What is the point of playing tank other than warrior?

Warrior has more Self healing but less mitigation than other tanks, the game is not balanced around braindead content like dungeons.

If you want to compare Tanks, you must look at their DPS output, mainly in savage content, Gunbreaker in Nr.#1 , and Paladin is the worst.

Nostalgia, and i like to suffer when i play.

(Yes i main DRK, how did you guess?)

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Originally Posted by Arohk

Warrior has more Self healing but less mitigation than other tanks, the game is not balanced around braindead content like dungeons.

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‘The game is not balanced around 99% of content’
…am I the only one who sees the issue with this?

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Originally Posted by Connor

‘The game is not balanced around 99% of content’
…am I the only one who sees the issue with this?

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You probably are. Unless that content physically can't be done by all jobs comfortably "see GNB/DRK eminty changes to gap closers" a proper dev is going to balance the game around the end game, else you get a situation where jobs are unable to do end game and you have a situation like we had in Heavensward where PLD was unplayable unless it was a fight doing physical damage and not magical. That's a worse feeling than maining a job that's slightly weaker than the others for end game, than being forced to job change because your job wasn't taken into account for end game content and it was impossible to clear that content?

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Originally Posted by AvaloniaFallen

I know why they did it but there's still something deeply funny about reading the patch notes and seeing that the only tank that got any potency buffs is Warrior.

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The reason they "buffed WAR" but really reworked an interaction and compensated that interaction. Top WARs every other IR were delaying their Primal Rends to the last second so Ruination would be up long enough for party wide buffs so you could do 2 of those and pushing up WAR's current DPS a bit. They basically removed that possibility of happening, but compensated by a potency buff on that skill so it doesn't "lose" the damage.

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Originally Posted by Connor

‘The game is not balanced around 99% of content’
…am I the only one who sees the issue with this?

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Yes that's an issue but that's not what they said.
They cleared mentionned dungeons, not "99% of content".

Dungeons aren't 99% of the content and that's a good thing, we had 13 dungeons in EW, imagine if they were 99% of the content...
Dungeons are laid back content, if Warrior didn't have bloodwhetting, things would always go smooth anyway, even if jobs were underbalanced or overbalanced.

Dungeons, Fates, Maps are very casual contents where Bloodwhetting can shine but is that really a problem? The question is "Do we need to balance for content where balance doesn't matter?"
Imagine if Pokemon nerfed a specific creature because it was too good in story mode without caring about pvp, where the balance has a massive impact.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

You probably are. Unless that content physically can't be done by all jobs comfortably "see GNB/DRK eminty changes to gap closers" a proper dev is going to balance the game around the end game, else you get a situation where jobs are unable to do end game and you have a situation like we had in Heavensward where PLD was unplayable unless it was a fight doing physical damage and not magical. That's a worse feeling than maining a job that's slightly weaker than the others for end game, than being forced to job change because your job wasn't taken into account for end game content and it was impossible to clear that content?

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I'm not sure I can agree.

They do this for current content yeah, but its really more like they only balance for week 1 savage of the current expansion specifically, with all other balancing being completely and deliberately disregarded, and forced to change for them balancing the entire game around 4 fights.

Criterion was a shining example of this, with some Criterion fights being considered harder than savages, and the Criterion (Savage) basically being a psuedo ultimate. The balancing in this was complete trash, there were jobs that should have been barred, and would have but it flew under the radar due to how unpopular the content was.

There are definitely jobs that should be barred from old Ultimates, and feel like garbage in them, but SE doesn't care in the slightest because its not current content.

So I think its more accurate to say they balance around week 1 savage SPECIFICALLY and everything else is disregarded, no matter if its difficult, high end or easy casual content.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

They basically removed that possibility of happening, but compensated by a potency buff on that skill so it doesn't "lose" the damage.

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That sounds like similar logic to how the tank designer removed two stacks from Blood Weapon and removed damage from DRK's gapcloser in order to make DRK less busy during burst phases, but then compensated the job with potency buffs so that the job doesn't 'lose' the damage. Oh wait, they didn't do that.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

That sounds like similar logic to how the tank designer removed two stacks from Blood Weapon and removed damage from DRK's gapcloser in order to make DRK less busy during burst phases, but then compensated the job with potency buffs so that the job doesn't 'lose' the damage. Oh wait, they didn't do that.

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Anyone who actually pays attention just immediately picks up on the job favouritism.
Paladin and Dark knight requiring spell speed to move the GCD on some of their abilities? Crickets.
Direct hit melds being slightly less useful on War because of guaranteed direct hits? HOOOOOLD THE FUCK UP! LET'S FIX THAT! *War now does INCREASED direct hit damage with it's guaranteed direct crits based on it's direct hit stat*
Dark knight having 2 mits that do nothing against harrowing hell, the hardest hitting mechanic in the entire game? I sleep.
War being slightly less effective against bleed DoTs in Abyssos!?!?!?!? HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLD THE FUCK UP! Here's 5 billion healing over time on shake it off and Equilibrium.

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Originally Posted by Connor

‘The game is not balanced around 99% of content’
…am I the only one who sees the issue with this?

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Why would they balance the jobs around content that doesn't require you to be able to play your job?

Balancing jobs around dungeons would be like designing a car based on how it performs while parked.

Jobs are literally already designed fully around being in raids, making them all massively overpowered in anything that’s not a savage raid. If that’s ’perfectly fine’ for everyone then I don’t get why anyone is complaining because by that logic the game is perfectly balanced, jobs are all perfectly designed and I guess everyone dissatisfied should just do ultimates, right?

Pack it up, healers! Your job is just designed for raids, you can stop complaining now!

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Originally Posted by Connor

Jobs are literally already designed fully around being in raids, making them all massively overpowered in anything that’s not a savage raid. If that’s ’perfectly fine’ for everyone then I don’t get why anyone is complaining because by that logic the game is perfectly balanced, jobs are all perfectly designed and I guess everyone dissatisfied should just do ultimates, right?

Pack it up, healers! Your job is just designed for raids, you can stop complaining now!

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This is either a very uninformed opinion or a bad faith argument that you don't even believe yourself.

Healing isn't any more engaging in raids than it is in dungeons. The absurd efficiency of healer kits combined with massively oversimplified damage rotations and predictable incoming damage makes healing a snooze in all content. This isn't true to the same extent for any other role.

The problem with healing in XIV at the minute is that >50% of your role is dealing damage and 90% of your damage "rotation" is pressing 1 button.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Uninformed opinion. Healing isn't any more engaging in raids than it is in dungeons..

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It’s balanced though. They can all complete the content so realistically what difference does it make if they’re ‘fun’?

That’s kind of point I’m trying to make. Devs have made it abundantly clear we cannot have it both ways. And since ‘imbalances’ are anathema to them, the septic design of all jobs is in their view an absolute requirement for said balance.

So either they continue designing jobs around raids and they stay the exact same they always are, or they start thinking about literally anything else besides ‘Will it be 100% competitive in every raid at as close to a 1:1 rate with other jobs as possible’ (which I’m pretty sure they haven’t even achieved ironically)

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Originally Posted by Connor

It’s balanced though. They can all complete the content so realistically what difference does it make if they’re ‘fun’?

That’s kind of point I’m trying to make. Devs have made it abundantly clear we cannot have it both ways. And since ‘imbalances’ are anathema to them, the septic design of all jobs is in their view an absolute requirement for said balance.

So either they continue designing jobs around raids and they stay the exact same they always are, or they start thinking about literally anything else besides ‘Will it be 100% competitive in every raid at as close to a 1:1 rate with other jobs as possible’ (which I’m pretty sure they haven’t even achieved ironically)

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The difference is that tanking casual content is fun but healing it is not.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

The difference is that tanking casual content is fun but healing it is not.

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That seems a little subjective to me, but even if everyone felt that it doesn’t disprove the fact that ‘fun’ isn’t a requirement for ‘balance’. If they found out the things that made tanks ‘fun’ in normal content infringed upon raid content balance I genuinely think they’d remove it without a second thought.

Thus, by their logic there is no reasonable grounds to increase healer dps options because that might affect them healing in ultimates. Even if it means they don’t get to be fun for the rest of the game because they have a skill set entirely disproportionate to that content.

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Originally Posted by Connor

That seems a little subjective to me, but even if everyone felt that it doesn’t disprove the fact that ‘fun’ isn’t a requirement for ‘balance’. If they found out the things that made tanks ‘fun’ in normal content infringed upon raid content balance I genuinely think they’d remove it without a second thought.

Thus, by their logic there is no reasonable grounds to increase healer dps options because that might affect them healing in ultimates. Even if it means they don’t get to be fun for the rest of the game because they have a lot that’s entirely disproportionate to that content

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Indeed it is subjective and in those cases all you can do is look at majority opinion among the playerbase. Right now, it seems that the majority opinion is that healing isn't particularly fun or engaging. I don't see anyone complaining that playing a WAR in casual content isn't fun and the other tanks aren't struggling.

Giving healers slightly more involved damage rotations would certainly make healing ultimate slightly harder, but for the people who are playing at that level, I imagine that would generally be seen as a positive.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

The problem with healing in XIV at the minute is that >50% of your role is dealing damage and 90% of your damage "rotation" is pressing 1 button.

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Yes, healing is waiting for damage then healing/mitigating these damages.
Tanks CDs and Warrior self healing just push this problem under the spotlight as the time between damages to heal becomes more important.

Healer kit is definitely designed around high-end content thought, it's kind of normal that you need to ensure they heal enough in these content.
In dungeon, you can protect the tank/stun the mobs until the pack is half dead. SGE can throw short CDs like Taurochole, Kerachole, Soteria and Physis every packs, more than enough to keep a tank alive.
Obviously those scenarios depends on your DPS, if they slack you'll have to throw a bit more, but good luck if you have a PCT.

What SQEX needs to change is what healer do while waiting for damages to happen.
Imagine if tanks were all about mitigation and spamming 1 and refreshing a dot with 2 while waiting for tank buster to happen.

So why did WAR need a damage buff in the very first patch anyway?

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Originally Posted by aiqa

So why did WAR need a damage buff in the very first patch anyway?

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Because GNB was significantly ahead in terms of damage. I imagine PLD and DRK will also receive potency buffs.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Because GNB was significantly ahead in terms of damage. I imagine PLD and DRK will also receive potency buffs.

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While it was a buff, it's only 40 potency per 1 minute. That can't have made a huge difference. So before that buff WAR must already have been 2nd highest dps tank. I guess PLD and DRK aren't high priority jobs like WAR.

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Originally Posted by aiqa

So why did WAR need a damage buff in the very first patch anyway?

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They removed WAR's ability to deal double Primal Ruination in 120s windows, in exchange they gave 40 potency as a consolation prize.

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Originally Posted by aiqa

While it was a buff, it's only 40 potency per 1 minute. That can't have made a huge difference. So before that buff WAR must already have been 2nd highest dps tank. I guess PLD and DRK aren't high priority jobs like WAR.

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Yeah, that's pretty much the same conclusion everyone else came to over the past 2 years.
Warrior is more important than other tanks. The devs have been giving it preferential treatment for a long time.
It's cannibalised other tank identities, it's always immediately fixed whenever a change made something slightly worse, and it's allowed to just be a direct upgrade over other jobs.

The reason for changing Primal Ruination reminds me of the removal of WAR's cone AOEs.
They literally want it to be the paste eating job.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

They removed WAR's ability to deal double Primal Ruination in 120s windows, in exchange they gave 40 potency as a consolation prize.

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I don't particularly care to min-max like that so I wasn't aware of this. All I can say is that I had a pretty big chuckle when I saw they buffed WAR damage but the other tanks only got enmity adjustments. Adding gas to fire as usual I guess lol

ITT: People coming to the realisation that WAR is the main character and everyone else are just quirky sidekicks.

They tried that for the MSQ as well, and it didn't go down very well in the reviews.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I don't particularly care to min-max like that so I wasn't aware of this. All I can say is that I had a pretty big chuckle when I saw they buffed WAR damage but the other tanks only got enmity adjustments. Adding gas to fire as usual I guess lol

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This is 7.01, in comparison, 6.01 had no job adjustments, same goes for 5.01 that only adjusted mp cost and 1 buff duration.
Bigger changes should happen in 7.05 but don't hold your breath and lower your expectations.

Even if DRK gained more MP and potency, it would still need a gameplay update.

great another warrior buff.. it obviously needed so warrior can compete with dark knight

thank you square enix

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Originally Posted by Vinter

ITT: People coming to the realisation that WAR is the main character and everyone else are just quirky sidekicks.

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Nah there is still the GNB who outshadows WAR in raidcontent. But yeah the other two tanks are eating dirt, which is kinda sad.

I guarantee WAR gets even more buffs in 7.05 and GNB will probably get 1 or two buffs.