Is SE planning to deal with ilvl cheese people?

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Factually incorrect. There's:

1) People who need it for the MSQ (every single person going through it)

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These people can queue for CT directly without using the roulette.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

2) People who need CT for ShB Relics

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These people can queue for CT directly without using the roulette.

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Originally Posted by GrumbleBeard

These people can queue for CT directly without using the roulette.

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But why should they when they could force one via roulette AND get the roulette participation+AiN bonus in one go? /s

For real though, they need to adjust the rewards given. Make Aglaia/NieR reward more than CT raid series. Make them on par and people would still fish for the latter.

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Originally Posted by GrumbleBeard

These people can queue for CT directly without using the roulette.

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...You do realize that they are directly queueing it for the MSQ, correct? And when they do, they automatically drag 23 other players with them that are queueing for alliance roulette?

And that there's infinitely more people doing this for the CT raids then any other raid?

Alliance roulette isn't a self-contained bubble. people hard queueing for the raids will get their queues filled from people in alliance raid roulette.

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Originally Posted by GrumbleBeard

These people can queue for CT directly without using the roulette.

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They can, but why? As Deceptus said, you get to tackle two tasks with one queue. Tons of free exp + progress on a relic in a single 15min run, instead of doing them separately. Doesn't matter if they -can-, people love being efficient with their time.

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Originally Posted by GrumbleBeard

These people can queue for CT directly without using the roulette.



These people can queue for CT directly without using the roulette.

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These people can still influence the roulette. That's how the roulette works.

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Originally Posted by Imora

I still fail to understand why you guys are in favor of forcing a playstyle, which is against ToS in normal circumstances to begin with.

Just don't do the roulette if you don't want s random raid.

I regularly get the Void Ark ones. I hate Dun Scaith. I do it anyway, because that's what the roulette gives me.

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People want Roulettes to be Roulettes.
No one knows when they get one of the three CTs if it's a sprout, a grinder<which tbh, most find other ways to grind, and if they slow grind, it's random when they hit it, unless it's the last option, when they try to force their own progress and double dip via>, Ungearing.

If anything, we want the game to work as intended. if it worked as such, people would accept their lot.<only those who hate it til the end of their days would keep going on and on. Like it was back with the old MSQ Roulette. But guess what, that changed. and while some may hate it, it's for the better. Cause now Sprouts. the intended audience, doesn't get left In the cold. which is the opposite with Alliance Raids.>

also no everyone has void ark. I don't, haven't bothered to unlock at all. so for me it's CT, Ivalice, Nier, Aglaia.<tbh if I wanted less CT, I should unlock Void Ark. but> I don't care about landing on CT, what I care about. is that it works as it is intended. Which is what many want.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

These people can still influence the roulette. That's how the roulette works.

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Good thing the topic in question is people intentionally cheesing their ilvl. The issue is not people NEEDING to run CT, it's people who don't need to but are forcing it.

"But I need it for my relic"

Great, you can queue for it directly and get exactly what you want. You can all complain about people calling you out but you're all morally wrong. The roulette exists for the chance to get any of your unlocked raids and the option exists to get exactly what you want if you can't stand the thought of not doing crystal tower. At the end of the day, you win anyway since SE will never care enough to come up with a solution but that doesn't mean it's not frustrating.

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Originally Posted by GrumbleBeard

Good thing the topic in question is people intentionally cheesing their ilvl. The issue is not people NEEDING to run CT, it's people who don't need to but are forcing it.

"But I need it for my relic"

Great, you can queue for it directly and get exactly what you want. You can all complain about people calling you out but you're all morally wrong. The roulette exists for the chance to get any of your unlocked raids and the option exists to get exactly what you want if you can't stand the thought of not doing crystal tower. At the end of the day, you win anyway since SE will never care enough to come up with a solution but that doesn't mean it's not frustrating.

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Yo, pop your head out for a moment. What you said makes no difference in the roulette. People can queue direct and still drag people into CT and people will still whine and blame cheese.

I win because I don't get bothered by this whole situation. I'm actually trying to encourage people to come up with a better solution, but they don't want to.

Pretty sure the easiest solutions have been said multiple times - make the non-CT raids actually worth doing. Better rewards for time invested. It's how old Prae was - it was longer than Castrum but the rewards were significantly better.

Alternatively, or additionally, make it so it syncs the roulette queue to the level of the job you queue as instead of the ilvl of the gear you have equipped at the time of queuing, so ilvl isn't even taken into account. There, no more cheesing.

I wonder if they are capable of making the alliance roulette with rotations according to expansions, that changes weekly.
For example this week would be ARR, next week HW, followed by SB the week after, then ShB + EW.
I figured the current expansion could merge with the previous expansion's alliance raids since it will take months to release one.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Yo, pop your head out for a moment. What you said makes no difference in the roulette. People can queue direct and still drag people into CT and people will still whine and blame cheese.

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You can keep trying to deflect using the people legit queueing for it but it doesn't matter at all. I don't mind getting CT sometimes, it's part of the roulette. I do mind seeing naked people at the start of the duty quickly throw their gear back on because they are ARTIFICIALLY increasing the odds of getting CT and it happens all the time.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

I win because I don't get bothered by this whole situation. I'm actually trying to encourage people to come up with a better solution, but they don't want to.

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Tons of people have posted solutions for it in this very thread, feel free to read any of them. The situation is essentially the same as when they had to nerf pvp experience because of the massive amount of people afking in to farm. I understand that certain types of people will always take the path of least resistance for them to the detriment of everyone around them.

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Originally Posted by einschwartz

I wonder if they are capable of making the alliance roulette with rotations according to expansions, that changes weekly.
For example this week would be ARR, next week HW, followed by SB the week after, then ShB + EW.
I figured the current expansion could merge with the previous expansion's alliance raids since it will take months to release one.

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Waiting whole weeks is a bit much. That idea would be better as a daily rotation a la Frontline. The trouble with the overall idea is the potential to make the non-CT queues worse.

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Originally Posted by GrumbleBeard

You can keep trying to deflect using the people legit queueing for it but it doesn't matter at all. I don't mind getting CT sometimes, it's part of the roulette. I do mind seeing naked people at the start of the duty quickly throw their gear back on because they are ARTIFICIALLY increasing the odds of getting CT and it happens all the time.

Tons of people have posted solutions for it in this very thread, feel free to read any of them. The situation is essentially the same as when they had to nerf pvp experience because of the massive amount of people afking in to farm. I understand that certain types of people will always take the path of least resistance for them to the detriment of everyone around them.

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I'm not deflecting anything. I've acknowledged it all. It's a shame that people cheese, but a lot of people just don't lose sleep over it. What's more of a shame is bailing on a duty. What are you doing queueing roulette or even playing an MMO if you're just going to leave because your panties are already in a bunch?

I've read all the ideas and commented on most of them, if not all. That's why I keep asking for better solutions. I've yet to see an idea that doesn't end up putting someone else at a disadvantage. Fussing with the item level and job level frankly sounds messy, ineffective and a little extreme. You'll still have people forcing you into CT, so why did they waste time setting this up?

Maybe instead of focusing on me and coming up with these garbage takes, you could take some time to really think about a solution that would actually work for EVERYONE.

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Originally Posted by SassyAssassin

They will never do that because their main concern is to cater to new players, they don’t want new players to wait around or go completely helpless into duties. Thats why every damn time there’s some event, whatever gives the most tomes it’s always crystal, labirinth, world of darkness and of course, preatorium. I wish they removed it from msq, better for all of us.

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That goes back to my first point though, if a single person in the alliance raid needs a CT run, it would default to that and you'd get a newbie bonus.

Which is one of the reasons you see CT so much it only takes a single person out of 24 to need it for it to pop.

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

...You do realize that they are directly queueing it for the MSQ, correct? And when they do, they automatically drag 23 other players with them that are queueing for alliance roulette?

And that there's infinitely more people doing this for the CT raids then any other raid?

Alliance roulette isn't a self-contained bubble. people hard queueing for the raids will get their queues filled from people in alliance raid roulette.



They can, but why? As Deceptus said, you get to tackle two tasks with one queue. Tons of free exp + progress on a relic in a single 15min run, instead of doing them separately. Doesn't matter if they -can-, people love being efficient with their time.

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Hey look, someone who gets the point.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

I've yet to see an idea that doesn't end up putting someone else at a disadvantage.

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Depends on tone as well. Because if you see one flaw and shoot the idea on the spot, how different are you from everyone else throwing in absolutely ridiculous ideas?

Try this instead: Assume there's no perfect world, and therefore anything the devs do (whether we put it forward or not) will put someone at a disadvantage. Out of everything that's been presented by the players in this thread, is there anything that has a more minimal impact/lower causalities?

Because another thing to keep in mind is that there's also the perception of what is fair. You can have a system that does indeed disadvantage someone. But if the perception of it is a fair one, you won't find as many people complaining.

If I flip a coin 50 times and expect it to always land on Heads, I'm setting myself up for disappointment. But it's fair, because I have a 50% chance of obtaining a result at any given time. But if you place a magnet on the Heads side to increase the chances of me getting Tails, then I have a bigger reason to complain. Because then the chances are heavily skewed.
We all know CT will have the highest odds. Because it's not just mandatory, it's the default lv 50 roulette. But undressing yourself to force it to be guaranteed goes against the logic of a roulette. So saying "It's a roulette, it's bound to be random, you'll get CT in randomness, deal with it" is ignoring the fact that people are forcing the roulette to always land on a specific number.

Also, Deveryn, other people have mentioned reworking how the Synch system works. Because you're forced to mindlessly press the ludicrously oversimplified and barebones ARR "rotation" as it stands. It doesn't need to screw over the difficulty, it just needs to make things enjoyable. Some people aren't against CT itself for being easy, they're against it for being boring.

imo allowing the synch to work that way would also let new players to see how later skills look like and feel motivated/interested in levelling the job.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

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Also, Deveryn, other people have mentioned reworking how the Synch system works. Because you're forced to mindlessly press the ludicrously oversimplified and barebones ARR "rotation" as it stands. It doesn't need to screw over the difficulty, it just needs to make things enjoyable. Some people aren't against CT itself for being easy, they're against it for being boring.

imo allowing the synch to work that way would also let new players to see how later skills look like and feel motivated/interested in levelling the job.

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Regarding tone, I'm not going to make any effort to come across one way or another. People read stuff how they want to read it. I'm generally speaking very plainly. Someone goes on the attack and has a shitty idea... I let 'em know. I don't need other people to fight my battles. :)

I know there's no perfect world. I'm not looking for a perfect solution, but one that is a legitimate step forward. What's the point of changing things if the result is still the same, if not worse? The actual problem goes deeper than ilvl, but you and others want to blatantly ignore the facts in favor of some weird selfish crusade.

I'm not saying 'deal with it'. I'm asking if it's worth all this trouble. I posed the question of what anyone actually has to gain from the roulette that they can't get anywhere else and no one has dared answer... probably because that would prove me right on the point of alternatives existing. God forbid anyone should ever admit to being wrong about something.

If people want to be mad about it, that's fine, but at some point, they have to make a choice for themselves and their character. Be proactive and find another way or sulk here. Who knows when a change will come, if ever? Many of us have moved on and/or found other ways to handle this situation. That also affects the pool of players available for roulette.

Toying with sync doesn't fix the problem. What are you talking about with later skills though? I didn't see anything about an upward sync. If it was in the other thread, I'm starting to ignore it. Keep the damn convo in one place.

Can you maybe elaborate on some of these other points instead of talking about coin flips? It's actually the worst example because I can reliably flip a coin on the same side and get the same result every time.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Above post

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Yes, and if you can do that to a coin then you're willingly rigging it. Does it still count as random? That's the point.

And wasn't it in this thread where even Zebraoracle mentioned to you directly that one of the ideas posited was for them to rework the way level synch worked? So that when you synched down, your stats would synch down, but you wouldn't lose skills? Sure, it's not perfect, and it WOULD require work. But that's what they mean by that: invest in that work. Because as it stands, the further you get to lv 90, the more active and enjoyable the jobs tend to be. ARR's rotations are so barebones and barren that they don't even count as rotations. They're not fun. They're not engaging. They're boring and put people to sleep.

The issue isn't the difficulty of CT. If it's meant to be the easy alliance raid, then so be it. But if we're going to have them with this much frequency, at least allow the game to make them feel engaging rather than half an hour of the videogame equivalent of Xanax.

Edit: turns out no it wasn't, memory failed me. What Zebraoracle meant was item level synch.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

So that when you synched down, your stats would synch down, but you wouldn't lose skills? Sure, it's not perfect, and it WOULD require work. But that's what they mean by that: invest in that work

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The biggest problem with that design is that it's impossible to balance. How on earth do you balance Copperbell to accommodate the damage of a level 90 with the full kit and rotation and a level 20 with three buttons in the same party? Sure you can nerf the damage of level 90 into the ground to compensate, but who wants to do the whole song and dance just to get out DPS'd by a level 20 pressing one button?

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Originally Posted by magitekLuna

But you pay to be bored

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I don't actually. I just don't do it. Like old MSQ roulette. lol

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

The biggest problem with that design is that it's impossible to balance. How on earth do you balance Copperbell to accommodate the damage of a level 90 with the full kit and rotation and a level 20 with three buttons in the same party? Sure you can nerf the damage of level 90 into the ground to compensate, but who wants to do the whole song and dance just to get out DPS'd by a level 20 pressing one button?

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idk, how does Guild Wars 2 do it? When you go to a low level area, you still keep your skills, they don't go down with you. You'd be doing more damage than the average, sure, but is that so bad? There'd have to be a cap on stats and a greater understanding of how much APM there is. I did mention they'd have to work on it. And I did say it wasn't a perfect solution, but let's be real here: What even is?

Has anyone here presented a solution that actually helped?

Besides, I think the issue that what I said presents isn't really "oh lord, synching issues". It's more on how jobs are designed. Our lv 50 jobs are beyond boring, with jobs only coming into themselves at lv 70+
If we're going to implement such a thing, that's where I'd start fixing it. Otherwise implementing it blindly will of course garner even more problems than before. Hence why I said half a dozen times that people would need to WORK on it if they decided to go through with it.

I don't need to cheese ilvl to get CT, I never unlock other alliance raid to begin with. Big brain move on alts. And you have to generously bribe me to unlock them (especially the Ivalice raid).

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

I don't need to cheese ilvl to get CT, I never unlock other alliance raid to begin with. Big brain move on alts. And you have to generously bribe me to unlock them (especially the Ivalice raid).

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My alt is like this too, except I unlocked Ivalice thinking I might hit Bozja. I just won't get involved in that roulette or any other raids. :p

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

I don't need to cheese ilvl to get CT, I never unlock other alliance raid to begin with. Big brain move on alts. And you have to generously bribe me to unlock them (especially the Ivalice raid).

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

My alt is like this too, except I unlocked Ivalice thinking I might hit Bozja. I just won't get involved in that roulette or any other raids. :p

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To be fair, considering how much experience Alliance Raid roulette gives out, is it even worth unlocking the rest? Nevermind enjoyment of the raids and all that, we can set that aside for now. What I'm referring to is the rewards that such a roulette give.

I remember at one point Alliance Raid roulettes giving off more than what they currently give. Ironically enough, I feel like PvP gives more experience for the same amount of time. You still get exp even if you lose. And there are better alternatives to cap out on tomestones.

Ivalice Raids are just there to unlock Bozja now, meaning it's only ever a necessity if you plan on doing the Resistance Weapon. NieR and Mhach don't even have that, and it doesn't seem like Aglaia is going to have such incentives either.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

To be fair, considering how much experience Alliance Raid roulette gives out, is it even worth unlocking the rest? Nevermind enjoyment of the raids and all that, we can set that aside for now. What I'm referring to is the rewards that such a roulette give.

I remember at one point Alliance Raid roulettes giving off more than what they currently give. Ironically enough, I feel like PvP gives more experience for the same amount of time. You still get exp even if you lose. And there are better alternatives to cap out on tomestones.

Ivalice Raids are just there to unlock Bozja now, meaning it's only ever a necessity if you plan on doing the Resistance Weapon. NieR and Mhach don't even have that, and it doesn't seem like Aglaia is going to have such incentives either.

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I recall boss xp being a thing in alliance raids. I just saw someone level in Paradigm the other day. In that respect, I think it would be worth the unlock.

Alliance Raid bosses does gives experience.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Alliance Raid bosses does gives experience.

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Assuming this is true (as I don't feel like fact checking it myself), I suppose the question would then be of whether the experience they give is worth doing a non-CT alliance raid. If not, perhaps it should be buffed to incentivize players to unlock the higher level ones. A lot of players would take a slightly lesser reward if it means doing a lot less work, so the reward needs to be worth their while.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Assuming this is true (as I don't feel like fact checking it myself), I suppose the question would then be of whether the experience they give is worth doing a non-CT alliance raid. If not, perhaps it should be buffed to incentivize players to unlock the higher level ones. A lot of players would take a slightly lesser reward if it means doing a lot less work, so the reward needs to be worth their while.

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To give you one of my own anecdotal experience... for once I tried to farm for the Fending top from Rabanasty back in mid ShB era. I queued in manually as a GNB 36 times to get that top dropped. I started out from lv70 and ends somewhere around lv74 after the madness ends. Whether I had rested experience or not I don't quite remember, but I doubt I have any since it was a spamming done within a single week.

Now to what degree they should buff the experience to, I don't know.

I don't know if there is any real solution, but I provided a certain idea over in the JPN forums -

Basically split all the alliance lvls into their own roulette by:

50/60 Alliance raid
70/80 Alliance raid
90 Alliance raid

However the problem with my solution is you're splitting the player pool, and which will create way longer queues. Our player base has a tendency to gradually decline during non-major patches.

I wish there was a better solution, alternatively if there is not enough players within a certain amount of queue time then maybe give players a Echo Buff to compensate for a lack of players within each alliance lvl-range just like Bozja's Dungeons.

Another solution is creating Main Scenario - Alliance Raid, any Alliance Raids is that permanently tied to the story will go here and the cutscenes in Alliance raids are very short, so that could be a slightly better solution as these players can spam Crystal Tower to their heart's content.

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Originally Posted by Kaliesto

I don't know if there is any real solution, but I provided a certain idea over in the JPN forums -

Basically split all the alliance lvls into their own roulette by:

50/60 Alliance raid
70/80 Alliance raid
90 Alliance raid

However the problem with my solution is you're splitting the player pool, and which will create way longer queues. Our player base has a tendency to gradually decline during non-major patches.

I wish there was a better solution, alternatively if there is not enough players within a certain amount of queue time then maybe give players a Echo Buff to compensate for a lack of players within each alliance lvl-range just like Bozja's Dungeons.

Another solution is creating Main Scenario - Alliance Raid, any Alliance Raids is that permanently tied to the story will go here and the cutscenes in Alliance raids are very short, so that could be a slightly better solution as these players can spam Crystal Tower to their heart's content.

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Easier solution, move Crystal tower to 4man MSQ Roulette.

Base your queues on your character level, not your ilvl.

On a positive note, i finally was able to get copied factory done, queing on sunday evening aus time though which helped alot i would assume.

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Originally Posted by SnowVix

if you want to play an old-school MMO, FF XI is right there, still getting updates and still being supported.

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Nowadays the ilevel system starts to feel really old shool, especially in FFXIV that has Ilevel scaling systems in place and minimalistic stats system. (Btw there is an ilevel system in FFXI too)

As mentioned before, the ilevel scales after the level you are which then is required for using the Alliance Raid Roulette, so at level 60 you must be the min ilevel of Dun Scaith to be able to queu at all, as well add the requirements that you need to have completed each one of the raids at least once to be able to queu at all.

They do that for the other roulettes as well, so it is no biggie, likewise can put the same scaling onto all the other roulettes as well, so when you queu for you will always be tossed in the maximum pool of available raids and dungeons... the diverstiy would be quite the nice thing.

Continuing from my last post (post #83), the Trials roulette doesn't have the same problem as the Alliance roulette because the first two trials in every expansion doesn't check for your item level, only your character level.

Make the Alliance roulette only check your character level and scale up players to the minimum requirement for whatever raid you end up getting. That way you wont get people that have, for example, just reached Lv60 but they still use iLv130 gear and being put into Dun Scaith (min iLv235).

I'll just repeat my past suggestion of breaking Alliance roulette into multiple roulettes. CT roulette, Alliance roulette (60-current cap-10), Advanced Alliance roulette (level cap). Level sync is awful we need more ways to avoid it. Also if people want to run the most boring outdated content in FF14 then let them, but don't force me to join them.

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

I'll just repeat my past suggestion of breaking Alliance roulette into multiple roulettes. CT roulette, Alliance roulette (60-current cap-10), Advanced Alliance roulette (level cap). Level sync is awful we need more ways to avoid it. Also if people want to run the most boring outdated content in FF14 then let them, but don't force me to join them.

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Either this or let us block a handful of duties (1-2) out a roulette. I never want to see Sycrus again. At least WoD and Labyrinth can be interesting.

The easiest way to only hit cheesers is for the matchmaking to just stop looking at ilvl. People only lower their ilvl because it works. If it didnt, people wouldnt unequip stuff. The risk of running into tons of gearless people in alliance roulette are rather low in my estimations. The people that will be helped by this arent those who currently arent cheesing however, it's the people who queue for higher level raids, they will get quicker queues. The assumption that ilvl cheesers are moving the needle on how many CT runs are happening is not based on observable evidence. A possible outcome is that your chance at getting CT in roulette will actually increase because ilvl cheesers arent hogging up all the spots there anymore.

Willing to bet the bigger reason CT is the raid one gets is its the only raid players have to unlock and do for msq. I know players that have only unlocked that one and only that one and between that and players leveling other jobs, new players, and that being the lowest level raid like someone else mentioned matching so many players together thats the highest probability.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Ivalice Raids are just there to unlock Bozja now, meaning it's only ever a necessity if you plan on doing the Resistance Weapon. NieR and Mhach don't even have that, and it doesn't seem like Aglaia is going to have such incentives either.

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I wanted to level an alt job I had in the 70's in a hurry. Spam running dungeons gets really old really fast. Luckily this alt had Bozja unlocked. The XP she got there was enough for me to consider running the Ivalice raids so I can unlock it on another alt.

Honestly a-raid roulette simply isn't worth the bother, IMO. The XP is anemic and there are much better alternatives for tomes.

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Originally Posted by GeminiReed

I wanted to level an alt job I had in the 70's in a hurry. Spam running dungeons gets really old really fast. Luckily this alt had Bozja unlocked. The XP she got there was enough for me to consider running the Ivalice raids so I can unlock it on another alt.

Honestly a-raid roulette simply isn't worth the bother, IMO. The XP is anemic and there are much better alternatives for tomes.

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Well at least there's that for the Ivalice Raids, the EXP you get from Bozja.

:x But yeah, what you get from Alliance Raid Roulette itself isn't that great. I think it's only good if you really want to exhaust every possible available option.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...16/dgsdgsd.jpg

This is getting a bit much

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Ivalice raids are technically dead. Queued the other day for 1 hour before give up. Also got a friend that still didnt even complete those alliance raids for the first time for the same reason.

I've seen this posted before but like, at most I see 2-ish people cheesing a 24man queue. The fact that situations like the OP can happen really to me seems less like a cheese problem, and more like a glaring oversight in the queue system.

The game just needs to prioritize people better, and even if it makes some people need to wait 20 mins longer for the next "would-be" pop, it should see if someone's been waiting for like an hour longer than everyone else in queue for something specific, that it should just start taking qualifying people from the roulette specifically for that player's queue, which doesn't seem to be what it does now.

This is more an issue of the game not retaining players that actually play.

And with the way job design has been going, no one can blame them. Gameplay is cheeks right now.