New Unreal is a an all around miserable experience.

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Originally Posted by Arazehl

Like momma always said. "If you can't take the heat, ask yoshida to nerf the damage of fire"

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Fix'd. :^)

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Originally Posted by Issaella

You have Sav, Ultimate, and Ex. Why can't we have 1 piece of content that people can do without hours upon hours of misery?

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It is called Normal mode, Unreal is EX difficulty with actual caps on, so you have to beat it more on level and not 40 ilevels above in a figure of speech, in ways it could be seen as Ultimate trials.

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Originally Posted by Rysoku

Imagine thinking clear and reclearing p2s is torture in pf. This last tier savage p1s and p2s are on the joke level. Not even savage. I am glad this game bring some difficulty back. IF you think p1s and p2s is actually savage content. Then you are making a big mistake. This game already made it SO EASY for new or players like you. stop complaining. Go do some old content in mini ilvl

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Bro, we all start somewhere lol. I was being a little mean with my earlier comments, but if you're new to high-end content I can definitely see how & why the new unreal would throw you off, especially when you've never hit the harder stuff.

I disagree with the OP's mindset that it should be nerfed so it can be more accessible. I'm also bad at the game and wouldn't want to ruin the more hard aspects of the game for people who enjoy it. I myself want to clear the unreal and I want to do it feeling proud that I have cleared hard content and that I have contributed to my group by pulling my weight.

I disagree that the OP should do min ilvl content tho. Your mindset is what turns casuals off from difficult content in the first place. When people start telling casuals/newcomers to hard content to get lost and keep playing baby mode, you're effectively encouraging them to never experience the fun you see in completing hard content.

In my belief, the OP probably has a bit of anxiety/defeatist attitude (this isn't to psychoanalyze you OP, just an assessment of what I gathered from your tone from these posts, mixing with a bit of my anecdotal experience of coming into hardcore content in this game) and has hit a wall on knowing how to progress further into content like this. There is real value in the fact that a newcomer, with no experiences of statics/PF progging before, will be in PF limbo. The correct response should be encouragement and pointing them to resources - that's all you should (and could) do. The rest would be up to the OP to either give up or push past those fears/nervousness and to use those resources or not.

Again, we all start somewhere and at some point I'm sure most of us has felt a little nervous or uneasiness at going into hard content, especially if XIV is your first MMO. Instead of telling the OP get lost, maybe next time keep your mouth shut or be one of the multiple voices of reason as to why content like this should stay.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Sephirot wiping the floor with his contenders is an experience mid content players need. Humbling those who grew complacent in the 'break' in Unreal difficulty with UW, and those who think additional skills will trivialize the content and somehow make them better at mechanics. The strict requirements I am seeing in PF are also a testament to this very frustration I speak of. Don't get me wrong,

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First off, don't presume to tell me what level of challenge I should enjoy in a video game. I get my fill of anxiety and disappointment in rl, I don't need it from what is ostensibly supposed to be an enjoyable hobby. I'm seeing this mentality infect multiplayer games and MMOs in general in the last few years. That the end-game content and rewards should be exclusively for people in upper skill percentile and everyone else should "git gud" or shut-up/leave because their opinions don't matter. And that to engage with said content you should be happy wiping for 10s of hours and being miserable because that is the road to enjoyment. I don't understand this mentality at all.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I don't find enjoyment in players not having fun; but players who can't handle it when they've hit a little bit of an incline are provided a service I feel is long overdue.

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I kinda seems like you do. You seem to delight in people repeatedly failing at content you can do easily because of some misguided idea that if you make them miserable enough they will get to your level. God forbid people have lower skill levels and ask for something to be a level of challenge between auto-piloting Expert/Normal and meatgrinder Sav/Ex and now Unreal. It seems like whenever people do ask for something in between the immediate response is always some variation of "git gud", "stop trying to take away my hardcore content", or "lol no one cares about your opinion scrub".

Why does every piece of high-end content have to cater to the top 20-5% of people who can clear savage (this Unreal is at least on par with an early or mid range Sav from last tier in my experience)? Because we know those are the actual number from clearing the first and last fight of a tier while it's current. Can't there be something for the rest of us that doesn't require 100% of our mental energy for hours on end just to break through a wall?

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Originally Posted by Padudu

When people ask why we can't have difficult/hard content, this is why lol.

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Unreal is supposed to be EX level content that is ilvl synced, nothing more, nothing less.

If it's tuned harder than that it should be adjusted.

But back on topic, most people saw this coming. Sephirot was always a bad EX and the number of people who think they know the mechs just because they cleared it "unsynced" is showing.

The FFXIV devs are going to have the data on the clear rate for this and I'm sure they'll adjust accordingly. . . yeah right.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Unreal is supposed to be EX level content that is ilvl synced, nothing more, nothing less.

If it's tuned harder than that it should be adjusted.

But back on topic, most people saw this coming. Sephirot was always a bad EX and the number of people who think they know the mechs just because they cleared it "unsynced" is showing.

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Well, yeah, this is still hard/difficult content to the majority of the players lol. Ultima was never adjusted despite it being easy to clear so why should Sephirot? FTR I don't think it's all too bad altho I haven't cleared it yet/never experienced the OG fight.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

First off, don't presume to tell me what level of challenge I should enjoy in a video game. I get my fill of anxiety and disappointment in rl, I don't need it from what is ostensibly supposed to be an enjoyable hobby. I'm seeing this mentality infect multiplayer games and MMOs in general in the last few years. That the end-game content and rewards should be exclusively for people in upper skill percentile and everyone else should "git gud" or shut-up/leave because their opinions don't matter. And that to engage with said content you should be happy wiping for 10s of hours and being miserable because that is the road to enjoyment. I don't understand this mentality at all.



I kinda seems like you do. You seem to delight in people repeatedly failing at content you can do easily because of some misguided idea that if you make them miserable enough they will get to your level. God forbid people have lower skill levels and ask for something to be a level of challenge between auto-piloting Expert/Normal and meatgrinder Sav/Ex and now Unreal. It seems like whenever people do ask for something in between the immediate response is always some variation of "git gud", "stop trying to take away my hardcore content", or "lol no one cares about your opinion scrub".

Why does every piece of high-end content have to cater to the top 20-5% of people who can clear savage (this Unreal is at least on par with an early or mid range Sav from last tier in my experience)? Because we know those are the actual number from clearing the first and last fight of a tier while it's current. Can't there be something for the rest of us that doesn't require 100% of our mental energy for hours on end just to break through a wall?

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There can be but it's not unreal. Unreal is specifically designed to reproduce the experience of an ex fight like it came out. Min ilvl no echo can not provide that because of how many balance changes there have been since those fights came out. Sephirot extreme was really hard when it came out, therefore sephirot unreal is supposed to be just as hard. The type of content you are looking for very well might be min ilvl no echo runs of old ex trials and old savage.

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Originally Posted by Padudu

Well, yeah, this is still hard/difficult content to the majority of the players lol. Ultima was never adjusted despite it being easy to clear so why should Sephirot? FTR I don't think it's all too bad altho I haven't cleared it yet/never experienced the OG fight.

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OG fight was incredibly tough. I remember healing it as SCH, the amount of shields I needed out to help with raidwides was intense. The good old days, when most of SCH and WHM's healing was attached to their GCDs.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

Why does every piece of high-end content have to cater to the top 20-5% of people who can clear savage

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You are joking...?

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Originally Posted by Issaella

Can't there be something for the rest of us that doesn't require 100% of our mental energy for hours on end just to break through a wall?

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Yes. Dungeons, normal trials, glamour, gold saucer, beast tribes, gardening, crafting, normal raids, island sanctuary, sightseeing, wondrous tails, pvp, there's an entire game worth of endgame stuff for casuals. But ONE savage tier releases in a six month period and woooooah nelly, the whoooooole endgame focuses on those darn elitist savage raiders.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

It seems like whenever people do ask for something in between the immediate response is always some variation of "git gud", "stop trying to take away my hardcore content", or "lol no one cares about your opinion scrub".

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I agree, this game sorely, SORELY lacks a midcore. Square should create some. Unreal is upscaled minimum item level EX trials, not sure where the expectation comes from that they be "midcore" other than that they picked an incredibly easy trial for the last rotation. The immediate response is always "stop trying to take away hardcore content" for a good reason: because the casuals don't ask Square to *create* a midcore. They ask for what you're asking for: to gut the small amount of difficult content we have and piece together a midcore from its entrails. You are *literally* asking to take away hardcore content to shape a midcore out of it, not sure why you're baffled at people telling you to, you know, "stop trying to take away hardcore content".

When Square nerfs things, they don't replace them with more hardcore stuff. They just leave it easy, and the ever encroaching casuals complaining about difficult content keep gaining ground. Savage is pretty much as easy as it's ever been. EX trials can be cleared they week of release without healers. Job design is as simplified as it's ever been. What *exactly* have hardcore players gained in the last three expansions other than the occasional Ultimate?

I think the craziest thing to me, as I've been reading this thread, is that someone is complaining that hard content that's supposed to be hard, is actually hard.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

You are joking...?

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No, there should be challenging activities to do in the endgame for a variety of playstyles/skill levels. You know like most other MMOs have? GW2 has multiple tiers of fractals and raids. WoW has multiple tiers of raids and M+ (as much as I hate M+). Endgame=/=max difficulty or nothing. Something the developers in FF14 don't seem to understand.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Yes. Dungeons, normal trials, glamour, gold saucer, beast tribes, gardening, crafting, normal raids, island sanctuary, sightseeing, wondrous tails, pvp, there's an entire game worth of endgame stuff for casuals. But ONE savage tier releases in a six month period and woooooah nelly, the whoooooole endgame focuses on those darn elitist savage raiders.

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None of those are challenging activities. Those are casual activities meant to be done by anyone, but then you know that because you are just setting up a straw-man that you can pick apart. Normal Raids and Expert dungeons are not challenging to me in the slightest, I 1-shot them day 1, I'm bored with them after a couple weeks. Conversely Sav/Ex and the new Unreal require me to invest so much energy/effort that is ceases to be a fun challenge to overcome and just turns into how many hours am I willing to get kicked in the you-know-what just to get a stupid piece of gear or a cosmetic. I can do it, at least some of it, it's just not enjoyable, at all. It's either faceroll or meat-grinder, those are the only two options, there is literally no challenging content to do in between. And I just don't really have the energy/tolerance to engage with meat-grinder anymore so I'm left with nothing to do. In the prev patch Unreal filled in that gap, now it's back to auto-piloting Normal/Expert and that, tbh, pisses me off.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

It's either faceroll or meat-grinder, those are the only two options, there is literally no challenging content to do in between.

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I just did Extreme #4 and I gotta say there's your in between content. Cleared it within 3-4 pulls in a party that said fresh prog. It uses the most basic end game mechanics like splitting to light parties and spreading to positions. You can farm it occasionally and do 50 clears for the mount.

But oh wait.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

Only this time around there nothing drawing me into Sav because I don't like the armors nor do I like the weapons for Ex4.

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You're not happy with the reward.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

The good old days, when most of SCH and WHM's healing was attached to their GCDs.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

The good old days.

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Alright, you ol' Hrothgar grandpa. It's time to get you to bed...

In all seriousness, I kind of wish I stuck through ARR back then lol. I kind of regret stopping right before Crystal Tower. :P I would've loved to experience what the game played like back then, if only to get a feel for it.

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Originally Posted by Padudu

Alright, you ol' Hrothgar grandpa. It's time to get you to bed...

In all seriousness, I kind of wish I stuck through ARR back then lol. I kind of regret stopping right before Crystal Tower. :P I would've loved to experience what the game played like back then, if only to get a feel for it.

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Was a lot harder. A heavy pull in a dungeon required everybody in the party to be good (and for your connection to be stable as a tank/healer) because you needed to rotate cooldowns as a tank or you'd die quickly. The healer needed to be on the ball with healing or the tank would die quickly. DPS would need to burn the mobs down quickly or the tank would die quickly. Keep in mind that it was easy to run out of MP and TP back in those days too, so deaths were painful, and it was very common to wipe to heavy pulls (Neverreap was pure evil for this).

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Originally Posted by Issaella

First off, don't presume to tell me what level of challenge I should enjoy in a video game. I get my fill of anxiety and disappointment in rl, I don't need it from what is ostensibly supposed to be an enjoyable hobby.

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Different people need different difficulties to have fun. Most people get bored when things are too easy for them, and frustrated when things are too hard.

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I'm seeing this mentality infect multiplayer games and MMOs in general in the last few years. That the end-game content and rewards should be exclusively for people in upper skill percentile and everyone else should "git gud" or shut-up/leave because their opinions don't matter. And that to engage with said content you should be happy wiping for 10s of hours and being miserable because that is the road to enjoyment. I don't understand this mentality at all.

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You don't need to understand the appeal of hard content to respect that there's an audience for it. I don't understand the appeal of standing in Limsa posing.

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God forbid people have lower skill levels and ask for something to be a level of challenge between auto-piloting Expert/Normal and meatgrinder Sav/Ex and now Unreal. It seems like whenever people do ask for something in between the immediate response is always some variation of "git gud", "stop trying to take away my hardcore content", or "lol no one cares about your opinion scrub".

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Yeah, that's because you're trying to solve the problem of 'not enough gameplay at my skill level' by pushing that problem onto other people. I'd be curt with you as well even though I actually agree that there's not enough mid-core content.

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Can't there be something for the rest of us that doesn't require 100% of our mental energy for hours on end just to break through a wall?

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You can get every Faux Hollows item from Wondrous Tails, FATEs, or market board. Point out the rewards that are being withheld from you because you can't clear the current Unreal.

Or is it the experience of easier fights themselves you want? Because FF14's syncing options offer a very broad spectrum of difficulty for re-playing old content. Regular Sephi EX can often be cleared in one lockout using normal sync with echo, for example.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

None of those are challenging activities. Those are casual activities meant to be done by anyone, but then you know that because you are just setting up a straw-man that you can pick apart.

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Widely disseminating the catchy names of logical fallacies was a mistake. Nobody actually knows what they mean. I quoted your own words at you. That's not a "straw man". That's me disagreeing with you. I even agreed that this game needs a midcore in my next statement, but your need to complain about hard content existing supersedes your request for a midcore. How do I know? Because you're complaining on and on and on and on about nerfing hardcore content instead of asking for new midcore content. Then wondering aloud why people "misunderstand" you and say that you don't want hardcore content nerfed.

Sephirot EX is one of the most difficult EX trials they've released to date. Sephirot Unreal is meant to recreate the difficulty of the original EX trial on release.

Barbariccia EX is the content you want, but you don't like the rewards behind it so instead you're demanding they nerf hardcore content for something you do want. Do you see how this isn't you asking for a midcore, rather it's you demanding hardcore stuff get nerfed because you want a specific reward, and is therefore exactly what hardcore players accuse casuals of constantly demanding?

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Originally Posted by Issaella

No, there should be challenging activities to do in the endgame for a variety of playstyles/skill levels. You know like most other MMOs have? GW2 has multiple tiers of fractals and raids. WoW has multiple tiers of raids and M+ (as much as I hate M+). Endgame=/=max difficulty or nothing. Something the developers in FF14 don't seem to understand.



None of those are challenging activities. Those are casual activities meant to be done by anyone, but then you know that because you are just setting up a straw-man that you can pick apart. Normal Raids and Expert dungeons are not challenging to me in the slightest, I 1-shot them day 1, I'm bored with them after a couple weeks. Conversely Sav/Ex and the new Unreal require me to invest so much energy/effort that is ceases to be a fun challenge to overcome and just turns into how many hours am I willing to get kicked in the you-know-what just to get a stupid piece of gear or a cosmetic. I can do it, at least some of it, it's just not enjoyable, at all. It's either faceroll or meat-grinder, those are the only two options, there is literally no challenging content to do in between. And I just don't really have the energy/tolerance to engage with meat-grinder anymore so I'm left with nothing to do. In the prev patch Unreal filled in that gap, now it's back to auto-piloting Normal/Expert and that, tbh, pisses me off.

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Not to take sides, but looking at the outside looking in, that definitely looks like you are contradicting yourself in the same post.

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Originally Posted by vetch

Different people need different difficulties to have fun. Most people get bored when things are too easy for them, and frustrated when things are too hard.

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This is precisely that point I'm making, so I don't know what your argument is. The is no, what others have called here "mid-core" challenging content like there is in other MMOs. The Normals/Expert is faceroll and boring AF within a couple weeks, conversely everything above that requires so much energy/concentration/tolerance for frustration that it takes a massive effort just to engage with, not to mention the time commitment.

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Originally Posted by vetch

You don't need to understand the appeal of hard content to respect that there's an audience for it. I don't understand the appeal of standing in Limsa posing.

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Where did i say that? What's hard for me is obv faceroll to 90% of the people in this thread. Conversely there are people who only ever do the story dungeons once with a Trust then afk in Limsa. I was just wanting some content that doesn't require my max effort for hours at a time just to clear on a weekly basis.

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Originally Posted by vetch

Or is it the experience of easier fights themselves you want? Because FF14's syncing options offer a very broad spectrum of difficulty for re-playing old content. Regular Sephi EX can often be cleared in one lockout using normal sync with echo, for example.

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There is no reward for doing old content synced that I can't get in 2 minutes in the <lvl70 content or maybe 20 in the harder 70/80 stuff. Why would I do any of those without a reward? I already said the only reason i even engage with the Sav/Ex stuff at all is reward based.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Because you're complaining on and on and on and on about nerfing hardcore content instead of asking for new midcore content. Then wondering aloud why people "misunderstand" you and say that you don't want hardcore content nerfed.

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Because obv they aren't capable of satisfying the desire for midcore content or I wouldn't be complaining. I don't know if it's resources or what, but there is little if anything to do endgame if you don't engage with Sav/Ex in terms of challenging content. All we every get is more and more challenging content that if you can't deal with it the conses is "f*** off or get better, we don't care which". I wouldn't ask for nerfs to existing content just to have something to engage with if they would actually design content I can engage with. Something like CLL/DR/Dal level difficulty without the high end actions that trivialize it would be what I am asking for.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Do you see how this isn't you asking for a midcore, rather it's you demanding hardcore stuff get nerfed because you want a specific reward, and is therefore exactly what hardcore players accuse casuals of constantly demanding?

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I'm not demanding anything. I don't want it nerfed into the ground. I just want to be able to do it in a reasonable time-frame without playing PF failure roulette every week like I could UW pre-6.2. They can obv tune the numbers to make it more forgiving, the Sav people will forget about it just like the Ex as soon as it releases next week anyway.

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Originally Posted by Menriq

Not to take sides, but looking at the outside looking in, that definitely looks like you are contradicting yourself in the same post.

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How? All the things the poster listed are either solo content that doesn't require any kind of mechanical precision or in the case of normal Trials/Dungeons can be done with a party of NPCs. We are talking about variable difficulty in group based content. There is very little to do between faceroll "for everyone" group content and meat-grinder challenging content in this game, UW Unreal was an exception. There is nothing equivalent to LFR/Norm/Hero/Mythic raid tiers in WoW for example. It's just the equivalent of LFR and Mythic level difficulty. And the people who would normally engage with the Normal and then Heroic level in WoW and then maybe step up into Mythic near the end of the tier essentially have no way to advance except throwing themselves at the massive difficulty spike between normal and Savage/Ex.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

I'm not demanding anything. I don't want it nerfed into the ground. I just want to be able to do it in a reasonable time-frame without playing PF failure roulette every week like I could UW pre-6.2. They can obv tune the numbers to make it more forgiving, the Sav people will forget about it just like the Ex as soon as it releases next week anyway.

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And what do you tell the players who wanted to experience Seph Ex as it was when it launched to the best the game can do? Which is where it's at now.

Why does your preference supersede their preference?

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Originally Posted by Issaella

How? All the things the poster listed are either solo content that doesn't require any kind of mechanical precision or in the case of normal Trials/Dungeons can be done with a party of NPCs. We are talking about variable difficulty in group based content. There is very little to do between faceroll "for everyone" group content and meat-grinder challenging content in this game, UW Unreal was an exception. There is nothing equivalent to LFR/Norm/Hero/Mythic raid tiers in WoW for example. It's just the equivalent of LFR and Mythic level difficulty. And the people who would normally engage with the Normal and then Heroic level in WoW and then maybe step up into Mythic near the end of the tier essentially have no way to advance except throwing themselves at the massive difficulty spike between normal and Savage/Ex.

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Its okay you feel like that, but unreal isn't the category for you to take it out on. In fact, you probably would've already cleared if you spent the amount of time you've spent complaining about it in this forum on practicing and studying the fight, perhaps making raiding friends.

But no, instead arguing with people who like the content, and the devs already released, is the method of choice here. For one I hope it stays as is and I'm happy there's challenging things to do in this game. There was midcore content, but it was people whining about how hard it was that got it nerfed. Orbonne, CLL, AV etc....

Everytime SE releases anything midcore people like you flock to the forums to nerf it to the ground. It almost seems as nothing will satisfy people unless its handed to them in a silver platter and SE actually pays them money instead for the priviledge of having these folks play their game.

I did seph ex 70+ times when it was current for the birb mount.

Never. Again.
I'll wait until they do another ex for unreal, I'm skipping this one.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

How? All the things the poster listed are either solo content that doesn't require any kind of mechanical precision or in the case of normal Trials/Dungeons can be done with a party of NPCs. We are talking about variable difficulty in group based content. There is very little to do between faceroll "for everyone" group content and meat-grinder challenging content in this game, UW Unreal was an exception. There is nothing equivalent to LFR/Norm/Hero/Mythic raid tiers in WoW for example. It's just the equivalent of LFR and Mythic level difficulty. And the people who would normally engage with the Normal and then Heroic level in WoW and then maybe step up into Mythic near the end of the tier essentially have no way to advance except throwing themselves at the massive difficulty spike between normal and Savage/Ex.

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Each person's experience is different, but I would imagine there is not a lot of people who weren't doing Savage or EX now suddenly starting to do the harder stuff because of UW Unreal. If anything (even by your OP), the UW Unreal was "faceroll for everyone" in my experience. Based on the previous Unreal fights, they've been consistent in doing their best to not change anything mechanically from when they were originally released, so I'm unsure why there is a need for this one to suddenly be an outlier.

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Originally Posted by Seera1024

And what do you tell the players who wanted to experience Seph Ex as it was when it launched to the best the game can do? Which is where it's at now.

Why does your preference supersede their preference?

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They can do what everyone has been telling me to do - go play it synced, min ilvl. To your second point, because they get Sav/Ex literally every patch that is at that difficulty level and people who don't have the skill/time/patience to do that have gotten nothing since DR/Dal (before the action stacking trivialized it) except UW Unreal.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

How? All the things the poster listed are either solo content that doesn't require any kind of mechanical precision or in the case of normal Trials/Dungeons can be done with a party of NPCs. We are talking about variable difficulty in group based content. There is very little to do between faceroll "for everyone" group content and meat-grinder challenging content in this game, UW Unreal was an exception. There is nothing equivalent to LFR/Norm/Hero/Mythic raid tiers in WoW for example. It's just the equivalent of LFR and Mythic level difficulty. And the people who would normally engage with the Normal and then Heroic level in WoW and then maybe step up into Mythic near the end of the tier essentially have no way to advance except throwing themselves at the massive difficulty spike between normal and Savage/Ex.

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Please explain to us why unreal should be that midcore content.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Please explain to us why unreal should be that midcore content.

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Because it was in the last patch cycle.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

You have Sav, Ultimate, and Ex. Why can't we have 1 piece of content that people can do without hours upon hours of misery?

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We have normal dungeons and normal raids for that. That is your easy content.

Matter of fact you have dozens of dungeons and raids to go do. You also have Island Ultimate, just trying to zone into your island. (but seriously. We have enough easy content. Not everything is supposed to be handed to you on a silver platter.)

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Originally Posted by Issaella

Because it was in the last patch cycle.

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This is very subjective. You might have felt it was midcore, others might have felt it was too hard, whereas others might have felt it was extremely easy. From my perspective, any EX done on tier could be considered midcore, but others might have a different opinion.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

Because it was in the last patch cycle.

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Then you have misunderstood the point of unreal. Unreal is supposed to provide the difficulty very similar to the original release. Ultima extreme was much easier on launch than sephirot extreme. Therefore the same has to be true for ultima unreal and sephirot unreal.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

They can do what everyone has been telling me to do - go play it synced, min ilvl. To your second point, because they get Sav/Ex literally every patch that is at that difficulty level and people who don't have the skill/time/patience to do that have gotten nothing since DR/Dal (before the action stacking trivialized it) except UW Unreal.

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I told you to check out min ilvl no echo (MINE for short) because to me it seems that's the level of challenge you are looking for. This fundamentally does not work for people wanting to experience sephirot extreme like it was back when it released because since HW we have seen massive job changes, massive potency creep and new jobs that are simply not balanced for low level content.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Was a lot harder. A heavy pull in a dungeon required everybody in the party to be good (and for your connection to be stable as a tank/healer) because you needed to rotate cooldowns as a tank or you'd die quickly. The healer needed to be on the ball with healing or the tank would die quickly. DPS would need to burn the mobs down quickly or the tank would die quickly. Keep in mind that it was easy to run out of MP and TP back in those days too, so deaths were painful, and it was very common to wipe to heavy pulls (Neverreap was pure evil for this).

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There are only two things that made large pulls more difficult back then. Neither of which you have listed here. The first is Cleric Stance when it swapped a healers MND and INT stats. The second is tanks lost enmity far easier than today, and this is related to a stance dance as well.

These two aspects to FFXIV early on made things more difficult in the same way that rocks were more difficult to transport before the invention of the wheel barrel.

Other than that, large pulls in dungeons are as dangerous now as they were then. A slip up from anyone tends to lead to a wipe.

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Originally Posted by Menriq

This is very subjective. You might have felt it was midcore, others might have felt it was too hard, whereas others might have felt it was extremely easy. From my perspective, any EX done on tier could be considered midcore, but others might have a different opinion.

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And that fine, but at least it was something in between Normals/Expert and Sav/Ex. Now there is nothing just like all the patches since they nerfed/trivialized DR/Dal. From what others have been telling me (I haven't done it) that Ex4 is about as middle-of-the-road in terms of difficulty as it gets and much easier than Seph Unreal (which makes no sense to me when it doesn't reward character power progression and Ex4 does). I just don't like any of the gear skins out of it.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

This is precisely that point I'm making, so I don't know what your argument is. The is no, what others have called here "mid-core" challenging content like there is in other MMOs. The Normals/Expert is faceroll and boring AF within a couple weeks, conversely everything above that requires so much energy/concentration/tolerance for frustration that it takes a massive effort just to engage with, not to mention the time commitment.

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And you are trying to solve that problem by arguing that content be taken away from people who also have very little allotted to them, which is why your opinion is being disrespected constantly. There's nothing inherently wrong with your position of wanting mid-core gameplay; your conduct is just atrocious. If you had argued that perhaps there could be one fewer piece of hyper-casual content per patch cycle to allow mid-core players some development time you'd probably have 13 pages of people agreeing with you. Instead you're eyeing the few table scraps hardcore players have left and acting shocked when they get defensive.

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I'm not demanding anything. I don't want it nerfed into the ground. I just want to be able to do it in a reasonable time-frame without playing PF failure roulette every week like I could UW pre-6.2. They can obv tune the numbers to make it more forgiving, the Sav people will forget about it just like the Ex as soon as it releases next week anyway.

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Case in point. Intermediate skill players cannot do Hard-difficulty content in a time frame you call "reasonable" without it being eased up so far that it's no longer fun for Hard-level players, which may as well be 'nerfed into the ground'. You are asking for the hardest Unreal to be eased to the level of one of the easiest, which would effectively take Unreals away from players with more skill than you, and your newest argument for why that should be done is... an unsupported prediction that the first-wave Savage raiders will lose interest by next week (ignoring all the Savage-level players who don't have statics or didn't have time to play this week or have more attention span than a gnat). Atrocious behavior.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

And that fine, but at least it was something in between Normals/Expert and Sav/Ex. Now there is nothing just like all the patches since they nerfed/trivialized DR/Dal. From what others have been telling me (I haven't done it) that Ex4 is about as middle-of-the-road in terms of difficulty as it gets and much easier than Seph Unreal (which makes no sense to me when it doesn't reward character power progression and Ex4 does). I just don't like any of the gear skins out of it.

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So why are you trying to argue for something to be nerfed when it goes against the purpose of that something? Especially when that something's difficulty is something that is a difficulty level that is in the minority of the game?

You're effort would be better spent getting SE to actually release more content at the difficulty level that you want. Then more people are happy.

Why was is fine for UW Unreal to be midcore last patch so I at least had something to do that didn't fry my brain every week? And all the hardcore players weren't screaming for buffs while they did their Sav/Ult? But when I ask for the current Unreal to at least return to the same ballpark difficulty I'm trying to take something away from them when I now have nothing challenging to do that doesn't leave me feeling frustrated/angry every week. Whereas last patch I could at least enjoy my weekly Unreal clears and acquire some mounts/minions/cosmetics at a relatively slow pace.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

Why was is fine for UW Unreal to be midcore last patch so I at least had something to do that didn't fry my brain every week? And all the hardcore players weren't screaming for buffs while they did their Sav/Ult? But when I ask for the current Unreal to at least return to the same ballpark difficulty I'm trying to take something away from them when I now have nothing challenging to do that doesn't leave me feeling frustrated/angry every week. Whereas last patch I could at least enjoy my weekly Unreal clears and acquire some mounts/minions/cosmetics at a relatively slow pace.

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Again, unreal's purpose is not to be midcore. Unreal's purpose is to recreate the level of difficult that specific extreme fight had on release. Not every extreme fight over the years had the same level of difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

None of those are challenging activities. Those are casual activities meant to be done by anyone, but then you know that because you are just setting up a straw-man that you can pick apart. Normal Raids and Expert dungeons are not challenging to me in the slightest, I 1-shot them day 1, I'm bored with them after a couple weeks.

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Sorry but you're not setting up a good comparison, cause tbh Ultima Unreal was way easier than the current normal raids even. Never seen any prog for it, first pull you cleared with 0 prior knowledge, and only wipes ever were from people derping really hard, cause even with half of the people dead half of the time you'd still clear.
Normals raids see way more wipes tbh, they might not have enrage but people wipe to them all the time, and have way more mechanics than Ultima Unreal did.
So while I understand the want for midcore content (besides, aren't ex midcore? cause if those are hardcore than what are savage and ultimate? crazycore?), asking for ultima unreal level of content is not that, it's asking for more normal content.

Also, ever heard of deep dungeons? Or are those either too hard or too easy for you? Hell, even going to bozja and doing CE is more challenging than UU.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

Why was is fine for UW Unreal to be midcore last patch so I at least had something to do that didn't fry my brain every week? And all the hardcore players weren't screaming for buffs while they did their Sav/Ult? But when I ask for the current Unreal to at least return to the same ballpark difficulty I'm trying to take something away from them when I now have nothing challenging to do that doesn't leave me feeling frustrated/angry every week. Whereas last patch I could at least enjoy my weekly Unreal clears and acquire some mounts/minions/cosmetics at a relatively slow pace.

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Because, as you said yourself, they perceive you as wanting to take it away. Is it that hard to understand that, once given a toy, people don't want it taken away while they're playing with it?

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Originally Posted by Issaella

Why was is fine for UW Unreal to be midcore last patch so I at least had something to do that didn't fry my brain every week? And all the hardcore players weren't screaming for buffs while they did their Sav/Ult? But when I ask for the current Unreal to at least return to the same ballpark difficulty I'm trying to take something away from them when I now have nothing challenging to do that doesn't leave me feeling frustrated/angry every week. Whereas last patch I could at least enjoy my weekly Unreal clears and acquire some mounts/minions/cosmetics at a relatively slow pace.

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Because those who want that difficulty level of content realize that that's not Unreal's purpose.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

From what others have been telling me (I haven't done it) that Ex4 is about as middle-of-the-road in terms of difficulty as it gets and much easier than Seph Unreal (which makes no sense to me when it doesn't reward character power progression and Ex4 does). I just don't like any of the gear skins out of it.

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So you haven't even done the easy extreme content that you are asking for but want other content to be nerfed so you can have more?

Can we just let this thread die, it’s obvious the OP is not interested in any of the literal hundreds of arguments we have provided as to why there is nothing wrong with unreal they just have the wrong idea of what unreal is

1) we all want more midcore content (even though it always ends up getting nerfed)
2) unreal is not midcore content
3) just because ultima was easy doesn’t mean all unreals should be or will be
4) MINE or EX4 are options but OP doesn’t want to do stuff that gives them things they don’t like

That could condense the thread down to its constituent parts, can we just leave it there