teams that only went after kills and fights also lose games. The most consistent winner teams are those who balance the objectives and the right fights, while being lucky and adaptative enough.

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Originally Posted by LeCorbeaux

Strategy is part of PvP. I wish Frontlines maps would encourage picking your fights strategically more, not less.

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Sorry but that makes no sense. Are you seriously suggesting that the best way to win in Frontlines is by not pvping?

Providing you are winning engagements, every kill is worth 8 pts. 7 players killed is worth more than a B rank. Not just that, but you drain those same points from the other team. Obviously, you dont want to sustain losses. But this idea that fighting in PVP should be discouraged, or is somehow pointless, is so alien to me. It's pvp. You fight to win. Yes, objectives matter and shouldn't be ignored. What good is an objective if you can't hold it or attack it?

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Originally Posted by LeCorbeaux

"Quote Originally Posted by Sun Tzu
There are roads which must not be followed, armies which must not be attacked, towns which must not be besieged, positions which must not be contested, commands of the sovereign which must not be obeyed."

Strategy is part of PvP. I wish Frontlines maps would encourage picking your fights strategically more, not less.

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Lol. Art of war...
It's a good thing sun tzu wasn't playing frontlines and there is no BH irl.

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Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

Are you seriously suggesting that the best way to win in Frontlines is by not pvping?

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No, I'm seriously suggesting that designing Frontlines should take into account all levels of PvP - individual, tactical (How to approach the OpFor in front of us?), operational (Which objectives to tackle next, given the current situation?) and strategic (What should we concentrate on, and which objectives to ignore or just see as targets of opportunity for this fight?). Maybe even add logistical aspects if you want to include DoL and DoH classes into the mix.

That's an iterative process, and I'm not even going to pretend I have a ready-to-use solution. My personal preferences would include changing the maps so that there are clear lines of defence and avenues of attack, that it's dynamic (due to time passing, player actions, and random events) with structures like walls and bridges not being purely static, and that it gives us time to strategise (Maybe an Eorzean day, 70 minutes of real time?), and adding forward spawning points players can create and have to defend (so that you never know where OpFor is coming from unless you are diligent about scouting).

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Originally Posted by LeCorbeaux

No, I'm seriously suggesting that designing Frontlines should take into account all levels of PvP - individual, tactical (How to approach the OpFor in front of us?), operational (Which objectives to tackle next, given the current situation?) and strategic (What should we concentrate on, and which objectives to ignore or just see as targets of opportunity for this fight?). Maybe even add logistical aspects if you want to include DoL and DoH classes into the mix.

That's an iterative process, and I'm not even going to pretend I have a ready-to-use solution. My personal preferences would include changing the maps so that there are clear lines of defence and avenues of attack, that it's dynamic (due to time passing, player actions, and random events) with structures like walls and bridges not being purely static, and that it gives us time to strategise (Maybe an Eorzean day, 70 minutes of real time?), and adding forward spawning points players can create and have to defend (so that you never know where OpFor is coming from unless you are diligent about scouting).

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I believe you are talking about starcraft. Do you think the mode you are describing would be popular? (enough to play for 70 minutes...who even has an hour to drop non stop... )

Explaining strategy to someone in real time in frontlines is like... i can't even think of a more tedious and pointless thing to do...

I'm just coming at it from my experiences with PvP in Lineage II (which has two-hour long castle sieges all over the overworld, and not following people who know what they're doing means you're just meat for the grinder) and PlanetSide 2 (which, if you don't pay attention to what everyone else is doing and the comms of your side, means you will just play a bad shooter and will occasionally be blown up or sniped from range without any idea where that came from). As to who would play it? Well, I know what I like, and I totally would.

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Originally Posted by LeCorbeaux

No, I'm seriously suggesting that designing Frontlines should take into account all levels of PvP - individual, tactical (How to approach the OpFor in front of us?), operational (Which objectives to tackle next, given the current situation?) and strategic (What should we concentrate on, and which objectives to ignore or just see as targets of opportunity for this fight?). Maybe even add logistical aspects if you want to include DoL and DoH classes into the mix.

That's an iterative process, and I'm not even going to pretend I have a ready-to-use solution. My personal preferences would include changing the maps so that there are clear lines of defence and avenues of attack, that it's dynamic (due to time passing, player actions, and random events) with structures like walls and bridges not being purely static, and that it gives us time to strategise (Maybe an Eorzean day, 70 minutes of real time?), and adding forward spawning points players can create and have to defend (so that you never know where OpFor is coming from unless you are diligent about scouting).

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Honestly, I'd love it, but that's definitely completely out of the scope of FL. That's a whole other beast.
I don't think it would fit within their mcdonaldized approach to everything in XIV, but who knows. PvP has always been the odd one.

This mode is irredeemable.
This whole mode is a just a mistake tbh.
If you think Frontline cannot be any shittier, they come up with Worqor Shitteh.

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Originally Posted by tsuchii

This mode is irredeemable.
This whole mode is a just a mistake tbh.
If you think Frontline cannot be any shittier, they come up with Worqor Shitteh.

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Interesting. How blissful I must hate that I like Frontline, then x)

Seriously, maybe it's good to see some variety for everyone joining this mode, even if that's their worst time or that they don't care about it.

In my opinion, the new map is just another try to get new players into this content. And for the best and the worst, for now at least, I think SE did well on this bargain
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Each person has their own preference, after all, as I find less enjoyable maps than this one (Secure or the more enjoyable Shatter) and much more fun maps than Worqor (Onsal Hakair and Seal Rock).

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Originally Posted by aereniil

Interesting. How blissful I must hate that I like Frontline, then x)

Seriously, maybe it's good to see some variety for everyone joining this mode, even if that's their worst time or that they don't care about it.

In my opinion, the new map is just another try to get new players into this content. And for the best and the worst, for now at least, I think SE did well on this bargain
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Each person has their own preference, after all, as I find less enjoyable maps than this one (Secure or the more enjoyable Shatter) and much more fun maps than Worqor (Onsal Hakair and Seal Rock).

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It's bullshit. It is just what it is. It's an RNG mess. You can try as hard as you can and the match can still decide who wins at the end. It's honestly even worse than Shatter and I didn't think that was even remotely possibly.

It's not satisfying sweating your ass off only to lose by RNG and by far this mode is worst offender of them all. I'm almost done grinding it and fucking hell I'm not touching this hot pile of shit ever again once I get the mount.

Honestly, I'm just really salty and really frustrated. It probably among the FL modes with the least control from the players. Especially towards the end when the RNG of the placements literally just decides who wins. It's all up to chance. Chance being a huge factor in a competitive mode is sending me tbh. I still think they should just retire Frontline in general when Rival Wings exist, which is heaps better, less reliant on RNG and FAIR. 1v1v1vMap is just a terrible thing to play.

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Originally Posted by tsuchii

It's bullshit. It is just what it is. It's an RNG mess. You can try as hard as you can and the match can still decide who wins at the end. It's honestly even worse than Shatter and I didn't think that was even remotely possibly.

It's not satisfying sweating your ass off only to lose by RNG and by far this mode is worst offender of them all. I'm almost done grinding it and fucking hell I'm not touching this hot pile of shit ever again once I get the mount.

Honestly, I'm just really salty and really frustrated. It probably among the FL modes with the least control from the players. Especially towards the end when the RNG of the placements literally just decides who wins. It's all up to chance. Chance being a huge factor in a competitive mode is sending me tbh. I still think they should just retire Frontline in general when Rival Wings exist, which is heaps better, less reliant on RNG and FAIR. 1v1v1vMap is just a terrible thing to play.

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Your frustration is understandable. But then, will Square Enix ever remove Frontline or fundamentally successfully change it (core mechanics such as objectives/RNG, number of players, idk) ?
Unfortunately, from what I've gleaned, Rival Wings looks fun too but more dead right now (at least on my DC, unless you join some dedicated community server which organise/plan games, such as PvP Revival). So for us and maybe for SE, it's like "Frontline in its current state + being played by players with some help of roulette" (and the new map did bring in players, for all its flaws) vs "less often played fun Rival Wings which is spared from roulette for the best and the worst".

Lol people who glaze on rival wings. If it was as good as everyone says it is, people would queue it, regardless and it would pop at all times. It only ever happens during mogtomes.

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Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

Lol people who glaze on rival wings. If it was as good as everyone says it is, people would queue it, regardless and it would pop at all times. It only ever happens during mogtomes.

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Is RW so bad ? I found it not so bad, but it's indeed dead.

But back to topic, Worqor is at most an average and sometimes fun map that had some potential at the beginning.
The A/S ranks spawn positions/algorithm spoil more than it gives fun. The map further incentivize people to afk on nodes.
However, at least at the start, the layout and design had some potential and fun opportunities to exploit (like the three-way middle bridge or the verticality design that hide an incoming ambush or create stressful "enemy above" situations). And I find the mechanics during the game interesting, often useful (even either life-saving or stessful in a stimulating way at times), and refreshing compared to other maps.
And like it or not, no matter the reason or the "new fresh, always up map" effect, people played it over and over for weeks, so maybe that filled the objectives for SE.

But nowadays, I start to see people moving away from this map (at the benefit of other maps), so it may be done in the future.

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Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

Lol people who glaze on rival wings. If it was as good as everyone says it is, people would queue it, regardless and it would pop at all times. It only ever happens during mogtomes.

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People do indeed only queue for PVP when rewards are involved it seems. Frontlines its self lives or dies because of the roulette bonus, not because that many people actually enjoy doing it.

Crystalline Conflict likewise sees activity because its "quick" rewards depending on which team doesn't care about pushing the crystal that match, and of course Ranked has suffered for years due to a lack of incentive to play it at all for a lot of people.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

People do indeed only queue for PVP when rewards are involved it seems. Frontlines its self lives or dies because of the roulette bonus, not because that many people actually enjoy doing it.

Crystalline Conflict likewise sees activity because its "quick" rewards depending on which team doesn't care about pushing the crystal that match, and of course Ranked has suffered for years due to a lack of incentive to play it at all for a lot of people.

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you know there are a fair amount of people who queue after they have got their roulette bonus. Just look at the weekly standings. Enough that I'd say Frontlines would continue, even without the initial roulette bonus

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Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

you know there are a fair amount of people who queue after they have got their roulette bonus. Just look at the weekly standings. Enough that I'd say Frontlines would continue, even without the initial roulette bonus

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I have my doubts that Frontline queues will remain healthy if the roulette bonus ever disappeared when its literally the only reason a majority of people touch the mode at all.

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Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

you know there are a fair amount of people who queue after they have got their roulette bonus. Just look at the weekly standings. Enough that I'd say Frontlines would continue, even without the initial roulette bonus

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Frontline used to pop on its own before it had any daily. Most of the time we got the 8v8v8 version in the afternoon or even later, but in prime time during evenings you'd also see the 72 player version come up at least one time out of two you'd queue.

The daily was an attempt from SE to shove more players into the mode while getting rid of the 24 player version. Yoshida even confirmed live back then and I quote: "We're satisfied with the player amount for FL now so we don't see a reason to keep the 24 players version".

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

I have my doubts that Frontline queues will remain healthy if the roulette bonus ever disappeared when its literally the only reason a majority of people touch the mode at all.

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There are at least 97 people on Behemoth that are listed in the weekly standings. You must play 10 matches to be listed. 8 worlds on primal. True, maybe it wont be as active with sometimes 2-3 matches happening at the same time. Maybe the active time for pvp will contract. But, despite the balance, map and other issues, people want to and enjoy pvp and they enjoy Frontlines. Otherwise, they would be getting their pvp fix from CC. Or RW (seriously, if you enjoy that mode, queue up. If there are enough, it will pop. And I'd be happy for you).

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Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

There are at least 97 people on Behemoth that are listed in the weekly standings. You must play 10 matches to be listed. 8 worlds on primal. True, maybe it wont be as active with sometimes 2-3 matches happening at the same time. Maybe the active time for pvp will contract. But, despite the balance, map and other issues, people want to and enjoy pvp and they enjoy Frontlines. Otherwise, they would be getting their pvp fix from CC. Or RW (seriously, if you enjoy that mode, queue up. If there are enough, it will pop. And I'd be happy for you).

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Meh, I can barely tolerate 7 matches of Frontlines a week myself for the challenge (and I've gone whole weeks with 0 wins for that matter), and this will thankfully be my last week once I max out the Series XP and go back to not queuing at all until next season.

Whether or not I enjoy RW more doesn't matter because I know it doesn't pop outside of mogtomes events, and even then 90% of matches are people just faffing about waiting for the other side to hurry up and win, same with a lot of my CC matches actually, and of course we all know about leechers and AFKers in Frontlines. Though premades hurt matches far worse in my opinion and end up encouraging more people to be lethargic because "why bother" when one team already has the win on lock.

I'm not gonna blow smoke up my own tail trying to pretend PVP is more popular than it actually is, or that most people (including the developers) care about the health of any of the modes given they even started letting premades into CC. Whatever fun I had when I first started doing PVP has long faded and I treat it as a chore I do every few months, and if not for Series rewards, I likely wouldn't touch it ever again.

Why do you even put yourself through it though. I cannot understand this mentality. You seem to hate pvp but you torture yourself to do it? For what? Rewards? The glam is never that good. The mounts are never that good. Who is pretending it is more popular than it is? I'm just telling you that people queue in more than just the 1 match a day for roulette. If you removed the roulette reward, these people would still queue into frontlines.

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Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

Why do you even put yourself through it though. I cannot understand this mentality. You seem to hate pvp but you torture yourself to do it? For what? Rewards? The glam is never that good. The mounts are never that good. Who is pretending it is more popular than it is? I'm just telling you that people queue in more than just the 1 match a day for roulette. If you removed the roulette reward, these people would still queue into frontlines.

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As a newbie(*) Frontline enjoyer(*), I approve this message :)






*: who only remotely knows to play RDM with average skill, but has fun; and only plays casual while not giving a care for things like meta, but loves contributing into rare fascinating-to-witness fights; and currently cares less about balance issues, premades, afkers, leechers/slackers, rouletters, for the more simple sake of fun in PvP

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Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

Why do you even put yourself through it though. I cannot understand this mentality. You seem to hate pvp but you torture yourself to do it? For what? Rewards? The glam is never that good. The mounts are never that good. Who is pretending it is more popular than it is? I'm just telling you that people queue in more than just the 1 match a day for roulette. If you removed the roulette reward, these people would still queue into frontlines.

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Because it's not a particularly difficult or time-consuming chore to complete, and it's ultimately temporary per Series. Not that I'm lethargic in my playing before someone makes that accusation, and can pull "okay" numbers at least.

https://i.imgur.com/s3NBJhp.jpeg

But I don't enjoy it or get any sense of accomplishment out of it anymore, and just accept that every outcome is beyond my control to change or even contribute to, even being consistent isn't worth the effort. This match for example? We had an 8-stack in our team, so OF COURSE we were going to win no matter what. I could have gone 0/15/0 for all the difference it would have made in the long run, and it's knowing just how on-rails PVP is (even more than PVE depending on which "star players" are q-synching that day/hour) that made me stop taking it seriously because I could bust my ass and still come in 3rd or do absolutely nothing and still take 1st, and the generally enforced "33.3% 33.3% 33.3%" also means there's no point in striving for further.

Not that I'm suggesting that Frontline queue times will tank if I don't show up, I'm sure they pop plenty when I'm not around, and I'm a complete nobody across all possible PVP channels before and after moving to Primal. I'm just saying I'm filler, same with a lot of other people, and it's only when said filler collectively decides the mode (if not the entire game) isn't worth it anymore that queue times might slow down, and that if Frontlines was dependent entirely on only those who actually enjoyed playing, it would become as "insular" as Ranked CC is where you'd only ever see the same people anymore, but then maybe that's what they all want anyway so meh.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

Because it's not a particularly difficult or time-consuming chore to complete, and it's ultimately temporary per Series. Not that I'm lethargic in my playing before someone makes that accusation, and can pull "okay" numbers at least.

But I don't enjoy it or get any sense of accomplishment out of it anymore, and just accept that every outcome is beyond my control to change or even contribute to, even being consistent isn't worth the effort. This match for example? We had an 8-stack in our team, so OF COURSE we were going to win no matter what. I could have gone 0/15/0 for all the difference it would have made in the long run, and it's knowing just how on-rails PVP is (even more than PVE depending on which "star players" are q-synching that day/hour) that made me stop taking it seriously because I could bust my ass and still come in 3rd or do absolutely nothing and still take 1st, and the generally enforced "33.3% 33.3% 33.3%" also means there's no point in striving for further.

Not that I'm suggesting that Frontline queue times will tank if I don't show up, I'm sure they pop plenty when I'm not around, and I'm a complete nobody across all possible PVP channels before and after moving to Primal. I'm just saying I'm filler, same with a lot of other people, and it's only when said filler collectively decides the mode (if not the entire game) isn't worth it anymore that queue times might slow down, and that if Frontlines was dependent entirely on only those who actually enjoyed playing, it would become as "insular" as Ranked CC is where you'd only ever see the same people anymore, but then maybe that's what they all want anyway so meh.

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Sorry if I'm wrong or if it sounds irrespectful or unsolicited, but it kinda saddens me to read people that seem disappointed and lose some passion (not necessarly all passion) in any content of any game they play or played (be it PvP or not). There are indeed a lot of factors in Frontline (and ffxiv PvP in general) that escape our control. At least not without investing a huge - though not always rewarding - amount of time and efforts (or having genuine talent and mates), and even then, no human being could constantly/consistently always control everything 24/7.

Even I concede that Frontline is filled to the brim by flaws that are detrimental to gameplay and fun, and that they are sometimes exhausting, demotivating, unrewarding, and/or demoralizing.

Alas, there’s no immediate miraculous fix for these flaws.

But I wanted to share something.

Before Frontline, I hated PvP sooooo much because of past experiences - and I still hate ranked PvP today.

Your post reminded me that what makes Frontline different for me (and why I still love it after 1500 matches) is that it feels truly casual. I don’t feel crushed by rankings or elite ladder rewards. I definitely am not made for this kind of PvP, and don't want to aim it.

That's why I like to think in FL that winning is not the most fundamentally important point, even though I too like winning and that I don't mean that you shouldn't aim for victory xD. It's just that having a simpler fun time than in all those ranked PvP games is the most valuable experience I get from FL.

This fun is super personnal, I know, and there are days or games without fun in FL. But when days come that I get tired of playing FL, I just stop and don't force myself until I'm in for some fun again.

So it saddens me to read people being so disappointed and demoralized by Frontline (and for relevant and legitimate reasons).

What a classic, Worqor feedback got sidetracked with FL concept discussion... what's next? People complaining about premades for sure. Those god damn voice chatting, game throwing, discord lurking premades!!!

I am here to set y'all straight. Onto Worqor:

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Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

Hasn't really made that much of a difference. Player behavior is still the same. Chasing nodes instead of fighting, then being shocked that they can't hold/fight back on nodes late game vs teams with better BH. Still far too much running. So many matches, I see 10+ people on uncontested triumphs. I can't wait for this map to come off daily rotation and have it's own separate day.

It still blows my mind that they supposedly designed this map to encourage pvp.

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It honestly doesn't feel that spawn rate change was significant, the nodes still spawn all over the place. Still too easy to avoid fighting all together.

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Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

I can't wait for this map to come off daily rotation and have it's own separate day.

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Amen to that brother.

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Originally Posted by TofuLove

What a classic, Worqor feedback got sidetracked with FL concept discussion... what's next? People complaining about premades for sure. Those god damn voice chatting, game throwing, discord lurking premades!!!

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Indeed, I am sorry xD.
As I said :

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Originally Posted by aereniil

But back to topic, Worqor is at most an average and sometimes fun map that had some potential at the beginning.
The A/S ranks spawn positions/algorithm spoil more than it gives fun. The map further incentivize people to afk on nodes.
However, at least at the start, the layout and design had some potential and fun opportunities to exploit (like the three-way middle bridge or the verticality design that hide an incoming ambush or create stressful "enemy above" situations). And I find the mechanics during the game interesting, often useful (even either life-saving or stessful in a stimulating way at times), and refreshing compared to other maps.
And like it or not, no matter the reason or the "new fresh, always up map" effect, people played it over and over for weeks, so maybe that filled the objectives for SE.

But nowadays, I start to see people moving away from this map (at the benefit of other maps), so it may be done in the future.

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Edit : The mechanics I found well done are the ground aoe shield, the snowmen, and the auroras (only the LB effect, the S-rank spawn rate bonus is unwelcome) . People complain about them being bad, and there may be situations where they be right, but I find them more useful, helping, and stimulating when used in good situations (helping get forward to launch an AoE, avoid some damage by moving around snowmen while cds are ticking down, ...). But maybe, it doesn't apply against higher skill level opponents. However, again, the S ranks spawn algorithm is compeletely broken, random, and bad (why MUST two S-rank Triumphs spawn at the same time at opposite sides of the map ?!! and better remove the game timer at this point, and that especially on this map)

worqor shitteh in a nutshell:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy0TtFkgCPQ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aereniil

But I wanted to share something.

Before Frontline, I hated PvP sooooo much because of past experiences - and I still hate ranked PvP today.

Your post reminded me that what makes Frontline different for me (and why I still love it after 1500 matches) is that it feels truly casual. I don’t feel crushed by rankings or elite ladder rewards. I definitely am not made for this kind of PvP, and don't want to aim it.

That's why I like to think in FL that winning is not the most fundamentally important point, even though I too like winning and that I don't mean that you shouldn't aim for victory xD. It's just that having a simpler fun time than in all those ranked PvP games is the most valuable experience I get from FL.

This fun is super personnal, I know, and there are days or games without fun in FL. But when days come that I get tired of playing FL, I just stop and don't force myself until I'm in for some fun again.

So it saddens me to read people being so disappointed and demoralized by Frontline (and for relevant and legitimate reasons).

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For what it's worth, I'm not trying to discourage others from finding and having fun with the mode, so much as just venting that Frontlines ended up another example of "came for one thing, got something completely different" that's kinda marred by experience with Final Fantasy 14 in its entirely.

Personally I enjoy PVP where I can find it, and have even played games that are 100% PVP like hero shooters and MOBAs, but most of those games at least give some sense of personal agency and accomplishment, that I did good by ME win or lose, that I just can't seem to find that in FF14's PVP, not even with Crystalline Conflict. It still feels like so many matches are outside of my control to at least not see turn into a complete stomp because I DON'T WANT matches where one side just gives up completely without trying or another side just crushing everything effortlessly. This is supposed to be a competition, not a poorly choreographed cutscene where all I get to do is watch as things fall where they will, it's only made more maddening because 1v1v1 SHOULD allow for unique plays you can't get in other PVP games that are strictly 1v1 yet somehow it just creates more problems and there's more cases of one team amounting to so little you wonder why they're even there.
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Quote:

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Originally Posted by TofuLove

What a classic, Worqor feedback got sidetracked with FL concept discussion... what's next? People complaining about premades for sure. Those god damn voice chatting, game throwing, discord lurking premades!!!

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I think my complaint is still relevant because it boils down to "either half the people don't want to fight, or the other half doesn't have to try in order to win" and GOD FRICKIN' DAMN is Worqor Chirteh peak examples of both happening, sometimes simultaneously, because it's somehow the most anti-PVP map they've given us yet, while also having the worst cases of snowball matches (involving actual snow no less). Having to play this map so much due to the current rotation only makes it worse having to see the same mistakes made over and over again.