[Petition] Have Naoki Yoshida Play Healer and take off the DPS Gloves for a year.

Quick question : If i see a bad NIN or DRG - people tell them to learn get better etc. but healers are different ? Why cant we tell "hey guys please read your tooltips and get better"? No for healers it has be the "crayon eating boring to death" solution ? I suggest make SAM, NIN, DRG and BLM like healers. What this not fun and a poo poo solution?`Weird beacuse you told me that healing needs to be that way but telling you "lets change your job the same way" is bad - ahh ok, i see now. -,-

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

I sure as hell don't. That crap was a nightmare when your Healer forgot to swap back and then the party died.

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You mean just like a tank who pops no cd or a dps lower than a healer ? Can't blame stances being bad due to players being bad. Thing is, it's hard to distinguish a bad healer now, there's not much to fail.

Omg, please make this one happen. I haven't had any fun with healers since stormblood. I'm all for healers getting a more engaged dps rotation or dps support kits. No joke healing has become nothing but using random healing cooldowns for the sake of breaking the monotonous 1 button rotation. It really doesn't have to be hard. Just way less drooling on yourself when you play the game please.

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Originally Posted by Teno

You mean just like a tank who pops no cd or a dps lower than a healer ? Can't blame stances being bad due to players being bad. Thing is, it's hard to distinguish a bad healer now, there's not much to fail.

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Its just as easy as ever
They aren't casting glare/broil/malefic/dosis, they are spamming their basic heals, running out of mp instead of using lucid etc

even though the skill depth is puddle deep, idiots will still drown in it because nothing is idiot proof

He absolutely should. Maybe he'll stop his smug attitude and gets to see what healers have been putting up with for years.

Used to respect this man alot in the past but lately all he does is just brush aside players feedback. I wonder if he's proud of this game losing an extensive amount of abilities HIS unit created.
I'm going to say respect to you healers for putting up with this because me as a tank, having lost enmity and other tools in ShB was enough for me to abandon my passion with this game.

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Originally Posted by Shin96

I'm going to say respect to you healers for putting up with this because me as a tank, having lost enmity and other tools in ShB was enough for me to abandon my passion with this game.

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Most healers have changed to dps (the only role that got good treatment, at least until 6.1) or left the game. More would leave but there's just nowhere to go atm since the mmo market is in such a bad state.

The healer exodus was in 5.0. A lot of healers have not returned in 6.0 because its unchanged from 5.0. The only difference is there's a few more dps players than usual that play sage for fast queues. No healer worth their masses of salt was fooled by sage.
Thats why SE is getting no points for the whm buffs to a lot of healers- while they are welcome, they should have been there from the start.

Anti synergy job design and kits that work against encounter design. The healer jobs are an embarrassment.

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

Most healers have changed to dps (the only role that got good treatment, at least until 6.1) or left the game. More would leave but there's just nowhere to go atm since the mmo market is in such a bad state.

The healer exodus was in 5.0. A lot of healers have not returned in 6.0 because its unchanged from 5.0. The only difference is there's a few more dps players than usual that play sage for fast queues. No healer worth their masses of salt was fooled by sage.
Thats why SE is getting no points for the whm buffs to a lot of healers- while they are welcome, they should have been there from the start.

Anti synergy job design and kits that work against encounter design. The healer jobs are an embarrassment.

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I think 5.0 ruined our jobs for alot of people. I can only hope there's an MMO that emerges from this catastrophe and I can finally pack my things and put my money where my mouth is. Until then.. let's hope they have a change of heart.

Honestly though.. if you told me all of this was going to happen before ShB, I would have never believed you. That was a slap in the face for me when my DRK lost 50% of their toolkit.

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Originally Posted by Teno

You mean just like a tank who pops no cd or a dps lower than a healer ? Can't blame stances being bad due to players being bad. Thing is, it's hard to distinguish a bad healer now, there's not much to fail.

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I'd figure if you played healer back then you would understand how Cleric Stance was a problem for both kits and healing in general. It needlessly complicated healing and was better relegated as it was to a self-buff in Stormblood. Not saying we need to make things idiot-proof, but we don't need to rollback to the stone age. All we need really is a one or two buttons that tie into each other and we should be good as long as it's functional with the rest of Healer kits.

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Originally Posted by MintnHoney

A Hrothgar healer for a full year.
I'd be ok with that.

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Oh yes that sounds like a suitable punishment.

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Originally Posted by Manofpassion

Unironically, I would love that. I always love playing support classes in games, managing buffs and the like. If we can bring back old sb astro into the support role, with a cool dps rotation, I would love to give that a try. I have honestly hoped for a support role for a long time, as it is right now, if you want a buff placed playstyle, you only have bard/dancer after the ninja change. Buff diversity would be very welcome imo.

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I'd be cool with that. More unique buffs too like the elemental system from Eureka with enemies having weaknesses and necessary buffs to use to bring them down.

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Originally Posted by Floortank

Most of the healers I get in regular content are utterly terrible.

They let people die, cause wipes, fail to heal, don't know how to use their buttons, and the whole group grinds to a halt.

It's harder to carry over bad healers than it is anyone else.

So making the healer role harder than it already is will cause people to quit the game because they keep having terrible experiences due to bad healers.

You may think the kit is boring, but it's that way to keep it easy. And as easy as it is, it's still too hard for most healers to use it correctly.

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The thing is, if the healer is struggling to keep players alive, its probably not the healers fault, but yours instead.

Healers are expected to fix everyone elses mistakes, if dps fails to avoid damage, its the healers problem. If tank takes all the hits for lolz the healer needs to wipe up after them. So if the healer makes a mistake, everyone says its the healer's fault. Even though its really the fault of the person who took the damage to begin with.

This needs to happen so bumping to the front.

Also force him to Fantastia from Lala to Hrothgar and cut his ears off.

Figured I'd give this thread a bump to give a reminder to people that Healers are not fun.

Also, been looking into even the PvP side of things: It seems healers are a little more fun to play on that side because they have more damage buttons.

Why can't this be put into a PvE sense with some balance tweaks for overperformance?

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Figured I'd give this thread a bump to give a reminder to people that Healers are not fun.

Also, been looking into even the PvP side of things: It seems healers are a little more fun to play on that side because they have more damage buttons.

Why can't this be put into a PvE sense with some balance tweaks for overperformance?

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It's not even that we have more damage buttons, it's that we have more interactivity with all of our buttons. Imagine being able to make decisions on how and when you should best use your kit?
Never have I, a healer, known such bounty in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Floortank

Most of the healers I get in regular content are utterly terrible.

They let people die, cause wipes, fail to heal, don't know how to use their buttons, and the whole group grinds to a halt.

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DF is full of tanks who wouldn't know a defensive CD if it bit them in the ass, and DPSers who couldn't DPS their way out of a paper bag...with directions on the inside. Yet, those two roles are allowed to have DPS rotations beyond 21111111 spam.

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Originally Posted by Floortank

It's harder to carry over bad healers than it is anyone else.

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LOLnope. You can run current content, except for P3S and P4S, without healers at all. If a WAR can solo P1N, how necessary can healers be in that fight, really? If content can be cleared when the healers don't even exist, how hard can it possibly be to clear that same content when the healers are merely bad?

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Originally Posted by Floortank

So making the healer role harder than it already is will cause people to quit the game because they keep having terrible experiences due to bad healers.

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As opposed to the current direction, which is causing skilled healers to quit the game, or at least the role?

Also, you and everybody else recycling this argument ignore the fact that if healing becomes challenging again, good players will simply swap over to the now-interesting healing role and displace the bad players. Healing was more demanding in ARR and HW than it is today, and content still got cleared, and lil' baby noobs were able to pick up the role just fine. Go run min-ilvl Vault sometime and see what I mean.

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Originally Posted by Floortank

You may think the kit is boring, but it's that way to keep it easy. And as easy as it is, it's still too hard for most healers to use it correctly.

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This would be the "healing has to be boring because healers are all glue-huffing five-year-olds" talking point.

Why does making the healing half of the kit easy to use somehow preclude making the damage half of the kit complex and rewarding to use? If your concern is genuinely about lil' baby noobs not being able to heal because it's too hard (spoiler alert: it isn't), then you shouldn't care at all how complex the DPS half of the kit is. Sylphie can ignore ten DPS buttons just as easily as she ignores two.

No, the real reason people oppose expanding healer DPS kits is because they genuinely believe that healers are, and ought to be, second-class citizens who exist solely to let the DPS and tank players have fun. That skilled healers should not be rewarded for playing well, but punished with boredom, lest a skill gap appear and demonstrate just how badly Sylphie is playing.

/signed but ONLY if he has to level that healer *from level 1* no skipping to 90 for him.

Monthly reminder that Healers are still in a bad spot.

The petition is still out there for people to contribute to discussion. If Yoshida will play WHM for an entire patch and learn how to play it at a high level like he does BLM, then perhaps he'll find out how we feel.

I feel they should make healers heals but gaining dps on it. the lilly system is great exemple of it. They just need to make it same ish on other job but with different flavor.

At this point he probably never gonna do it, neither fantasia to hrothgar...

I like the healing aspect of the healers fine enough. They do need to change how they DPS desperately. My hand hurts from slapping the ground so much on my SCH.

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Originally Posted by Renalt

I like the healing aspect of the healers fine enough. They do need to change how they DPS desperately. My hand hurts from slapping the ground so much on my SCH.

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In my eyes there are two ways to make the role more enjoyable

1) Increase outgoing damage in content such that you need to heal more. Or reduce potency of oGCD heals to achieve a similar effect.

2) Leave healing as is and add more DPS buttons. MAYBE remove a couple healing oGCDs to allow more button space for DPS skills. (while adjusting potency of those remaining)

They really don't want to stress new healers so 2 is the only realistic option. Also (1) wouldn't do anything for old content.

I think removing certain healing actions to reduce button bloat and adding new dps skills in place of it is the proper thing to do. As it is now healers don’t want to hard cast heals only oGCD, so that we can dps more and we need more dps skills. It doesn’t have to even be many but like two skills to change the 11111111111211111111 press oGCD 11111111112111111111

FIX HEALS
FIX AST
FIX SAM

And fix everything else in your friggin' game like Viera and Roth or
admit all your time is on FF16 and not 14, thx Yoshi Peeee.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

In my eyes there are two ways to make the role more enjoyable

1) Increase outgoing damage in content such that you need to heal more. Or reduce potency of oGCD heals to achieve a similar effect.

2) Leave healing as is and add more DPS buttons. MAYBE remove a couple healing oGCDs to allow more button space for DPS skills. (while adjusting potency of those remaining)

They really don't want to stress new healers so 2 is the only realistic option. Also (1) wouldn't do anything for old content.

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1 has been ask for to death and their response is "go play Ultimate". But really I hate when people ask for healers to have tools taken away for the sake of more GCD healing–the name of the game is heal smarter, not harder. The combat design is built around GCDs that aren't related to damage, no matter what you're going to be casting DPS spam.

Moreover raising the damage output is done nothing but cause more wipes across the board. Unless every raidwide takes you down to 1 HP every time, GCD healing remains to be exclusively minimal to none.

Plus, GCD healing spam is incredibly as boring as DPS spam. And really, healers can not built at all for constant GCD healing, their MP economy would collapse very fast with AST being the only one to keep up. That right there proves the devs lean into oGCD healing without admitting it.

You can throw so much mechanic vomit as you want, but at the end of the day, GCD healing will never been optimal over a well-placed oGCD.

2 is more realistic but that would mean that the devs would have to start a war with healbots purists constantly so they'll probably just leave it braindead as usual.

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

1 has been ask for to death and their response is "go play Ultimate". But really I hate when people ask for healers to have tools taken away for the sake of more GCD healing–the name of the game is heal smarter, not harder. The combat design is built around GCDs that aren't related to damage, no matter what you're going to be casting DPS spam.

Moreover raising the damage output is done nothing but cause more wipes across the board. Unless every raidwide takes you down to 1 HP every time, GCD healing remains to be exclusively minimal to none.

Plus, GCD healing spam is incredibly as boring as DPS spam. And really, healers can not built at all for constant GCD healing, their MP economy would collapse very fast with AST being the only one to keep up. That right there proves the devs lean into oGCD healing without admitting it.

You can throw so much mechanic vomit as you want, but at the end of the day, GCD healing will never been optimal over a well-placed oGCD.

2 is more realistic but that would mean that the devs would have to start a war with healbots purists constantly so they'll probably just leave it braindead as usual.

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The beauty of 2 is it doesn't affect the gameplay of healbot purists at all, since it adds stuff to the healer kits they would not touch in the first place, meaning nothing really changes for them.

I like to think they're on to something with Sage. It has an ability to heal AS it does damage, and several options to DPS with, but no real rotation of sorts, so it's easy to stop DPS to focus on heals when needed. It's also fairly streamlined.

I would like to see a lot less abilities on, say, WHM, and just combine same-similar abilities. Like I'd drop Benediction (full HP) and just turn it into 2 charges of Tetraggamuffin, for a total of 3 or whatever charges you can spam if needed.

Also, I'd get rid of Cure 3 entirely, and just get rid of Cure 1 (and have it turn into Cure 2 when that level is hit).

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

The beauty of 2 is it doesn't affect the gameplay of healbot purists at all, since it adds stuff to the healer kits they would not touch in the first place, meaning nothing really changes for them.

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That’s the ideal scenario, until the Sylphies bangs your front door screeching:”BuT tHeN pEoPlE w!Ll YeLl At Me FoR nOt DpSiNg!! I’m GoOd At HeAlInG & yOu CaN’t LeT mE dO tHoSe OtHeR tHiNgS!!!”

For some reason they are so allergic to the mention of dps buttons that they think people will expect them to be dpsing more…

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Originally Posted by kaynide

I like to think they're on to something with Sage. It has an ability to heal AS it does damage, and several options to DPS with, but no real rotation of sorts, so it's easy to stop DPS to focus on heals when needed. It's also fairly streamlined.

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Sage is just Dosis, DoT and Phlegma. You barely use Toxicon and Pneuma is a heal. WHM has more dps variety than Sage now that Misery fires off once a minute. Healing while you do damage is simply turning on Kardia and forgetting about it.

Sage was advertised as the healer to choose if you want more dps buttons and it turned out to be exactly the same as the others.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Sage is just Dosis, DoT and Phlegma. You barely use Toxicon and Pneuma is a heal. WHM has more dps variety than Sage now that Misery fires off once a minute. Healing while you do damage is simply turning on Kardia and forgetting about it.

Sage was advertised as the healer to choose if you want more dps buttons and it turned out to be exactly the same as the others.

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It might ultimately be similar in DPS numbers or something, but it's a disservice to say it's "Exactly the same" when you have the mobility of a bard or dancer.



WHM has a stupidly long cast time in Holy, and a time-gate resource in lillies to get the blood-lily,
Sage has both Toxicon via shields (kinda like earning the blood lily), and Phlegma which just auto-recharges.

With the exception of plain Diosis, the entire kit can be done without stopping to cast anything.

With planning, you could expend 2 uses of Phlegma (510 potency, 170 healing) and 4 uses Toxicon (330 potency, 170 healing) in 6 GCDs (15ish seconds base time), as opposed to 3 Holy casts (also 15ish seconds base time at 150 potency each, also gives mobs Stun resistance; that's it).

It's not that these DPS are replacing heals, it's that they're essentially giving me Regen as long as I do DPS without needing to keep a regen spell on, and not requiring me to stand still unless there's some kind of emergency and I actually need to use Diagnosis.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

snip

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(I'm gonna get tired of sharing the same images all the time...)
Compare this:

https://i.gyazo.com/3361c571a1f420a7...35bdbb4915.png

vs

https://i.gyazo.com/e326e474b21ec1c4...206433f736.png

6.0 Whm

Rn the main difference is that Whm would use 3 lilies and 1 missery every minute but aside that they're over 70% of the time the exact same job and over 90% if we only consider GCDs

Healing between the 2 is not AS copy paste but its also because they're a shield healer vs a regen healer, that argument however goes down as soon as we bring Sch to the table which has almost 1 equivalent tool for everything Sge does before lv90 to the point Sage could be considered a soft rework of Sch.

If we focus on Dps actions they're basically the same job, standard ST nuke, standard AoE nuke, dot, a dps spell tied to heals which may or may not be good and a 45s dps gain cd, thats all they have for a game where they spend over 70% of the time using them.

I mean, sure, if you're only doing notes on GCDs and vs 1 target in boss raids/endgame, sure. But, most of my use is in dungeons/fates where AoE and mobility is much more important and should factor in. WHM's AoE is aweful compared to SGE.

So, while they SHOULD be the same numbers in general, the way that damage happens is quite different. The statement that it is identical to other healers I stand by being incorrect, and not a good way to describe the job to someone looking to play it. It's just simply not "same as whm".

The chart doesn't take into account Sage's mobility, nor the fact that most of Sage's abilities are instant cast, which offers a very different play experience.

And again, using cast time and recast times, you can get a 6-action AoE burst in the same amount of time you could 3 holy casts. And be running like an idiot while doing it.

Sage doesn't have the mobility of a bard or dancer, no way in hell lol, or at least not in the FFXIV I play. It even feels more restrictive since you have to build addersting during downtime otherwise you lose big dps, so it's really not the same at all. In fact, WHM feels more mobile since the recent Misery change and it being dps "neutral".

Plus, the dash is on a super long CD that doesn't even get full uptime because it doesn't work like that. And mobility is a non issue in dungeons and fates since you could lose half your GCDs moving around and it wouldn't matter.

Now, if Toxikon was to be oGCD and you could spam diagnosis on the move that'd be something else.

When I first realize Holy's AoE is 8y in radius, suddenly all those 'mobilities' becomes unneeded, at least on WHMs. With that large radius I can stand right on the tip of generic dungeon pulls' AoEs to slidecast to safety when needed and still hit every pack with every Holy casts.

If they make those AoEs really threatening to me, then I guess I'll take the extra mobility. But that too, they're not even threatening most of times.

Nothing like their now abundant Rapture/Solace can fix that will lead to eventual Misery cast. Benison, the Asylum & Lilybell that you just dropped, and (to lesser extent) Assize----all these will just heal you up even if you do take those AoE damage. I've rarely made effort to move out of wall pulls AoE thanks to all of these. To facilitate this sometimes I even Regen'ed myself before starting the spam but even this is an excess majority of times.

If we're discussing healer gameplay in dungeons, return Miasma and Bane, Yoshida. I want to press more than one button like the other healers do. D:<

Here's a hot take:

A lot of the player base would get an enhanced DPS rotation for healers and either:

A) Die more frequently and complain
B) End up letting other people die more then complain
C) Not even do the rotation properly and complain because it is hard to do it if you have to heal dumb players
D) Not even DPS, since there is a large number of players that literally just sit there not casting a single DPS ability right now

Yall would get one and then immediately hate it.

https://files.catbox.moe/kkhiur.jpg

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

Here's a hot take:

A lot of the player base would get an enhanced DPS rotation for healers and either:

A) Die more frequently and complain
B) End up letting other people die more then complain
C) Not even do the rotation properly and complain because it is hard to do it if you have to heal dumb players
D) Not even DPS, since there is a large number of players that literally just sit there not casting a single DPS ability right now

Yall would get one and then immediately hate it.

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If a healer doesn't know how to properly handle dpsing and healing they should be dpsing less and healing more until they do.

AKA: Learn to play their job like everyone else does.

Learning when to DPS and when to heal is part of the healing job and always has been. The problem is that when you get decent to good at it you're pressing the same button over and over. For the people who are decent to good we shouldn't be limited in our dps options because of people who are new or bad. I don't see Continuation on GNB being axed. Healers can have more dps buttons.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

If a healer doesn't know how to properly handle dpsing and healing they should be dpsing less and healing more until they do.

AKA: Learn to play their job like everyone else does.

Learning when to DPS and when to heal is part of the healing job and always has been. The problem is that when you get decent to good at it you're pressing the same button over and over. For the people who are decent to good we shouldn't be limited in our dps options because of people who are new or bad. I don't see Continuation on GNB being axed. Healers can have more dps buttons.

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Again, I said a lot of the player base i.e. the playerbase that doesn't step into hard content which I should have clarified. Savage/Ultimate healers won't have an issue with it for sure, but the remainder of the playerbase? The player base that don't understand when AoE rotations will overtake single target damage based on the number of targets? The part of playerbase who don't understand how mitigation works and will pop mitigation at like 20% and then not understand why they still died? The portion of the melee playerbase that fail to hit positionals or use true north? Shield healers that put their shields on the party after damage goes out?

If anything, Damage should be significantly more deadly in normal content and damage should be constant in savage (think the damage ticks that go out during the entirety of the add phase of P3s) so healer should have to use their entire toolkit properly.

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

Here's a hot take:

A lot of the player base would get an enhanced DPS rotation for healers and either:

A) Die more frequently and complain
B) End up letting other people die more then complain
C) Not even do the rotation properly and complain because it is hard to do it if you have to heal dumb players
D) Not even DPS, since there is a large number of players that literally just sit there not casting a single DPS ability right now

Yall would get one and then immediately hate it.

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Oh no, anyway.

We have a lot of tanks that don't use mitigation and plenty of DPS players that seemingly do their rotation with their eyes closed after having shuffled their hotbars around. I'm sure we can survive with healers having a skill floor and a skill ceiling too.