M6s in PF is the most miserable and unfun high end fight in the game

My take on this? Adds on fights are good.
FFXIV needs to stop catering to a dance & boss spank fights.

Adds in fights are good. But the difficulty difference between M7s and M6s is kinda crazy, almost like the two fights should have been swapped.

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Originally Posted by Derio

Adds in fights are good. But the difficulty difference between M7s and M6s is kinda crazy, almost like the two fights should have been swapped.

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Yeah honestly M7S was a joke in comparison.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

Yeah honestly M7S was a joke in comparison.

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It reminds me of P10s vs P11s. It was a fresh breath of air after all that Bonds 3 misery.

Truth is PF consists of good people, medium people and bad people. The HP of the adds in m6s was chosen on a level where good people would clear it, medium people did not and bad people will outgear when they reach it. That's why it feels so bad, that's all, PF has a full range of these people and the truth is the slower you clear and the slower you are in general even time wise when you start the higher chances you get to meet bad players. Someone said it well to me: after the initial phase of good players whether you prog or not in PF is pure luck and it's just like that. Eventually you have to face the reality that your skill only can go so far without fitting people.

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Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

Truth is PF consists of good people, medium people and bad people. The HP of the adds in m6s was chosen on a level where good people would clear it, medium people did not and bad people will outgear when they reach it. That's why it feels so bad, that's all, PF has a full range of these people and the truth is the slower you clear and the slower you are in general even time wise when you start the higher chances you get to meet bad players. Someone said it well to me: after the initial phase of good players whether you prog or not in PF is pure luck and it's just like that. Eventually you have to face the reality that your skill only can go so far without fitting people.

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So, as a counterpoint to this: If M6S requires the very weapon it drops just to reliably clear it even with average savage raiders, M6S is horrifically overtuned. No ifs, no ands, no buts. Full stop, if people need gear to reliably meet the DPS check and it's not a group of truly bad people, the fight is the problem.

I can understand people needing crafted gear to have an easy time, but M6S adds shouldn't need i740 to have enough DPS for the average player to clear. Some may think that's too hard, but this isn't a capstone boss, and it's also not an ultimate. It should be balanced around people in i730 coming in and having a reasonable chance at clearing even with average players. Because, simply put, it's a lower-end savage fight for the tier.

Also, the devs should properly test their fights to see that they perform well at ping, because none of the fights I've done so far feel good with my internet connection, and it's far from the worst ping some people play with.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

So, as a counterpoint to this: If M6S requires the very weapon it drops just to reliably clear it even with average savage raiders, M6S is horrifically overtuned. No ifs, no ands, no buts. Full stop, if people need gear to reliably meet the DPS check and it's not a group of truly bad people, the fight is the problem.

I can understand people needing crafted gear to have an easy time, but M6S adds shouldn't need i740 to have enough DPS for the average player to clear. Some may think that's too hard, but this isn't a capstone boss, and it's also not an ultimate. It should be balanced around people in i730 coming in and having a reasonable chance at clearing even with average players. Because, simply put, it's a lower-end savage fight for the tier.

Also, the devs should properly test their fights to see that they perform well at ping, because none of the fights I've done so far feel good with my internet connection, and it's far from the worst ping some people play with.

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No, they aren't. People cleared M6s before cleave maxxing was a thing. You don't even need to do that; however, doing that strategy will significantly lower the effort.
The second fight in the tier is not always historically easier than the next one. p6s > p7s, P10s > p11s.

Also, while this fight can be entered as 735, you are expected to be at least in 740.

As for the ping, I agree, at least when it comes to rotation, because in terms of timing, it's nothing that requires a crazy nice ping, at least not so far.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

It should be balanced around people in i730 coming in and having a reasonable chance at clearing even with average players..

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Crafted gear + full overmelding should be the baseline to go into savage, there is no excuse to not do that, and those who dont are just bad and should be avoided in your party..

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Originally Posted by Taranok

So, as a counterpoint to this: If M6S requires the very weapon it drops just to reliably clear it even with average savage raiders, M6S is horrifically overtuned. No ifs, no ands, no buts. Full stop, if people need gear to reliably meet the DPS check and it's not a group of truly bad people, the fight is the problem.

I can understand people needing crafted gear to have an easy time, but M6S adds shouldn't need i740 to have enough DPS for the average player to clear. Some may think that's too hard, but this isn't a capstone boss, and it's also not an ultimate. It should be balanced around people in i730 coming in and having a reasonable chance at clearing even with average players. Because, simply put, it's a lower-end savage fight for the tier.

Also, the devs should properly test their fights to see that they perform well at ping, because none of the fights I've done so far feel good with my internet connection, and it's far from the worst ping some people play with.

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You're too lazy to do so much as buy a 740 crafted set and you expect to breeze through one of the hardest fights in the tier? lol

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Originally Posted by Taranok

If M6S requires the very weapon it drops

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2nd floors (which M6S is) don't usually drop weapons.

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I can understand people needing crafted gear to have an easy time, but M6S adds shouldn't need i740 to have enough DPS for the average player to clear.

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If you don't think 740 crafted gear is the expected baseline then you don't understand how the game has functioned for the last 10 years. The routine for any savage raider, including a casual raider that returns at savage release briefly, is this:

Buy crafted gear/food/pots > clear savage > grab weekly tomestone/raid loot along the way to make the last floors a bit easier.

Anything less than this is no different than things like "not doing your rotation", "not attacking", "not healing" or entering with broken gear. It's uncooperative and selfish gameplay.

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It should be balanced around people in i730

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It is generally balanced around the "Avg. Item Level". For the second fight that is 735. But needless to say, you have to be rather perfect to pull off an actual minimum item level clear in many cases, depending on the fight. Just a tiny item level difference can create a lot of leeway - we have seen this play out with Unreal and Ultimates for example with their tight syncs. Because 5 ilvl on each party member could be like 1 party member with 40 additional ilvl, plus it is an extra point of weapon damage for each person and a bigger LB.

So SE gives us this extra leeway with the crafted gear because "giving leeway" to make more people clear is good for SE's finances (they've said this).

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

2nd floors (which M6S is) don't usually drop weapons.

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They kinda do though.
The 2nd floor drops the Universal Tomestone, the item needed for the tomestone weapon, saving you 6 weeks of normal raids and more weapon damage is always a pretty significant dps increase.

Of course it's not literally required to clear, but the additional damage buffer makes it a lot easier, especially in PF where performance fluctuates wildly.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

They kinda do though.
The 2nd floor drops the Universal Tomestone, the item needed for the tomestone weapon, saving you 6 weeks of normal raids and more weapon damage is always a pretty significant dps increase.

Of course it's not literally required to clear, but the additional damage buffer makes it a lot easier, especially in PF where performance fluctuates wildly.

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True. But in any case, the problem solves itself by the 7th week (next week), when people can get the weapon augment without having set food in savage yet - not to mention 7 weeks of tomestone gear. Usually the 7th week you see a massive shift in how the first two floors melt. Which makes all these complaints short-sighted in a way.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

True. But in any case, the problem solves itself by the 7th week (next week), when people can get the weapon augment without having set food in savage yet - not to mention 7 weeks of tomestone gear. Usually the 7th week you see a massive shift in how the first two floors melt. Which makes all these complaints short-sighted in a way.

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7 cruiser holosaber can be exchanged for 1 Universal Tomestone 2.0, which allows for purchase of an unaugmented tome weapon. The Ester for augmentation is exclusively available from m7s, and will only be available through other means late in 7.3, long after the release of 2nd Alliance raid.
Further, even BiS gear will not help groups that are making fundamental mistakes with their cooldown management, positioning, or not healing tanks when they require because somehow GCD casting a heal is worse wiping.

It's a savage tier right? I know I'm new to Savage last tier was my first tier... but like you just got to keep at it and you'll get it.

And yeah not having a static makes PF only just hell... literal hell. But that's like every fight until the fights get out geared.

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Originally Posted by AllenThyl

7 cruiser holosaber can be exchanged for 1 Universal Tomestone 2.0, which allows for purchase of an unaugmented tome weapon.

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That's exactly what I said.

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The Ester for augmentation is exclusively available from m7s, and will only be available through other means late in 7.3, long after the release of 2nd Alliance raid.

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Very true, but the discussion was about how the unaugmented tome weapon makes it die faster.

Anyway, I'm told that reclears are pretty smooth and it's just prog parties having these issues.

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Originally Posted by Valence

M6S is literally the anti raidplan fight from what I've seen. It goes against everything that the current raiding community does which is memorizing plans and executing a set of instructions to the letter. It requires people to think by themselves and talk with their party.

Is this a decent summary of it?

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For someone who bangs on about how "not being there" disqualifies someone from a discussion, you sure like insert your ego a lot into content you admit on not doing. Almost like you aren't actually arguing in good faith at all :D
It's especially funny how wrong you are again about this content, which is unsurprising, since you have a track record of not understanding how encounters in this game are designed. No, it's not a "literally anti raidplan fight", quite the opposite. The add spawn timing and placement are hard scripted, their abilities and enrage timers are fixed. The only "random" thing is the cat jump pattern. The raidplans and guides spit out everything in excrutiating details, from where to stand when, what to do, what to prioritize, the Yukizuri video is even explicit about how to heal. But hey, what would I know, nothing can compare to your "experience", innit?

I mean, I have way more experience (and community involvement) then you do, so your post just screams of insecurity, but you do you.
This is why I asked this as a question, because yes, I am not raiding this tier. Forgive me for being curious about it and as you say, "not understanding how encounters work". All I've seen answered everywhere so far seemed to hint at a lot of adjustment to be made depending on players, comp, circumstances, beyond the raidplan acting as a baseline, adjustment which is something for example, as you quote Yukizuri, the guide maker specifically mentions needs to be done. You telling me that this isn't the case, then it would seem you are in disagreement with the majority?

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Originally Posted by Taranok

So, as a counterpoint to this: If M6S requires the very weapon it drops just to reliably clear it even with average savage raiders, M6S is horrifically overtuned. No ifs, no ands, no buts. Full stop, if people need gear to reliably meet the DPS check and it's not a group of truly bad people, the fight is the problem.

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well good thing u dont :D

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Originally Posted by AllenThyl

7 cruiser holosaber can be exchanged for 1 Universal Tomestone 2.0, which allows for purchase of an unaugmented tome weapon.

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The Tome Weapon is too expensive, there should be one weapon for tomes, and another one for a Stone.

After reading all of these replies a lot of you suffer from the cold case of skill issue. Praying for your recovery

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

Oh please.. as if Snek memes weren't a thing in p8s and most PF's that were "phase 2" were actually a snek prog in disguise. Give me a break..

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Sure, snakes in p8s caused a lot of wipes. P12s was also pretty miserable to progress in pf. These are 4th fights - I find myself more tolerant of this sort of thing in a 4th fight. M6s is a 2nd fight, which I do not think should have such a large roadblock for pf. Also, compared to m6s adds, snakes in p8s were ridiculously easy for pf.

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Originally Posted by -Xenia-

M6s is a 2nd fight, which I do not think should have such a large roadblock for pf. Also, compared to m6s adds, snakes in p8s were ridiculously easy for pf.

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Bonds 3, those turret thingys, Harrowing Hell

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Bonds 3, those turret thingys, Harrowing Hell

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Turrets never went as badly as people meme'd them out to be really. Moreover, I would get to turrets in most fresh prog parties anyways. Bonds 3 and after was rough but often healer LB3 handled that. As for Harrowing Hell, I don't know if people could manage it without tank LB3 at release but obviously many people didn't have it there anyways because of an earlier healer LB3 and still cleared.

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Originally Posted by -Xenia-

Sure, snakes in p8s caused a lot of wipes. P12s was also pretty miserable to progress in pf. These are 4th fights - I find myself more tolerant of this sort of thing in a 4th fight. M6s is a 2nd fight, which I do not think should have such a large roadblock for pf. Also, compared to m6s adds, snakes in p8s were ridiculously easy for pf.

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P6s vs P7s would like to have a word with you
P10s vs p11s would like to as well.

Anything else? Ah yes, the Snek prior and easy for PF cannot go together, sorry.

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

P6s vs P7s would like to have a word with you
P10s vs p11s would like to as well.

Anything else? Ah yes, the Snek prior and easy for PF cannot go together, sorry.

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Not sure I'd count the Abyssos fights, P6S was a complete joke as soon as you realized there were only two patterns, especially when you cheesed Cachexia 2 like most of party finder.
And the hardest part of P7S was remembering to hold your 6 minute burst until after Immortal's Obol, Harvests weren't particularly difficult either if you used Inumaru instead of Hector.

P5S was probably the bigger wall because people in PF just couldn't do Venom Squall without killing each other consistently.

I just cleared M7s

compared to M6s this fight was a joke, only took me two evenings to clear with group finder, but i was stuck 3 weeks on M6 add phase, this is just insanity.

Joined a Cleavemaxxing ADDS 4 prog party made by a SAM, the entry requirement was 747 IL but despite that we filled pretty quickly.

Before we began the party lead placed down his very weird markers, which looked more like M5S's markers than M6S's. After a small discussion about which markers were better, we agreed to use the normal markers.
First pull we die at cactus because the SAM took his defamation to the stack. This was the first of many incidents that would happen at cactus.
Couple pulls later we still hadn't seen adds due to a series of mess ups.
Eventually though, the party leader (the samurai) started complaining that the healers were "playing their class wrong"
When asked what he meant by that he said, and i kid you not, that "healers aren't supposed to attack the boss, all they should be doing is keeping the party alive and buffing us."
It was at this point one of the healers pointed out that the samurai's IL was actually 738, a far cry from the 747 he put as a requirement. And as if to add salt to the injury, the guy also had no melds.
Upon seeing this the main tank said his piece and promply left the party.
Everyone else followed after him and we disbanded.
We never saw adds.

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Originally Posted by Nuketini

Joined a Cleavemaxxing ADDS 4 prog party made by a SAM, the entry requirement was 747 IL but despite that we filled pretty quickly.

Before we began the party lead placed down his very weird markers, which looked more like M5S's markers than M6S's. After a small discussion about which markers were better, we agreed to use the normal markers.
First pull we die at cactus because the SAM took his defamation to the stack. This was the first of many incidents that would happen at cactus.
Couple pulls later we still hadn't seen adds due to a series of mess ups.
Eventually though, the party leader (the samurai) started complaining that the healers were "playing their class wrong"
When asked what he meant by that he said, and i kid you not, that "healers aren't supposed to attack the boss, all they should be doing is keeping the party alive and buffing us."
It was at this point one of the healers pointed out that the samurai's IL was actually 738, a far cry from the 747 he put as a requirement. And as if to add salt to the injury, the guy also had no melds.
Upon seeing this the main tank said his piece and promply left the party.
Everyone else followed after him and we disbanded.
We never saw adds.

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what you can learn from this is, inspect your party members before the first pull.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Not sure I'd count the Abyssos fights, P6S was a complete joke as soon as you realized there were only two patterns, especially when you cheesed Cachexia 2 like most of party finder.
And the hardest part of P7S was remembering to hold your 6 minute burst until after Immortal's Obol, Harvests weren't particularly difficult either if you used Inumaru instead of Hector.

P5S was probably the bigger wall because people in PF just couldn't do Venom Squall without killing each other consistently.

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Why would you even kill anyone with that? All you had to do was sit in your spot and let it resolve..
As for Cahexia, you are right, but that wasn't the sore point of the fight.

The reason why Abyssos was actually difficult compared with other tiers is that it never had looped mechanics. This tier is also very close to that, but a little easier than Abyssos.

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but i was stuck 3 weeks on M6 add phase, this is just insanity.

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People got more gear in 3 weeks, they are still equally bad, but less apparent now.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

I just cleared M7s

compared to M6s this fight was a joke, only took me two evenings to clear with group finder, but i was stuck 3 weeks on M6 add phase, this is just insanity.

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Thats because you missed out on the hard part of M7S. Now that everyone has a lot of gear pieces the DPS check isn't tight. And that was the entire fight's gimmick.

I found M7S pretty stressful because of the overstimulating music and extremely fast speed, which messes with people on higher ping. I went back to help an M6S PF and it was soooo relaxing and slow in comparison now that I mastered that fight. It calmed me down from being tilted in M7.

Well it's been cleared without tanks now
Is it time for us tanks to start the tank strike?

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Originally Posted by Luca_

You're too lazy to do so much as buy a 740 crafted set and you expect to breeze through one of the hardest fights in the tier? lol

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I'm in full 740 and had to hard carry my awful m6s clear group on my alt to victory because everyone else was a mouth-breather and can't even handle below average play without falling over dead.

The second fight of a tier should not be the hardest fight, the fact that one section of it is harder than ultimate mechanics design is 1000% the problem. And, from my own experience, it used to be more than possible to breeze through the first 2 tiers in prior-tier's BIS. I did it numerous times in stormblood and shadowbringers. But I suppose shifting goalposts and making the game so hard that most players who want to do savage can't handle even its second fight is good fight design.

What do I know, I've only been savage raiding since ARR.

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

P6s vs P7s would like to have a word with you
P10s vs p11s would like to as well.

Anything else? Ah yes, the Snek prior and easy for PF cannot go together, sorry.

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Yes, sometimes the 3rd fight is easier than the 2nd. Happened again here. Doesn't change my point - m6s adds phase is like 4th fight level difficulty not 2nd nor 3rd. The only thing that makes it somewhat understandable is that the design is such that better gear makes it a lot easier.

Also never said p8s snakes were easy for pf. Easier than m6s adds though, for sure.

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Originally Posted by -Xenia-

Yes, sometimes the 3rd fight is easier than the 2nd. Happened again here. Doesn't change my point - m6s adds phase is like 4th fight level difficulty not 2nd nor 3rd. The only thing that makes it somewhat understandable is that the design is such that better gear makes it a lot easier.

Also never said p8s snakes were easy for pf. Easier than m6s adds though, for sure.

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What's funny is that even M8S has an add phase, but the damage check there is a complete joke by comparison. The fight is definitely faster paced and has more mechanics overall, but none of the groups I joined struggled with any phase nearly as much as they did with the adds in M6S. This is all from Party Finder experience, of course statics might have a completely different perspective on this tier.

Its been cleared without Tanks. Which would suggest that tank performance is near irrelevant in this fight.
Its up to healers to be able to heal properly (most probably never had to use full kit before), and DPS need to step up their game in AOE and burst priority.

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Originally Posted by StormEye

Its been cleared without Tanks. Which would suggest that tank performance is near irrelevant in this fight.
Its up to healers to be able to heal properly (most probably never had to use full kit before), and DPS need to step up their game in AOE and burst priority.

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(Role) is nearly irrelevant. (Role) needs to step up their game.

This is actually a chronic problem with FFXIV fight design.

To be honestly extremely blunt. It's a game that pretends to be a team game, but you don't even really have an actual team.

A team would imply the ability for players to cover each other's mistakes and weaknesses. You don't have that. You got eight people each in a bubble and if any of the bubbles pop, you all pop.

Instead of each team member a welcomed ally bolstering the situation, in fact, each team member is primarily a point of failure to be anxious over. To be ironed out or kicked out.

Even physical sports are not this stark. There's a lot more team members covering for each other, a lot less single points of failure even there. Why are soccer and basketball so enduring? Because you work together. It's not "Oh, Jimmy's the center, he's the only one who can score the point for us, dammit Jimmy you let us down again." It's "The ball is getting away from Jimmy but Kyle saved the day."

The raid culture even reflects this. You don't succeed, especially in PF, by focusing on what people can do (in fact, even WoW raid culture is leagues ahead of us in this regard), you have to focus on every little detail they couldn't do. You need people that are essentially perfect. Any stumbling block and they are an unacceptable liability. That's why we have soul-eating cruelties like Tomestone.

I can only assume it's why learner-oriented Discords are generally relatively small and private (in stark contrast to WoW's Warcraft Made Easy) and even the more successful ones, even ones I know that have legit super chill vibes and have bots set up to help organize things, still run alarmingly low activity (less than even the BA discords towards the end of Stormblood, and that was a 56 player event that only allowed for one run to be scheduled throughout an entire datacenter per 2-3 hour time slot).

It's Battletoads all over again. Except with eight players and 2 was enough of a handful in that game to make you want to grab the cartridge in both hands and snap violently.

On the one hand I want to beat up big monsters in good company. On the other hand I see this and think "how are we supposed to have that fun in this mess?"

The main winners are content creators and the folks that sit back and view them on stream, like folks sitting back to watch American football on Sunday afternoon.

But that is not what a MMO was supposed to be about. It was supposed to be a massively multiplayer game, not a massively multispectator sports stadium ...

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

Well it's been cleared without tanks now
Is it time for us tanks to start the tank strike?

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You got a video of that? that's pretty neat

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Originally Posted by Volgia

You got a video of that? that's pretty neat

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A63X5VZqYWI

No point getting mad at these tankless/healerless clears in hardcore content, when you know for a fact 99.99% of raiders would never run this kind of comp. People who -do- doom about these clears invalidating roles, must have a huge ego to think they can play just as well as the literal W1st winners that did tankless M6S.