YPYT is griefing. Tank role is not "puller" role

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Originally Posted by dspguy

While I might agree that I prefer wall-to-wall pulls and killing 2-3 sets of mobs vs just 1... if I'm going to exhibit the attitude you have, I would just go play a console game where I can control the other NPCs.

Other players aren't NPCs. If someone wants every dungeon to be played a certain way, every time, then go play a solo console game.

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Right so when three people want the tank to play a certain way and the tank doesn't, there's a problem.

I feel like this debate got out of hand.

Only thing that truly matters is sprint. As long as it’s 100% on cool down everything is going fine.

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Originally Posted by Axious

Only thing that truly matters is sprint. As long as it’s 100% on cool down everything is going fine.

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Sprint's duration is doubled if used out of combat. Portion of effective (i.e., actual useful) uptime of the Sprint buff would be a better indicator.

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Originally Posted by Axious

I would hope everyone knows that lol. Common knowledge.

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If you're recommending Sprint be used on cooldown, instead of occasionally waiting that extra second for combat to actually end...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Sprint's duration is doubled if used out of combat. Portion of effective (i.e., actual useful) uptime of the Sprint buff would be a better indicator.

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I would hope everyone knows that lol. Common knowledge.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

While I might agree that I prefer wall-to-wall pulls and killing 2-3 sets of mobs vs just 1... if I'm going to exhibit the attitude you have, I would just go play a console game where I can control the other NPCs.

Other players aren't NPCs. If someone wants every dungeon to be played a certain way, every time, then go play a solo console game.

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I guarantee that the single pulling tank is the one that you should be saying this to. They're the ones trying to control the speed in which the other people go through the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

I guarantee that the single pulling tank is the one that you should be saying this to. They're the ones trying to control the speed in which the other people go through the dungeon.

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That's just false

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

I guarantee that the single pulling tank is the one that you should be saying this to. They're the ones trying to control the speed in which the other people go through the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Harriks

That's just false

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They're literally just two speeds. Going slow is not somehow an inherent or tacit state any more than going fast is.

If I, as a single member not in accord with the majority opinion, pull another group and expect everyone else to continue doing their jobs, I am trying to control the speed in which other people go through the dungeon.

If I, as a single member not in accord with the majority opinion, pull only one group and harass anyone who attempts to pull more, I am trying to control the speed in which other people go through the dungeon.

What matters is whether the group wants faintly less stress per pull and to take twice as long, or wants slightly greater stress per pull and to take half as long. One's role is irrelevant to whether or not they are controlling that pace.

If a tank, without any communication, pulls only one group at a time, they are not only trying to control the speed of the group -- they are doing so. If they then communicate that they expect no one to pull extra (despite their never dipping below 70% HP), they are not only controlling that pace but also trying to deny any others' agency in regard to that pace, just as a person pulling ahead despite the 3 people asking them not to would be.

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

I guarantee that the single pulling tank is the one that you should be saying this to. They're the ones trying to control the speed in which the other people go through the dungeon.

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Isn't that the entire crux of the conversation? We are playing an MMO. Other players aren't robots.

"Hey, I'm playing an MMO. I want this other player to do what I say and sell me their Alkonost Whistle for 1 gil. Oh they aren't? Crappy player. "
"Hey, I'm playing an MMO. I want this other player to do what I say and relinquish their house so I can buy it. Oh they aren't? Crappy player."
"Hey, I'm playing an MMO. I want this other player to play the game the way I dictate it. Oh they aren't? Crappy player."

Just saying. It is a ridiculous argument. Best part is...

If people want to pull over the tank, go right ahead. Certain tanks can probably pull a single group and kill it solo while the group runs on ahead and gets slaughtered.

People having issues with how the tank are pulling should take advice that they've likely given to other players about other aspects of the game:

- don't want to deal with the cutscenes in MSQ roulette? Leave.
- don't like how some player is using quartermaster/master loot? Leave.
- don't like how the tank is pulling? Leave.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

If people want to pull over the tank, go right ahead. Certain tanks can probably pull a single group and kill it solo while the group runs on ahead and gets slaughtered.

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Or, you know, they go on to 3-man the full-pulls at still greater speed than working around the tank's insistence on single-pulls? That is the more frequent outcome when the tank is the 1 opposite the remaining 3, after all...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Or, you know, they go on to 3-man the full-pulls at still greater speed than working around the tank's insistence on single-pulls? That is the more frequent outcome when the tank is the 1 opposite the remaining 3, after all...

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Maybe they could. So problem solved. Why is this thread even at 130 posts? Clear it without the tank then.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Or, you know, they go on to 3-man the full-pulls at still greater speed than working around the tank's insistence on single-pulls? That is the more frequent outcome when the tank is the 1 opposite the remaining 3, after all...

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Somehow I feel like that doesn't happen at all in dungeons past level 50 if it's a group formed entirely through random matchmaking. DPS doesn't have the mitigation from gear needed to handle more than one pack at a time and the tankbusters on some bosses are going to be a problem once you get past the trash.

Probably it would work if its 3 savage raiders queueing together and the healer is SCH. The average player just doesn't have the skill level needed to pull it off in higher level dungeons and it's generally the average (or below player) you're running across in roulettes.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Somehow I feel like that doesn't happen at all in dungeons past level 50 if it's a group formed entirely through random matchmaking.

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Maybe it's just the time of nights, but... hasn't been that uncommon here. I've had a quite a few competent 3-man runs, be that a lack of heals or tank. Those were when most players were nearing or hitting the ilvl caps for said dungeons, true, but it came down mostly to who opened, use of sprint if we had a phys. ranged, and dropping some AoE damage in favor of ST so that the lower geared dps could pull off the higher-geared one as the first's mitigation CDs depletes.

Such was also common for speedrun leveling back in ARR, oddly enough, but it doesn't seem like it'd been completely forgotten / unable to be picked back up.

YPYT mentality is indeed ego issue.

On other hand setting pace for tank you don't know is toxic behavior.
Maybe it's someone new to tanking or player with slower reflexes or someone who gets stressed out seeing their HP bar jump up and down.
Personally i let tank go at pace he is comfortable with.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Such was also common for speedrun leveling back in ARR, oddly enough, but it doesn't seem like it'd been completely forgotten / unable to be picked back up.

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I can see the ARR dungeons happening without a tank's help (why I had said past level 50). And going in intentionally to do a 3 man run is very different from working with a party created through random matchmaking. If you're doing it intentionally, you're generally doing it with other players that you know and trust, who already know the dungeon thoroughly and are prepared for what needs to be done.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

I can see the ARR dungeons happening without a tank's help (why I had said past level 50). And going in intentionally to do a 3 man run is very different from working with a party created through random matchmaking. If you're doing it intentionally, you're generally doing it with other players that you know and trust, who already know the dungeon thoroughly and are prepared for what needs to be done.

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I said nothing about going in as a 3-man. Every one of those times was with a healer who went afk for 5+ minutes at a time, catching up a boss or more later, or a tank who attempted to hold a run hostage to their pace (which would sometimes even include reading the lore tidbits despite this having been after the inclusion of Exploration Mode).

I mentioned ARR speed-leveling via dungeons because at the time, non-traditional compositions were typically faster and tank enmity margins weren't so bloated, causing people to be more willing and ready to make use of HP bars beyond just the tank's.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

Why is this thread even at 130 posts?

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Oh thats easy. Tell someone(or a group of people) with an ego problem that they HAVE an ego problem, and they go into ego defense mode. Apparently for 130+ posts.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

I can see the ARR dungeons happening without a tank's help (why I had said past level 50).

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Ive been in dozens(hundreds?) of parties over the years where either the tank or healer had connection issues. Your roulette suddenly becomes a 3 man. If the party isnt confident, sure you can sit there for 5+ mins doing nothing hoping they return. If the tank is good? You shouldnt need a healer, just go. Is the healer good? Then you do not need a tank for really any dungeon. A tank doesnt make a dungeon run possible, they make it efficient. And of course, if the person who disco'd was a DPS, you dont really even notice. The fights just go a bit slower. Source: I have personally done this in every dungeon through the end of Shadowbringers, and some of the Endwalker dungeons too.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

It's only griefing if it's creating an unfavorable equilibrium of stress to pursuit of the party's interest. Most want to complete their daily in a reasonable time. Most do not want to be stressed in doing so. Being a team player is essentially acting the best you can towards both priorities.

If 3/4s of the party want to go faster, would not be stressed out by going faster, and are not bottlenecked by the tank (regardless of their refusing to use CDs or do anything but spam Unleash) for anything other than courtesy (undeserved, in this case), then the tank demanding the rest tiptoe around their domineering ego is the one griefing.


Consider: What's the stressor there? Not a content mechanic, but a social factor -- and from a single person, opposite a majority.

And if the tank refuses to take threat on those pulls, it's no longer incidental; it's intentional. How would that possibly not be griefing/trolling/gameplay sabotage? It is actively and disproportionately negatively affecting one's party, to a lower average quality for everyone, in a way that relies upon breaking from a much more fundamental responsibility (not just pulling and pace-setting, but actually tanking).

YPYT is purposely ignoring one's actual responsibilities (not just their typical perks/prerogatives) with the express purpose of harming other players in order to enforce a minority preference over that majority. That is, definitively, entitled griefing.

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Just as a quick note, people being against YPYT are definitely not in the Majority. I have no numbers to back that up, but I've been playing MMO's long time and people thinking DPS should be able to pull is very much a new thing and almost exclusive to this game.

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Originally Posted by Regentwill

Just as a quick note, people being against YPYT are definitely not in the Majority. I have no numbers to back that up, but I've been playing MMO's long time and people thinking DPS should be able to pull is very much a new thing and almost exclusive to this game.

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Never played XI eh?

Gotta be a real pussy as a tank to refuse to pick the mobs from another player lol, meow

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almost exclusive to this game.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Never played XI eh?

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I can admit that no I did not play Final Fantasy XI but see above quote. I said Almost, as there is nothing that is completely absolute. Those old games were more of how that was handled. Ranged DPS go out, pull the mob to the waiting group, group DPS's mobs down. I am aware of that, I did not play XI but I did play Everquest and I think the pulling system was similar. But pretty much from the introduction of instanced dungeons it has not been that way.

EDIT: Actually taking that into consideration, I can see why a lot of FFXI players who moved to FF14 (which makes sense) would not be aware that a lot of other games people play use a different pulling system. Kind of eye opening there.

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Originally Posted by Regentwill

I've been playing MMO's long time and people thinking DPS should be able to pull is very much a new thing and almost exclusive to this game.

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Which would those be, then?

Using whatever provides the most advantage, more so than fettering what a team can/should do to overgeneralized job descriptions, has been the norm in GW2, NWN, UO, AA, RO, RS/OSRS, WoW, TERA, ESO, Rift, B&S, BDO, FFXI, PSO, D2, <still missing a few, but this hardly need be exhaustive>...

The idea that "I have the right to ignore my typical responsibilities and to purposely PK my party members if their preference, even if it outnumbers by own, differs from mine, so long as I have <Role Title X>" on the other hand? Not so much.

Please keep in mind the argument is for FF14 which means I am comparing it to other games like FF14. That I'd, games with the holy trinity or compatible group dynamic (like rift) as well as instanced dungeons with a set number. In almost all games like you have mentioned that are in that category have two responses to the dps or healer pulling ahead of the tank in a random group. Either the tank goes YPYT or the tank leaves the dungeon and due to the fact that these kinds of games are low on tanks the group complains about diva tanks and the group disbands.

I just got off work and on my phone so sorry about typos. I can't find how to edit. I have played:
EQ, Ultima online, ragnarok online, WoW, flyff, aion, age of Conan, GW1 and GW2 though GW1 was really more just a pvp game. Um, Wildstar which RIP underrated game. Rift, War and I still play War on the private server. A lot of ESO. I did play EQ2 for a while but it's just not a great game. D2 definitely a lot of that and reloaded. I did play BDO but only for like 9 months after release. Good pvp. Lost Ark and albion online.Archage and lord of the rings 0nline but I haven't gone back since f2p. Probably quite a few more.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Never played XI eh?

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As far as DPS pulling in FFXI, that was a very different game than FFXIV. There was an actual death penalty (/gasp!) and if you wanted to keep the exp coming through exp chains, you had to send out the DPS (or the BRD, which was not a DPS in that game) to pull while the group finished off the last 20% or so of the mob's HP.

Death in FFXIV is a joke. If the tank fails to use mitigation or the healer messes up, you lose...what? A minute or two of time running back and pulling again. You lose no experience, no gil, and very little time. But, when everyone is accustomed to 12-18 minute dungeons, those 2 minutes seem like forever. In FFXI, if your party wiped, you didn't just lose 10 minutes rezzing and waiting for weakness to wear off, you probably lost 30 minutes of experience for that death.

in FFXI, it was in your best interest, truly, to prevent deaths. And you'd have those rare occasions when the puller would eat a death to not train the group with 3-4 mobs. You could raise up just the puller, toss a stoneskin on them and they could continue to pull while weak.

YPYT is a silly conversation to have. In all content outside of Bozja, adding more enemies to a pull is rarely a problem. The tank is AOEing anyway and will pull hate with one attack once the mobs are in the group. Killing 5 enemies takes as much time as 10 or 15, as long as the group can take them down fast enough while the tank and healer manage HP. But, it doesn't mean you can force a tank into pulling more than they are comfortable with. That's duty finder for you.

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Originally Posted by Regentwill

but I've been playing MMO's long time and people thinking DPS should be able to pull is very much a new thing and almost exclusive to this game.

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In EQ, Monks were preferred as pullers, and they were clearly DPS.
In EQ2, Monks were also pullers, but they were strangely considered tanks (the least tanky of the tanks).
FFXI (as noted earlier), pulls were commonly done by any party member that made sense. I saw tanks do it, healers, bards, DPS. But, I'd say it non-tanks were in the majority.
In LOTRO, tanks were pullers. I don't recall the reasoning why, but generally speaking, they were pullers.
In Vanguard (which was supposed to be a new-age EQ1), tanks were pullers. Enemies hit too hard and seemed to always be faster than players, so it was tough for anyone else to pull.
In WoW, I think it was commonly the tank, but other jobs were also viable. In some instances, it was more about pulling to not aggro everything else and experience was more important than the class doing it.

FFXIV is different in that the meta is for the pull to always be wall-to-wall. The goal is to aggro everything. It isn't like nearly every other game where you are excising only a few mobs since anything more would overrun your party.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

In EQ, Monks were preferred as pullers, and they were clearly DPS.
In EQ2, Monks were also pullers, but they were strangely considered tanks (the least tanky of the tanks).
FFXI (as noted earlier), pulls were commonly done by any party member that made sense. I saw tanks do it, healers, bards, DPS. But, I'd say it non-tanks were in the majority.
In LOTRO, tanks were pullers. I don't recall the reasoning why, but generally speaking, they were pullers.
In Vanguard (which was supposed to be a new-age EQ1), tanks were pullers. Enemies hit too hard and seemed to always be faster than players, so it was tough for anyone else to pull.
In WoW, I think it was commonly the tank, but other jobs were also viable. In some instances, it was more about pulling to not aggro everything else and experience was more important than the class doing it.

FFXIV is different in that the meta is for the pull to always be wall-to-wall. The goal is to aggro everything. It isn't like nearly every other game where you are excising only a few mobs since anything more would overrun your party.

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But that's talking about content where there were specific reasons it would be better for a DPS to pull instead of the tank. Tanks many times would not have any ranged abilities so if you wanted to separate part of a pack out to kill first before getting to the rest, you needed a DPS to pull. Same if you needed to use crowd control - DPS had those tools while the tank rarely had more than a stun or interrupt that would only work in melee range.

Those situations are not an issue in this game. I don't know if they were in the distant past but they're certainly not an issue now. There are no reasons to have a DPS pull here in dungeons, It is always safer to let the tank do it so mobs are coming straight to the tank instead of scattering.

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Originally Posted by Regentwill

Please keep in mind the argument is for FF14 which means I am comparing it to other games like FF14. That I'd, games with the holy trinity or compatible group dynamic (like rift) as well as instanced dungeons with a set number. In almost all games like you have mentioned that are in that category have two responses to the dps or healer pulling ahead of the tank in a random group. Either the tank goes YPYT or the tank leaves the dungeon and due to the fact that these kinds of games are low on tanks the group complains about diva tanks and the group disbands.

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I can't think of any "modern MMO" game where the tank is the dedicated or designated puller. In modern games, it literally does not matter who pulls. This includes all of WoW for its entire history and all of FF14 for its entire history. It does not and never has mattered who pulls. It may have taken more than literally one input to secure aggro on mobs in earlier versions of these games but it was still not the tank's "job" to pull. It was whoever felt confident doing so. Indeed, at times in WoW, it was sometimes preferable for a ranged class to pull because their attacks or spells had a longer reach than the tank's ranged attacks or pulls. Or because a Hunter could, for example, use Misdirection to apply their aggro to the tank while they pulled the monsters, which ensured they'd go right for the tank. But in no case was there ever a "designated puller" for content.

For older MMOs like FF11, EQ, etc - it was frequently that a tank was *NOT* the "designated puller" for one reason or another. Sometimes they were, sometimes they weren't.

Regardless, YPYT has always been a toxic mentality and behavior that's largely grounded in egotism, not any kind of reality. It happens in FF14 because Square-Enix goes out of their way to try and make each and every tank feel like they're special boys and girls and they're making a big sacrifice to play such a hard and demanding job... but that couldn't be further from the truth. Tank is unquestionably the easiest role in the game to play, especially above dungeons/normals, where DPS tend to just outright die if they get hit by things they ain't supposed to get hit by, and enrage timers mean that suddenly you can't really get away with playing your freestyle SAM anymore.

I wasn't around for it, but I'm lead to believe that tanking was a bit trickier in HW, so maybe that's why they felt the need to add mounts and special ego-stroking achievements? I played WAR during ARR and it wasn't particularly challenging to maintain aggro and stay alive, but I've heard HW made things messy by adding a DPS stance to tanks.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

There are no reasons to have a DPS pull here in dungeons, It is always safer to let the tank do it so mobs are coming straight to the tank instead of scattering.

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Not really? Aggro is very basic and easy to understand. If the archer hits a monster and pulls a pack, all of those monsters will default to chasing the archer. If the healer does any healing after this point, they will probably swap to the healer. In any case, as long as the archer or healer are in a direct line between those monsters and the tank, they will get scooped up by the tank automatically because the tank is spamming AOEs the whole time.

And even if the tank misses one, monsters in dungeons/normals hit like wet noodles. You can quite literally clear dungeons without a tank, and this is probably by design. I've cleared plenty of dungeons by healer-tanking them after a tank gets disconnected mid-pull and no one felt like waiting for them.

A few days ago I went into YPYT mode.
It was a bard in the last EW msq dungeon and he single targeted one add while I was pulling.
The bard was also just playing one song and refreshed the dots one by one, but that is a other story.

He tanked that add where he stopped running, so I had to use provoke to get it.
At the third pull and after my advice of using all songs back to back was ignored I started to ignore his add.

Just AOEd down everything else while he dropped lower and lower until he realised and ran into the other adds.

Sadly he didn't got the hint and did the same for all remaining pulls.
Take Aggro of one add, kept it in Narnia until he dropped to 10%hp and got emergency healed and then he brought it to me.

I simply don't trust the DPS to be clever enough to bring the adds they pulled to the tanks.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

Regardless, YPYT has always been a toxic mentality and behavior that's largely grounded in egotism, not any kind of reality.

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It depends how it is framed.

While talking about other MMOs, it boils down to the group has to work together. If we were talking about FFXI, if the healer says "I'm not ready" (due to MP or some other reason), if the puller were to pull anyway... YPYT. If it was EQ1 and the monk was pulling and the group says they aren't ready (usually because mages need to rest mana/MP), chances are, that monk is going to eat it.

Usually a group being ready is combination of:
- healer has enough resources (MP) to handle the pull, otherwise the group will die
- other mages have enough resources (commonly MP) to kill quick enough, otherwise the group will die
- tank's aggro abilities are not on cooldown (issue in some non-FFXIV games), otherwise the group will die
- everyone else is not AFK, otherwise the group will die (what is this? A MizzTeq guide video?)

Usually it is combination of the team being "secure" in their ability to take down the enemy and the puller works in concert with the group. Some pullers would simply "pull over" the readiness of the group. And after a warning or two, I could see the rest of the group not engaging and letting the puller die.

I think YPYT comes across as toxic but sometimes it is in reaction to toxic behavior in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

I can't think of any "modern MMO" game where the tank is the dedicated or designated puller. In modern games, it literally does not matter who pulls. This includes all of WoW for its entire history and all of FF14 for its entire history. It does not and never has mattered who pulls. It may have taken more than literally one input to secure aggro on mobs in earlier versions of these games but it was still not the tank's "job" to pull. It was whoever felt confident doing so. Indeed, at times in WoW, it was sometimes preferable for a ranged class to pull because their attacks or spells had a longer reach than the tank's ranged attacks or pulls. Or because a Hunter could, for example, use Misdirection to apply their aggro to the tank while they pulled the monsters, which ensured they'd go right for the tank. But in no case was there ever a "designated puller" for content.



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I'm not going to offer a rebuttal to this since I've already talked about these games. Any modern game with the holy trinity by and large uses tank pulls. What you are saying is wrong. I've played those games, I've been deep in the community. WoW has NEVER had a time where DPS pulled to the tank with the one exception of pulls where a hunter had to use a special ability that sent their aggro the the tank. And that was used rarely to pull and more often to boost aggro when the tank pulls. Rogues aggro shift was used on other DPS most of the time for a DPS boost and not to pull.

I don't know how you could possibly think that in WoW DPS were pullers.

WTB Feign Death for my Bard hehe.

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Originally Posted by Regentwill

I don't know how you could possibly think that in WoW DPS were pullers.

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Because they were? You just cited two initially frequent examples (MD and TotT, though no, the latter was not used for a DPS boost -- it had no dps boost outside of certain short-lived [or, "borrowed"] powers; the PvE form of Honor Among Thieves was party-wide, not specific to the Rogue's TotT target).

But even without threat-transfer, if there's a melee enemy and you have the means to slow it permanently to 70% movement, why would one prefer to take even a tank's amount of damage (which was scarcely less, originally, than any plate DPS) over just taking none, especially so long as it's near enough to the tank-held mobs that everyone's cleaving all of them anyways?

It was only after repeated tank buffs to the point that most tanks largely didn't need a healer even for relatively challenging dungeon content that parties basically stopped bothering with the complete mitigation of kiting melee mobs, threat management to time when the tank takes over, any CC beyond AoE stuns, etc., and just ran to boss, AoEed everything down, and repeated.

Heck, when heroic first came out, pulls began with all but tanks. Hard CC, Misdirection (ideally), ranged pull usually from a DPS. The more precise and/or dangerous the pull, the less you see it rely entirely on the tank; it becomes a matter of the most effective use of toolkit(s), not "I have the shield graphic, so only I pull."

Is it surprising then that XIV, for which any mainstay content with more than a single pull per instance devolves into "run to gate, AoE everything, repeat, boss; repeat"? Not especially. But even here it has its occasional unique utility. Mobs out of range of tank AoEs? A Ranged shot pulls them in sooner so they're caught by it, facilitating that tank's use of its kit. Add spawns that will be diverted to the healer, who's set up for the next mechanic and cannot stack towards boss? Ranged can pull them in with a quick Rain of Death so the tanks aren't wasting time. Etc.

And while buffing the living hell out of tanks may diminish the rewards for playing as a team instead of just zug-zugging any and all dungeons, the one thing it doesn't do is increase the penalty for someone else pulling so long as they don't do so in an utterly idiotic fashion. As all unavoidable damage will be concentrated on the tank once they have full threat, so long as others do not consume any healing/tank resources inefficiently in accelerating a gather, what health they lose is just bonus eHP for the tank.

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Originally Posted by Regentwill

I'm not going to offer a rebuttal to this since I've already talked about these games. Any modern game with the holy trinity by and large uses tank pulls. What you are saying is wrong. I've played those games, I've been deep in the community. WoW has NEVER had a time where DPS pulled to the tank with the one exception of pulls where a hunter had to use a special ability that sent their aggro the the tank. And that was used rarely to pull and more often to boost aggro when the tank pulls. Rogues aggro shift was used on other DPS most of the time for a DPS boost and not to pull.

I don't know how you could possibly think that in WoW DPS were pullers.

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I'm saying there weren't any "designated pullers" in WoW. There wasn't any reason to make it "only tanks may pull." It was irrelevant who pulled. That said, there were many cases where you'd prefer someone other than the tank pull. If a Hunter needs to trap a specific enemy or otherwise have enemies run into a trap at a specific place, it might be easier for the Hunter to do the pull. It doesn't *have* to be the Hunter, anyone can do it, but in those cases you'd generally default to having the Hunter pull them so they can control exactly where they go.

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Originally Posted by Regentwill

I'm not going to offer a rebuttal to this since I've already talked about these games. Any modern game with the holy trinity by and large uses tank pulls. What you are saying is wrong. I've played those games, I've been deep in the community. WoW has NEVER had a time where DPS pulled to the tank with the one exception of pulls where a hunter had to use a special ability that sent their aggro the the tank. And that was used rarely to pull and more often to boost aggro when the tank pulls. Rogues aggro shift was used on other DPS most of the time for a DPS boost and not to pull.

I don't know how you could possibly think that in WoW DPS were pullers.

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Because they could. Hunters were consistantly used especially in dungeons like Molten Core to pull far off mobs, run back and feign death just before the raid nabbed incoming. I played WoW for 8 yrs and perfprmed that plenty of times.

95% of the time in WoW tanks pulled, noon else, only times it wouldn't be was in old dungeons if you had a mage do a sheep pull or hunter trap pull, that's it, but even then, the tank would mark what to cc first.

Same in FF14, out of all the dungeons I've done, maybe once or twice there was a person pulling more on purpose.

Same with ESO, swtor, Tera, any mmo I've ever played.

Regentwill is right, it's common courtesy in mmo's to let the tank set the pace and pull vast majority of time in random dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

95% of the time in WoW tanks pulled, noon else, only times it wouldn't be was in old dungeons if you had a mage do a sheep pull or hunter trap pull, that's it, but even then, the tank would mark what to cc first.

Same in FF14, out of all the dungeons I've done, maybe once or twice there was a person pulling more on purpose.

Same with ESO, swtor, Tera, any mmo I've ever played.

Regentwill is right, it's common courtesy in mmo's to let the tank set the pace and pull vast majority of time in random dungeons.

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No, it's not. It's not "common courtesy." The person that marked targets for CC was the person who had the most experience in the content, not the tank. That's still the case.

And the person that sets the pace in dungeons in XIV is the *healer*, not the tank.

Healer sets nothing in FF14, and that's coming from someone who mainly plays one and does dungeons daily.

Tank just goes sprinting in and pulls as much as they know they can handle or hit the wall, rest follow him and do their thing.

Because, who wipes in dungeons?

Exactly, you almost never wipe, because they're not that hard to do at all, and in the tiny 1% offchance you do wipe, you can slow down sure, but other then that, tank pulls and sets the pace, period.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

95% of the time in WoW tanks pulled, noon else, only times it wouldn't be was in old dungeons if you had a mage do a sheep pull or hunter trap pull, that's it, but even then, the tank would mark what to cc first.

Same in FF14, out of all the dungeons I've done, maybe once or twice there was a person pulling more on purpose.

Same with ESO, swtor, Tera, any mmo I've ever played.

Regentwill is right, it's common courtesy in mmo's to let the tank set the pace and pull vast majority of time in random dungeons.

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I always deferred to the tank or raid leader also but then that was back when courtesy to your members was paramount and not just some alpha tank barreling from one set of mobs and or boss to another with zero words or a care for the rest of the group :).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

Healer sets nothing in FF14, and that's coming from someone who mainly plays one and does dungeons daily.

Tank just goes sprinting in and pulls as much as they know they can handle or hit the wall, rest follow him and do their thing.

Because, who wipes in dungeons?

Exactly, you almost never wipe, because they're not that hard to do at all, and in the tiny 1% offchance you do wipe, you can slow down sure, but other then that, tank pulls and sets the pace, period.

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Again: no. The healer is who sets the pace. Prior to tanks getting their EW skills, they *cannot* survive a full W2W with a healer that's asleep at the wheel. Nor can the healer keep the tank alive if the DPS aren't doing their jobs.

Go pull W2W in Mt. Gulg with a weak healer or bad DPS and tell me again that it's the tank that sets the pace.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

And the person that sets the pace in dungeons in XIV is the *healer*, not the tank.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

Healer sets nothing in FF14, and that's coming from someone who mainly plays one and does dungeons daily.

Tank just goes sprinting in and pulls as much as they know they can handle or hit the wall, rest follow him and do their thing.

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I think you may each be approaching "sets the pace" a little differently.

The tank is free to run ahead, pull all a dangerous number of mobs and --if not a Warrior-- die for having done so. Of course, so is everyone else. Does that count, then, as setting the pace?

The tank's decision, if made deliberately, to pull X amount of mobs will usually be informed by the available throughput of their healer and damage-dealers. Does that mean that the healer and damage-dealers, in turn, set the pace?

More importantly, though, does it matter? If the success of a given pull in any content with both difficulty and a chance that not all CDs will be up depends on every role, does it much matter whether a player forces or merely informs pull length?

Should the fact that a Warrior, for instance, can solo almost every existing dungeon (due to their presently pitiful difficulty in this game) mean that the only relevant "pace-setter" could ever be tanks? Across all (or even potential) content types?
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Tl;dr:

I feel like too often consequences of XIV's idiosyncrasies (almost no difficult 4-man content, zero CC, high degrees of homogeneity across all classes of a given role, little to no team interaction beyond raid buff stacking, a community that more than most prefers reliability over exploration, etc.) are taken as fundamental and pervasive when they're anything but.

Here, because the relevant content is so limited in scope and complexity, a tank may be the one who typically "sets the pace" (in the sense of carrying the least expectation to discuss or even tacitly show the reasoning behind their decisions in the size or pace of their pulls), but that's simply because of that narrowness of the content. It is not fundamental.

And, more importantly, what those contexts have taken from the rewards for ingenuity (kiting, CC, threat-handoffs, etc.), they've also reduced from the opportunity costs of anyone pulling so long as they don't do so in the dumbest of ways.