i'm sick and tired of the excuse for not having unique or varied jobs

I would love to see a HW classic server just to see people's thoughts on pre 4.0 battle system and Job design.

I would pay double my sub (so pretty much a FFXI sub) just to see what 3.X combat is like. With how many players that talk about HW so fondly, it only has me curious.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Going through these as I have labelled them, the bold seems you just have an issue with role actions, not the job identities themselves.
For Brotherhood, considering what you quoted was about mitigation, Brotherhood has no mitigation properties.
Now, the italics. Every job has some form of raid dps increase, except the selfish DPS, those are just raid damage increases in disguise. I hope you realise that, with an argument like that, it doesn't matter how you swing it, you won't be happy.



And this is why, if you give one job something the others do not have, that job then becomes required. To get around this, you give all the necessary jobs this thing, just giving them a unique twist for the job. Suddenly, you have a job identity that doesn't exclude a job.



You don't minimise META by making everything unique, that just creates a stronger META where jobs will be more favourable for certain fights. Whilst I know this is what some people want, that is not SE mindset when balancing jobs.

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i don't think you read my entire argument correctly at all

Pretty much just two core ways a class/job can be designed in this game. Fixed rotation or rng rotation.

RDM and Dancer are the only two jobs we have which leans into rng rotation, rdm more-so since it's rng affects the frequency of their burst phase.

To diversify the jobs just a bit they could simply change the charge bars of various jobs to not give a consistent increase every usage. Like something that charges 5 on use will now charge 4-7 instead or 10 on crit, and so on.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

I would love to see a HW classic server just to see people's thoughts on pre 4.0 battle system and Job design.

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I'd pay for that happily.

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

i don't think you read my entire argument correctly at all

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You don't care about balance, just something unique the job brings. The example you gave for Reaper was everyone being able to use the teleport hole, however, how would that work? Are you going to have everyone have a separate action in order to use it? What if multiple jobs have similar things, did you want a unique action for all of them as well? Probably not, so, say, combine them into one action, which then comes with the problem of, if multiple ones come at once, which one will activate? This hasn't even considered the possibility of multiple Reapers. You could in theory have the reaper pull everyone to that spot, but I shouldn't have to explain how that is a bad idea.

So, what unique things could there be for other jobs? You could have an action that generates a resource, like MP, but, how do you balance usage? If you balance around having this MP battery, if you suddenly don't have this MP battery, you get screwed over, if you balance around not having this MP battery, then what is the point?

You could say it generates the job specific gauge, but again, how does that work, add 10 gauge? So Warrior can get off more Fell Cleaves, but Monk doesn't work like that, so you can say it adds 1 Chakra, but Monk isn't designed to generate Chakra that quickly, unless Brotherhood is up, at which point the resource gen is essentially pointless, but then there is WHM where the resource generation is based off of time, what is it going to do then, take away some cooldown time? How about jobs with 2 gauges? Would you fill up both gauges with Reaper or just the Soul Gauge? How about Red Mage? The only way to be fair there would be both. Do you see how much of a mess this has become?

If you have other suggestions, I am all ears.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

.So, what unique things could there be for other jobs? You could have an action that generates a resource, like MP, but, how do you balance usage? If you balance around having this MP battery, if you suddenly don't have this MP battery, you get screwed over, if you balance around not having this MP battery, then what is the point?

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Easy allow it to change jobs in some way.. if a job had an ability that granted MP refresh to the party for example while it may bot be mandatory for the party to fu cation you could allow it to change up other jobs..

That MP refresh might allow a black mage to extend there astral fire phase and squeeze out more oomph for example. Or allow a paladin to bomb out more holy spirits in its magic phase.or a drk to do whateverver they do with there mp. (Not levelled it but think there mp is something to do with there dps.) While all 3 jobs would still function perfectly fine without it. It would spice things up a bit more than just a here's a 5% damage buff.

The reason everything feels the same is because nothing ever changes... you can take any composition of 8. Switch around any number of them and the party will still function the exact same way..

Old Ast and its ewer card would have been much better if it did this. What made it crap was it had no effect on any job that could use it. So it was just royal road fodder same as spire.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Pretty much just two core ways a class/job can be designed in this game. Fixed rotation or rng rotation.

RDM and Dancer are the only two jobs we have which leans into rng rotation, rdm more-so since it's rng affects the frequency of their burst phase.

To diversify the jobs just a bit they could simply change the charge bars of various jobs to not give a consistent increase every usage. Like something that charges 5 on use will now charge 4-7 instead or 10 on crit, and so on.

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You have no clue how RDM plays if this is your take. The "procs" are such low priority. I have been using pretty much every melee on the exact same GCD across hundreds of pulls in savage. Despite appearances, it is a very static job.

We've actually had those variable gauges. Like SAM getting more Kenki on successful positionals. And you guessed it right - it was deemed too punishing and removed.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

You have no clue how RDM plays if this is your take. The "procs" are such low priority. I have been using pretty much every melee on the exact same GCD across hundreds of pulls in savage. Despite appearances, it is a very static job.

We've actually had those variable gauges. Like SAM getting more Kenki on successful positionals. And you guessed it right - it was deemed too punishing and removed.

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Because when devs make job mechanics that reward players for doing things they should normally be doing anyway the players not doing so start complaining that they're being "punished" for being bad at the game...

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Easy allow it to change jobs in some way.. if a job had an ability that granted MP refresh to the party for example while it may bot be mandatory for the party to fu cation you could allow it to change up other jobs..

That MP refresh might allow a black mage to extend there astral fire phase and squeeze out more oomph for example. Or allow a paladin to bomb out more holy spirits in its magic phase.or a drk to do whateverver they do with there mp. (Not levelled it but think there mp is something to do with there dps.) While all 3 jobs would still function perfectly fine without it. It would spice things up a bit more than just a here's a 5% damage buff.

The reason everything feels the same is because nothing ever changes... you can take any composition of 8. Switch around any number of them and the party will still function the exact same way..

Old Ast and its ewer card would have been much better if it did this. What made it crap was it had no effect on any job that could use it. So it was just royal road fodder same as spire.

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Unless you want to change how jobs have functioned, as it stands right now, it will have no effect on BLM. AF prevents MP regen, which I believe also included outside MP regen sources. If we assume it did, it would need to regen at least 1600 MP for an additional cast of Fire 1, maybe a Fire 4 (It won't be Paradox as you don't have the Paradox stack). Would this be a DPS increase? In a vacuum, yes, however, it requires your MP battery to be alert in knowing where you are in your rotation. It's a waste if it is in UI after all and if you use it too late in AF, it would essentially be wasted as it won't increase your MP enough by the time you need it.

This then comes onto the point of, this would essentially be something that requires voice comms to align properly in order to get maximum usage. So, the question here is, should the use of comms allow you to have this advantage? I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here.

As for PLD, if you add in an extra Holy Spirit, you then delay Blade of Valor, which would be a DPS loss and you further push PLD outside of the ideal 60 second rotation time (whether that is something you want to keep considering, I do not know, however for max DPS in aligning raid buffs, PLD already drops 1 Atonement to better align at 60 seconds).

As for DRK, it has never, in any iteration allowed any MP gain effect from any job other than itself to affect it. MP on a DRK is effectively a gauge on other jobs, like Kenki or Ninki. Currently it's only use is to use Flood/Edge of Shadow to keep Darkside up and it is used on the Blackest Night for mitigation. In this case, you would need to restore 3000 MP to get an extra cast of any of their MP abilities, which is an even steeper price than BLM for less potency per MP.

If we now assume it is a DPS gain for all the above jobs, then you create a situation where, if you want to bring this job, you have to bring this other one, and this one, and that one so that you can benefit the most out of the buff. If you then create different scenarios for unique things a job can bring to a fight, you then have to weigh up each possibility chances are, you will have a comp that far outdoes any other, which then makes fights alot easier. This sort of thing was seen back in HW with the piercing Meta, Dragoon + MCH + BRD was really powerful, so strong infact they traded away the caster for it. SB then went the other way and made BRD/MCH weaker with the only reason to being them being, they were MP/TP batteries. Which was then really annoying, especially as a MNK when you run out of TP, despite optimum invigorate usage just because you either didn't have the TP battery, or they just didn't use it.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

It would lead to more pronounced metas for sure but saying it leads to more class complaints is potentially missleading. It would lead to more complaints from people that care a lot about job balance but probably less from people who would readily sacrifice job balance for uniqueness.

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Yet unique classes doesn't mean they'll be good or fun. Unless I've missed some posts it seems as though most folks thinks it will all just be fine n dandy so long as everything is unique. That's far from true. All classes could be unique and they all could be terrible whether thats due to garbage damage or a mytiad or reasons. I'll take what is called a homogenized class that's still loads of fun (imo ofc) over a unique class that isn't. Blm currently is a class I see as very unique but its not fun by any means.

Idk maybe im just weird lol unique has ever equaled fun or better to me

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

I would pay double my sub (so pretty much a FFXI sub) just to see what 3.X combat is like. With how many players that talk about HW so fondly, it only has me curious.

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They mostly refer to the story, not about the jobs.

Someone brushed upon that in a twitter post for some humor: https://twitter.com/mane_tank/status...76988936966145

And yes, it was bad as it is told there. And more.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

They mostly refer to the story, not about the jobs.

Someone brushed upon that in a twitter post for some humor: https://twitter.com/mane_tank/status...76988936966145

And yes, it was bad as it is told there. And more.

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Hey I just saw that xD

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Originally Posted by Arrius

They mostly refer to the story, not about the jobs.

Someone brushed upon that in a twitter post for some humor: https://twitter.com/mane_tank/status...76988936966145

And yes, it was bad as it is told there. And more.

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To be frank Twitter memes are not going to dissuade me of my curiosity, I am well aware of the jank. I would still pay money for hypothetical 3.X servers knowing full well there were clunkier and objectively terrible systems back then.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

I'd counter that by askeing what game are they playing if they think jobs play differently..

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I'd note that ANYthing, if broken down to a fundamental level is the same.

"Every Job in WoW plays the same! I press one button to do damage and another button to do damage in a different way!"

"Every FPS is the same! You point at enemies and press the shoot button!"

"Every language is the same! There are nouns, verbs, adverbs, and adjectives, and you arrange them into sentences!"

There's a point where you can distill any category of things to where they're all "the same" from a far enough zoomed out viewpoint. On some level, we could argue that a Dungeons and Dragons Warrior is "the same" as a Dungeons and Dragons Cleric...but are they really?

PLD has a 1-2-3 combo alternated with a 1-2-4 combo with a 5-5-5 singer on the end, and you use a separate button to buff those forms of physical damage, and every other set of those, you activate a buff to magical damage, then follow with a 6-6-6-6, 7-7-7-7 combo of magical free movement.

WAR has a 1-2-3 combo and a 1-2-4 combo you use about once every 30 seconds. Every few combos, you dump gauge on a 5. You have a 1 min CD button you press that lets you spam 5 3 times and lets you use 6, a powerful gap closer strike. You have a CD to hit that morphs 5 into another ability that you can then immediately use.

There's no world where those two are "the same". They both function differently. The closest argument you can make is Inner Release KINDA works like Requiescat, except you get far less Fell Cleaves, there's no follow-op finisher, and Fell Cleave is not a ranged ability.

Again, "Every language is the same! There are nouns, verbs, adverbs, and adjectives, and you arrange them into sentences!" is superficially true, but not true to any serious person.

PLD and WAR play distinctly/differently. Contrast their opener, their general gameplay flow, their ranged options, and even their number of hotbar buttons used to execute all this and they just aren't the same at all. The general flow of WAR's rotation is 1-2-3 pretty static with the rare 1-2-4 while PLD alternates 1-2-3 and 1-2-4-5-5-5 as its core rotation. PLD's caster phase is only "the same" as WAR's on the most superficial level possible, and has twice as many buttons and 8/3rds as many attacks (8/7ths if dumping Infuriate and capped on Beast Gauge).

And note this is JUST talking about their damage kits.

EDIT:

Likewise, the healers aren't the same. Their damage kits aren't even the same, though their core (2 buttons) is largely the same. Their healing kits are distinct and feel different to play on and use, and their damage kits are varied, even if not by a ton. SCH has Energy Drain and Ruin 2 as a movement tool. WHM has Misery and Lily use as a movement tool that heals instead of dealing damage (being refunded on the back end). SGE has a damage positive GCD attack that requires melee range and a ranged GCD cast that also does an AOE heal. AST I really don't play, but it's still distinct from the rest. And those abilities aren't exactly infrequent, either. And note I'm JUST talking GCDs here, not oGCDs.

And DPS Jobs, that is, ACTUAL, red icon, DPS Jobs, are more diverse still. BLM, SMN, and RDM play nothing like each other. MNK, DRG, NIN, and SAM (and RPR) play nothing like each other. BRD, MCH, and DNC play nothing like each other.

.

ALL.
THAT.
SAID:

I very much WOULD like to see more diversity. But there's no reason to ignore where we already have it.

BLM, SMN, and RDM all play very distinct, for example.

PLD, WAR, DRK, and GNB play very distinct - I started a thread in the Tank forum section asking people to say what they like about each and why, and if you read it, you'll see people going on and on about which ones they like (and which they don't like/hate), and why. You'll see conflicts (one person say they love WAR because it's simple and hate PLD because of the cursed opener followed by someone saying they love PLD with its cursed opener because they can optimize and feel rewarded playing it while they find WAR bland and boring), but no one really saying they're "all the same".

.

There's a way to make a case that isn't resorting to hyperbole. When you resort to hyperbole, it diminishes your argument. Especially when people are legitimately making the case for more diversity between Jobs within a role. There's no need to come along and say "Yeah, like how PLD and WAR are identical Jobs" when that's (a) objectively false and (b) people are already making the general argument that more diversity is good.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

They mostly refer to the story, not about the jobs.

Someone brushed upon that in a twitter post for some humor: https://twitter.com/mane_tank/status...76988936966145

And yes, it was bad as it is told there. And more.

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Basically this.

There is an absolute truth to "rose tinted goggles".

Back in HW, people complained endlessly about the very things people now want back. I've said this before and I'm sure I'll say it again: Most of the simplification and homogenization we've gotten was due to the Devs listening to players asking for it, either implicitly as the natural result of things they asked for, or explicitly, with the players outright asking for it directly.

Everything people now complain about having lost was lost because people at the time complained about it existing to various degrees, or wanting it changed in some ways that necessitated the overall result.

I play my Monk when I'm in the mood for fisting. I'll play my Dragoon if I'm in the mood to handle a pole. I'll play WAR if I just wanna smash. I'll play a Bard if I wanna work on my fingering but also not in the mood to get attached and keep them at Arm's Length.

There is something for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

They mostly refer to the story, not about the jobs.

Someone brushed upon that in a twitter post for some humor: https://twitter.com/mane_tank/status...76988936966145

And yes, it was bad as it is told there. And more.

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Nah I loved and still miss Heavensward's "clunky" jobs. Get the hell out with that noise.

I'll take all the old tank and healer jank over the atrocious design they have right now. Also current state of SMN is the most boring experience I ever had in an online game since 2004.

Current job design is 90% pure shite in PvE.

Most of the stuff I miss from HW are the "little things."

With DRK as an example, I miss the parry/reprisal mechanic, miss Sole Survivor, how Abyssal Drain used to work... Hell, I really liked the fact that Darkside was a stance which drained your MP. It wasn't hard to manage, but it was a flavorful inconvenience. Wasn't really a huge thing either, but it helped, along with other things, to give DRK that sense of identity.

The only issue I had with HW in terms of Job design was

1) Bowmage/Gunmage and their reliance on DRG for Piercing debuff.
2) MP issues with WHMM
3) TP issues with MNK
4) No magic block PLD

Still beats brain dead healers, that's for sure.

There are two things that will go about this way.

1. There will be the hardcore players that will ONLY go for the meta, thus killing the feel of uniqueness and ultimately wasting developers time in making things that are never used because they are not the meta.
2. There will be more players that will play the worst possible builds due to being unique and we are already suffering with players still fishing for Freecure at lvl80+ content, Tanks not popping their mitigations and baby pulling and many other issues.

And you want to make the game even more complex for what? Having that fake feeling you are making a unique build while at the end of the day you are either making a meta build that some hardcore mathematicians posted their perfectly calculated meta builds on the internet so that everyone can copy from or just becoming deadweight?

I mean... Mechanist is pretty unique and fun.

Just saying.

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Originally Posted by OM3GA-Z3RO

1. There will be the hardcore players that will ONLY go for the meta, thus killing the feel of uniqueness and ultimately wasting developers in making things that are never used because they are not the meta.
2. There will be more players that will play the worst possible builds due to being unique and we are already suffering with players still fishing for Freecure at lvl80+ content, Tanks not popping their mitigations and baby pulling and many other issues.

And you want to make the game even more complex for what? Having that fake feeling you are making a unique build while at the end of the day you are either making a meta build that everyone follows or just becoming deadweight?

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I don't give a shit about meta if it ruins fun. If I wanted to play rock paper scissors or chess, I'd fucking play rock paper scissors or chess.

I played Machinist during Stormblood when Bard was the meta pick.
I played Golden Gun every now and then during Stasis Shatterdive meta in Splicer Trials.
I play Disc Priest right now in SL Season 3, switching to Holy for some specific weeks, just because I find Disc Priest more fun.
I played right click carry Pudge during WC3 Dota with a battlefury.
I played Riven mid a bunch of times just because I like Riven.
I played Ling/Bane Muta on and off at a time when Hydra was the most broken unit in LOTV.

Chasing the meta will be fun for people for sure, but even if i want to min/max, there are still times where I want to play the most off meta shit possible just for fun. Hell even pro players do it to shake it up because playing meta and ONLY meta is just boring and stale as fuck. There will always be a best class, a best playstyle, a best anything, so why should the devs sabotage fun by literally eliminating those options and homogenizing everything so people will have no choice but to be forced to ONLY PLAY THIS WAY.

And even then, meta and balance doesn't affect the MAJORITY of players in this game. Like sure, fix glaring issues with the class like idk NIN dealing as much damage as a SCH (easily fixed by potency changes), but don't remove a core mechanic from the job (Kaiten, Brd DoTs with Songs) just because it wasn't picked by a Week 1 group. Chances are, balance is never gonna affect you in FF14 at all.

I'm all about self improvement and stuff but both this mindset of OMG MY CLASS ONLY DEALS 2% LESS DAMAGE THAN THE OTHER GUY PLEASE FIX when you can clearly clear the content with subpar comps (even way back in Stormblood) and "omg I have too many buttons please remove them so I can feel better with not pressing them" ruins the fun in video games. Video games should be fun first and foremost and balance and meta should come second to fun.

That's true. If Meta was King then everyone would have been Warrior.

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Originally Posted by OM3GA-Z3RO

There are two things that will go about this way.

1. There will be the hardcore players that will ONLY go for the meta, thus killing the feel of uniqueness and ultimately wasting developers time in making things that are never used because they are not the meta.
2. There will be more players that will play the worst possible builds due to being unique and we are already suffering with players still fishing for Freecure at lvl80+ content, Tanks not popping their mitigations and baby pulling and many other issues.

And you want to make the game even more complex for what? Having that fake feeling you are making a unique build while at the end of the day you are either making a meta build that some hardcore mathematicians posted their perfectly calculated meta builds on the internet so that everyone can copy from or just becoming deadweight?

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1. Okay, cool, who cares? Meta only applies for blind prog and the first weeks of content. If something is underperforming to the point it isn't viable, then they can adjust it.
2. Okay, who cares? Are those players having fun playing something that's the worst? Then let them have fun. You cannot and should not ever design anything around the lowest common denominator, because you will quickly learn that players will out-stupid your stupid-proof design. Outside of taking away everything except 1 button, you cannot ever make players play correctly or well if they do not want to. If they are performing to the point where they can't clear, kick them and get a replacement or leave the group and find another.

You know, when you're sick and tired, you're supposed to go see the doctor :/

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Meta only applies for blind prog and the first weeks of content.

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I don't know where you got that idea. "Meta" applies to every single instance and if you don't follow it, you're not playing the game right. I've read enough forum posts over the last 7+ years to understand that message. And not in just this game.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

I don't know where you got that idea. "Meta" applies to every single instance and if you don't follow it, you're not playing the game right. I've read enough forum posts over the last 7+ years to understand that message. And not in just this game.

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hmm yes thats why PLD still had the most logs done on launch despite being the worst non healer DPS in the game right? asking for people to use 2 braincells and learn the game to the bare minimum of it's systems, combat, jobs, etc... is not wanting people to play "meta" thats wanting people to play the game properly like any other god damn game would ask of it's players.

do you think hades or it's general players cares if one weapon is vastly superior for speedruns/speed clears? no cause they all know the basics of the game and can clear the game with whatever weapon they want cause they have the basics of the weapon the combat and systems down. meaning even with the "worst" weapon you can still clear the game in a reasonable timeframe. stop trying to twist what other games would ask of their players as "meta"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

I don't know where you got that idea. "Meta" applies to every single instance and if you don't follow it, you're not playing the game right. I've read enough forum posts over the last 7+ years to understand that message. And not in just this game.

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lmao so true

Only unique job is Blue Mage because its not a basic betch Raid job.

Give me Gambler with skills tied to MGP purchases.
Puppetmaster with parts got from lifeskilling recipes to build the different parts of the puppet.
Beast Master with skills tied to old beast tribe currencies.
Mammeteer using the Vermillion skills as a group of pets for DPS...

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Originally Posted by pikalovr

snip

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You respond as if you have never spent a minute browsing information on Icy-Veins or The Balance websites.

And yes, there are players in dungeon instances who have expressed extreme displeasure of players in non-endgame instances for not conforming to the current Meta. On these very Forums.

Then again, you may be excused as a relative newcomer based on Forum join date. You missed most of the not-very-fun threads during Heavensward, for example.

I’d rather take discrepancies between jobs’ numbers on release, given that every job has a unique and fun playstyle, and subsequent number adjustments to make things more balanced in the immediate patches. And I mean immediate as in x.01, not x.1 like they love to put it off until. It might also help if they contacted more people to test the jobs’ early media tour builds and give feedback on them, if they were to grace the popular raid streamers in the community with any sort of recognition for example.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

You respond as if you have never spent a minute browsing information on Icy-Veins or The Balance websites.

And yes, there are players in dungeon instances who have expressed extreme displeasure of players in non-endgame instances for not conforming to the current Meta. On these very Forums.

Then again, you may be excused as a relative newcomer based on Forum join date. You missed most of the not-very-fun threads during Heavensward, for example.

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if they had to deal with half the stuff we do today i wouldn't blame them. we can't even trust the general player base to just bait a god damn cleave in P3s literally stand in one consistent spot for a mechanic we can't even trust them to do that. there's a reason why JP players can literally hop in DF and clear an entire tier regardless of what day or how long it's been pop a macro for strats up everyone undestands and you pull. we still have people who can't even do something as simple adjusting from left to right nado. so yes if they had to deal with stuff liek this, good they had every god damn right to want people to play better. and there was more at play than just people wanting meta you also had poorly tuned systems like striking piercing slashing which is also getting ignored in your point

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Originally Posted by anhaato

I’d rather take discrepancies between jobs’ numbers on release, given that every job has a unique and fun playstyle, and subsequent number adjustments to make things more balanced in the immediate patches. And I mean immediate as in x.01, not x.1 like they love to put it off until. It might also help if they contacted more people to test the jobs’ early media tour builds and give feedback on them, if they were to grace the popular raid streamers in the community with any sort of recognition for example.

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nah MMO devs don't use an actual logical balancing system even GW2 is in alot of hot water rn for having a leak basically confirming their head of balancing was biased when doing changes

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Originally Posted by pikalovr

cleave in P3s

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See, I knew you wouldn't get it.

You're talking Savage.

I was talking specifically about 'dungeon instances' and the required Meta. End-game raiders always appear to forget that what they desire in play runs downhill into what they require from players who will never touch Savage in their lifetimes. One can read it in their attitudes, despite their claims (when called out) of "I was never talking about regular dungeons", when players who are religious in their devotion to the current meta most certainly are talking about them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

See, I knew you wouldn't get it.

You're talking Savage.

I was talking specifically about 'dungeon instances' and the required Meta. End-game raiders always appear to forget that what they desire in play runs downhill into what they require from players who will never touch Savage in their lifetimes. One can read it in their attitudes, despite their claims (when called out) of "I was never talking about regular dungeons", when players who are religious in their devotion to the current meta most certainly are talking about them.

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right back at you bud there's a reason i brought up a basic simplistic mechanic in the HARDEST content in the game not being able to be done or trusted to be done by players if we're having issues like this in the HARDEST difficulty how do you think players feel in dungeons or midcore content? why do you think people today are so frustrated with cure 1 healers or ice mages or single pull tanks etc... especially at high level?

if you actually understand the issue i was bringing up you'd understand why i'd pat them on the back for holding their ground and wanting people to get better even if it meant playing "meta". which once again you completely ignored the other forces at play here like the damage typing system and even before then the crossclass system both of which was implemented extremely poorly. it's thanks to those players not getting better that we end up where we are now healers basically not being needed outside of savages and even needing two there is debatable. dungeons becoming stale and boring cause why bother running a dudgeon with actual thought and good combat encounters when nobody wants to do anything? it's why jobs get more and more lobotomized as expansions go on etc...

so yes my point still stands and is valid if they had to go through half the stuff we do today i wouldn't blame them and i'd pat them on the back for holding the line in trying to stop this game from what we unfortunately see today.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

You respond as if you have never spent a minute browsing information on Icy-Veins or The Balance websites.

And yes, there are players in dungeon instances who have expressed extreme displeasure of players in non-endgame instances for not conforming to the current Meta. On these very Forums.

Then again, you may be excused as a relative newcomer based on Forum join date. You missed most of the not-very-fun threads during Heavensward, for example.

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Explain how it affects Leveling dungeons, Expert dungeons, 24 man raids, Normal raids, Treasure Map parties, and Hunts.

You need to get off the forums and just play the game.

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Originally Posted by pikalovr

nah MMO devs don't use an actual logical balancing system even GW2 is in alot of hot water rn for having a leak basically confirming their head of balancing was biased when doing changes

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GW2 has always been poorly balanced, it has been one of the most off-putting things to me.
FFXIV all things considered has a history of being very well-balanced numerically so you can at least play what you want and not feel bad about it.

That said I do think there is a problem sometimes in FFXIV of higher skill not being rewarded.
I know the devs have said that they don't think a Job being more difficult to play should translate to higher dmg output but I just fundamentally disagree with that.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

See, I knew you wouldn't get it.

You're talking Savage.

I was talking specifically about 'dungeon instances' and the required Meta. End-game raiders always appear to forget that what they desire in play runs downhill into what they require from players who will never touch Savage in their lifetimes. One can read it in their attitudes, despite their claims (when called out) of "I was never talking about regular dungeons", when players who are religious in their devotion to the current meta most certainly are talking about them.

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Meta in dungeons lol?
Tbh I'd rather not Jobs be balanced around dungeons or other such content, it's already so easy you can play however you want still succeed.

The furthest I ever see people take it in dungeons is '' wall to wall pulls and use AoE '' that's about it.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

I mean... Mechanist is pretty unique and fun.

Just saying.

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I think a lot of people will look at MNK and think that it's '' just like the other melee'' but it's not at all if you actually know how to play it properly with Optimal Drift.
Advanced BLM gets pretty crazy too, there's definitely a lot of fun and unique optimization floating about, I'd say DRG is fairly unique too with their Life of the Dragon delay and being so ogcd heavy.

I definitely don't think the DPS Jobs are as homogenized as people say, on some level especially a surface level I'd agree tho in the sense that they revolve around the dreaded burst window.
But I definitely think that they all feel unique and very different to play.

Now uh... Healers are a different matter entirely lol.
And I think Tanks could have more unique defensive kits.